The Syndicate

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:07 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:01 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:23 pm I don't really care about Wilgy's hammer read, villagers have wack reads

I do care that Wilgy has 0 reads that don't involve the word "hammer"

That's just incorrect. I TR Hally, NAA and Marmot.

NAA I even vocalized.

Oh my god.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm I will ask. People who have correctly read Dizzy before. Why aren't they scum rn?

I find that I'm just bad at reading them.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm @c4e5g3d5

I’m not sure I would associate town Alison with a see-what-sticks approach; regardless, I find this manner of complex metagaming to be too specific to tell a reliable story about any player.

If I expect anything of town Alison, it’s that I will understand what she is doing regardless of whether or not I agree. I don’t entirely understand her play here. I think I view her similarly to how others were viewing Mac when he showed up.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:33 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm @c4e5g3d5

I’m not sure I would associate town Alison with a see-what-sticks approach; regardless, I find this manner of complex metagaming to be too specific to tell a reliable story about any player.

If I expect anything of town Alison, it’s that I will understand what she is doing regardless of whether or not I agree. I don’t entirely understand her play here. I think I view her similarly to how others were viewing Mac when he showed up.

I get that my reads can be convoluted, but I wouldn't call that read complex metagaming. It was like 80% just describing why I think thing is town indicative and then noting that it checks out from a meta angle. Just doesn't seem like you get what I'm saying. Not mad, I'm used to it lol, but can you give it another try or something, and if that fails we can call it quits until I figure out some better wording?

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:32 pmMmmff, mff

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:04 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:26 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:25 pm Btw running people up is kind of pointless if you're vocally unwilling to hammer lol, the whole point of running people up is to see what happens when they get close to a hammer, but there's no tension to it if everyone knows there are only two or three people in this game whod actually hammer lol

Who is vocally unwilling to hammer?

Literally everyone saying things like "I don't want a hammer" lol

Who has said that though?

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:16 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:12 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:59 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:58 pm jay, why is radishes the towniest town to ever town?

I bet I can answer this and if Jay explains what's in my head I'll return the lock town read on him.

Radish hypes up the whole did he think what I thought he thought thing, making it sound like there's a high bar for Jay to clear here

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:59 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:58 pm jay, why is radishes the towniest town to ever town?

his reception of Nanook doing the "Jay and Mac are outed" thing and conversion of that into "Nanook and Mac are outed" looked very real to me, even if he didn't intend for it to be taken as incredibly serious. The brain that happened in MR's brain to facilitate that read is something I don't figure mafia are braining on Page 1

All Jay has to offer is describing what Radish did and saying "this feels like town"

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:00 pm Yep Jay town.

And that's enough for Radish apparently

Bit of a letdown

and you’re also town

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 pm This seems kinda Alison 101 lmao

Also I think the main reason for my Alison tr is presentation, still having trouble describing it but there's an efficiency to it, she gets to the point quickly and bluntly in a way that looks designed to hit harder when you read it
Just makes me actually believe she's trying to stir the thread, and I also think it describes what I've seen of v!Alison better than what I've seen of w!Alison

And generally she seems to not have any kind of schedule for who she pressures and when but these reads are always wrong from me so take that one with a grain of salt

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:25 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:06 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:00 pm just to check myself, did anyone else have difficulty understanding my read on c4 besides NAA?

me

alright, i’ll spoon feed it i guess

i think wolves generally aren’t bold enough to go that hard against jay declaring someone lock v and the content of c4’s case is one of those subtle things wolves don’t pick up on (unless they’re w/w)

also think it’s villagery from c4 specifically because i think it’s the sort of thing he tends to look for when solving and the way he followed up with it to me reads like how he gets when he believes he’s caught something, but i’d v read it from anyone

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 pm This seems kinda Alison 101 lmao

Also I think the main reason for my Alison tr is presentation, still having trouble describing it but there's an efficiency to it, she gets to the point quickly and bluntly in a way that looks designed to hit harder when you read it
Just makes me actually believe she's trying to stir the thread, and I also think it describes what I've seen of v!Alison better than what I've seen of w!Alison

And generally she seems to not have any kind of schedule for who she pressures and when but these reads are always wrong from me so take that one with a grain of salt

I'm revisiting this per your request, c4. What you describe in orange is, to me, Alison rather than town Alison or mafia Alison. I am not sure I have seen Alison present her views of a game "inefficiently"; that is perhaps one of her core values as a player. I think it's plausible that she has tried to "stir the thread", and that such a description can be associated with some specific posts she has made if they are viewed with the most favorable available interpretation. Things like the elongated process of "reaction testing" Hally apply. To me, the important question is not "is this stylistically a town Alison action?" but rather it is "do I believe Alison is doing things for the reasons that she says she is doing things?".

