The Syndicate

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:17 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:04 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:07 pm
Aww Creature! It is fine! Awesome meme tbh! I will save it

You didn't fail me. It happens.

My gameplay was, overall, atrocious this game. A mix of having a bad game, busy with jury, and then a general burn out of the game afterwards were not good. I hope I can perform better next time!

GG wolves! Great job!
We didn't kill you because you were doing bad tbh

As in, the reason for us killing you was because you were doing good

I just realized that message can be read both ways lol

Boquise wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:04 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:07 pm
Aww Creature! It is fine! Awesome meme tbh! I will save it

You didn't fail me. It happens.

My gameplay was, overall, atrocious this game. A mix of having a bad game, busy with jury, and then a general burn out of the game afterwards were not good. I hope I can perform better next time!

GG wolves! Great job!

We didn't kill you because you were doing bad tbh

And don't you dare blame me if you are town and we lose, when you initiated the thunderdome on the basis that I could be partnered with anyone, ignored my arguments that I'm not partnered with people, and then decided to lock your vote on me while declaring you won't be around to change it at EOD. You forced my hand, not the other way around.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:46 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:22 pm I don't know if I'll be around for EOD, frankly. My sleep schedules and IRL commitments have not lined up well with EOD timings.

I am just going to [VOTE: finger] aubergine before bed and hope it is her, because finger seems set on me and isn't going to be around EOD, which means if she's villa the game is over regardless.

If I am around for EOD, I will adjust my vote as appropriate.
You say “seems set on me” but you haven’t even attempted to change my mind.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

I don't know what I'm supposed to change your mind on. You're voting me because I "can be paired with anyone". I've given strong arguments for why I'm not paired with Boq, and you haven't addressed that. Creature spent a lot of time today pushing/shading me, and you've argued that scum partners wouldn't push each other today.

Shrug. You can't be around for EOD, you'll have spotty connection until then. I don't know if I myself can be around for EOD. You have declared you are likely just going to lock vote me and leave. Either you are mafia who is just spewing nonsense or you are town who has completely checked out and aren't listening to what I have to say. I do not have time, I do not have energy, and I can barely keep my eyes open.

So I am just going to leave it here. Good night.

I am retiring for the night. I can't keep my eyes open.

I will try to make it for EOD.

I think in the world that finger/Creature is the team then we have already lost since Boq/Rondo/myself suspect each other too much and finger/Creature are just going to prey on us. lol us if so.

Even if it's the case I just vote finger here anyway so it doesn't change my move.

I think if it is finger it is most likely finger/Boq.

I think Boq/Rondo are probably difference checked.

So the main teams I can see are finger/Boq and Rondo/Creature. The former is more likely in my eyes. I still maintain my townread on Rondo; I just don't see why he would unvote there as mafia. So I guess if I had to bet it all on a team it would be finger/Boq anyway.

I don't know if I'll be around for EOD, frankly. My sleep schedules and IRL commitments have not lined up well with EOD timings.

I am just going to [VOTE: finger] aubergine before bed and hope it is her, because finger seems set on me and isn't going to be around EOD, which means if she's villa the game is over regardless.

If I am around for EOD, I will adjust my vote as appropriate.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:00 pm
Creature wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:54 am Boq/Rondo could be a world too, but I feel like Rondo wouldn't bus?
I don’t think mafia would vote their teammate this early in this scenario. Why make the game harder at this point? All you have to do is wait for one town misvote and then both vote there

Votes aren't locked, so it only matters who you end up voting at EOD.

I don't think Boq/Rondo is a team though, given that Boq pushed against my arguments to clear Rondo.

Creature wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:30 am tbh I'm finding it hard wolves decided to nightkill Marmot over Alison then lucy over Alison. That alone should point towards Alison being wolf.

Why not? Both of them were a lot more townread than I was.

Two people have floated the theory that I am mafia with Boq. This theory is nonsense; it should be clear from our interactions last page that we aren't working together. Yes, it could be scum theatre. Anything could be scum theatre. Why do both of us engage in that show instead of simply working together to bury finger in an Alison/Boq world?

