Game of Champions- Merged Thread [GAME OVER- SERIAL KILLER WINS]

[WindwardAway]

Sorry btw I'm making dinner for guests so I'm sorta half here

[DrWilgy]

Nope. Still doesn't check out.

leetic said this in RESPONSE to you saying, "you should ONLY vote within Wilgy/me today. Davos's flip should confirm to you that the Landlord is on the East side and can only be one of the two of us."

If leetic has civilian information, then leetic is breaking the rules, but the response doesn't make sense in that context as a reply to you.

I don't think that's the case. I think leetic flat out goofed.

I think leetic was just saying that Davos could've taken up a second landlord slot without being a separate player, though. Which I'm not sure I agree with, because then that would be 3 landlords and a puppet, which feels a little off.

If that one feels off to you, why did no one jump to the opposition of the Davos yeet? If there are 2 remaining landlord voices in the game, why weren't they pushing for end game?

It would've been easy enough to do.

[DrWilgy]

I don't really suspect Epi, either, because they moved their vote after I unvoted Davos, and I can't think of a reason why a wolf would rather flip a sock puppet than someone who's a mislunch.

But you GG'd me WHILE thinking this?

It was because of Epi's timing, though. Idk, I've been rethinking this all day and I feel like I'd rather flip Delta, except that I still believe you're Davos's owner.

And on the topic of Davos, yes, I remember what you said about how Scrappy and Davos came from games with different sock puppet mechanics. But if anything, I believe that would still make it more likely Scrappy mightve been an external player (for a total number of players that is odd) and Davos is a player in the game (not adding an extra to the count).

But then we're back to anyone from our thread Nutella and that still fails to make sense.

[DrWilgy]

So they were town and wolf aligned but didn't count?

[Delta]

So they were town and wolf aligned but didn't count?

possibly? At least I think so

They were tied to people that were parts of town/wolf but werent separate players themselves, hence 'by proxy'

[DrWilgy]

It seems Epi has already realized his mistake, but I'll go over the logic of Brad being Davos just to be sure. Cape90's role PM said that they were the only one who could see both threads, so Davos can't be anyone from my side, and Davos flipped as a wolf, meaning they can't be anyone who flipped town or ITP. Thus, there are only three people who Davos could possibly be: Brad, WWA, and Wilgy. Now look at the last day's lynch. Both WWA and Wilgy gave up a lynch on me (and on WWA in Wilgy's case) to get rid of Davos, with Davos also crossvoting WWA which would not be ideal if they were w/w. Keep in mind that if there is a living landlord remaining, having Davos alive would give them a huge advantage over the other team, and I don't see why they'd give it up so easily. Further, Davos's behavior does fit in with w!Brad's behavior when he was sent into my thread in Severance, so it does make sense.

Seems to me that a landlord would be willing to flip Davos if it gave them a chance to save themselves, if they didn't think they could build a wagon on anyone else. Especially if it's the one controlling the puppet; it would basically function as distancing from a teammate, except against their own puppet account.

This isn't super important, though, because Wilgy can still be an arbiter if I'm wrong. But my belief is that the arbiter is on the West side of the thread and that Wilgy was controlling Davos, because of what I said before about having a completely dead landlord team in a XyLo situation save for Davos.

"It's always Wilgy, but even if I'm wrong it's Wilgy? But it's also Delta"

WWA, assuming that it's not me, where do the remaining wolves lie?

[DrWilgy]

My view is this:

Delta: Landlord

DrWilgy: Arbiter

Didn't you argue against me being an Arbiter previously?

[DrWilgy]

I also do not think leetic or WWA would kill sig. That's a Wilgy move.

Why?

[WindwardAway]

Nope. Still doesn't check out.

leetic said this in RESPONSE to you saying, "you should ONLY vote within Wilgy/me today. Davos's flip should confirm to you that the Landlord is on the East side and can only be one of the two of us."

If leetic has civilian information, then leetic is breaking the rules, but the response doesn't make sense in that context as a reply to you.

I don't think that's the case. I think leetic flat out goofed.

I think leetic was just saying that Davos could've taken up a second landlord slot without being a separate player, though. Which I'm not sure I agree with, because then that would be 3 landlords and a puppet, which feels a little off.