An example: I am not sure Alison's treatment of Hally can really be described as a "reaction test" or that I believe her when she claims it as such. There are certain motions in the general consensus that can be placed over Alison's handling of Hally like a stencil, and I think the fit would be close. Alison's read changed, abruptly and strongly, in a stage of play in which Hally's general stance of being threatened by the player base at large was concurrently waning outside of Alison's influence. I might be convoluting my explanation, so let me know if this doesn't make sense. I don't have a ton of confidence in this stuff, but I am trying to articulate why I might doubt Alison's play to this point. The Hally example is just one among a couple or a few that I could babble on about had I the time or inclination.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:50 pm 'Reaction test' has to be the most overused phrase in Mafia.

I suspect most such 'tests' are simply post hoc justifications for bad pushes.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:27 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:25 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:22 pm I mean... just ask

it’s really mostly that i haven’t followed your read on me and how it’s progressed but i’m kinda sick of people talking about me already

I intentionally made fart posts to get a reaction from you. You ignored it which I found sus because I figured it was because you were confused how to respond to me fart posting as town. Then you got moderately townier after you started trying to resolve me.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm correction naa's entire iso is townie

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:31 pm Simply this:
if MR flips RED, I don't think these are wolves
c4e5g3d5, Alison, MacDougall, NotAnAxehole

I think there's a likely chance MR is red because of them not being hammered for what, a 10-12 hour period of floating 4?

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:38 pmThe fact that Wilgy says the "team" could be actively avoiding it when a wolf MR could only have one teammate is actually a little townie imo, because I think scum!Wilgy would be more aware of the fact that there could only be one teammate which is not much of a team.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:30 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:38 pmThe fact that Wilgy says the "team" could be actively avoiding it when a wolf MR could only have one teammate is actually a little townie imo, because I think scum!Wilgy would be more aware of the fact that there could only be one teammate which is not much of a team.

I thought the same thing, and this is the Marmot analysis I subscribed to. Thank you.

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:00 pm nobody has any thoughts on this?

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:02 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:46 pm Can I get a tldr on Axe that doesn't revolve around "not towny"

- treatment of alison is wolfy - opens saying he wants to sheep her while not yet having a read on her then v reads her for a weak reason that doesn’t really apply to her and makes no effort engage with/understand the suspicion surrounding her i.e. what villagers do when someone they v read is getting wolf read a ton. just don’t see any critical thought or drive to figure things out in his treatment of her and it reads more like he’s just trying to ingratiate himself to her.

- treatment of his nonconsensus suspects is wolfy - keeps throwing you out as a wolf read but does nothing about it. again, not what villagers do when someone they wolf read is getting widely v read. i think at one point he even threw out you/jay/dizzy as his suspects and you’re all being cleared pretty much, meaning from his pov town’s consensus is way off, yet i don’t see any of the concern in his posts that villagers have when they think everything is upside down.

- i find his treatment of me wolfy too but obviously biased there. just don’t feel like he’s been trying to solve me in a good faith way.

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:06 pm also he and nanook know each other well afaik + nanook has been getting a lot of heat, but NAA has largely ignored him i think

i dunno, just not feeling the villager in the way he’s approaching anything but i’ve never played with him so maybe i’m backwards here

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 pm This seems kinda Alison 101 lmao

Also I think the main reason for my Alison tr is presentation, still having trouble describing it but there's an efficiency to it, she gets to the point quickly and bluntly in a way that looks designed to hit harder when you read it
Just makes me actually believe she's trying to stir the thread, and I also think it describes what I've seen of v!Alison better than what I've seen of w!Alison

And generally she seems to not have any kind of schedule for who she pressures and when but these reads are always wrong from me so take that one with a grain of salt

I'm revisiting this per your request, c4. What you describe in orange is, to me, Alison rather than town Alison or mafia Alison. I am not sure I have seen Alison present her views of a game "inefficiently"; that is perhaps one of her core values as a player. I think it's plausible that she has tried to "stir the thread", and that such a description can be associated with some specific posts she has made if they are viewed with the most favorable available interpretation. Things like the elongated process of "reaction testing" Hally apply. To me, the important question is not "is this stylistically a town Alison action?" but rather it is "do I believe Alison is doing things for the reasons that she says she is doing things?".

