Sims Mafia game thread - Town win

[Spacedaisy]

You said I changed my vote already, I didn't change my vote until :59.

You posted at :59, but when I pressed the vote button and it refreshed the votes were already different. I voted first and then tried to post, unsuccessfully. Someone else had moved onto Wilgy before me. But as I point out later in my many posts from tonight your move onto Wilgy is the biggest indicator that you might actually be civ. I just don't understand why you acted as if you didn't know who had broken the tie, when you must have known. And btw, I thought you moved from Abigail, but she still has three, so someone moved onto her too. I would say I need to see who, but all her voters were civ so it doesn't really matter.

Are you lying about seeing my vote in there before you voted?

[Lime Coke]

You said I changed my vote already, I didn't change my vote until :59.

You posted at :59, but when I pressed the vote button and it refreshed the votes were already different. I voted first and then tried to post, unsuccessfully. Someone else had moved onto Wilgy before me. But as I point out later in my many posts from tonight your move onto Wilgy is the biggest indicator that you might actually be civ. I just don't understand why you acted as if you didn't know who had broken the tie, when you must have known. And btw, I thought you moved from Abigail, but she still has three, so someone moved onto her too. I would say I need to see who, but all her voters were civ so it doesn't really matter.

Are you lying about seeing my vote in there before you voted?

No I 100% believe I saw you voting before I changed my vote.

[Lime Coke]

I want to say something regarding the voting but it feels cheap.

[Spacedaisy]

In situation like this, where if we mislim the mafia win, it's not about who is out, it's about who is still in. They want to keep people in that will be one of two things:

1. Easy to misliim
2. Easy to convince to vote a mislim

*snip*

Neither Roxy nor Lime Coke have come out strong enough to be evaluated against this.

Are you saying I'm neither of these two?

Yeah, kind of. I'm saying you have not passionately gone after anyone enough to be someone that a wolf could count on to mislim, nor have you had that much suspicion on you to be an easy mislim. It's not an accusation, just a statement that I can't apply that consideration to you. I don't question why is Lime Coke still alive. I do question why Long Con and SVS are still alive though.

[Spacedaisy]

EDBWOP: *that a wolf could count on you to help them mislim

[Spacedaisy]

You said I changed my vote already, I didn't change my vote until :59.

You posted at :59, but when I pressed the vote button and it refreshed the votes were already different. I voted first and then tried to post, unsuccessfully. Someone else had moved onto Wilgy before me. But as I point out later in my many posts from tonight your move onto Wilgy is the biggest indicator that you might actually be civ. I just don't understand why you acted as if you didn't know who had broken the tie, when you must have known. And btw, I thought you moved from Abigail, but she still has three, so someone moved onto her too. I would say I need to see who, but all her voters were civ so it doesn't really matter.

Are you lying about seeing my vote in there before you voted?

No I 100% believe I saw you voting before I changed my vote.

Saw me voting, what does that mean exactly? That you saw me in the thread? Yeah, I was in the thread. I came in at 3 minutes prior to the deadline and I was going back and forth about Wilgy and sig. I believe it was 9:58 when I pushed the submit button on my Wilgy vote, though I can't say that with certainty. I just know it was 9:59 when I was trying to bang out a quick post to declare my vote in thread, but I wasn't able to submit that in time.

[Spacedaisy]

Anyway, I'll leave you to catch up in peace. I've got to get some sleep now. I'll be in later today.

[Lime Coke]

Like not being a miselim...yes I can 100% see that because I rarely get miselimmed.

Not able too convince me to vote wrongly... that's maybe more what I fit into.

Like you're right I haven't lead the game in anyway... but the last like 2 games have been like that for me.
I don't feel comfortable leading the game unless I have a scumread I'm decently confident in... and that doesn't happen often.
The only other time is if I need to defend a townread from others and try to wagon someone else.

But yeah clearly seeing my reads and votes being pure trash I definitely belong here.

[Lime Coke]

You said I changed my vote already, I didn't change my vote until :59.

You posted at :59, but when I pressed the vote button and it refreshed the votes were already different. I voted first and then tried to post, unsuccessfully. Someone else had moved onto Wilgy before me. But as I point out later in my many posts from tonight your move onto Wilgy is the biggest indicator that you might actually be civ. I just don't understand why you acted as if you didn't know who had broken the tie, when you must have known. And btw, I thought you moved from Abigail, but she still has three, so someone moved onto her too. I would say I need to see who, but all her voters were civ so it doesn't really matter.

Are you lying about seeing my vote in there before you voted?

No I 100% believe I saw you voting before I changed my vote.

Saw me voting, what does that mean exactly? That you saw me in the thread? Yeah, I was in the thread. I came in at 3 minutes prior to the deadline and I was going back and forth about Wilgy and sig. I believe it was 9:58 when I pushed the submit button on my Wilgy vote, though I can't say that with certainty. I just know it was 9:59 when I was trying to bang out a quick post to declare my vote in thread, but I wasn't able to submit that in time.

I saw you voted on the poll itself before I changed my vote.

[Lime Coke]

I somewhat need sleep too and I'm busy until like 4 eastern for me so I'll try to talk to you later.

[Lime Coke]

Actually I just sneezed 8 times can we go back to townreading me?

[S~V~S]

Based on his day one, I am pretty sure Brad is civ. To be honest, I think LC is as well, and have since felt he sounded sincere, and rereading the thread while we were sleeping, made me believe it even more.

I do have to look up a bad Brad game, I know he has had several recent ones. I am contrasting him mainly to a game where I hosted him, which gives you a unique perspective, and this one. He was not pleased to be bad when he got randed in GOC. He had absolutely no on topic discussion, before his early death. He looks nothing like that here. He does look like he looked in Fallout New Vegas, his most recent game, where he was town. I watched that one.

And I am pretty much totally sure LC is sincere. He really believes it.