If that one feels off to you, why did no one jump to the opposition of the Davos yeet? If there are 2 remaining landlord voices in the game, why weren't they pushing for end game?

It would've been easy enough to do.

Well, leetic opposed it. But I don't count Davos as a separate voice from whoever the last landlord is because I'm still under the assumption they were controlled.

[WindwardAway]

I don't really suspect Epi, either, because they moved their vote after I unvoted Davos, and I can't think of a reason why a wolf would rather flip a sock puppet than someone who's a mislunch.

But you GG'd me WHILE thinking this?

It was because of Epi's timing, though. Idk, I've been rethinking this all day and I feel like I'd rather flip Delta, except that I still believe you're Davos's owner.

And on the topic of Davos, yes, I remember what you said about how Scrappy and Davos came from games with different sock puppet mechanics. But if anything, I believe that would still make it more likely Scrappy mightve been an external player (for a total number of players that is odd) and Davos is a player in the game (not adding an extra to the count).

But then we're back to anyone from our thread Nutella and that still fails to make sense.

Probably a bus drive if it came from you. All I know is that it wasn't a redirect and also that I don't believe it was on purpose from our side. But I firmly believe the kill came from whoever is in the west.

[WindwardAway]

It seems Epi has already realized his mistake, but I'll go over the logic of Brad being Davos just to be sure. Cape90's role PM said that they were the only one who could see both threads, so Davos can't be anyone from my side, and Davos flipped as a wolf, meaning they can't be anyone who flipped town or ITP. Thus, there are only three people who Davos could possibly be: Brad, WWA, and Wilgy. Now look at the last day's lynch. Both WWA and Wilgy gave up a lynch on me (and on WWA in Wilgy's case) to get rid of Davos, with Davos also crossvoting WWA which would not be ideal if they were w/w. Keep in mind that if there is a living landlord remaining, having Davos alive would give them a huge advantage over the other team, and I don't see why they'd give it up so easily. Further, Davos's behavior does fit in with w!Brad's behavior when he was sent into my thread in Severance, so it does make sense.

Seems to me that a landlord would be willing to flip Davos if it gave them a chance to save themselves, if they didn't think they could build a wagon on anyone else. Especially if it's the one controlling the puppet; it would basically function as distancing from a teammate, except against their own puppet account.

This isn't super important, though, because Wilgy can still be an arbiter if I'm wrong. But my belief is that the arbiter is on the West side of the thread and that Wilgy was controlling Davos, because of what I said before about having a completely dead landlord team in a XyLo situation save for Davos.

"It's always Wilgy, but even if I'm wrong it's Wilgy? But it's also Delta"

WWA, assuming that it's not me, where do the remaining wolves lie?

My assumption is that it's you and Delta. There's no way it's not you, because of the Davos flip, unless Leetic is right and it was tied to Brad. But Davos was tied to someone who can only logically be in east.
I guess if I assume it was Brad and not you controlling Davos, I might reconsider leetic again, but I'm not particularly inclined to today.

[DrWilgy]

Some thoughts as the kids pull me away again and I'm done with the skim.

WWA's worldview is wrong and comes from a slot where they at least think they know the state of the game. This reeks of TMI. Their thoughts on who the arbiter is almost feels secondary.

The thought that the Nutella kill comes from Epi/Leetic is somewhat undermined by the kill coming directly from Davos. Davos could've killed the slot and hoped to coast on the remaining PoE.

Epi's "Wilgy killed Sig" feels like yet another arbitrary argument towards me, but as I've seen one from everyone this game, maybe I'm the problem. My issue with suspecting Epi, is I agree with the thoughts on Leetics interactions with Davos.

Leetics actions, as argued yesterday, continue to be in alignment with Davos, which doesn't necessarily cause the Davos submitting the Nutella kill to be as Nutella kill theory breaking.

Delta I continue to have very little opinions on.

Everyone can't be wrong on the puppet mechanics, so I'm probably incorrect to be obtuse against them, but it still sits wrong that we are assuming so much. I'd like for players to review where their assumptions on mechanics came from as that may help me. Leetic going from assuming that the puppet can be taken care of via killing the owner to suddenly not, in addition to the constant argument that Cape being the only "player" that can see both threads feels more and more like mechanical opportunism, but I recognize that I'm biased at this point.

