The Syndicate

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:14 pm shooting zack also makes me look wolfier

really surprised that didnt happen

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:30 pm literally ctrl f my posts and search dya good god nutella

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:30 pm visor, did you feel like dya was trying to appeal to you a lot?

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:33 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:30 pm visor, did you feel like dya was trying to appeal to you a lot?

no. (i mean maybe with a few of their posts but i didnt see them LOL)

i felt like dya p much completely ignored me this game because they knew interacting with me was a terrible idea when i wolfread them

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:32 pm i think my thing with your dya stuff is like.... in a way it mirrors my own a lot, in that we were both pushing them pretty hard all game but had moments of doubt

but if you were to graph it, my moments of doubt were more frequent but softer, while yours was a sharp 180 and part of me wonders if that extreme-ness was performative

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:36 pm

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:33 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:30 pm visor, did you feel like dya was trying to appeal to you a lot?

no. (i mean maybe with a few of their posts but i didnt see them LOL)

i felt like dya p much completely ignored me this game because they knew interacting with me was a terrible idea when i wolfread them

hm, interesting

i guess they didn't directly interact with you a ton but tended to put you as town lean in lists and stuff (after null-ing you d1), and maybe the other things i'm thinking about are more indicative of tmi

but they didn't hesitate to snap and argue with me when i was hard pushing them, so why didn't they do the same to you?

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:37 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:32 pm i think my thing with your dya stuff is like.... in a way it mirrors my own a lot, in that we were both pushing them pretty hard all game but had moments of doubt

but if you were to graph it, my moments of doubt were more frequent but softer, while yours was a sharp 180 and part of me wonders if that extreme-ness was performative

see this is a reasonable query i think

i can def be performative as a wolf but the question is: did i need to be performative?

what was the purpose of me being performative there. i was already treated as lock clear by everyone in the game. all its done is increased doubt on my slot, and i didnt need that to survive as i could kill you and zack and people arent going to go well obv nl is still alive he has to be a wolf because people also v read both you and zack

frankly, if im a wolf the game is v close to a win if i just ride the dya credit train to glory

and i dont do unncessary shit like that at this stage of the game, i am a clinical wolf, i do the most i can with the smallest amount of effort lol. theres no way i would play it up for no gain. there has to be an endgame to everything i do as a wolf and this has zero purpose given my state in thread. if i was being wolfread at the time, i think you being worried over this would be more fair cause i could do that to try and appeal to absuirdity

but i was lock clear and treated as such so...

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:40 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:36 pm

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:33 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:30 pm visor, did you feel like dya was trying to appeal to you a lot?

no. (i mean maybe with a few of their posts but i didnt see them LOL)

i felt like dya p much completely ignored me this game because they knew interacting with me was a terrible idea when i wolfread them

hm, interesting

i guess they didn't directly interact with you a ton but tended to put you as town lean in lists and stuff (after null-ing you d1), and maybe the other things i'm thinking about are more indicative of tmi

but they didn't hesitate to snap and argue with me when i was hard pushing them, so why didn't they do the same to you?

frankly i think part of it was we just werent in the thread at the same times. i remember interacting with dya maybe twice this game

but wolves treat people differently for a myriad of reasons. maybe she thought she could convince you? not sure it matters.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:41 pm eh, i wouldnt say you were really considered lock clear

and i think my fear is exactly that you did something that you could say was "suboptimal" or whatever when idk if it even was, wifom etc etc

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:53 pm talk about this grasslands game a bit

i skimmed a bit of it a while ago but what happened

outed wolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:58 pm so what do you think are the similarities and differences from that game to this game in terms of how she treated her wolfbros

