I am also a user of the Sporcle.nijuukyugou wrote:Catching up...ugh. I knew I shouldn't have left it to tonight, but I wanted to read Harry Potter and play Sporcle instead last night :PElohcin wrote:I'm voting for Chris today. Niju, I see you haven't voted yet...what are your thoughts?
Dr. Who Mafia - Night 12
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Just to be clear, what form of badiness do you think I am Ninju?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
YESSSSSSS God I think I have an addiction but not a bad enough one to care because I'm a beast at geography nowMetalmarsh89 wrote:I am also a user of the Sporcle.nijuukyugou wrote:Catching up...ugh. I knew I shouldn't have left it to tonight, but I wanted to read Harry Potter and play Sporcle instead last night :PElohcin wrote:I'm voting for Chris today. Niju, I see you haven't voted yet...what are your thoughts?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
And MM is not a threat. I never said not to lynch him, but he's been exposed. No one will believe him. We see him right there, and he'll be there until we lynch him. He has no secret powers or night powers.
THAT'S how he's vanilla.
And you do recall that he was recruited. Why would The Master defend MM at all?
THAT'S how he's vanilla.
And you do recall that he was recruited. Why would The Master defend MM at all?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
nijuukyugou wrote:Ugh, this is what happens when I don't get a vacation - I didn't notice MM voted Chris. Scratch what I said about saving teammates.
I need a drink.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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- Tyrant
Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Snow... what's up? Why are you sitting on that vote? Did you have to go back into your team chat to figure out why I'm asking you to vote for me, and how to handle it?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Most likely Master. What's the actual big deal with Bass? Something about Hedgeowl or some theory he (Bass) came up with? That's all I've gleaned so far.Chris wrote:Just to be clear, what form of badiness do you think I am Ninju?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
I've wasted time on there. Lol probably too much time...nijuukyugou wrote:YESSSSSSS God I think I have an addiction but not a bad enough one to care because I'm a beast at geography nowMetalmarsh89 wrote:I am also a user of the Sporcle.nijuukyugou wrote:Catching up...ugh. I knew I shouldn't have left it to tonight, but I wanted to read Harry Potter and play Sporcle instead last night :PElohcin wrote:I'm voting for Chris today. Niju, I see you haven't voted yet...what are your thoughts?
But thanks to Sporcle, I also know every country in the world. Yay geography!
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
I was doing toilet actually.Chris wrote:Snow... what's up? Why are you sitting on that vote? Did you have to go back into your team chat to figure out why I'm asking you to vote for me, and how to handle it?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Snow Dog wrote:I was doing toilet actually.Chris wrote:Snow... what's up? Why are you sitting on that vote? Did you have to go back into your team chat to figure out why I'm asking you to vote for me, and how to handle it?
Sporcle break time.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
He's voted lock step with Sabie and Snow Dog for the most part.nijuukyugou wrote:Most likely Master. What's the actual big deal with Bass? Something about Hedgeowl or some theory he (Bass) came up with? That's all I've gleaned so far.Chris wrote:Just to be clear, what form of badiness do you think I am Ninju?
Voted Hedgie as being the recruiter when it's just about impossible for that to be true.
There was a missing PM on night 6, and Bass was gone that entire time until day 7, and there are far more baddie roles that have to send in PMs vs civ roles. His reasons for votes feel faked.
But those are just my reasons.
But back to this whole The Master deal...
Why did you think that I, as The Master, was defending MM when I was saying that he's essentially harmless?
MM is recruited as far as anyone knows, and The Master would need MM dead just like everyone else. So why would The Master care at all to protect someone who is not on his LMS team?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
OK Snowy! Now that you're all emptied out... how 'bout that vote?!?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
That's a weird thing for a civ with a kill protecton to say.Chris wrote:Snow Dog... I know you're itching to vote for me. Just do it.
I've really given up. Every time I make a post, someone turns it into an issue. I'm distracting from the game . I just want to pack it in.
Do me the favor. Put me out of my misery. Vote for me man...