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:23 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:54 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:51 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:46 am I genuinely feel like your solving today is sincere. I read your posts after you clarified and I get where you are coming from. Your progression makes sense to me. But the end result is rotten. Which means either you are mafia snowing me with good solving or you are town and are about to lose us the game.
Kinda dislike the "or you are town and are about to lose us the game" here because
1. It is sorta an attempt to manipulate me emotionally, make me feel bad and step down.
2. It puts an unreasonable amount of guilt on me when you and Rondo have had me as likely scum - thus if one or both of you are town, you are about to lose us the game as well with that logic.

like I said, my solving here isnt done.
I don't AtE in that way and no attempt at inducing emotion was meant. I am simply stating that if you are town and you hold the worldview that I am mafia then I see this as being a loss.

I am not locking you scum and am working with you to avert us losing if I falsely suspect you, for that exact reason.

Talk to me about Rondo, you seem to think he is quite possibly scum. I think EOD4 looks really good for him. What are your thoughts on him?
I agree that Rondo is looking really good with his sleep post, and he has been one of my strongest town reads.
The problem is that I have a lot of reasons to town read everyone based on votes.

I am also reacting to him entering today with the agenda to bury me, but i read in mu's discord channel how that can actually be clearing in a lylo.
So I am kinda at loss. I have him as scum mainly because of poe reasons.

What do you think of Finger's explanation on voting Nate?

I don't think it's a particularly telling explanation either way. Finger just had everyone else as townier than him, along with a suspicion that he was faking his spreadsheets to look townie. It doesn't stand out to me as being either a particularly made-up reason or a particularly insightful or townie one.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:51 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:46 am I genuinely feel like your solving today is sincere. I read your posts after you clarified and I get where you are coming from. Your progression makes sense to me. But the end result is rotten. Which means either you are mafia snowing me with good solving or you are town and are about to lose us the game.
Kinda dislike the "or you are town and are about to lose us the game" here because
1. It is sorta an attempt to manipulate me emotionally, make me feel bad and step down.
2. It puts an unreasonable amount of guilt on me when you and Rondo have had me as likely scum - thus if one or both of you are town, you are about to lose us the game as well with that logic.

like I said, my solving here isnt done.

I don't AtE in that way and no attempt at inducing emotion was meant. I am simply stating that if you are town and you hold the worldview that I am mafia then I see this as being a loss.

I am not locking you scum and am working with you to avert us losing if I falsely suspect you, for that exact reason.

Talk to me about Rondo, you seem to think he is quite possibly scum. I think EOD4 looks really good for him. What are your thoughts on him?

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:48 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:44 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:42 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:40 am I don't think it's Creature/Rondo which means Boq/finger can't be T/T. Which means your worldview has a big problem to me.
well the thing is, my worldview has you and Rondo as scum, so that's a problem indeed tbh
Are you mafia Boq?
Nope

Cool.

I am going to work with you like you are town for today and reserve judgement until after. I get that you currently have me as a suspect and I ask for you to work with me at the same time. If at the end of it I think you are mafia I am going to vote you. If you are town then I think I can get there on you and I think you can get there on me by the end of today. (If we are V/V and we can't then I dunno how we are supposed to win anyway.)

I genuinely feel like your solving today is sincere. I read your posts after you clarified and I get where you are coming from. Your progression makes sense to me. But the end result is rotten. Which means either you are mafia snowing me with good solving or you are town and are about to lose us the game.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:42 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:40 am I don't think it's Creature/Rondo which means Boq/finger can't be T/T. Which means your worldview has a big problem to me.
well the thing is, my worldview has you and Rondo as scum, so that's a problem indeed tbh

Are you mafia Boq?

I don't think it's Creature/Rondo which means Boq/finger can't be T/T. Which means your worldview has a big problem to me.

Boq's progression on finger makes sense here then.