[DrWilgy]

It seems Epi has already realized his mistake, but I'll go over the logic of Brad being Davos just to be sure. Cape90's role PM said that they were the only one who could see both threads, so Davos can't be anyone from my side, and Davos flipped as a wolf, meaning they can't be anyone who flipped town or ITP. Thus, there are only three people who Davos could possibly be: Brad, WWA, and Wilgy. Now look at the last day's lynch. Both WWA and Wilgy gave up a lynch on me (and on WWA in Wilgy's case) to get rid of Davos, with Davos also crossvoting WWA which would not be ideal if they were w/w. Keep in mind that if there is a living landlord remaining, having Davos alive would give them a huge advantage over the other team, and I don't see why they'd give it up so easily. Further, Davos's behavior does fit in with w!Brad's behavior when he was sent into my thread in Severance, so it does make sense.

Seems to me that a landlord would be willing to flip Davos if it gave them a chance to save themselves, if they didn't think they could build a wagon on anyone else. Especially if it's the one controlling the puppet; it would basically function as distancing from a teammate, except against their own puppet account.

This isn't super important, though, because Wilgy can still be an arbiter if I'm wrong. But my belief is that the arbiter is on the West side of the thread and that Wilgy was controlling Davos, because of what I said before about having a completely dead landlord team in a XyLo situation save for Davos.

"It's always Wilgy, but even if I'm wrong it's Wilgy? But it's also Delta"

WWA, assuming that it's not me, where do the remaining wolves lie?

My assumption is that it's you and Delta. There's no way it's not you, because of the Davos flip, unless Leetic is right and it was tied to Brad. But Davos was tied to someone who can only logically be in east.
I guess if I assume it was Brad and not you controlling Davos, I might reconsider leetic again, but I'm not particularly inclined to today.

"There's no way it's not you, because of the Davos flip" - but this contradicts your thoughts that I am an arbiter if not landlord?

You are looking for reasons to shove and don't actually believe what you are saying.

[DrWilgy]

[VOTE: WWA] aubergine

I think you accidentally overstepped your shove of me.

[DrWilgy]

Yeah, I've been chilling here thinking myself in circles about you this past hour.

Landlord WWA is even less likely to kill Nutella as that creates a risky Landlord, Landlord, Town PoE which is losing.

Town WWA's first assumption SHOULD be that I'm Arbiter as 2 landlords from their thread had been found and point 1 applies to me as well

It's only Arbiter WWA, who would argue that there's still an landlord pilot over that I'm just an Arbiter, as they know I can't be the remaining Arbiter. The mentions of "could still be an Arbiter" are unsubstantiated and just serve as "yeah I'm totally still considering that there's an arbiter in our thread."

[DrWilgy]

Like, where is the question, "if Davos is only proxy, and there's still a landlord in our thread, where's the Arbiter proxy?"

That inherently makes the threads uneven, but the conclusion that, in spite of that, I must be landlord (but maybe possibly arbiter) is wild to me.

[leetic]

I don't see why the idea of Brad being Davos should be so easily discounted. After all, it has been shown twice that socks don't die at the same time as their owners. Doing the bare minimum to avoid spewing is something I would easily see Brad doing. Still, if there is a remaining landlord, that would suggest that the arbiters have some sort of ace up their sleeve or, worse, a fifth member. If it's the former, there's at least a 3/4 chance said ace is dead, and if it's the latter, town is kind of screwed here anyway unless we get very lucky with crossfire.

[DrWilgy]

I don't see why the idea of Brad being Davos should be so easily discounted. After all, it has been shown twice that socks don't die at the same time as their owners. Doing the bare minimum to avoid spewing is something I would easily see Brad doing. Still, if there is a remaining landlord, that would suggest that the arbiters have some sort of ace up their sleeve or, worse, a fifth member. If it's the former, there's at least a 3/4 chance said ace is dead, and if it's the latter, town is kind of screwed here anyway unless we get very lucky with crossfire.

I'm not discounting it, but I am wondering what it gets us.

If we assume Davos is Brad and their goal was avoiding spewing, then we continue looking for the wolf assuming that the thread splits are now uneven.