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Sorry. I STILL don't understand why it's "just about impossible" that Hedge is a recruiter.Chris wrote:He's voted lock step with Sabie and Snow Dog for the most part.nijuukyugou wrote:Most likely Master. What's the actual big deal with Bass? Something about Hedgeowl or some theory he (Bass) came up with? That's all I've gleaned so far.Chris wrote:Just to be clear, what form of badiness do you think I am Ninju?
Voted Hedgie as being the recruiter when it's just about impossible for that to be true.
There was a missing PM on night 6, and Bass was gone that entire time until day 7, and there are far more baddie roles that have to send in PMs vs civ roles. His reasons for votes feel faked.
But those are just my reasons.
But back to this whole The Master deal...
Why did you think that I, as The Master, was defending MM when I was saying that he's essentially harmless?
MM is recruited as far as anyone knows, and The Master would need MM dead just like everyone else. So why would The Master care at all to protect someone who is not on his LMS team?
NOT a winner of...
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Dammit, I thought I said "Sporcle break!" Ah well.Chris wrote:He's voted lock step with Sabie and Snow Dog for the most part.nijuukyugou wrote:Most likely Master. What's the actual big deal with Bass? Something about Hedgeowl or some theory he (Bass) came up with? That's all I've gleaned so far.Chris wrote:Just to be clear, what form of badiness do you think I am Ninju?
Voted Hedgie as being the recruiter when it's just about impossible for that to be true.
There was a missing PM on night 6, and Bass was gone that entire time until day 7, and there are far more baddie roles that have to send in PMs vs civ roles. His reasons for votes feel faked.
But those are just my reasons.
But back to this whole The Master deal...
Why did you think that I, as The Master, was defending MM when I was saying that he's essentially harmless?
MM is recruited as far as anyone knows, and The Master would need MM dead just like everyone else. So why would The Master care at all to protect someone who is not on his LMS team?
I thought Lucy was recruited BY the Master? Was that determined not to be the case? Her role sure says so.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
It said recruited.
Lucy had BTSC with The Master if they found each other.
That's not being recruited. That's having BTSC.
Lucy had BTSC with The Master if they found each other.
That's not being recruited. That's having BTSC.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Her role does not explicitly say that the Master/Lucy relationship is recruitment.nijuukyugou wrote:Dammit, I thought I said "Sporcle break!" Ah well.Chris wrote:He's voted lock step with Sabie and Snow Dog for the most part.nijuukyugou wrote:Most likely Master. What's the actual big deal with Bass? Something about Hedgeowl or some theory he (Bass) came up with? That's all I've gleaned so far.Chris wrote:Just to be clear, what form of badiness do you think I am Ninju?
Voted Hedgie as being the recruiter when it's just about impossible for that to be true.
There was a missing PM on night 6, and Bass was gone that entire time until day 7, and there are far more baddie roles that have to send in PMs vs civ roles. His reasons for votes feel faked.
But those are just my reasons.
But back to this whole The Master deal...
Why did you think that I, as The Master, was defending MM when I was saying that he's essentially harmless?
MM is recruited as far as anyone knows, and The Master would need MM dead just like everyone else. So why would The Master care at all to protect someone who is not on his LMS team?
I thought Lucy was recruited BY the Master? Was that determined not to be the case? Her role sure says so.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Who?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
LOL... knowing your role... this line just struck me as funny...
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Is the master still alive? When was his last NK attempt?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Chris, hesitantly. He could possibly be the Cyber Controller (that's right, I said it), or more preferably he could be Jack.Snow Dog wrote:Who?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
I doubt he's dead, he does have 3 survivals. I think he kills on odds nights?Snow Dog wrote:Is the master still alive? When was his last NK attempt?
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Well i've been banging on about Chris being the Master for ages and it seemed most people disagreed. Quite strongly.Metalmarsh89 wrote:Chris, hesitantly. He could possibly be the Cyber Controller (that's right, I said it), or more preferably he could be Jack.Snow Dog wrote:Who?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
NOT a winner of...