But if Boq is town who is right on finger then... the mafia is Creature and Rondo? Not sure I buy that at all. D4 Creature was squatting on Jay and Rondo unvotes Jay's counterwagon so Jay can't snipe a tie. It's like they coordinated to get him killed.

finger/Creature, let's say this is a clear because of the D3 votes
finger/Alison I know is not true and you should too unless you think I was bussing her for days on end
finger/Boq I haven't cleared yet, will need to comb through that giant mess of interactions you quoted, but will keep an open mind on it
finger/Rondo can't be because Rondo didn't care to move his vote at all when finger was in the lead and a townie was the counterwagon

I think that is actually quite good, if I can clear finger/Boq then I can clear finger altogether

Okay I think I get where you're coming from now.

Hmm

I guess if it was Ender 2 Alison 2 then putting Creature at 3 makes less sense if they're mafia together.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:30 am start here
will wait with addressing your points until after tbh

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:15 am some quick notes before i forget with d3 votes

JJJ voters: Ender, Dizzy, Marmot, and Lucy

Ender's eod wagon:
[] = unvotes
JJJ, [Creature], [Rondo], Alison, Marmot, Boq, Lucy, Dizzy
I know from a fact that from Marmot, it is only town voting Ender.
I am also noting that JJJ unvoted Ender for a moment to vote me. Rondo followed.

As for Creature wagon...

Nate, then Dizzy (unvotes, revotes, unvotes), Finger, Rondo.
At the point of Rondo's Creature vote, Ender is at 3, JJJ at 2, Alison at 2.

Rondo is probably not wolf with Creature.

Finger also puts Creature at 3 (Dizzy later unvotes). JJJ at 1 at that time, Ender at 2 (so finger's vote puts Creature in the lead), Alison at 2, Me at 1.
This makes me think that Finger is not wolf with Creature.

When Dizzy votes JJJ, the wagons are JJJ (2), Ender (2), Creature (2), Boq (1), Alison (2).
Alison is the next voter. She votes Ender, putting him in majority.

Alison was voted by three people: Me, Dizzy, Marmot - so i know at least that this is pure.

Gonna check D4 now.

Ok, so you're clearing Finger/Creature off Finger putting Creature in the lead on D3, yes?

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:29 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:25 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 am gonna rp the wolf team stratagem if it is Creature/Fingers/JJJ

Fingers is somehow around late at night to make a quick vote on Nate to save Creature, peaces off immediately afterwards, knowing that that will immediately put sus on her.

Wolves here needs to know that either Fingers get turbo yeeted into the moon the very next day and that wolf flip will look horrible for Creature, or bet their banks on taking me down today (or that Creature somehow thinks he can bury me in a F3, which doesn't happen).

so like, i guess it depends on how the day pans out, but right now Fingers look like a tool for wolves to get me misyeeted today.
Like, this post?

This doesn't read like you're clearing Creature/Finger - you you outright say that Finger is a tool for the wolves to get you misexed. Am I reading you wrong?
I strongly suggest that you read my solving in chronological order.

I am reading in chronological order and I don't understand it.

If the team is Creature/Finger then Finger has to try to save Creature no? Like in that scenario if Creature goes over yesterday I don't think finger can survive 2 day phases. Your argument seems to be that if Finger did that she'd know she'd get turbo'd tomorrow and that Creature would look terrible off her flip... but a) I don't think she can win anyway if Creature goes over, and b) she clearly isn't getting turbo'd today even though Nate went over so where is the idea that finger is going to be auto at F5 coming from?

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:44 am gonna rp the wolf team stratagem if it is Creature/Fingers/JJJ

Fingers is somehow around late at night to make a quick vote on Nate to save Creature, peaces off immediately afterwards, knowing that that will immediately put sus on her.

Wolves here needs to know that either Fingers get turbo yeeted into the moon the very next day and that wolf flip will look horrible for Creature, or bet their banks on taking me down today (or that Creature somehow thinks he can bury me in a F3, which doesn't happen).

so like, i guess it depends on how the day pans out, but right now Fingers look like a tool for wolves to get me misyeeted today.

Like, this post?

This doesn't read like you're clearing Creature/Finger - you you outright say that Finger is a tool for the wolves to get you misexed. Am I reading you wrong?

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:15 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:09 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:07 am JJJ pushed that narrative when he wasnt in danger too tbh.
Did he push you pre-D3? I don't recall this.
JJJ floated early suspicion on me, but I do think it was D3 where he came back with an ISO case on me being wolf. Prior to that, in his charts, he had me as partner possibility with Fingers.