If the Arbiters have 2 remaining and the game started at like a 5-4.5-1-1 split, then we should be able to remove at least 1 if not both remaining via assoc. Also means we have to hit an Arbiter this cycle or the game is toasted.

[DrWilgy]

In other words, if true we worry that we may be in Arbiter controlled lylo and if we survive we hope that crossfire removes a W and not a civ.

[DrWilgy]

Bleh, if we are in Arbiter controlled lylo, WWA's stance continues to make sense, but again confbias.

Also if 2 WWA has to be it because of the thread split, but eh.

[Epignosis]

Ctrl+fing "Epi" in Ricochet's ISO gives 41 results, but the amount of substantial interactions is far fewer, with the one I quoted being the only really notable one. It seems Ricochet was trying to use Epi to jumpstart a vote on Delta, possibly in an attempt to protect falcon and/or Lemonfairy.

Control F-ing Epi usually results in a lot of fun for the controller and...

Wait, where are you going?

[Epignosis]

Delta's most likely Landlord.

Wilgy is on the other team.

I dont think I can be off mech?

Davos flipped Landlord-aligned & I really disagree with the idea that the person controlling Davos is dead here lol

I think you're a Landlord. That has always been my suspicion of you.

[Epignosis]

I don't really suspect Epi, either, because they moved their vote after I unvoted Davos, and I can't think of a reason why a wolf would rather flip a sock puppet than someone who's a mislunch.

But you GG'd me WHILE thinking this?

You got GG'd long after the fact.

[Epignosis]

I don't really suspect Epi, either, because they moved their vote after I unvoted Davos, and I can't think of a reason why a wolf would rather flip a sock puppet than someone who's a mislunch.

But you GG'd me WHILE thinking this?

It was because of Epi's timing, though. Idk, I've been rethinking this all day and I feel like I'd rather flip Delta, except that I still believe you're Davos's owner.

And on the topic of Davos, yes, I remember what you said about how Scrappy and Davos came from games with different sock puppet mechanics. But if anything, I believe that would still make it more likely Scrappy mightve been an external player (for a total number of players that is odd) and Davos is a player in the game (not adding an extra to the count).

Didn't leetic (and my dumbass) point out that Lime Coke was Davos?

[Epignosis]

My view is this:

Delta: Landlord

DrWilgy: Arbiter

Didn't you argue against me being an Arbiter previously?

Shit, probably. I say things.

[WindwardAway]

It seems Epi has already realized his mistake, but I'll go over the logic of Brad being Davos just to be sure. Cape90's role PM said that they were the only one who could see both threads, so Davos can't be anyone from my side, and Davos flipped as a wolf, meaning they can't be anyone who flipped town or ITP. Thus, there are only three people who Davos could possibly be: Brad, WWA, and Wilgy. Now look at the last day's lynch. Both WWA and Wilgy gave up a lynch on me (and on WWA in Wilgy's case) to get rid of Davos, with Davos also crossvoting WWA which would not be ideal if they were w/w. Keep in mind that if there is a living landlord remaining, having Davos alive would give them a huge advantage over the other team, and I don't see why they'd give it up so easily. Further, Davos's behavior does fit in with w!Brad's behavior when he was sent into my thread in Severance, so it does make sense.

Seems to me that a landlord would be willing to flip Davos if it gave them a chance to save themselves, if they didn't think they could build a wagon on anyone else. Especially if it's the one controlling the puppet; it would basically function as distancing from a teammate, except against their own puppet account.

This isn't super important, though, because Wilgy can still be an arbiter if I'm wrong. But my belief is that the arbiter is on the West side of the thread and that Wilgy was controlling Davos, because of what I said before about having a completely dead landlord team in a XyLo situation save for Davos.

"It's always Wilgy, but even if I'm wrong it's Wilgy? But it's also Delta"

WWA, assuming that it's not me, where do the remaining wolves lie?

My assumption is that it's you and Delta. There's no way it's not you, because of the Davos flip, unless Leetic is right and it was tied to Brad. But Davos was tied to someone who can only logically be in east.
I guess if I assume it was Brad and not you controlling Davos, I might reconsider leetic again, but I'm not particularly inclined to today.