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
I guess. I'm just having difficulty remembering him last being mentioned.Metalmarsh89 wrote:I doubt he's dead, he does have 3 survivals. I think he kills on odds nights?Snow Dog wrote:Is the master still alive? When was his last NK attempt?
Chris I'm going for a shower. OK?
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Probaly because too many people suspect you to believe you. :PSnow Dog wrote:Well i've been banging on about Chris being the Master for ages and it seemed most people disagreed. Quite strongly.Metalmarsh89 wrote:Chris, hesitantly. He could possibly be the Cyber Controller (that's right, I said it), or more preferably he could be Jack.Snow Dog wrote:Who?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Probably the same case for me too...
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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- Tyrant
Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
MM died day 6. That means, not factoring in that he was recruited, he would have had 5 chances of finding The Master.
29 players night 1.
27 players night 2.
26 players night 3.
24 players night 4.
21 players night 5.
I removed a player for each death, and 1 for each player he could have searched.
Those odds are still pretty slim. I thought that BTSC was broken if you were recruited, but the hosts won't answer that. So I suppose MM could be searching for The Master still, but whether he's still recruited or not, he still needs all of the civs dead to win.
Remember that.
LINKI @ Snow: Enjoy it. I'll be waiting for that vote!
And no MM, I'm not The Master. But I love your brilliant "revelation"...
29 players night 1.
27 players night 2.
26 players night 3.
24 players night 4.
21 players night 5.
I removed a player for each death, and 1 for each player he could have searched.
Those odds are still pretty slim. I thought that BTSC was broken if you were recruited, but the hosts won't answer that. So I suppose MM could be searching for The Master still, but whether he's still recruited or not, he still needs all of the civs dead to win.
Remember that.
LINKI @ Snow: Enjoy it. I'll be waiting for that vote!
And no MM, I'm not The Master. But I love your brilliant "revelation"...
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Opps, remove 1 form all but the 29.
I forgot about the lynch deaths.
I forgot about the lynch deaths.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
I don't feel I can vote bass for holding the same suspicion of Hedge that I do. That'd be unfair. Chris got me convinced (with input from others) that he is jack. But now I'm unsure again.
Dammit this game has got me so paranoid.
Dammit this game has got me so paranoid.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
I"m pretty certain Snow Dog isn't going to vote for me.
linki
And here's where Snow Dog hides his extra votes.
LOL!!!!!
linki
And here's where Snow Dog hides his extra votes.
LOL!!!!!
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
No Chris
Lucy Saxon: The wife/companion of Harold Saxon AKA The Master. Every night, she searches for him. If she finds him, they gain BTSC and her win condition becomes the same as that of The Master. If he dies before her, she inherits his kill, but none of his other abilities. If she finds him and he has been targeted by a night action, then her win condition changes to that of the civvies and she does not gain BTSC with him. But if he targets her for a nightkill, it will automatically be blocked.
And now....SHOWER!!!!
sploosh
Lucy Saxon: The wife/companion of Harold Saxon AKA The Master. Every night, she searches for him. If she finds him, they gain BTSC and her win condition becomes the same as that of The Master. If he dies before her, she inherits his kill, but none of his other abilities. If she finds him and he has been targeted by a night action, then her win condition changes to that of the civvies and she does not gain BTSC with him. But if he targets her for a nightkill, it will automatically be blocked.
And now....SHOWER!!!!
sploosh
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
I'll let you know if I find him tonight.Chris wrote:MM died day 6. That means, not factoring in that he was recruited, he would have had 5 chances of finding The Master.
29 players night 1.
27 players night 2.
26 players night 3.
24 players night 4.
21 players night 5.
I removed a player for each death, and 1 for each player he could have searched.
Those odds are still pretty slim. I thought that BTSC was broken if you were recruited, but the hosts won't answer that. So I suppose MM could be searching for The Master still, but whether he's still recruited or not, he still needs all of the civs dead to win.
Remember that.
LINKI @ Snow: Enjoy it. I'll be waiting for that vote!
And no MM, I'm not The Master. But I love your brilliant "revelation"...