An example: I am not sure Alison's treatment of Hally can really be described as a "reaction test" or that I believe her when she claims it as such. There are certain motions in the general consensus that can be placed over Alison's handling of Hally like a stencil, and I think the fit would be close. Alison's read changed, abruptly and strongly, in a stage of play in which Hally's general stance of being threatened by the player base at large was concurrently waning outside of Alison's influence. I might be convoluting my explanation, so let me know if this doesn't make sense. I don't have a ton of confidence in this stuff, but I am trying to articulate why I might doubt Alison's play to this point. The Hally example is just one among a couple or a few that I could babble on about had I the time or inclination.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm I will ask. People who have correctly read Dizzy before. Why aren't they scum rn?

I find that I'm just bad at reading them.

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:20 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm I will ask. People who have correctly read Dizzy before. Why aren't they scum rn?

I find that I'm just bad at reading them.

i’m not sure

i agree with where his head’s been at generally but i feel his vibe/presence is off in the sense that as a villager i feel like tries not to care but then gets sucked into it anyway whereas here i feel like he’s almost overplaying how little he cares in a way that might actually be wolfy for him

i’ve seen wolves lay on the idc vibe too thick because they think that if they’re so blatant about it people will actually level themselves out of wolf reading them for it (w!alexa does this for example)

but i don’t know actually know if that’s the line dizzy would take here as a wolf and it’s entirely possible his mood is off and it means nothing

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:11 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm correction naa's entire iso is townie

this post reminds me of how i caught mac in GoC when he declared sabie was lock v for no reason

like idk how anyone could think this lol

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:42 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:04 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:26 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:25 pm Btw running people up is kind of pointless if you're vocally unwilling to hammer lol, the whole point of running people up is to see what happens when they get close to a hammer, but there's no tension to it if everyone knows there are only two or three people in this game whod actually hammer lol

Who is vocally unwilling to hammer?

Literally everyone saying things like "I don't want a hammer" lol

Who has said that though?

Alison Jay you hally dizzy radishes I think have said some form of it

Idk I'm not fact checking right now that's just offhand

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:44 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:11 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm correction naa's entire iso is townie

this post reminds me of how i caught mac in GoC when he declared sabie was lock v for no reason

like idk how anyone could think this lol

I read his iso and it was townie... explain how it wasn't? first 9 posts.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:44 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:11 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:30 pm correction naa's entire iso is townie

this post reminds me of how i caught mac in GoC when he declared sabie was lock v for no reason

like idk how anyone could think this lol

I read his iso and it was townie... explain how it wasn't? first 9 posts.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm Town reads
c4e5g3d5
Hally
MacDougall
Marmot

There's some dissonance here, but gun to head town
Dyslexicon
Master Radishes

Not town reads
Alison
DrWilgy
Nanook
NAA

At 9 vs. 2, an ordinary set of roles would call for a POE pool of 5 players (2 mafia + 3 mischops). The arrangement of this game's matrix provides the likelihood (certainty?) of a mischop being lost to an extra mafia kill or beloved princess, so reduce the POE to 4. We'd then need 6 town reads to square the game away, which for the moment does seem like a genuine challenge. I have a theoretical POE built above, but I would like to be more confident about it than I am.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 pm This seems kinda Alison 101 lmao

Also I think the main reason for my Alison tr is presentation, still having trouble describing it but there's an efficiency to it, she gets to the point quickly and bluntly in a way that looks designed to hit harder when you read it
Just makes me actually believe she's trying to stir the thread, and I also think it describes what I've seen of v!Alison better than what I've seen of w!Alison

And generally she seems to not have any kind of schedule for who she pressures and when but these reads are always wrong from me so take that one with a grain of salt

I'm revisiting this per your request, c4. What you describe in orange is, to me, Alison rather than town Alison or mafia Alison. I am not sure I have seen Alison present her views of a game "inefficiently"; that is perhaps one of her core values as a player. I think it's plausible that she has tried to "stir the thread", and that such a description can be associated with some specific posts she has made if they are viewed with the most favorable available interpretation. Things like the elongated process of "reaction testing" Hally apply. To me, the important question is not "is this stylistically a town Alison action?" but rather it is "do I believe Alison is doing things for the reasons that she says she is doing things?".