[S~V~S]

I'm not quite sure where the vote stands but I think my vote will make a tie.

LongC case on SVS has me willing to look more closely in her direction

I did wonder about Daisy with that vote but her explanation vibed with me as I have done similar since threads are locked down now

But I'm going with my gut and voting Syn

I asked Daisy this, and I'm going to ask you.

Can you point out to me the specific parts you especially like about his case?

What I mean when I ask this (and I am going to ask @Spacedaisy this too) is to tell me *specifically* which points he made that you find so convincing. Not a general thing, but specifics, please. Becasue I really want to know.

Here it is. I spoilered the first part which is moreso about Wilgys yeet than about what a fucking menace I am. But I left it there.

Spoiler: show

wilgy knows in a battle of wim he'll always out-class me, since I don't duel with wall-posts and structured paragraphs

but this is him wolfing

What's the difference between Wilgy town and Wilgy wolf?

I know this is the current modus operandi of mafia on MU and TS, where everything boils down to claims that we know the differences between someone being town and wolf because people are reliably consistent and they only ever do x as town and y as wolf, but I should inform you and probably everyone else that I'm not going to engage in an argument about meta, because it's not reliable, it's rarely true, and people hide in it all the time

wilgy is a wolf because he's establishing an agenda/worldview that everyone else is now rotating around. he's set the terms and conditions for everyone else's casing, their arguments. he's set it up so that there's uncontested wolf-claims against people who are just outright afk, and then set up easy mischops for later days by picking holes in every little thing someone says with posts that pretend at reason, both of which will be looked at by others as Villager Effort and as a reason to wolf-read the people he nitpicked

Now that you know it's Wilgy town, and you can reverse the polarity on this negative read, what do you think of Wilgy's 'worldview/agenda'?

it's still not great tbh. him being town and also pushing that world/approach confuses me, unless he had some kind of plan to switcheroo in the following days

of course, him picking holes in every little thing someone says, as a villager, would be useful now/later

Ok. I get this view on Wilgy's posts, and I didn't disagree. It wasn't the reason I voted for him, but more like "if he's bad, this is not a trap we want to fall into". I voted for him because of his weird self-contradiction about sig, and I still don't understand how he came up with that stuff honestly. Point is, there was more than one valid reason to suspect him.

That's why an exchange like the following one, where they're discussing Wilgy's yeet, is a huge stretch:

That's egregious

I know, right?

Even I knew Wilgy was town and I read like 3 pages

He was the person most actively solving.

Not liking someone’s philosophy of how mafia should be played doesn’t make them bad .

If Daisy had time to read enough to change from her null-ish stance on Wilgy to voting him out, then she had time to post her vote at the very least.

I could also vote for sig again tbh.

Let's put aside the level of gall it takes to not play, not even vote, and then come in and berate us for voting a guy with more than one strike against him. Here's the thing: hindsight is 20/20. Yup, Wilgy was obviously town... as of the point his role was revealed. Let's not act like we haven't seen Wolf Wilgy absolutely snow everyone into believing he's obvious town, including all three of you.

We've got Michelle, S~V~S, and Abi all wringing their hands and lamenting how this could have happened, and I'll be shocked if there is not a Wolf in that group.

Michelle is sticking to a loose WIFOM against Syn and sig based on their suspicion of her and Wilgy, and she once again poured on the extra "but Wilgy was so obvious town" to try and bolster the suspicion, which I don't like. So, continuing her Day 1 stance. @Michelle voted for Abi and came close to getting her eliminated yesterday, but today it's friendly talk and softball questions. What is your real stance on her? You are not treating her like someone you suspect today. Actually, what's your opinion on Roxy, you said you won't let her down, does that mean that you think she's Town?

Abi is just...

Bad news I'm never gonna be found. Really should've solved me D1

Abi, I enjoy playing with you when you're here, but it's time to make some hard choices, and I think it goes like this: a) get WIM, get playing, b) get replaced, c) get yeeted. There's no shame in choosing option b) if that's what it takes, but your personal forecast there is frustrating.

S~V~S is my top choice of the three as wolf. She voted off the Wilgy wagon:

sig 3 Voters: falcon45ca, S~V~S, DrWilgy

... along with two confirmed Town. She came in here today ready to berate Wilgy voters, and dive right on to the Lowest Hanging Fruit, Spacedaisy, for her stealth Wilgy vote. Lime Coke made the exact same vote, and you haven't even questioned him about it, even though when Daisy did it, it's damning. I get that voting without posting is not ever a good look, but is that good evidence of a wolf? You acknowledged that it's not the greatest move for a Wolf to make, but then decided you still believe it.

And... I just plain don't believe this: "I reread Wilgy to see if there was anything that could have changed her mind from "meh" to voting him, and I couldn't find it." So, you're saying you attempted reread Wilgy's progression through Day 1 from Daisy's perspective somehow to find the point where she most likely decided she suspects him?

Yeah right. There's no way you did that, you're posting fake busywork to look towny. Why would you even bother doing that, we have two days and the answer you're looking for will almost certainly come to light unless Daisy has simply abandoned the game.

[VOTE: S~V~S] aubergine

Also, @Long Con , I noticed this part of the above while rereading :

And... I just plain don't believe this: "I reread Wilgy to see if there was anything that could have changed her mind from "meh" to voting him, and I couldn't find it." So, you're saying you attempted reread Wilgy's progression through Day 1 from Daisy's perspective somehow to find the point where she most likely decided she suspects him?

This confuses me a bit. I don't recall saying anything like that, I said I reread DAISY, not Wilgy. If I implied that somewhere, I'm sorry it wasn't my intention. Reading someone I think is town trying to see why others suspect them is futile, unless you know that person super super well. I know Daisy fairly well, but not enough for that to even be a think i would try to do.