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
-
- Tyrant
Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
No Snow:
Lucy Saxon: The wife/companion of Harold Saxon AKA The Master. Every night, she searches for him. If she finds him, they gain BTSC and her win condition becomes the same as that of The Master. If he dies before her, she inherits his kill, but none of his other abilities. If she finds him and he has been targeted by a night action, then her win condition changes to that of the civvies and she does not gain BTSC with him. But if he targets her for a nightkill, it will automatically be blocked.
IF she finds him, AND he's been targeted by a night action, THEN her win condition changes.
If she never found him, she is still LMS.
By what you're saying Snow, if we lynched Jenny or Madame, they'd show up as recruited too.
See what I'm sayin'?
Lucy Saxon: The wife/companion of Harold Saxon AKA The Master. Every night, she searches for him. If she finds him, they gain BTSC and her win condition becomes the same as that of The Master. If he dies before her, she inherits his kill, but none of his other abilities. If she finds him and he has been targeted by a night action, then her win condition changes to that of the civvies and she does not gain BTSC with him. But if he targets her for a nightkill, it will automatically be blocked.
IF she finds him, AND he's been targeted by a night action, THEN her win condition changes.
If she never found him, she is still LMS.
By what you're saying Snow, if we lynched Jenny or Madame, they'd show up as recruited too.
See what I'm sayin'?
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- Tyrant
Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'll let you know if I find him tonight.
You do that.
But seriously, do you think anyone is going to believe a word you say?
I mean, you're a recruited Indy.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Lastly... and I mean it, this is the last time I talk about whether MM's "recruitment" was for The Master.
Lucy searches for The Master. When was the last time some who was recruited had to search for their recruiter?
They don't.
Lucy searches for The Master. When was the last time some who was recruited had to search for their recruiter?
They don't.
Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Who else fo you think is bad?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Chris, hesitantly. He could possibly be the Cyber Controller (that's right, I said it), or more preferably he could be Jack.Snow Dog wrote:Who?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
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- Tyrant
Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
MM... LOL.. how the hell could I be the cyber controller?
THAT I've got to hear...
THAT I've got to hear...
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Chris wrote:Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'll let you know if I find him tonight.
You do that.
But seriously, do you think anyone is going to believe a word you say?
I mean, you're a recruited Indy.
Except Epig. He'll believe every word you say.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Just curious, how did you react when MP did this?Chris wrote:Snow Dog... I know you're itching to vote for me. Just do it.
I've really given up. Every time I make a post, someone turns it into an issue. I'm distracting from the game . I just want to pack it in.
Do me the favor. Put me out of my misery. Vote for me man...
That's not why I'm voting Bass....Snow Dog wrote:I don't feel I can vote bass for holding the same suspicion of Hedge that I do. That'd be unfair. Chris got me convinced (with input from others) that he is jack. But now I'm unsure again.
Dammit this game has got me so paranoid.
He implied knowledge of how the recruitments work, which someone on the team would know.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Not really. We don't know what her wim conditions are if she never finds the master.Chris wrote:No Snow:
Lucy Saxon: The wife/companion of Harold Saxon AKA The Master. Every night, she searches for him. If she finds him, they gain BTSC and her win condition becomes the same as that of The Master. If he dies before her, she inherits his kill, but none of his other abilities. If she finds him and he has been targeted by a night action, then her win condition changes to that of the civvies and she does not gain BTSC with him. But if he targets her for a nightkill, it will automatically be blocked.
IF she finds him, AND he's been targeted by a night action, THEN her win condition changes.
If she never found him, she is still LMS.
By what you're saying Snow, if we lynched Jenny or Madame, they'd show up as recruited too.
See what I'm sayin'?
And that Jenny thing I don't understand at all
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
You have your teammate NK you to draw attention away from that idea. Since you'd survive anyway, and the Cybers have a kill each night, why not?Chris wrote:MM... LOL.. how the hell could I be the cyber controller?
THAT I've got to hear...
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Did he? Maybe he just assumed something? I'll try and find that post.Dom wrote:Just curious, how did you react when MP did this?Chris wrote:Snow Dog... I know you're itching to vote for me. Just do it.
