The Syndicate

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:03 am i dont feel good having this conversation but i would feel worse if i were to ignore this

I'm not asking anybody to ignore it.

I asked that people take the day off from it and if it was still that important, they could come back later to discuss it. That's all.

What is the profit of this conversation?

You are welcome to have it, but is it the best use of your time?

My suggestion to all parties? Move on.

Hello. Can everyone take a step back and maybe take the rest of the evening (morning, afternoon, wheresoever you may be) off?

I understand the desire to discuss balance and mechanics and all of that, and I understand both the frustrations stemming from this as a long-time host and as a long-time player, but in the end this was a game on the Internet and nobody was maimed or made poorer because of it (unless you were caught playing Mafia at work and got fired, in which case, I'm sorry, good luck on the job hunt).

Relationships > Games on the Internet

I only want to say two things:

1) Even though I don't believe civilians had a chance in hell with this setup, I still had fun in the process.

2) I am proud of tutuu for recognizing areas of improvement in the setup. That's what experience is all about. Take that knowledge and run with it.

I'm still not wrong.

Long Con wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:54 pm Fantastic game, amazing attention to detail and balance and creativity and INNOVATION, this is a VERY strong contender for Best Racket this year. Phenomenal and inspiring, thank you so much tutuu. I have never seen anything like this.

Mafia had control over the lynch polls for the majority of the game.

Urist wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:40 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:23 pm I approach things not just as a player but as a game designer.

So the first question given this morning's mana a mana clash (I'm so clever ) for me is this: "Would a mafioso use an ability to make himself the only other name on the poll?"

The answer to that is "Hell no unless you crazy."

The second question I ask is, "Would I as a game designer give mafia an ability to transform the poll from anybody can die to 'Mafia has a 50% chance of death?'"

The answer to that is "Hell no I ain't crazy."

The third question I ask is, "Would a mafia member whose faction has this in hand use this ability?"

See the answer to number one.

I'm gradually gaining the perspective that this is all going to be a cautionary tale of "Just because you can don't mean you should."

The reverse lynch mechanic was almost certainly going to work against civilians.

This lynch mechanic may very well work against civilians.

JPIC has essentially forced our hands into choosing between them, which means if we agree with the answers to the questions above, we have no choice but to accept JPIC's decision on the matter.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

On the other hand, silencing is a pro-Mafia mechanic in almost every scenario, and I'm not altogether sure I buy the "There's a secret benefit to it." I don't even make civilian silencers anymore.

The fact is we've been dealt two names to choose from, and one of them is someone whose skill set doesn't make much sense coming from a mafia member. The other one does.

And at the end of the day, if we lose, I get to blame JPIC.

[VOTE: Urist] aubergine
If scumJpic ends the game with a free kill tonight I'm saving this as copypasta

If that happens the game is unbalanced and not my fault either.

I approach things not just as a player but as a game designer.

So the first question given this morning's mana a mana clash (I'm so clever

) for me is this: "Would a mafioso use an ability to make himself the only other name on the poll?"

The answer to that is "Hell no unless you crazy."

The second question I ask is, "Would I as a game designer give mafia an ability to transform the poll from anybody can die to 'Mafia has a 50% chance of death?'"

The answer to that is "Hell no I ain't crazy."

The third question I ask is, "Would a mafia member whose faction has this in hand use this ability?"

See the answer to number one.

I'm gradually gaining the perspective that this is all going to be a cautionary tale of "Just because you can don't mean you should."

The reverse lynch mechanic was almost certainly going to work against civilians.

This lynch mechanic may very well work against civilians.

JPIC has essentially forced our hands into choosing between them, which means if we agree with the answers to the questions above, we have no choice but to accept JPIC's decision on the matter.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

On the other hand, silencing is a pro-Mafia mechanic in almost every scenario, and I'm not altogether sure I buy the "There's a secret benefit to it." I don't even make civilian silencers anymore.

The fact is we've been dealt two names to choose from, and one of them is someone whose skill set doesn't make much sense coming from a mafia member. The other one does.

And at the end of the day, if we lose, I get to blame JPIC.

[VOTE: Urist] aubergine

Urist wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:07 pm imagine keeping the entire decision of whom to axe behind closed doors so that scum can just lurk all day

You could have posted more.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:44 pm The Council of the Wise and Witless has reached a decision.

Spoiler: show

The Council of the Wise and Witless has reached a decision.