My conclusions rn are:
Creature/Fingers - doesnt make much sense
Rondo/Fingers - doesnt make sense
You/Fingers - doesnt make sense

Therefore, Fingers is town.

Also
Creature/Rondo doesnt make sense either
...i have kinda forgot what i wrote earlier today about the teams so I will have to review. None of this is cemented however.

Interesting. Walk me through your Creature/Fingers unalignment? I think if I can nail down Creature and Fingers as not being together, I could potentially clear Creature (because he doesn't make sense with any other pariing I can think of, either).

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:08 am either way it is more interesting for my reads than yours that you, additionally with your other pushes, push what JJJ was pushing tbh

Cool. What are your conclusions?

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:07 am JJJ pushed that narrative when he wasnt in danger too tbh.

Did he push you pre-D3? I don't recall this.

I would like to hear input from Creature this day phase.

Broken underline quote seems to have infected the entire post.

Bottom line is that I think "but Jay pushed this worldview" is going to be a much less convincing argument to me than the posts you have quoted which you directly argue unalign you. Thank you for them, I'll read through them and think about it.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:44 am Correction: it was D2 and D3, not D1 and D2.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:01 am Also back to this post

Boquise wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:43 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:18 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:15 pm Sure
You are appreciated.

The last thing I was hoping to achieve is the classical night kill analysis. Many people balk at the very idea of trying this, and I think they're wrong. Wifom is wifom blah blah, but we're remiss if we don't at least take a look. Moreover, in a mountainous game, at least one of the layers of wifom does not exist -- there are no doctor dodges. So it'd behoove us to review Mac and see where he sat. What we do with that I don't know right now, but we honor his memory enough to give him a voice.

If that's something that tickles you, I'd love to see what you come up with.
I kinda expected to be the kill because I was during D1 consensus town read[/] with no on-going conflicts with other players. Whereas Mac, also highly town read, had a thing with Wilgy that could be exploited and easier to tinfoil because of Falcon and of site history*.

*What I mean with site history is that I am an unknown variable whilst Mac is a tried gun.

This tells me that Mac's reads can have threatened the woofs tbh

Was Boquise “consensus town read”? I don’t have a read on them yet so to me this reads a lot like saying you are town to try and seem townier, but I don’t recall ever playing with Boquise or paying that much attention yet to others mentions of them

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:58 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:45 am
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:01 am Also back to this post

Boquise wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:43 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:18 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:15 pm Sure

You are appreciated.

The last thing I was hoping to achieve is the classical night kill analysis. Many people balk at the very idea of trying this, and I think they're wrong. Wifom is wifom blah blah, but we're remiss if we don't at least take a look. Moreover, in a mountainous game, at least one of the layers of wifom does not exist -- there are no doctor dodges. So it'd behoove us to review Mac and see where he sat. What we do with that I don't know right now, but we honor his memory enough to give him a voice.

If that's something that tickles you, I'd love to see what you come up with.

I kinda expected to be the kill because I was during D1 consensus town read with no on-going conflicts with other players. Whereas Mac, also highly town read, had a thing with Wilgy that could be exploited and easier to tinfoil because of Falcon and of site history*.

*What I mean with site history is that I am an unknown variable whilst Mac is a tried gun.

This tells me that Mac's reads can have threatened the woofs tbh

Was Boquise “consensus town read”? I don’t have a read on them yet so to me this reads a lot like saying you are town to try and seem townier, but I don’t recall ever playing with Boquise or paying that much attention yet to others mentions of them

I base it off other players' read lists tbh. You didnt read those posts?

Nah I read them. I don’t remember every single mention of you though and my recollection of you was more as null over consensus town, so that’s why I’m asking others.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:55 pm Also thanks to those who answered my question about Boq. The wording is less weird since they do seem to be considered town, however it does still ping me a little when anyone talks about them myself in terms of being so town.
They are still null for me I guess

fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:43 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:49 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:10 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:18 am
Marmot wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:03 am To anyone who is voting for fingersplints, here's a couple links to recent wolf games from her.