I've really given up. Every time I make a post, someone turns it into an issue. I'm distracting from the game . I just want to pack it in.
Do me the favor. Put me out of my misery. Vote for me man...That's not why I'm voting Bass....Snow Dog wrote:I don't feel I can vote bass for holding the same suspicion of Hedge that I do. That'd be unfair. Chris got me convinced (with input from others) that he is jack. But now I'm unsure again.
Dammit this game has got me so paranoid.
He implied knowledge of how the recruitments work, which someone on the team would know.
NOT a winner of...
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- Tyrant
Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Remember, the MM/Epig lynch was a tie on paper, but the hosts said it was not a tie.
Amy knows where she voted... If she voted for Epig, then she knows that The CyberHead found the body.
And Snow was one of the MM voters.
Linki @ Snow: Oh no you don't You don't get to go suddenly find a reason to vote Bass. Bass merely said that he thought there were three recruits using the same logic I did. Odd day recruitments.
Dom, why didn't you find it suspicious that I used that same logic that Bass did. I said it before Bass did even.
Amy knows where she voted... If she voted for Epig, then she knows that The CyberHead found the body.
And Snow was one of the MM voters.
Linki @ Snow: Oh no you don't You don't get to go suddenly find a reason to vote Bass. Bass merely said that he thought there were three recruits using the same logic I did. Odd day recruitments.
Dom, why didn't you find it suspicious that I used that same logic that Bass did. I said it before Bass did even.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Chris is my main suspect right now.zeek wrote:Who else fo you think is bad?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Chris, hesitantly. He could possibly be the Cyber Controller (that's right, I said it), or more preferably he could be Jack.Snow Dog wrote:Who?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
I believe Elo and DF are good based on the Strax relations. I'm gonna stick with MP and SVS being good because it's just kinda obvious. I also trust Epi.
TH is flying WAY under the radar right now. That's all I've noted from him. He has a night action which is worth noting.
Indifferent on the rest, but I haven't focused on them. If Bass flips as a cyber, then my read on Chris will change. Anyone else you recommend looking at?
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Don't care.Dom wrote:Just curious, how did you react when MP did this?Chris wrote:Snow Dog... I know you're itching to vote for me. Just do it.
I've really given up. Every time I make a post, someone turns it into an issue. I'm distracting from the game . I just want to pack it in.
Do me the favor. Put me out of my misery. Vote for me man...
It's different here.
Don't like it?
Vote for me.
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
Yes I found that post. I see nothing there but i want to know what Dom made of it.Chris wrote:Remember, the MM/Epig lynch was a tie on paper, but the hosts said it was not a tie.
Amy knows where she voted... If she voted for Epig, then she knows that The CyberHead found the body.
And Snow was one of the MM voters.
Linki @ Snow: Oh no you don't You don't get to go suddenly find a reason to vote Bass. Bass merely said that he thought there were three recruits using the same logic I did. Odd day recruitments.
Dom, why didn't you find it suspicious that I used that same logic that Bass did. I said it before Bass did even.
NOT a winner of...
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Re: Dr. Who Mafia - Day 9
How do you know TH has a night action? And be careful who you think you can trust wwith recruiters.Metalmarsh89 wrote:Chris is my main suspect right now.zeek wrote:Who else fo you think is bad?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Chris, hesitantly. He could possibly be the Cyber Controller (that's right, I said it), or more preferably he could be Jack.Snow Dog wrote:Who?Metalmarsh89 wrote:Why does Dom only make one post at a time?
Linki: I think I know who the master is, and not for that reason.
And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
I believe Elo and DF are good based on the Strax relations. I'm gonna stick with MP and SVS being good because it's just kinda obvious. I also trust Epi.
TH is flying WAY under the radar right now. That's all I've noted from him. He has a night action which is worth noting.
Indifferent on the rest, but I haven't focused on them. If Bass flips as a cyber, then my read on Chris will change. Anyone else you recommend looking at?
NOT a winner of...