An example: I am not sure Alison's treatment of Hally can really be described as a "reaction test" or that I believe her when she claims it as such. There are certain motions in the general consensus that can be placed over Alison's handling of Hally like a stencil, and I think the fit would be close. Alison's read changed, abruptly and strongly, in a stage of play in which Hally's general stance of being threatened by the player base at large was concurrently waning outside of Alison's influence. I might be convoluting my explanation, so let me know if this doesn't make sense. I don't have a ton of confidence in this stuff, but I am trying to articulate why I might doubt Alison's play to this point. The Hally example is just one among a couple or a few that I could babble on about had I the time or inclination.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm Town reads
c4e5g3d5
Hally
MacDougall
Marmot

There's some dissonance here, but gun to head town
Dyslexicon
Master Radishes

Not town reads
Alison
DrWilgy
Nanook
NAA

At 9 vs. 2, an ordinary set of roles would call for a POE pool of 5 players (2 mafia + 3 mischops). The arrangement of this game's matrix provides the likelihood (certainty?) of a mischop being lost to an extra mafia kill or beloved princess, so reduce the POE to 4. We'd then need 6 town reads to square the game away, which for the moment does seem like a genuine challenge. I have a theoretical POE built above, but I would like to be more confident about it than I am.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:49 pm I had the thought that if Axe were 2020 Schweppes I'd be townreading him

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:49 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:18 pm Town reads
c4e5g3d5
Hally
MacDougall
Marmot

There's some dissonance here, but gun to head town
Dyslexicon
Master Radishes

Not town reads
Alison
DrWilgy
Nanook
NAA

At 9 vs. 2, an ordinary set of roles would call for a POE pool of 5 players (2 mafia + 3 mischops). The arrangement of this game's matrix provides the likelihood (certainty?) of a mischop being lost to an extra mafia kill or beloved princess, so reduce the POE to 4. We'd then need 6 town reads to square the game away, which for the moment does seem like a genuine challenge. I have a theoretical POE built above, but I would like to be more confident about it than I am.

Wilgy is town.

What's the dissonance with me?

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:41 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm I will ask. People who have correctly read Dizzy before. Why aren't they scum rn?

I find that I'm just bad at reading them.

This is like super towny for Wilgy for me. Wilgy says this and other stuff he's said by now as town.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:59 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:58 pm jay, why is radishes the towniest town to ever town?

I bet I can answer this and if Jay explains what's in my head I'll return the lock town read on him.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:51 pmEntirely for that one post? Big meh.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:52 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:41 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm I will ask. People who have correctly read Dizzy before. Why aren't they scum rn?

I find that I'm just bad at reading them.

This is like super towny for Wilgy for me. Wilgy says this and other stuff he's said by now as town.

@Hally I don't think Wilgy ever cares about wanting to read me correctly as scum or asks around. He usually slaps a scum read on me or just doesn't care at all. You could say "But pretending", but nah. I just think he's town and I've decided. His thoughts are weird, but that is not uncommon.

Hally wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:54 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:52 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:41 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:12 pm I will ask. People who have correctly read Dizzy before. Why aren't they scum rn?

I find that I'm just bad at reading them.

This is like super towny for Wilgy for me. Wilgy says this and other stuff he's said by now as town.

@Hally I don't think Wilgy ever cares about wanting to read me correctly as scum or asks around. He usually slaps a scum read on me or just doesn't care at all. You could say "But pretending", but nah. I just think he's town and I've decided. His thoughts are weird, but that is not uncommon.

really? i feel like asking the thread for their read on someone is so easy to fake as a wolf

also i gave a lengthy reply to him that he ignored, which makes me think he didn’t really care about his question

Alison wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:18 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:15 am Wilgy is obviously town who next, Alison?

I don't think he is

I re-read MR though and some stuff pings me (specifically the flat-sounding attempt to sound like an egoistical townie angry that people are assuming they're out of their scum range, and the repetition of "witty opening post" making for a kinda stilted entrance). So I [VOTE: Master Radishes] aubergine.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:47 pm Screw you I can be mafia still