Fargo Mafia - ok this was from a year ago. This is one of fs's most active games I've seen, she spent a lot of time early on talking about pretty much anything but reads, and even her reads were not very strong at the start.
Mafia Syndicate Normal Game - this is from a few months ago, fs barely posted, and her posts were all very short, and she does seem stilted in this one.

I'm not seeing either of these things from her. Yes fingersplints doesn't post a lot, but that is normal for her (and really it's that the rest of us just post way too much). What I have seen here is an almost immediate attempt to generate reads, explain them, and she's also considering how the game will play out based on flips and looking ahead, an approach which appears to be lacking in her scum meta.

I'd call her town right now.

Does Finger tend to use aggressive phrasing as town when questioned?

Have I used aggressive phrasing?

Yup tbh!
Or well it is hard to put words on what I identified there tbh

I guess I’m surprised by this. I didn’t think I’d been particularly aggressive this game. But ok

fingersplints wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:45 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:38 am @fingersplints what do you think of Boquise?

If going with the idea someone proposed of one of you/Alison/boq being scum then Boquise would be my best guess.

I didn’t like their comments early on casting them self as “supertown” (they didn’t say that term, I’m just using it here to try and illustrate how I felt when someone comes into the thread talking about themselves being town) but I was told I was wrong and everyone says they are town, so I backed off some.
I’ve also been treading lightly there as they said I had aggressive phrasing and I don’t want to be aggressive.
Umm so yea, all in all not the best feels there but I’ve tried to be careful there as they aren’t a player I know

fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:56 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:51 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:48 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:45 pm
fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:45 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:41 pm

so you peaced out before the day had ended and didnt check back on the thread until just now?

If by “peaced out before the day had ended” you mean “go to bed at a reasonable time for a mother of 2 in the UK” then yes, that is what I did.

The night phase is 24 hours tbh

Yup. It is.

I honestly wish I was mafia and had teammates. Interactions like this would be more amusing to deal with if I wasn’t all on my own.

So we return to my question: that entrance was your first time checking the thread? Not even a peek?
Second sentence is strange. It sounds like you are irritated, but I am not really pushing you in an annoying manner.

I often don’t rush back to follow games after I am out of them. I’m not that invested in this.

Where are you going with this line of questioning? I do think it’s kind of an annoying manner because its weird what you are pushing. What time I went to bed and checked the thread is a waste of time and a diversion from actual scum hunting. This feels very much like someone trying to find anything to justify a suspicion.

^this whole conversation, not just the main quote

fingersplints wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:35 pm
Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:34 pm Also no one cared about my town case on Finger tho so lol

I care

This is ignoring all the progression I have had on Fingers too tbh.

Out of all players, I have been Fingers' main focus. She has spent significant time in trying to scum read me and wreck my town cred. I also think our argument when I asked her questions she disliked and pushed her also unaligns us.

It concerns me Alison that you dont care at all that you are including a wolf's narrative because "it is logically sound".

I'll think about your argument here.

I will not refrain from pushing a narrative that has good reasons for it, even if a wolf has said the same thing. Wolves can have TMI, wolves (especially wolves who are on the chopping block) can do things to mess up their spew. It's certainly not out of Jay's wolf range to push his teammates when he is in trouble. Creature and I think finger herself can corroborate that I can and will adopt worldviews that wolves have pushed when I think there are sound reasons to believe them.

If you think a worldview is rotten, tell me about why. The world runs on logic; when something is true, there will be good reasons to believe it, barring extreme play. When something is false, there will often be reasons to rule it out.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:20 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:48 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:29 am This sounds like you dont want to clear me though.
The me vs. Fingers doesn't make sense as a wolf team
Should I be clearing you?

The most compelling reason I can think of is you mentioning that there's a scum in me/Jay/you, not because of your interactions with fingers.

Do you think you and fingers should be cleared as a wolf team? What interactions unpair you?
I think it is peculiar that you go with a pairing that JJJ was selling.
I think that my whole interaction with Fingers clears that pairing completely, but most specifically D1 and D2

I don't care if he was selling it. If the logic is sound, I think it's fair to expect that pairing to be considered. I don't know why you're getting so jumpy about me thinking about this pairing - it wasn't even the only pairing I considered in the original post.