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 1:13 am

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 12:32 am what do you think of dya spf, specifically (not like you agree with arguments others make, whats your interpretation.thoughts on their posts)

i feel like dyachei came into this game with pre-packaged stances, and has spent the entirety of today reiterating them. their reads are reasonable and they come from a perspective that is logical for a villager to have - i just feel like something is missing wrt their reads developing and changing in a fluid way. dyachei's strongest townread is on tangygrowth, a read that was initially just described as tangy being "pure", and read that was later expanded upon to include the reasoning of: "her wallpost contained a lot of detail that wolves wouldn't think to write"

and like, yes, i agree that tangy is towny, but i don't feel like dyachei went on a ~journey~ to figure tangy out. i don't feel like dyachei went on a ~journey~ to figure alison out. their reads just kind of pop into existence, and i can't find any "turning points" in their ISO for when a read might have developed more strongly or more confidently. the surface level stuff is there, and it definitely looks good, but i just don't feel like the internal thought processes that villagers tend to have are reflected in dyachei's reads so far. they feel much more point A to point B to me

i've been struggling w/my read on dyachei because i greatly dislike the idea of pushing on them when theyre a villager, and i mindmelded with them earlier about c4 being villagery, but i've been getting pinged by them for a little while now

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 9:23 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 9:15 pm like why would my read on alison change because what I thought yesterday actually happened spf

well, if you're a villager, then it's logical that your read on alison would stay the same coming into today. the issue isn't that your read on alison is staying the same - it's just that i don't get the sense that your reads are evolving in Real Time - it's making me wonder if you're a wolf that's sticking to the same couple of reads because it's a lot more difficult to fake genuine solving as a wolf in a playerlist like this. i also feel that some of your points about alison are questionable (like the point about alison knowing that you were calling gavial anti-town - why do you assume that alison was informed by her partners that you called gavial that, instead of assuming that alison was just catching up with the thread in an unusual manner? it seems to me like you're interpreting that action through the lens of alison already being a wolf, instead of evaluating it neutrally)

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 2:40 am

sunbae wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 2:30 am SPF,

I posted a tiered breakdown of where my head is at. Let's talk about my "hopefully 0 wolf" tier: Outed Wolf, Arete, and Dya. I have spent posts on each of the three today explaining exactly why I think their approach or specific interactions was significantly more likely to come from town than wolf. Do you have any specific issues with those reasons?

I have grouped a poe together which I'm hoping contains at least two wolves: Chloe, Dsyl, Nutella, Marl, and Alison. I have spent many posts going back and forth on both Marl and Alison this game. Once I decided Dya was a villager I moved Alison down because I trust Dya to be right on these types of reads. I talked about Marl quite a bit - including my experience with them and how this differs - which was understood by Marl and explained as just being in a different part of their cycle. I also pointed out specifically the posts of Nutella that gave me large amounts of concern - which Nutella also said was understandable from my point of view and has no problems with it. Why do you have an issue with my take on the game state if the people I am suspicious of understand that suspicion from my pov?

As for my KZA comment, I didn't ask to be cleared off of it. I just rolled in and said "hey based on bringing up KZA in response to another wagon we could go to do I have the ability to just chill for most of the day without yall getting paranoid on me". The answer it seems, is no unfortunately. That's the game though, it's fine.

I am well aware my reads list is different from everyone elses. I feel pretty good about it though? I might not have it 100% locked down but I think It's a good starting point.

honestly? i do have some mild concern/confusion about your reasoning for townreading dya. you state on reason number one of this post: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 08#p801608 that dyachei would never make this post: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 91#p799591, but i don't really understand why. there is nothing about that post that moves me in either direction and i'm curious why you think that specific post is out of dyachei's wolfrange

i dont really agree that the second point is clearing for dyachei either - it feels like the argument can be summed up as: "dyachei's suspicion on alison grew incrementally as d1 went on, and it reflects the way that dyachei pushes on people as a villager", and that's true, i guess, but why is it impossible for dyachei to have a progression like that as a wolf? you can argue that dyachei's progression on alison was fluid/incremental enough to be villager indicative, but i struggle to understand how you come out with the result of: "i am confident that dyachei is town" based on that

if you've explained why you feel these posts are villager indicative beyond the post i just linked, then mb, but that seems to be your main reasoning for townreading dyachei, yeah?

i'm not saying that dyachei can't be a villager - your conviction actually makes me more doubtful of my own read on them and has been a factor in my decision to cast a wide net w/my solving today in the case that i've been misreading them, but i just don't really understand the train of thought in your reasoning for tr'ing them

i do actually kinda townread this response from you but i dont know if i know why. there's a sharpness to the tone here that just feels villagery i guess