There are at least two kids on this planet who can say "I have been in a bubble bath with Bob Saget."

That's what Danny Tanner says after cleaning the bathroom.

Speaking of...

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:58 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:49 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:59 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:26 pm Has anyone claimed the Neighborhood Yeet ability? Was it TSP?
Would love an answer to this sooner rather than later btw @TonyStarkPrime @hollowkatt @Epignosis
I don't know what this means.
I suspect that the ability which created the special execution mechanic on d3 is the same one that created the special execution mechanic today. It doesn't make any sense for them to be two separate abilities (what would happen if they were both used at the same time?)
Also, dunya was given a ton of mana for n2 and I don't think anyone gave her mana for n3, so how would Tony execute this special ability unless it was initially triggered n2 and this is just an after-effect?
What I'm getting at is that TSP is probably mafia. And that, unfortunately, I'm probably wrong on hk and that he's likely town after all.

Gosh, if you didn't put a post restriction on him, maybe you could ask him a bunch of questions or something.

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:51 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:47 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:59 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:26 pm Has anyone claimed the Neighborhood Yeet ability? Was it TSP?
Would love an answer to this sooner rather than later btw @TonyStarkPrime @hollowkatt @Epignosis
Hello. I have done it. I have also been silenced. The purpose of the neighborhood is as follows: this ability gains its power from the existence of the confirmed town epi. I will plan on sheeping whatever Epi decides (barring him making a stupid decision or disappearing). However, I only have 10 posts to use in the thread and I have to use posts to vote so HK and Epi speak for me today.

Would also love to know why you silenced me. smh. [VOTE: urist] aubergine that's not nice.
Because there's a beneficial side to my action and I knew you'd be the least affected since you'd most likely be able to speak through a neighborhood today.
Also because I couldn't silence Guillotine on consecutive nights.

A few observations and questions here.

1. You targeted TSP with a silence because TSP would be able to speak through a neighborhood.
a. That somewhat implies you knew he would be alive today (not necessarily), but you wouldn't silence someone you expected to be dead.

2. The second sentence implies you wanted to silence Guillotine twice in a row. Why would you want that?
a. You said you chose TSP because you knew he wouldn't be as affected. Did this reasoning equally apply to Guillotine?
b. Why did you quiet Guillotine, someone I have trusted?
c. You pretended to not understand the mechanics behind quieting Guillotine, and from what I can tell, you didn't do anything with that as a civilian might in order to catch opportunistic mafia. No, indeed, you just said you wish you could target Guillotine again.

Urist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:18 pm @Guillotine do you just die if you go over 10 posts then?

d. One could even accuse you of trying to bait Guillotine into wasting a post or more:

Urist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:12 am
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:51 am
Urist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:20 pm @Guillotine if you like to eat poop just don't respond to this and we'll get the idea
what is the context?
No context. But he never responded so I guess he does.

3. Silencing people in any context is at its core a mafia-aligned ability. If I am a civilian with that role, I don't use it.
a. So why did you? What did you hope to accomplish putting a post restriction on Guillotine (and hoping to do it twice)? And what are you hoping to accomplish putting a posting restriction on TSP?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:47 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:59 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:26 pm Has anyone claimed the Neighborhood Yeet ability? Was it TSP?
Would love an answer to this sooner rather than later btw @TonyStarkPrime @hollowkatt @Epignosis
Hello. I have done it. I have also been silenced. The purpose of the neighborhood is as follows: this ability gains its power from the existence of the confirmed town epi. I will plan on sheeping whatever Epi decides (barring him making a stupid decision or disappearing). However, I only have 10 posts to use in the thread and I have to use posts to vote so HK and Epi speak for me today.

Would also love to know why you silenced me. smh. [VOTE: urist] aubergine that's not nice.

I have never disappeared.

As for the other thing.

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:09 pm
Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:12 am
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:10 am
Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:46 am
Urist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:43 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:42 pm Are 112 and JPIC consensus not-town-reads?
Myself and Mac view 112 as not mafia.
Mac is dead ofc so

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:32 pm In my time in post cap jail I observed HK essentially outing himself as mafia. I believe HK and 112 are teammates.