I know at times my wording can be obscure, I run on, etc. I spend alot of time explaining what I *really* meant, both here and irl lol. But Could you point out to me where I said this? Becasue i definitely did not reread Wilgy to see why Daisy voted for him, and am perplexes as to why I would say I did.

[S~V~S]

Doh @Roxy I quoted that post ^^ meaning to tag you. I wrote it before we decided to sleep, and didn't want it to get lost. Thanks!

[S~V~S]

I mean I skimmed Wilgy after he died since I didn't understand why anyone had voted for him, but I didn't read him specifically to see why Daisy did. TBH I expected him to be the night 1 NK he was solving so hard, not the Day 1 yeet.

[Spacedaisy]

Nah I'm done catching up it was mostly you since day start if you got questions I'll try to answer.

Lime Coke, if you are fucking civ then read all the posts because I didn't talk just about you! You get back in here and help because if you are civ and vote me, we're done, game over. Engage in this game if you are civ!

I am trying. Idk what else to do at this rate.

I can’t sleep and I’m a bit concerned about this. I didn’t mean to be rude or mean, I was actually panicking that fellow civs might not engage and we’ll end up screwed. Anyway, I want to apologize to Lime Coke if I was offensive to you.

[S~V~S]

I am not going to vote for either LC. And that's about all I have to say about that.

If it means I go down since LC is so sure I'm bad, and Daisy and Roxy think his case is the bomb, so be it.

But if you are civ, Long Con, as I think you are, we need to have a talk post game about how we read each other. If you're not, excellent game. I totally believe you're sincere, if misguided.

Linki @Spacedaisy take a look at Brads last day of New Vegas. He was civ there, and had similar thoughts.

[Long Con]

@Long Con How likely is it that I am wrong about Roxy? Your thoughts?

I can't see why you would be left in if you are civ and SVS was mafia. You and I have both expressed suspicion of her. That would mean they would be counting on eliminating me, and convincing you against voting SVS. But you've been shouting against her for a while now.

You said that Roxy is firm with her suspicions, and slow to change, and that's why she's not a Wolf to you. Is that all you look at when judging a player? What's her voting record like? What are the reasons for her suspicions, are they genuine or contrived? It feels like you put the words into a Roxy analysis, but none of the thoughtful analysis you are putting into getting someone else into the elim position. I don't have your confidence that she didn't just play a careful Wolf game - where is this confidence coming from?

I just played a game with S~V~S recently, Guitar Mafia, where I railed against her from the get-go. I made several good cases against her, and all game I couldn't get one person to listen to me. I was alive at the end when she and her Wolf team won. So I am not all that surprised to be left alive now, this is actually familiar territory. I don't know if she left me alive in Beans because my voice kept going unheard, or if she wanted the satisfaction of beating me without having to NK me.

[Long Con]

So we're doing mountainous. What's the best way to approach day one of mountainous?

Is this your first mountainous game?

No, just this game's idea of a Day 0 conversation starter.

[Long Con]

Yeah, I'm feeling like suspecting daisy for that vote is putting the cart before the horse. As in, it's only suspicious if Abi or sig are wolves.

On the surface it looks like protecting me, but it isn't. It's just setting up a series of mislims.

It's not really either of those things. I just didn't agree with the logic of suspecting you because you tried to save a Wolf partner, before knowing if there was a Wolf partner saved. How is it "setting up a series of mislims"? What's my Wolf logic there - I'm trying to get Abi and sig yeeted and then you? Why would you be eliminated when they were both Town? That doesn't make sense.

I didn't even pursue their elimination after saying this, so you framing it the way you did is not the greatest look. Why would you say that?

[Long Con]

What do you think of a Michelle/Abigail team? Although my main pairing would be Michelle and S~V~S. Spacedaisy would almost certainly be higher in my rainbow list at this point, because she has participated more and I seem to recall feeling good about her posts. I'd have to reread her to see HOW good I feel, but yeah.

I'm the only person you've never really seemed to suspect. You borderline defend me while still leaving room for you to decide I'm bad. But why not suspect me? Is it because I had put you in my town core? I'm more useful to you as long as I'm in your pocket?

...I don't mean that as dirty as it sounded.

Well, you were second from the bottom on my first rainbow list. I didn't suspect you because you had far fewer posts than most players to analyze. Like Epi and Abi, the content wasn't there to build a strong case for either alignment.

[Long Con]

At the high resistance to chop her D1 I stopped to care about her alignament that much. I will just point at everyone who got cold feet and saved her.
Everyone who sheeped the anti Wilgy trend let me without my top town.

You just shrug and say you don't understand the kill.
Let's look at Syn and the reason why Abi votes for him
Why Epi and not Long Con?
I know why not me, because I was wrong.
And not you because of your defeatist attitude. Get rid of it and help me pls.

What questions do you have?
@Lime Coke

This is the second time you've tried to push me as suspicious for not being killed, without actually doing it. From you, it's just question marks and , but it looks like you want someone else to take it and run with it. If you ask me why I think I'm alive, I think it's so that you can push exactly this agenda.

Was Michelle asking the right questions and it got her dead? Hmm

I was Michelle's top town read, and you could be right about why she died. But it wasn't me that killed her, the one that killed her almost certainly had the idea you just brought up as a reason.

[Long Con]

And the mate? Who would be your guess?

I don't try to pair I think it's too easy to make yourself look unpaired from people and wolfs get away cause people ask this question and can't find anything and go nah can't be wolfs

That's fair.

Who is independently wolfy then?

I'd kill syn Daisy back to back see what happens

a town loss

Is that a solid Daisy townread then?

Hey, you seem like an approachable chap. Why not throw is a Syn-brand rainbow list out here?

An interesting question coming from you actually. Why didn't you ever suspect me? Why did you feel "good" about me? You never gave an answer to that, at least not so far.