Could you quote what posts from D1/D2 think unalign you with her? It's been a while since then and I don't remember anything that super dissociates you two.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 9:29 am This sounds like you dont want to clear me though.
The me vs. Fingers doesn't make sense as a wolf team

Should I be clearing you?

The most compelling reason I can think of is you mentioning that there's a scum in me/Jay/you, not because of your interactions with fingers.

Do you think you and fingers should be cleared as a wolf team? What interactions unpair you?

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:45 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:13 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:06 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:12 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:21 amGood morning
Your thoughts on the game?

I was pretty disheartened by Nate's flip.

I don't know if I should be reconsidering my read on Jay's spew, because I thought it looked pretty bad for Nate and I was wrong.
I think I have either miscleared Rondo or that the team is Creature/fingers. The scum reads on Nate yesterday felt kinda impossible to debate against because everyone had decided he was scum tbh
I think I feel good about Rondo still.

We would in this position a day ago, with Nate still on the table as a misexe, if he had not unvoted.

Creature was a lesser clear, in that he placed his vote on Jay at a time where doing so wouldn't prevent Jay from forcing a tie. I liked him yesterday because of Jay spew, but that spew also looked bad for Nate. So I dunno if I should trust it.

I don't think Creature + you is a team.
I know I'm town, and Rondo is my clear. So I guess if Creature is mafia he's probably with finger, yeah.

If finger is mafia she can be with you or Creature.

If you're mafia, for the same reason that Creature is only mafia with finger, then I'd expect you're mafia with finger too.

So maybe we should just exe finger since she's the most likely mafia in every world. But I am not sure of anything right now and will be re-evaluating my read on everyone. I want to check her interactions with Jay.
Noted, I need to review the votals.

What I am noticing here is that you, like JJJ, are pairing me with Fingers. Why do I make sense with Fingers?

You don't make sense with anyone else.

I know I'm town, I'm pretty sure Rondo is town. That leaves Creature, and Finger as the two people you could be paired with. Except you attacked Creature yesterday while Nate was on the chopping block, and I don't see why you'd bus like that when you have an easy misexe. Your frustration at him for not cooperating also feels unpaired.

Therefore if you are mafia the partner you are most likely to have is finger.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:06 am
Alison wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:12 am
Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:21 amGood morning
Your thoughts on the game?

I was pretty disheartened by Nate's flip.

I don't know if I should be reconsidering my read on Jay's spew, because I thought it looked pretty bad for Nate and I was wrong.
I think I have either miscleared Rondo or that the team is Creature/fingers. The scum reads on Nate yesterday felt kinda impossible to debate against because everyone had decided he was scum tbh

I think I feel good about Rondo still.

We would in this position a day ago, with Nate still on the table as a misexe, if he had not unvoted.

Creature was a lesser clear, in that he placed his vote on Jay at a time where doing so wouldn't prevent Jay from forcing a tie. I liked him yesterday because of Jay spew, but that spew also looked bad for Nate. So I dunno if I should trust it.

I don't think Creature + you is a team.
I know I'm town, and Rondo is my clear. So I guess if Creature is mafia he's probably with finger, yeah.

If finger is mafia she can be with you or Creature.

If you're mafia, for the same reason that Creature is only mafia with finger, then I'd expect you're mafia with finger too.

So maybe we should just exe finger since she's the most likely mafia in every world. But I am not sure of anything right now and will be re-evaluating my read on everyone. I want to check her interactions with Jay.

Boquise wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:21 amGood morning

Your thoughts on the game?

I was pretty disheartened by Nate's flip.

I don't know if I should be reconsidering my read on Jay's spew, because I thought it looked pretty bad for Nate and I was wrong.

Are votes locked, and if so, do we have to vote in thread?

I am here.

I think the most important conclusion I drew from that is that Boq looks good off Jay spew. The other points just reinforced reads I already have and increased my confidence in them.

tl;dr conclusion from D0-D2 Jay spew:

- Boq and Creature look good off it. (Rondo and lucy also look good, though I think most people have them cleared anyway.)
- Nate looks bad. Finger a little bad.
- Jay was almost certainly making very opportunistic pushes on early on, and it might be worth reflecting on which LHF he didn't feel inclined to push, because he was very happy to push people like falcon, Wilgy, and Ender. Names that spring to mind include Nate, finger, and Rondo. I suspect the first two, and think the third is almost certainly town.