"There's no way it's not you, because of the Davos flip" - but this contradicts your thoughts that I am an arbiter if not landlord?

You are looking for reasons to shove and don't actually believe what you are saying.

Nah, I'm not looking for reasons. I believe you have to be Davos's puppetmaster, and if you were town I would've expected you to push me for the same reason earlier in the day. But you put effort into building a case on me where there didn't need to be. I don't need to build a case on you because you have to be a wolf.

[WindwardAway]

Yeah, I've been chilling here thinking myself in circles about you this past hour.

Landlord WWA is even less likely to kill Nutella as that creates a risky Landlord, Landlord, Town PoE which is losing.

Town WWA's first assumption SHOULD be that I'm Arbiter as 2 landlords from their thread had been found and point 1 applies to me as well

It's only Arbiter WWA, who would argue that there's still an landlord pilot over that I'm just an Arbiter, as they know I can't be the remaining Arbiter. The mentions of "could still be an Arbiter" are unsubstantiated and just serve as "yeah I'm totally still considering that there's an arbiter in our thread."

Because no puppet flipped with "by proxy is an arbiter"??? Like wtf are you on about, there was no arbiter puppet. Of course I'm going to say you're a landlord, because Davos flipped with "by proxy is a landlord" attached to their flip.

[WindwardAway]

I don't see why the idea of Brad being Davos should be so easily discounted. After all, it has been shown twice that socks don't die at the same time as their owners. Doing the bare minimum to avoid spewing is something I would easily see Brad doing. Still, if there is a remaining landlord, that would suggest that the arbiters have some sort of ace up their sleeve or, worse, a fifth member. If it's the former, there's at least a 3/4 chance said ace is dead, and if it's the latter, town is kind of screwed here anyway unless we get very lucky with crossfire.

Because I believe the puppet would've died if its puppetmaster had flipped. I don't see enough evidence to believe that Brad has been controlling it.

[WindwardAway]

Bleh, if we are in Arbiter controlled lylo, WWA's stance continues to make sense, but again confbias.

Also if 2 WWA has to be it because of the thread split, but eh.

Why are you so worried about arbiter-controlled LyLo? There are no puppets left, a landlord puppet just flipped but their owner did not, and so presumably we are all town vs 1 arbiter, 1 landlord.

[WindwardAway]

I don't really suspect Epi, either, because they moved their vote after I unvoted Davos, and I can't think of a reason why a wolf would rather flip a sock puppet than someone who's a mislunch.

But you GG'd me WHILE thinking this?

It was because of Epi's timing, though. Idk, I've been rethinking this all day and I feel like I'd rather flip Delta, except that I still believe you're Davos's owner.

And on the topic of Davos, yes, I remember what you said about how Scrappy and Davos came from games with different sock puppet mechanics. But if anything, I believe that would still make it more likely Scrappy mightve been an external player (for a total number of players that is odd) and Davos is a player in the game (not adding an extra to the count).

Didn't leetic (and my dumbass) point out that Lime Coke was Davos?

I don't believe that Davos wouldn't have flipped if we had flipped the remaining landlord first.

[WindwardAway]

Idc if I have to thunderdome Wilgy for this. This is what I was calling for at SoD, only he or I can be the puppetmaster to Davos. Davos's role said they were a landlord by proxy, meaning they were attached to a landlord whom I believe is currently in the game. I do not believe they were attached to Brad. I believe Wilgy is trying to worm his way out of being caught ad Davos's owner.

[WindwardAway]

Idc if I have to thunderdome Wilgy for this. This is what I was calling for at SoD, only he or I can be the puppetmaster to Davos. Davos's role said they were a landlord by proxy, meaning they were attached to a landlord whom I believe is currently in the game. I do not believe they were attached to Brad. I believe Wilgy is trying to worm his way out of being caught *as* Davos's owner.

EBWOP

But also I think it's obvious he's trying to make up a case on me when he knows he can't push me as Davos's puppetmaster. He's cornered, and he can really only push me today.

[Epignosis]

[VOTE: DrWilgy] aubergine

[Epignosis]

I trust you and I trust leetic. Let's end this.