Well... you didn't ask before? I'd need to go back and look at your posts before that comment in isolation to give the best answer, because I think most of your content has been produced after it.

This quote does show that Abigail was pretty sure you were one of the Wolves, though.

[Long Con]

I forgot about Spacedaisy. That's NAGL

This is another jab in the same flavour (flavor for Roxy ) of you mentioning twice that "isn't it weird that LC didn't die?" You don't come out and say "I think Spacedaisy could be a Wolf for these reasons", you make sure to mention something about a player as though hoping someone else would pick it up and run with it.

now THIS is interesting. First of all, it aligns you and me, doesn't it? If you somehow flip wolf, boy do I look bad! The craziest part is that I think michelle was just saying she had forgotten I existed in the game and that isn't a good look. But you jump to it being about you and that it's somehow an indication that you are still alive because you are bad.

That is not what this post says. This wasn't about me or you as much as it was about Michelle, and how she approached suspicion on some players.

The only way it "aligns" me and you is that we're both Town if Michelle flips Wolf.

You were Mafia'ing very late last night, so I don't know if you had gotten tired by this point, but you have either lost the plot on the logic for this one, or you're intentionally doing it to shade me.

Why have you not jumped at me like you did at Michelle? I'm asking the same question you interpreted her to be asking. I'm asking the same questions she did ask in other places. Why are you still alive Long Con? Why Abi instead of you? Why Epi instead of you? It doesn't make sense.

I was in bed by the time you said anything about me. You were doing Lime Coke and Roxy when I shut down.

Why am I alive if I'm generally townread? Maybe because my reads are wrong, and the Wolves want to count on me to get this last misyeet in. Maybe it makes me an easy target to BE the last misyeet, which is exactly what happened in Guitar Mafia (despite an obvious townslip, yes I'm still bitter), maybe because Abi's reads were right and she had to go. I'm not laying down to a misyeet that's based on the fact that I'm still breathing.

[Long Con]

Long Con, you don't look particularly good. Just saying.

Most of your points against me were a dubious stretch or a misinterpretation. Just saying.

I have some work to do, then I'll go back and review the vote tallies and the top suspects of the people who died.

Because I may be incorrect, but I think that myself, Long Con, and Roxy have all voiced heavy suspicion of SVS. There is no way she could let us all into end game if she is bad and none of those three are. That would be suicide, assuming I'm correct, which I'll double check at some point. If I am, I can't see SVS as wolf.

This is not a bad point about S~V~S.

Also, I have been thinking about Lime Coke and my concern is his moving to Wilgy. If he is bad, it is the same situation as me. Why would a wolf Lime Coke move to Wilgy at last minute? Why call attention to himself when he doesn't need to? I don't know Lime Coke well enough to say whether or not wolf Lime Coke would do that. I just know for myself, I never would. I can't see the benefit for him to do it and that makes me pause about my assessment of Lime Coke.

Heh, fun that the two sketchy-voters on the Day 1 yeet are in the Final 5. We talked about why a Wolf would or wouldn't last-second vote/move like you and Lime did back on Day 2, and I think it got bogged down in WIFOM. Hindsight shows that there's nothing at all wrong with a vote-move like that, because you both outlasted most others, with relative ease. I wonder if the vote was actually part of the reason? Especially with all three Day 1 vote trains now turned up Town, there's no reason why a Wolf would need to avoid a move like that.

[Long Con]

I would probably want 1 more townread to be good to go.

Yours or from me?

Well from me but I'm taking your townreads seriously.

Feel free to criticize them if you feel I am wrong

Too busy criticizing myself.

Where did he criticize his own or anyone else's reads? Nowhere that I see.

Like literally this is like... awful.

Literally me saying I'm criticizing myself is me being in my own head talking about how much I suck because of my reads being inconsistent in terms of accuracy over the past month of playing mafia.

It's a mental issue about myself playing mafia.

LOL yeah, when I read that, I thought "pretty sure that stuff happens inside the brain for the most part".

[Long Con]

Like off the top of my head Long Con maybe because I've townread him mostly through this and neither of us are dead.

The funny thing is that I think I've always heard about him being a great player.

I think I've maybe played 4 or 5 games with him I don't have a single idea of his skill level still because I think we've always been on opposite sides or threads.

The rumours about me are greatly exaggerated. I am not a great player, I've just been around long enough to grind out lots of wins. I'm wrong more than I'm right with my suspicions, and I am confirmation bias King. Great players are players like Alison, who I've watched keenly dissect a thread in an unarguable way, while maintaining a perfect Town mask... JJJ, whose process and thoroughness lock the conversation into real solving as a group... Macdougall, who can just stomp down hard on the thread and gather up the pieces, finding the Wolves as they run coughing from the dust cloud.

I have a cool highlight reel of astounding feats of very specific gameplay, all situational stuff. Not consistent enough to be called a great player, but I am receptive to bouts of inspiration at times.

[Long Con]

You said I changed my vote already, I didn't change my vote until :59.

You posted at :59, but when I pressed the vote button and it refreshed the votes were already different. I voted first and then tried to post, unsuccessfully. Someone else had moved onto Wilgy before me. But as I point out later in my many posts from tonight your move onto Wilgy is the biggest indicator that you might actually be civ. I just don't understand why you acted as if you didn't know who had broken the tie, when you must have known. And btw, I thought you moved from Abigail, but she still has three, so someone moved onto her too. I would say I need to see who, but all her voters were civ so it doesn't really matter.

Are you lying about seeing my vote in there before you voted?

No I 100% believe I saw you voting before I changed my vote.

My impression of those events were that neither of you saw the others' vote at the time you voted.

[Long Con]

@Long Con How likely is it that I am wrong about Roxy? Your thoughts?