D2

- Jay says he wants to find mafia by looking at who had the worst looking votes on falcon, who was the D1 misexe. This may suggest that scum were hiding offwagon, and that Jay's scrutiny of the falcon wagon would largely turn up town voters. Offwagon voters that haven't flipped are: Rondo, Creature, Boq.
- Asks Wilgy to do two-way interactive reads. Wilgy is not the person I'd have chosen for this task, in terms of playstyle, which suggests that maybe Jay was hoping to give him some nonsensical busywork.
- Shows enthusiasm towards Nate's offer to give VCA and vote count data.
- Tells Marmot that we should think carefully about why Mac died. Given that Mac died townreading Jay, and having an "auto list" of Dizzy, Falcon, Wilgy and Creature, I think it's safe to surmise that he wanted to push the "auto list" as being something that we should follow. Good look for Creature in any case.
- Unaligns Boq and Wilgy because Boq wrote that he respected my read on Wilgy. I don't really get that. I don't know what the scum agenda in it is, since we know Wilgy isn't scum so I dunno what narrative he was trying to push with that.
- Jay invites Marmot to talk more about Boq's suspicion of him. Looks in the vein of his previous posts, where he picks T/T pairs who suspect each other and invites them to expand on their suspicions or to respond to the person suspecting them. Points for Boq, as it looks like he's almost trying to bait Marmot into OMGUSing Boq.
- Characterizes Nate as a "low-key easy target". I don't recall Nate taking much heat D1 or D2, which makes this an odd observation. He could easily be trying to protect his teammate here by making him look like an innocent LHF.
- Jay invites Nate to talk about lucy's scumread of him. In the same vein as his previous posts like this. Points for Nate, here.
- Votes Creature D2, claims Creature posts feel like they're being produced by a machine. Points for Creature.
- Complains about Rondo's thought process being unreadable, outs a mild scumread on fingersplints, but never does anything with it. I dunno if I should make anything of those things; I don't feel confident drawing conclusions just from that, but I am listing it since it caught my eye.
- Backs up Marmot's meta defense of finger. I don't really get his progression from saying he has concerns on finger to saying Marmot is probably right about finger being town. I'd say it's... light negative points for finger, since it looks a bit like he dropped his scumread on his partner when it became easy to, but it could also be TMI.
- Boquise asks Jay who he'd cop check if he had one. Jay says Wilgy, as a Wilgy green flip would give lots of good info and a Wilgy red flip would break the game open because he's dissociated with half the game. Boq is skeptical about this response, and feels that Jay is dismissive of his exercise. I don't put much stock in Jay offhandedly saying he'd want to cop check a townie, but I do put stock in Boq questioning it. The exchange feels authentic and unteamed from Boq. Points for him.

D1

- I out a townread of Creature, and Jay says my viewpoint is reasonable, but that he continues to be pinged by Creature. This reads to me like a mafioso looking for an excuse to continue wolfreading an LHF when a townie furnishes reasons to believe otherwise. More points for Creature.
- Jay goes around doing the usual wolf agenda stuff of inciting violence between townies. He fans the flames between Seanzie and falcon as well as Rondo and myself, encouraging us to expand on our scumreads for each other. Between his push on Creature and his open incitement of V/V violence, I think Jay is in a fairly opportunistic mode right now. He's established a comfortable position in the town after D0, and he's just looking to put townies in bad positions.
- Jay shades Rondo for voting me after saying he wouldn't OMGUS me. In this context, Rondo had just outed some suspicions of me and criticizes my logic; I think characterizing it as an OMGUS and an inconsistency is very much an attempt to paint Rondo in a bad light, knowing I am already tunnelled on him. Even more town points for Rondo here.
- Jay outs a scumread on Wilgy. interpreting his actions as pushing a scummy narrative. I question that interpretation, citing an alternative way of seeing it that's not townie, and ask him why he figured it was the first interpretation. Jay says my alternative is "plausible", but then claims that he's incredulous that Wilgy is telling the truth and says it's probably "just bull". This is the second time that I've approached him with a correct read and he's placated me with an empty agreement ("your read is plausible", "your read is reasonable") but then diverts straight into discrediting/disagreeing with me. Not to be egoistical, but I get the sense that he was kinda treading on eggshells around me, trying to be careful not to piss me off, especially when I'm defending the people he was trying to push (Creature and Wilgy).
- Jay makes a big case on falcon. Just standard mafia pushing town stuff. The only notable thing is that he sponges off an observation by Nate in doing so. I'm not sure how to interpret that, with regard to Nate's alignment, though.
- Outs a townread of Nate, saying his posts "inspire a sense of unnerving calm in me", but then claims that the read is "meaningless" and "Nate seems okay". It's an odd way to treat Nate, and the hedging comes off to me as being likely to come from someone talking about the partner. It doesn't contain the kind of effusive likeability that he's treated people like lucy or Boq with.