[Epignosis]

in addition to the constant argument that Cape being the only "player" that can see both threads feels more and more like mechanical opportunism,

What argument?

viewtopic.php?p=1107584#p1107584

This is confirmed by the hosts.

[WindwardAway]

I'm ngl, Wilgy's claim that my worldview is wrong kind of makes me think he actually isn't the landlord and I've caught him for the wrong reasons, and he's really the arbiter instead.

[WindwardAway]

The thought that the Nutella kill comes from Epi/Leetic is somewhat undermined by the kill coming directly from Davos. Davos could've killed the slot and hoped to coast on the remaining PoE.

Leetics actions, as argued yesterday, continue to be in alignment with Davos, which doesn't necessarily cause the Davos submitting the Nutella kill to be as Nutella kill theory breaking.

I didn't comment on this earlier, but yes, I thought I'd said something similar yesterday when I was pushing for us to acknowledge that Davos was a realistic possibility of a wolf. That Davos OR someone from West would be able to intentionally make the nutella kill to incriminate Wilgy/me. The wrench in that theory now is that Davos flipped as a proxy and not as a wolf on their own, meaning that even if Davos made the nutella kill, it still came from someone else in the game.

And you can yell at me for setup spec but I somehow doubt that a sock puppet would be allowed to be assigned a kill if there's a team member still alive. I have my doubts that Davos would be alive at all if the puppetmaster is dead, too. Plus, the kill could've come from the other wolf team, instead, and imo if it was an Arbiter kill then it definitely came from the West (hence my statement that the Arbiter is likely from the West Facility and the remaining Landlord is Wilgy).

[WindwardAway]

If Davos is Brad's puppet and Wilgy is town, then the nutella kill would have come from the West for sure (assuming I'm right and a puppet can't carry a factional kill). Then it could realistically be a kill from either team.

[WindwardAway]

Actually, now that I'm thinking about this more, even if Davos's owner is Wilgy, he could still comfortably make the nutella kill *if* he knows for sure that Davos would stay in the game if he died.
...Meh, this isn't getting me anywhere.

[WindwardAway]

Wait, wasn't sig the one who kept saying Wilgy was pretty firmly in his town range? Why would Wilgy make that kill rather than Delta or me? I mean, WIFOM I guess, but it benefits Wilgy way less if he doesn't have a defender anymore.

[VOTE: unvote] aubergine

[WindwardAway]

Oh I can't unvote, shit.

[WindwardAway]

@Epignosis what prompted you to think that Wilgy is more likely to make the kill on sig?

[WindwardAway]

[VOTE: Delta] aubergine

[WindwardAway]

Actually I still think Wilgy is a wolf, but I don't think he'd make the sig kill tbh
Problem is that I don't think he would've made the nutella kill, either, or at least not unless Davos would've remained in the game if Wilgy died. And I guess we'll never know if that was the case cause we already flipped Davos.

[WindwardAway]

Ignoring the sock we’re at 4-1-1

If we misvote today and have 1 night kill then we’ve still got a final phase.

Also the flip side with my Wilgy read is he could still be mafia just landlord. So there’s that

I’ve got that end of game certainty now that the final two mafia are Wilgy and Leetic. I’ve got very little solid reasoning to back this up, but it just seems like the most logic thing, having said that I will be reading up on those two before eod and hopefully everyone else also, but it just doesn’t seem viable that both mafia are West with only 2 West players left

...I stand corrected, never mind.

[WindwardAway]

[VOTE: Wilgy] aubergine

[WindwardAway]

Granted I’ve not playing with Wilgy since the summer I think, but he seeks to be so within his civ meta that I don’t want to vote there, voting Davos seems like a waste right now thag leaves WWA from the west or East

This was the thing I remembered reading, though. I think if anything, I look worse from the sig kill than Wilgy does

[WindwardAway]

At this point NKA is probably futile since the kills are likely alternating and I would not be surprised at all if both wolves are trying to frame each other with the kills, lol.

[WindwardAway]

I should be more or less here for the rest of the day, btw, in case anyone's around

[leetic]

nutella was likely an arbiter kill, as it seems likely she was killed because the other team thought she was a wolf and it's doubtful that the landlords thought she killed her own teammate. Still, that's again assuming no interference which isn't entirely a safe assumption, so whatever.