Oh right ok well maybe I'm wrong on 112. Would still prefer to axe the actively-scummy hk first.
Why do you scumread HK?
His reads show no progression and he continued to push the ted wagon for bad reasons after being shown that his stated reasons were invalid. He said he was going after ted due to a couple of d0 posts as well as the fact that ted was being defensive & deflective. I told him to look at ted's iso and point out where ted was being defensive. Hk's response was essentially "ok well he's not being defensive but he's still lock scum for the d0 stuff". This was on d2. Absolutely no progression on the read, and when ted flipped town hk's reads didn't change at all. Personally, when I find out that I was that wrong on someone, my reads are shaken at least a little.

He also keeps stating that my read on 112 is strange. I've repeatedly said that it's a weak town read due to a hunch I have on Esooa's meta. Hk is calling me scum because I don't have a read on 112. I'll ask you jpic, has 112 done anything especially alignment-indicative this game? I disagree that he hasn't been solvy... he hasn't posted a ton of questions, but he's been posting his reads and he tried to engage ted on d2 when he was pushing him (note: 112 wasn't here on d1 and d3 was a crapshoot). I don't think I've received a response from hk about what "not solvy" really means to him, but that's the only objection he has to 112's play. Considering this, it's very odd that hk's main complaint about me is that I'm defending 112 when hk's read of 112 is so weak and vague.

Those two reasons are the main reasons for why I suspect hk.

Regardless of this, HK isn't getting lynched today.

Talk about someone else.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:29 pm I would need to eliminate one person from the POE pool of 112/JPIC/LC/hk/Enrique/falcon. We only have one mischop (assuming standard progression) so the POE needs to be no more than 5.

I don't think HK is mafia.

If I'm mafia, and I control the tie between two civilians, do I pick Wilgy (25 posts) or JPIC (significantly more thread presence) to die?

Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:59 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:26 pm Has anyone claimed the Neighborhood Yeet ability? Was it TSP?
Would love an answer to this sooner rather than later btw @TonyStarkPrime @hollowkatt @Epignosis

I don't know what this means.

You all can continue as you will but I'm asking this:

Name your top suspect.
Name your top civilian.

I'm the only one allowed to be cleared based on mana giving. The gods have spoken.

The Council of the Wise and Witless have made a decision.

Spoiler: show

I have a million posts. I care nothing about post counts.

I'm about to watch TV for an hour anyway.

Be back after that.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:34 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:34 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:53 pm Hi, I've read none of this game. What should I know?
You're a civilian.
What should I know that I couldn't get from looking at my rolecard?

Can't I just torture you?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:26 pm I have read all the host posts and flips and stuff and have a half-decent grasp on the mechanics.

I will not be reading 60 pages of gameplay. So instead I'll ask the room: Why have we chopped three civilians and zero mafiers?

Mechanics.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:33 pm I am here to build a new towncore. It starts when you answer my question.

We don't want a new one.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:53 pm Hi, I've read none of this game. What should I know?

You're a civilian.

This is how it feels getting picked last for kickball.

Just leave the two least trusted people without a vote. That's the best you can do.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:02 pmLOL nice

Was that "LOL nice" I'm happy we have more time or was that "LOL nice" my last minute vote switch wasn't so last minute shit?

Spoiler: show

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:58 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:55 pm I just finished work.

It should not take a half an hour to take attendance, even for extra classes.

I realize the Day ends in about five minutes, so if anybody wants to ask something before lock, go ahead. Sorry I can't be around.
sure, I've got a question: Rhubarb Pie, yes or no

Wouldn't know.

I just finished work.

It should not take a half an hour to take attendance, even for extra classes.

I realize the Day ends in about five minutes, so if anybody wants to ask something before lock, go ahead. Sorry I can't be around.

A fireball in real life.

That's funny.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:13 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:10 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:32 pm dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)
I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.
Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO

Except we've agreed at almost every point, so then it isn't "sheeping the dead," as you call it.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:04 pm I don't particularly think anyone else would target you two

You're probably right. I'd still like to hear it from Falcon.

Wonder where Falcon got the mana to perform that move. It wasn't from me, you can be damn sure.

I think it's a civilian.

So with that in mind, I think it's valuable if the civilian who marked us claimed. That would help narrow things down.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:00 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:58 pm I don't think mafia submitted those powers.

The simplest explanation is a civilian who suspect us did that.
-The person who marked Epignosis has the opposite alignment of Epignosis

Says it on the tin.

No?

That's a conditional statement.

I don't think mafia submitted those powers.