I can't see why you would be left in if you are civ and SVS was mafia. You and I have both expressed suspicion of her. That would mean they would be counting on eliminating me, and convincing you against voting SVS. But you've been shouting against her for a while now.

You said that Roxy is firm with her suspicions, and slow to change, and that's why she's not a Wolf to you. Is that all you look at when judging a player? What's her voting record like? What are the reasons for her suspicions, are they genuine or contrived? It feels like you put the words into a Roxy analysis, but none of the thoughtful analysis you are putting into getting someone else into the elim position. I don't have your confidence that she didn't just play a careful Wolf game - where is this confidence coming from?

I just played a game with S~V~S recently, Guitar Mafia, where I railed against her from the get-go. I made several good cases against her, and all game I couldn't get one person to listen to me. I was alive at the end when she and her Wolf team won. So I am not all that surprised to be left alive now, this is actually familiar territory. I don't know if she left me alive in Beans because my voice kept going unheard, or if she wanted the satisfaction of beating me without having to NK me.

Just noticed that I said "Beans" but meant "Guitar" mafia. Beans is the one where Nanook won the game for us Wolves, slanking the entire time.

[Long Con]

I'm not quite sure where the vote stands but I think my vote will make a tie.

LongC case on SVS has me willing to look more closely in her direction

I did wonder about Daisy with that vote but her explanation vibed with me as I have done similar since threads are locked down now

But I'm going with my gut and voting Syn

I asked Daisy this, and I'm going to ask you.

Can you point out to me the specific parts you especially like about his case?

What I mean when I ask this (and I am going to ask @Spacedaisy this too) is to tell me *specifically* which points he made that you find so convincing. Not a general thing, but specifics, please. Becasue I really want to know.

Here it is. I spoilered the first part which is moreso about Wilgys yeet than about what a fucking menace I am. But I left it there.

Spoiler: show

What's the difference between Wilgy town and Wilgy wolf?

I know this is the current modus operandi of mafia on MU and TS, where everything boils down to claims that we know the differences between someone being town and wolf because people are reliably consistent and they only ever do x as town and y as wolf, but I should inform you and probably everyone else that I'm not going to engage in an argument about meta, because it's not reliable, it's rarely true, and people hide in it all the time

wilgy is a wolf because he's establishing an agenda/worldview that everyone else is now rotating around. he's set the terms and conditions for everyone else's casing, their arguments. he's set it up so that there's uncontested wolf-claims against people who are just outright afk, and then set up easy mischops for later days by picking holes in every little thing someone says with posts that pretend at reason, both of which will be looked at by others as Villager Effort and as a reason to wolf-read the people he nitpicked

Now that you know it's Wilgy town, and you can reverse the polarity on this negative read, what do you think of Wilgy's 'worldview/agenda'?

it's still not great tbh. him being town and also pushing that world/approach confuses me, unless he had some kind of plan to switcheroo in the following days

of course, him picking holes in every little thing someone says, as a villager, would be useful now/later

Ok. I get this view on Wilgy's posts, and I didn't disagree. It wasn't the reason I voted for him, but more like "if he's bad, this is not a trap we want to fall into". I voted for him because of his weird self-contradiction about sig, and I still don't understand how he came up with that stuff honestly. Point is, there was more than one valid reason to suspect him.

That's why an exchange like the following one, where they're discussing Wilgy's yeet, is a huge stretch:

That's egregious

I know, right?

Even I knew Wilgy was town and I read like 3 pages

He was the person most actively solving.

Not liking someone’s philosophy of how mafia should be played doesn’t make them bad .

If Daisy had time to read enough to change from her null-ish stance on Wilgy to voting him out, then she had time to post her vote at the very least.

I could also vote for sig again tbh.

Let's put aside the level of gall it takes to not play, not even vote, and then come in and berate us for voting a guy with more than one strike against him. Here's the thing: hindsight is 20/20. Yup, Wilgy was obviously town... as of the point his role was revealed. Let's not act like we haven't seen Wolf Wilgy absolutely snow everyone into believing he's obvious town, including all three of you.

We've got Michelle, S~V~S, and Abi all wringing their hands and lamenting how this could have happened, and I'll be shocked if there is not a Wolf in that group.

Michelle is sticking to a loose WIFOM against Syn and sig based on their suspicion of her and Wilgy, and she once again poured on the extra "but Wilgy was so obvious town" to try and bolster the suspicion, which I don't like. So, continuing her Day 1 stance. @Michelle voted for Abi and came close to getting her eliminated yesterday, but today it's friendly talk and softball questions. What is your real stance on her? You are not treating her like someone you suspect today. Actually, what's your opinion on Roxy, you said you won't let her down, does that mean that you think she's Town?

Abi is just...

Bad news I'm never gonna be found. Really should've solved me D1

Abi, I enjoy playing with you when you're here, but it's time to make some hard choices, and I think it goes like this: a) get WIM, get playing, b) get replaced, c) get yeeted. There's no shame in choosing option b) if that's what it takes, but your personal forecast there is frustrating.

S~V~S is my top choice of the three as wolf. She voted off the Wilgy wagon:

sig 3 Voters: falcon45ca, S~V~S, DrWilgy

... along with two confirmed Town. She came in here today ready to berate Wilgy voters, and dive right on to the Lowest Hanging Fruit, Spacedaisy, for her stealth Wilgy vote. Lime Coke made the exact same vote, and you haven't even questioned him about it, even though when Daisy did it, it's damning. I get that voting without posting is not ever a good look, but is that good evidence of a wolf? You acknowledged that it's not the greatest move for a Wolf to make, but then decided you still believe it.

And... I just plain don't believe this: "I reread Wilgy to see if there was anything that could have changed her mind from "meh" to voting him, and I couldn't find it." So, you're saying you attempted reread Wilgy's progression through Day 1 from Daisy's perspective somehow to find the point where she most likely decided she suspects him?