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 3:17 am @sunbae -

you are definitely right that i feel good about you in the moment whenever we interact and then circle back around to feeling paranoid about you again a couple of hours later - i think it's because most of the reasons that i have to townread you are based on a feeling, you know? like, it's hard for me to use the logic of: "sunbae feels really genuine and really passionate" as a foundation for any of my reads, especially when you presumably have a reputation for being an amazing wolf, but i DO feel that you're villagery in the moment. i feel it right now

wrt to dya's post toward gavial, i disagree in the sense that as you pointed out, dyachei was clearly irritated at that stage of the game because of them being told how to play. i can only speak for myself, but if i'm in a bad/grumpy mood and i'm feeling really irritated, then there's a chance that i'm gonna lash out at whoever says something that rubs me the wrong way regardless of my own alignment. anger and irritation can come out in indiscriminate ways regardless of alignment, and i just disagree with you on a fundamental level that it's possible to get alignment indicative information out of irritation like that

i'm not there with you on dyachei's progression on alison being town indicative for them, but i'll make a note to take another look at it to see if i can see what you're seeing. like i said, i'm open to considering worlds where dyachei is a villager, i suppose i just haven't seen anything that has pushed me to that place

the most villagery thing about nutella, meta aside, is the way that she zeroed in on kza from the very beginning of the game, and the way that kza tried to play around her. nutella had lots of experience w/kza and immediately noticed that something was "off", and kza effectively ignored her concerns while just lazily brushing off nutella as a villager. nutella continued to dig in her heels throughout the day with her wolfread on kza, and i think the way that she consistently brought attention to it and brought it up before p much anyone else did deserves some level of towncred. i can see your concern about her posts at the EOD but i feel about equally as confident that nutella is a villager that you do that dyachei is a villager

there's more that i want to say but my brain is so tired and i need to call it a night

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:31 pm

Arete wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:07 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:14 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 12:32 pm

Vulgard wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 12:31 pm I call Alison a villager, then she re-enters the thread and does this.

yeah alison isn't a villager

like this doesn't ever come from a wolf pushing town does it



lol me



i probably owe you numerous apologies dya

oh right also I forgot to say this earlier but this is like

the easiest thing ever to fake

like I don't even have a strong wolfgame but I am capable of confidently stating a villager is a wolf as scum

if this is out of Dya's wolfrange then sure, I'll listen, but I would find it surprising on priors if it were

yeah uh....i was really baffled by that post from nutella too. the post that dyachei made there is 100% within the wolfrange of anyone who has played more than one game of mafia, even completely independent of my read on dyachei. if alison is a wolf then i get it more, i guess

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 6:07 pm that makes two days in a row where I ended the day with dyachei as one of my strongest suspects, only to not feel confident to push the momentum in the direction of their chop

im done with that. i want dya gone today and if they're a villager then I take responsibility for it

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 10:45 pm i take no issue w/dya being inactive and i trust that they are genuinely busy regardless of their alignment. i feel that their opening posts today are wolfy because they lack the perspective of a villager that just incorrectly tunneled on another villager for 2 days straight - it felt to me like they were more interested in figuring out who to set their sights on next instead of re-evaluating the game as a whole and figuring out where to go from there. there is a lack of general consideration and a lack of holistic thinking in dyachei's posts that make me feel like they're a wolf above all else. of course, i am open to changing my mind if they start towntelling, but as things stand, i think that they're just a wolf

i have some other stuff to say, but it can wait. i probably won't be posting for the rest of the night but feel free to @ me if needed

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 5:29 am cool

i wanna chop dyachei and go from there

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:11 pm ^this is not how i talk about my partner in any world

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 pm the thing that concerns me the most about the arete/dya stuff is that arete didn't really mention dya much at all until they became the center of conversation, and i don't really see a clear thought process for how arete's read on dya shifted as the game went on

arete voted for dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 03#p803603, but all of arete's thoughts about dya up until that point were: "null/no stance". i don't understand why arete felt inclined to vote someone that they presumably didn't scumread just to get them to answer a question faster - that doesn't really feel like arete's style as a villager from what i've observed from them

i have a similar issue w/this post https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 07#p803607 - arete says that amy being tracker doesn't influence their read on dya even though their read on dya was totally non-existent up until this point. if this post is implying that arete was wolfreading dya, then where did the wolfread on dya come from? they seemed perfectly neutral about them in every post leading up to this point