I'm currently digging through Jay's ISO for spew, focusing on D1 and D2 more strongly (as mentioned before). I'm not going to quote every post because that's a headache, but I'm going to outline general observations and conclusions, and if you want some quotes to illustrate specific observations you're interested in, let me know.

D0
- I think Jay entered the game with a focus on pocketing townies. He projects a lot of energy, enthusiasm, and cheer, and tries to get people to like him by engaging with them in a friendly manner. He also throws a lot of townreads around to get townies to like him; for instance, he has lucy (who I think is very likely town) as a strong townread and gives approving credit to Seanzie (who is flipped town) for a fairly thin read.
- In this context, his inordinate focus on Boq looks good for him, insofar as it reads as though Jay is attempting to pocket Boq along with the rest of the town. Calling Boq an "expert", saying his vibes/entrance were good, etc. read to me as an attempt to ingratiate himself with a strong town player. The "deeply spiritual" read in particular is not one that I'd expect him to make on a mafia buddy.
- Ender suspects that Jay is mafia and has a partner in his town list (lucy, Boquise, Seanzie). He lightly deflects the accusation and focuses on pocketing Ender by calling his exchange "authentic". I'm not sure how to interpret this reaction, as far as the alignments of the three people on the list go. I could see him reacting that way either way.
- His first push of the game is on Creature. I think this is a good look for Creature; he gets voted out fairly often, and I specifically have a history of tunnelling him fairly hard in games. I think this reads more to me like a mafia fishing for an easy suspect, rather than a vote on a buddy, which would be rather risky here.

fingersplints wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:12 am
Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:02 am Why do you suspect lucy could have been faking her EOD play in cahoots with Jay, but not Rondo? Do you townread Rondo independently/scumread lucy independently?
Yes this. Independent read
But I’m taking EOD into consideration, so unlikely to vote there today which would leave me with Nate or Boq more likely (also still possible to be you but seem more town to me)
If I get time today I’ll try and reread Lucy to make sense of why I feel that way. But my time might be better spent on deciding if a Nate and boq team fit with Jay as that’s who I’m left with

Why does Boq insist on a wolf in Alison/Boq/Jay if the team is Boq/Jay/Nate?

Why do you suspect lucy could have been faking her EOD play in cahoots with Jay, but not Rondo? Do you townread Rondo independently/scumread lucy independently?

But in a Nate/finger world, why does Nate defend Boq here? Surely Boq is the one misexe they can conceivably obtain?

I think Nate/finger is the world that makes the most sense to me here.

Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 09, 2022 10:21 pm What about Boq/Jay on D3 looked T/T to you specifically? Just the "olive branch" thing?

Why did Ender/Dizzy's flips not shake your view of that at all?

Answer the question please. (Or quote where you did if I didn't see it.)

Four correct clears means that we have a POE that automatically wins the game. I know I am town and I have three people I am clearing, which gives me a POE I am fairly certain wins the game. If everyone else agrees with my three clears (lucy, Rondo, Creature), then being able to find a confident town in Alison, finger, Boquise, or Nate wins us the game.

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