Yeah right. There's no way you did that, you're posting fake busywork to look towny. Why would you even bother doing that, we have two days and the answer you're looking for will almost certainly come to light unless Daisy has simply abandoned the game.

[VOTE: S~V~S] aubergine

Also, @Long Con , I noticed this part of the above while rereading :

And... I just plain don't believe this: "I reread Wilgy to see if there was anything that could have changed her mind from "meh" to voting him, and I couldn't find it." So, you're saying you attempted reread Wilgy's progression through Day 1 from Daisy's perspective somehow to find the point where she most likely decided she suspects him?

This confuses me a bit. I don't recall saying anything like that, I said I reread DAISY, not Wilgy. If I implied that somewhere, I'm sorry it wasn't my intention. Reading someone I think is town trying to see why others suspect them is futile, unless you know that person super super well. I know Daisy fairly well, but not enough for that to even be a think i would try to do.

I know at times my wording can be obscure, I run on, etc. I spend alot of time explaining what I *really* meant, both here and irl lol. But Could you point out to me where I said this? Becasue i definitely did not reread Wilgy to see why Daisy voted for him, and am perplexes as to why I would say I did.

No problemo.

...much of it somewhat esoteric disagreements about mafia philosophy. Nothing that Wilgy has not said before in other games, and I think Daisy knows his game better than most. I reread Wilgy to see if there was anything that could have changed her mind from "meh" to voting him, and I couldn't find it.

I snipped this out of a larger quote, click the link for the whole thing. Maybe you did mean to write "Daisy" and not "Wilgy" at the last sentence - it's unclear because you refer to both "her" and "him" later in the sentence, so either name could fit comfortably there.

[Long Con]

Anyway, I am hosting D&D tonight from 6-9pm EST (so in under four hours). I do have some prep work still to do, and I have to shift gears now. So I'll be back here in 8 hours for sure, and maybe I'll peek in once or twice before 6.

[Spacedaisy]

@Long Con How likely is it that I am wrong about Roxy? Your thoughts?

I can't see why you would be left in if you are civ and SVS was mafia. You and I have both expressed suspicion of her. That would mean they would be counting on eliminating me, and convincing you against voting SVS. But you've been shouting against her for a while now.

You said that Roxy is firm with her suspicions, and slow to change, and that's why she's not a Wolf to you. Is that all you look at when judging a player? What's her voting record like? What are the reasons for her suspicions, are they genuine or contrived? It feels like you put the words into a Roxy analysis, but none of the thoughtful analysis you are putting into getting someone else into the elim position. I don't have your confidence that she didn't just play a careful Wolf game - where is this confidence coming from?

I just played a game with S~V~S recently, Guitar Mafia, where I railed against her from the get-go. I made several good cases against her, and all game I couldn't get one person to listen to me. I was alive at the end when she and her Wolf team won. So I am not all that surprised to be left alive now, this is actually familiar territory. I don't know if she left me alive in Beans because my voice kept going unheard, or if she wanted the satisfaction of beating me without having to NK me.

Roxy had less content to ISO, first of all and the reason she wasn’t quoted is that literally nothing she said stood out as wolfy to me. Everything read just like Roxy to me. I’m not 100% convinced, no. I’m not 100% convinced of any of you at this point! It’s too freaking important to get it right for me to be 100% on anyone.

[Spacedaisy]

Yeah, I'm feeling like suspecting daisy for that vote is putting the cart before the horse. As in, it's only suspicious if Abi or sig are wolves.

On the surface it looks like protecting me, but it isn't. It's just setting up a series of mislims.

It's not really either of those things. I just didn't agree with the logic of suspecting you because you tried to save a Wolf partner, before knowing if there was a Wolf partner saved. How is it "setting up a series of mislims"? What's my Wolf logic there - I'm trying to get Abi and sig yeeted and then you? Why would you be eliminated when they were both Town? That doesn't make sense.

I didn't even pursue their elimination after saying this, so you framing it the way you did is not the greatest look. Why would you say that?

My posts were stream of consciousness posting as I read. And I was trying to remove future knowledge from the moment they were posted. You did move to SVS on day 2 and from there on out. It’s definitely a point in your favor.

[Spacedaisy]

I forgot about Spacedaisy. That's NAGL

This is another jab in the same flavour (flavor for Roxy ) of you mentioning twice that "isn't it weird that LC didn't die?" You don't come out and say "I think Spacedaisy could be a Wolf for these reasons", you make sure to mention something about a player as though hoping someone else would pick it up and run with it.

now THIS is interesting. First of all, it aligns you and me, doesn't it? If you somehow flip wolf, boy do I look bad! The craziest part is that I think michelle was just saying she had forgotten I existed in the game and that isn't a good look. But you jump to it being about you and that it's somehow an indication that you are still alive because you are bad.

That is not what this post says. This wasn't about me or you as much as it was about Michelle, and how she approached suspicion on some players.

The only way it "aligns" me and you is that we're both Town if Michelle flips Wolf.

You were Mafia'ing very late last night, so I don't know if you had gotten tired by this point, but you have either lost the plot on the logic for this one, or you're intentionally doing it to shade me.

Why have you not jumped at me like you did at Michelle? I'm asking the same question you interpreted her to be asking. I'm asking the same questions she did ask in other places. Why are you still alive Long Con? Why Abi instead of you? Why Epi instead of you? It doesn't make sense.

I was in bed by the time you said anything about me. You were doing Lime Coke and Roxy when I shut down.

Why am I alive if I'm generally townread? Maybe because my reads are wrong, and the Wolves want to count on me to get this last misyeet in. Maybe it makes me an easy target to BE the last misyeet, which is exactly what happened in Guitar Mafia (despite an obvious townslip, yes I'm still bitter), maybe because Abi's reads were right and she had to go. I'm not laying down to a misyeet that's based on the fact that I'm still breathing.