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 24#p804124 - this post from dya's side of things is really weird too - dya accuses arete of "trying to find reasons to keep them as a wolf", but arete literally did not explicitly wolfread dyachei at any point. their vote on them wasn't even a wolfread, presumably. so why does dya react like that?

arete's progression on dya gets even more confusing when they state a reason to townread dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 68#p804868, and then ends up voting them again on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 48#p809148 because of their read on vulgard being wolfy "in hindsight"

i dont really feel like arete authentically tried to figure out dyachei's alignment from an uninformed perspective at any point in this game - their wolfread on dya appeared and disappeared out of nowhere, and their overall read on dya seemed to fluctuate with the thread consensus

im still exploring and thinking things over, but i wanted to get these concerns out of the way now

Arete wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 8:17 pm the wording things Dizzy just pointed out are NAI at worst

like I am not Vulgard and he can correct me if I'm wrong but the thing about Dya repping a scumread is just ... him not endorsing the position that Dya believes it, rather than him endorsing the position that Dya doesn't believe it

and the defensive attitude post is like 'Dya has a defensive attitude [which would normally be wolfy] but they've done it before as town, so it could be NAI,' it has an implicitly encoded assumption that a defensive attitude is wolfy rather than an implicit assumption that Dya is a wolf

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 7:58 pm (someone please tell me if I'm misreading this and Dya secretly loves posting cat pictures as town but this feels like it has a lot of Arete-lolcatting-in-FoL-28 energy)

I guess Vul is the only one who actually knows what that means but

yeah

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:14 pm Dya choosing now to lolcat makes me vaguely scared that they're trying to save wolf!Vulgard but I really really don't want to believe that's true

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:17 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:15 pm

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:14 pm Dya choosing now to lolcat makes me vaguely scared that they're trying to save wolf!Vulgard but I really really don't want to believe that's true

im not lolcatting though

okay

do you have, like, new reads, or anything else that might indicate that you are in fact a villager, and not a wolf who is giving up

who do you want to kill today

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:19 pm

Syn wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:17 pm why would dya be giving up even if vulgard is a wolf and they're partners

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was trying to figure out earlier if they were posting cat pictures as a brief break or something or if they were actually just a given up wolf but the fact that they've kept doing it makes me think the latter

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:38 pm the benefit to a Dya/Vul/X wolfteam of having Dya openwolf here is that if Dya gets voted out Vul would 100 percent be able to kill Sunbae, since the jailkeeper can't target consecutively.

but that requires that Vul be a wolf and I don't want to believe that.

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 10:38 pm

dyachei wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:42 pm

Arete wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 8:38 pm the benefit to a Dya/Vul/X wolfteam of having Dya openwolf here is that if Dya gets voted out Vul would 100 percent be able to kill Sunbae, since the jailkeeper can't target consecutively.

but that requires that Vul be a wolf and I don't want to believe that.

im not openwolfing though. or wolfing at all

tell me, what benefit do you see to the rest of the day without knowing vulgard's flip?

and if you think the way you do, why are you voting me? isn't that what I supposedly want?

me: 'Dya is posting cat pics. are they lolcatting?'

me: 'ok they said they weren't lolcatting but they also kept it up, I think they're lolcatting and just messing with me'

me: 'sweet, free wolf, I'm going to vote them'

me: 'why are they lolcatting though??? it doesn't make sense???? like a villager is already dying, if they want to lolcat they might as well do it tomorrow'

me: 'oh no. if Vul is scum then it actually makes sense. aa.'