The simplest explanation is a civilian who suspect us did that.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:54 pm Guillo why did you go on to humour that the marker is town again after you already clarified they can't be because it states they have the opposite alignment to you?

It's post ten. He's done talking.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:42 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:39 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:38 pm Thats a very out of character opportunistic little snipe.
Who cares? Is HK mafia or not?
I do not like the way you are making me feel in this game. I do not enjoy it. I would like for you to at least attempt to consider this when engaging me moving forward.

I don't know who the Mafia are. I am attempting to play the game and solve it. Sidelining my pushes and interjecting in this manner is disruptive to my genuine attempts to solve the game which is contradicting your wincon.

Very well. I apologize. Carry on.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:38 pm Thats a very out of character opportunistic little snipe.

Who cares? Is HK mafia or not?

Enrique wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:26 pm
Urist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:31 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:23 pm What we need is a list of trustworthy individuals. People who under no circumstances should be killed today.

If you nominate someone, you need to be able to show why you believe that person is a civilian.

Than all that's required is we coordinate votes accordingly and make mafia shoot among the elimination pool.
I think the optimal play is to leave just one person with 0 votes (and to have that person not covering anyone else), so we should try to do that, if possible. That way, if the mafia want to tie the vote to save the person at 0, they have to out one of their own.
I think this is a really bad idea. We're already unlikely to get scum this way (especially if they're voting for each other), this just makes sure that we end up with nothing... the one played we leave at 0 would have to be 100% lock scum. Leaving 2-3 players at 0 even if we end up lynching a townie at least gives us something about how they're deciding ties, who they're scrambling to save, and just how they're manipulating the poll in general. We're never gonna get a consensus of who should be the one person everyone thinks should go.

We should still fuck around with it and find the best way to catch scum from this poll but I don't think your suggestion is how. It sounds likelier that we'd just fuck somebody over for no gain that way.

I'm pretty sure the correct select is to vote "No Chop" and everybody wins.

Also the marker power would be overpowered for a mafia team in my opinion.

I was marked while people thought I was mafia.

I therefore suspect the marker is good.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:45 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:36 pm
hollowkatt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:29 pm so where I'm at:
Townies:
Dunya - Agree
Epi - Agree
Guillo - Agree
HK - Have doubts but okay
Falcon - Have doubts but okay

Not Sure:
Mac - Would kill
LC - Would kill
Jack - Would kill
JPIC - Would kill

Not Townies:
112 - Would kill
Urist - A puzzle
Enrique - Would kill
Wigly - Would kill
That isn't a great list.

Would kill people need to do would not kill things.
agreed.
I'm fairly comfortably killing through the not townies list. The Not Sure list I think can be sorted, eventually. Dunya would put LC into the townies bucket.
Why would you kill him?

Bitch tried to kill me.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:06 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:53 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:49 pm The goal is not to cover everybody.

The goal is to leave exposed those who get no love.
But how many exposed is ideal? Three?
4.5
4.5 would guarantee a town dies. I would say ideally it would be 2 or even just 1.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:41 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:38 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:35 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:22 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:17 pm Both of you, stop this please.

Any two players with BTSC can give six mana to someone. That's my point. I'm not barking up a tree.
I don't care about that.

You accused me of being mafia even though I claimed to have given six mana to one person.

Why would mafia give six mana to one person?

Falcon gave the only reasonable answer, and I don't even like Falcon (as a civilian): "Epi and Guillo are lying about it and are mafia teammates."

Nobody else has provided a reasonable possibility.

So I don't care that you think any players with BTSC can give six mana to someone.

I care that you called me mafia and voted for me to die when 1) You didn't know I had BTSC, and 2) Giving six mana to another person doesn't seem like it would make sense for a mafia member to do.
Well I don't care about any of that, so have fun with it. It made less sense to me to give all your mana to someone of whom you were guessing an alignment. You keep chewing on this as long as you need to though.
Ah!

That was the scheme.

If some big nasty shit went down in the thread at Night, assuming mafia have additional artifacts and what not, we would know who had the mana to wreak such havoc.

It was our way of clearing ourselves to others while outing mafia we overpowered.

I think it was quite a genius plan if I do say so myself.
I give it a 4.5/10.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:53 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:49 pm The goal is not to cover everybody.

The goal is to leave exposed those who get no love.
But how many exposed is ideal? Three?

4.5

The goal is not to cover everybody.

The goal is to leave exposed those who get no love.

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