I do think that you are alive either because your wrong about SVS or you are a wolf.

[Spacedaisy]

Long Con, you don't look particularly good. Just saying.

Most of your points against me were a dubious stretch or a misinterpretation. Just saying.

I have some work to do, then I'll go back and review the vote tallies and the top suspects of the people who died.

Because I may be incorrect, but I think that myself, Long Con, and Roxy have all voiced heavy suspicion of SVS. There is no way she could let us all into end game if she is bad and none of those three are. That would be suicide, assuming I'm correct, which I'll double check at some point. If I am, I can't see SVS as wolf.

This is not a bad point about S~V~S.

Also, I have been thinking about Lime Coke and my concern is his moving to Wilgy. If he is bad, it is the same situation as me. Why would a wolf Lime Coke move to Wilgy at last minute? Why call attention to himself when he doesn't need to? I don't know Lime Coke well enough to say whether or not wolf Lime Coke would do that. I just know for myself, I never would. I can't see the benefit for him to do it and that makes me pause about my assessment of Lime Coke.

Heh, fun that the two sketchy-voters on the Day 1 yeet are in the Final 5. We talked about why a Wolf would or wouldn't last-second vote/move like you and Lime did back on Day 2, and I think it got bogged down in WIFOM. Hindsight shows that there's nothing at all wrong with a vote-move like that, because you both outlasted most others, with relative ease. I wonder if the vote was actually part of the reason? Especially with all three Day 1 vote trains now turned up Town, there's no reason why a Wolf would need to avoid a move like that.

Agreed here. But I would’ve bussed a partner and tried to deep wolf it. Regardless, I don’t think I can put much stock in Lime Coke’s move as a civ move. I don’t get what he’s been saying about the vote because I know for a fact after I voted I saw I wasn’t the tie breaker. There are only two options, if we voted at the exact same moment or he’s lying.

[Spacedaisy]

Yours or from me?

Well from me but I'm taking your townreads seriously.

Feel free to criticize them if you feel I am wrong

Too busy criticizing myself.

Where did he criticize his own or anyone else's reads? Nowhere that I see.

Like literally this is like... awful.

Literally me saying I'm criticizing myself is me being in my own head talking about how much I suck because of my reads being inconsistent in terms of accuracy over the past month of playing mafia.

It's a mental issue about myself playing mafia.

LOL yeah, when I read that, I thought "pretty sure that stuff happens inside the brain for the most part".

I don’t know why but this only sank in when I read this post.

Lime Coke, I apologize if my saying that exacerbated anything for you on that end. I was just reading and while you think it’s obvious what you meant, it wasn’t to me. Different brains work different ways so I didn’t get it.

[Spacedaisy]

You said I changed my vote already, I didn't change my vote until :59.

You posted at :59, but when I pressed the vote button and it refreshed the votes were already different. I voted first and then tried to post, unsuccessfully. Someone else had moved onto Wilgy before me. But as I point out later in my many posts from tonight your move onto Wilgy is the biggest indicator that you might actually be civ. I just don't understand why you acted as if you didn't know who had broken the tie, when you must have known. And btw, I thought you moved from Abigail, but she still has three, so someone moved onto her too. I would say I need to see who, but all her voters were civ so it doesn't really matter.

Are you lying about seeing my vote in there before you voted?

No I 100% believe I saw you voting before I changed my vote.

My impression of those events were that neither of you saw the others' vote at the time you voted.

But one of us had to have voted first and both of us are saying that once we cast our vote we saw the other had already voted. We can’t both be telling the truth about that unless we both voted at exactly the same moment.

[Spacedaisy]

I am not going to vote for either LC. And that's about all I have to say about that.

If it means I go down since LC is so sure I'm bad, and Daisy and Roxy think his case is the bomb, so be it.

But if you are civ, Long Con, as I think you are, we need to have a talk post game about how we read each other. If you're not, excellent game. I totally believe you're sincere, if misguided.

Linki @Spacedaisy take a look at Brads last day of New Vegas. He was civ there, and had similar thoughts.

Here’s the thing SVS, I know for a fact you are wrong about at least one of them because I’m civ. So that leaves me with Roxy being the only option you are willing to vote outside of me and I am not sold on a Roxy. Why are you?

And why do you think you are still alive?

Also, what do you make of me being in a tie with syn and missing the vote?

[Spacedaisy]

I forgot about Spacedaisy. That's NAGL

This is another jab in the same flavour (flavor for Roxy ) of you mentioning twice that "isn't it weird that LC didn't die?" You don't come out and say "I think Spacedaisy could be a Wolf for these reasons", you make sure to mention something about a player as though hoping someone else would pick it up and run with it.

now THIS is interesting. First of all, it aligns you and me, doesn't it? If you somehow flip wolf, boy do I look bad! The craziest part is that I think michelle was just saying she had forgotten I existed in the game and that isn't a good look. But you jump to it being about you and that it's somehow an indication that you are still alive because you are bad.

That is not what this post says. This wasn't about me or you as much as it was about Michelle, and how she approached suspicion on some players.

The only way it "aligns" me and you is that we're both Town if Michelle flips Wolf.

You were Mafia'ing very late last night, so I don't know if you had gotten tired by this point, but you have either lost the plot on the logic for this one, or you're intentionally doing it to shade me.

Why have you not jumped at me like you did at Michelle? I'm asking the same question you interpreted her to be asking. I'm asking the same questions she did ask in other places. Why are you still alive Long Con? Why Abi instead of you? Why Epi instead of you? It doesn't make sense.

I was in bed by the time you said anything about me. You were doing Lime Coke and Roxy when I shut down.