Arete wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:11 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:09 am

Arete wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:38 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:36 am

Arete wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:33 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:38 am c4, dya and KZA are in the "no impressions made" club and I would like them to play the game. I do not townread c4 for a carefully voiced scumread (?) on SPF. That's in any average wolf's wolfrange and I think SPF is too quick to clear them regardless of alignment.

dya and KZA just haven't talked about the game much yet. Dya got offended based on a single accusation if I read that correctly, and KZA 5-posted and dipped.

since I feel like no one actually reads my wallposts I'm just going to highlight this post as super important if Vul flips wolf (which, to be clear, I still don't think he will! just. acknowledging the possibility.)

like I feel like I've seen a lot of ambient 'the team is probably just Vul/c4/Dya' floating around and ... no, that's not a thing.

meow

uh

what does this post mean

I'm katze

katze in what way

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:26 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 pm the thing that concerns me the most about the arete/dya stuff is that arete didn't really mention dya much at all until they became the center of conversation, and i don't really see a clear thought process for how arete's read on dya shifted as the game went on

arete voted for dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 03#p803603, but all of arete's thoughts about dya up until that point were: "null/no stance". i don't understand why arete felt inclined to vote someone that they presumably didn't scumread just to get them to answer a question faster - that doesn't really feel like arete's style as a villager from what i've observed from them

i have a similar issue w/this post https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 07#p803607 - arete says that amy being tracker doesn't influence their read on dya even though their read on dya was totally non-existent up until this point. if this post is implying that arete was wolfreading dya, then where did the wolfread on dya come from? they seemed perfectly neutral about them in every post leading up to this point

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 24#p804124 - this post from dya's side of things is really weird too - dya accuses arete of "trying to find reasons to keep them as a wolf", but arete literally did not explicitly wolfread dyachei at any point. their vote on them wasn't even a wolfread, presumably. so why does dya react like that?

arete's progression on dya gets even more confusing when they state a reason to townread dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 68#p804868, and then ends up voting them again on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 48#p809148 because of their read on vulgard being wolfy "in hindsight"

i dont really feel like arete authentically tried to figure out dyachei's alignment from an uninformed perspective at any point in this game - their wolfread on dya appeared and disappeared out of nowhere, and their overall read on dya seemed to fluctuate with the thread consensus

im still exploring and thinking things over, but i wanted to get these concerns out of the way now

there were some moments where dya interrogated/question dya that i kinda liked, but i also don't feel like it's outside of the range of any decent wolf. my main reluctance about arete is that they have just felt really really villagery on a tonal level even though i have nothing to substantiate that with on a logical level (which is exactly how i felt about vulgard lol)

hmm i had been looking at your summary of dya interactions from earlier and thought i saw some good pokes from arete in there

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:31 pm outed wolf's progression on dya was far better than i remembered. i was concerned about outed wolf coming into today because i most closely associate him with playing a big role in centering the conversation around alison/amy/dya while never directly gunning for dyachei between those three. but looking further, visor zero'd in on dya almost immediately and brought their name up as a potential wolf within pages of the game starting. i can see visor realistically hardbussing as a wolf, but if he was going to, i'm not sure it's a push that he would make so early and so aggressively. i take minor issue with the fact that he never really tried (from what i can tell) to convince other people that dya was a wolf, and his confidence in general has felt out of character to me, but i do think that outed wolf's interactions w/dya point to them being less likely teamed than not

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 pm the thing that concerns me the most about the arete/dya stuff is that arete didn't really mention dya much at all until they became the center of conversation, and i don't really see a clear thought process for how arete's read on dya shifted as the game went on

arete voted for dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 03#p803603, but all of arete's thoughts about dya up until that point were: "null/no stance". i don't understand why arete felt inclined to vote someone that they presumably didn't scumread just to get them to answer a question faster - that doesn't really feel like arete's style as a villager from what i've observed from them

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 pm i have a similar issue w/this post https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 07#p803607 - arete says that amy being tracker doesn't influence their read on dya even though their read on dya was totally non-existent up until this point. if this post is implying that arete was wolfreading dya, then where did the wolfread on dya come from? they seemed perfectly neutral about them in every post leading up to this point

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 24#p804124 - this post from dya's side of things is really weird too - dya accuses arete of "trying to find reasons to keep them as a wolf", but arete literally did not explicitly wolfread dyachei at any point. their vote on them wasn't even a wolfread, presumably. so why does dya react like that?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:22 pm
arete's progression on dya gets even more confusing when they state a reason to townread dya on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 68#p804868, and then ends up voting them again on https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 48#p809148 because of their read on vulgard being wolfy "in hindsight"

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:10 am imnot super convicned its spf

walk me through it

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:02 pm I don't see where to go other than [VOTE: Dyslexicon] aubergine
This will probably start another messy argument that I really shouldn't be starting rn