Why am I alive if I'm generally townread? Maybe because my reads are wrong, and the Wolves want to count on me to get this last misyeet in. Maybe it makes me an easy target to BE the last misyeet, which is exactly what happened in Guitar Mafia (despite an obvious townslip, yes I'm still bitter), maybe because Abi's reads were right and she had to go. I'm not laying down to a misyeet that's based on the fact that I'm still breathing.

That is a fair point. Though I was asking that to you earlier, just maybe not so directly?

I’m struggling with this because I really can’t see why SVS would keep three people in who sussed her. Which makes me think it’s Roxy and Lime Coke. I do have concerns about Lime Coke, based on the fact I feel like he is still lying about the vote and I can’t see why.

[Spacedaisy]

My tinfoil is Long Con and SVS being evil together. And when I say evil, I mean they are febs and I’ll probably let them get away with it, lol.

That would explain leaving three in, if she is bad and her partner is sussing her. It would be a heck of a risky move though, betting the third civ wouldn’t follow the other two.

[Thunal33]

The poll time has been updated for Daylight Savings time. It will end at 10 pm US eastern time tomorrow.

@Lime Coke
@Long Con
@Roxy
@S~V~S
@Spacedaisy

[Spacedaisy]

@Long Con How are you feeling about SVS right now? Do you still think she's bad?

[S~V~S]

@Long Con I did reread Wilgy, but only from my own perspective.

[S~V~S]

oops hit submit rather than preview; so i see how it could be taken that I meant it that way, but that would be a weird way for ANYONE to mean that, and I think it's part of that famous confirmation bias that you read it that way.

My tinfoil is Long Con and SVS being evil together. And when I say evil, I mean they are febs and I’ll probably let them get away with it, lol.

That would explain leaving three in, if she is bad and her partner is sussing her. It would be a heck of a risky move though, betting the third civ wouldn’t follow the other two.

LOL, I think we're town teammates together, but LC would be doing the most aggressive bussing ever if we were bad, and I loathe that, tbh. A bit of distancing yeah. A full blown case carried over days? No.It would be an ugly chatroom if we were bad teammates. I bus if i have to, but it's never a choice. I was being town read by much of the thread, and there would be no reason to aggrobus me on a two person team.

[S~V~S]

In situation like this, where if we mislim the mafia win, it's not about who is out, it's about who is still in. They want to keep people in that will be one of two things:

1. Easy to misliim
2. Easy to convince to vote a mislim

*snip*

Neither Roxy nor Lime Coke have come out strong enough to be evaluated against this.

Are you saying I'm neither of these two?

Yeah, kind of. I'm saying you have not passionately gone after anyone enough to be someone that a wolf could count on to mislim, nor have you had that much suspicion on you to be an easy mislim. It's not an accusation, just a statement that I can't apply that consideration to you. I don't question why is Lime Coke still alive. I do question why Long Con and SVS are still alive though.

So the baddies could use his case on me and get me miselimmed. TBH, I expected him to be NK the other night, it's what I would have done if i were bad. NK LC, then come after his suspect for NKing the person pushing me as a baddie. When you're bad nothing is sweeter than manipulating the townies into killing each other.

[S~V~S]

So the baddies could use his case on me and get me miselimmed. TBH, I expected him to be NK the other night, it's what I would have done if i were bad. NK LC, then come after his suspect for NKing the person pushing *THEM* as a baddie. When you're bad nothing is sweeter than manipulating the townies into killing each other.

proofread fail, too many subjects in that sentence lol.

[S~V~S]

Reading this exchange it basically means someone is lying about the timing of their votes. I don't think it's Brad

This whole exchange between them is worth reading; it strarts about post 833 and ends here VV, #859; Brad makes two short nai posts after this one, but this post basically ends the conversation. I look forward to Daisys reply.

You said I changed my vote already, I didn't change my vote until :59.

You posted at :59, but when I pressed the vote button and it refreshed the votes were already different. I voted first and then tried to post, unsuccessfully. Someone else had moved onto Wilgy before me. But as I point out later in my many posts from tonight your move onto Wilgy is the biggest indicator that you might actually be civ. I just don't understand why you acted as if you didn't know who had broken the tie, when you must have known. And btw, I thought you moved from Abigail, but she still has three, so someone moved onto her too. I would say I need to see who, but all her voters were civ so it doesn't really matter.

Are you lying about seeing my vote in there before you voted?

No I 100% believe I saw you voting before I changed my vote.

Saw me voting, what does that mean exactly? That you saw me in the thread? Yeah, I was in the thread. I came in at 3 minutes prior to the deadline and I was going back and forth about Wilgy and sig. I believe it was 9:58 when I pushed the submit button on my Wilgy vote, though I can't say that with certainty. I just know it was 9:59 when I was trying to bang out a quick post to declare my vote in thread, but I wasn't able to submit that in time.

I saw you voted on the poll itself before I changed my vote.

I've done this myself, "seen" someone vote. I looked at the poll before i voted, and noted the votes. I voted, checked the poll to make sure I voted correctly, and someone had changed their vote.

But anyhow, this exchange says someone here in that convo is not being honest, imo.

[Lime Coke]

I apologize for not making an appearance throughout Sunday but DST and a migraine kinda fucked me.

[Spacedaisy]

SVS, i really need you to put down your bias about me because I’m not bad and looking at the people still in the game I’m inclined to think you aren’t either. If we can’t get on the same page we are screwed here. This is not donor due for the mafia, only the civs and that’s why this is do or die for me. I’m telling you that you are wrong about either Brad or long con, assuming I’m correct about you. I am telling you I am not lying and Brad has already admitted once to lying about this. Step back from your tunnel on me or we are going to lose this game. You’re just dismissing things on tone. It takes more than tone. I’m literally the only person you are trying to make a case for. You need to check your gut now because you won’t get another chance.

[Spacedaisy]

I apologize for not making an appearance throughout Sunday but DST and a migraine kinda fucked me.

I’m so sorry. I get migraines and they are awful.