The Syndicate

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:51 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:54 am

Invictius wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:47 am

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:02 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:45 am The point is that Gavial is infamous for having insane troll logic and I think this is because he simply views the game in a very twisty and strange way that is far removed from everyone else's when he is town. His play this game seems much more orthodox and I believe this is a symptom of him trying to mimic "normal" townies.

if the assumption in this post is correct (that gavial's read on me was totally serious), then wouldn't you say that it's pretty unconventional/strange for him to have a confident scumread based on the first couple of posts on page 1? how would you say that those reads are "orthodox" or "sane"?

something might be getting lost in translation w/your read on gavial, because the only frame of reference i have for him is fargo mafia, where he was fairly normal (iirc)

i like this tho. somewhat cause the question makes sense, also somewhat because they're defending the person that voted them(i know it's an early day 1 vote that means nothing, but as scum it wouldn't be too hard to piggyback on either the accusation against gavial or against anyone that's been pressured thus far but SPF chooses to dig deeper for a read which ME LIKES).

SPF can have a slight town read.


that being said, do you find alison suspicious for coming to such strong conclusions early or is it a towny thing? based on her read of gavial im assuming meta isn't disregarded on this site!

alison having strong conclusions early is pretty typical for her as either alignment. i got pinged by her read initially because it had a train of thought that didn't seem totally fluid to me (ie: describing gavial's reads as "conventional" when his play up until that point had been anything but conventional), but i think it's fine in the context of alison having highly specific meta about gavial's playstyle, and in the context of her trying to provide content to a game that was almost entirely dead

SPF made this post with regard to Alison early on. She implied that she was pinged by a particular thing that Alison did, but then walked it back in the same post.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:43 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:40 am We should also talk about how Alison is scum.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 6:07 am SPF is probably town. I like her town reads, I like all her thoughts, I like that she doesn't try to be flashy or project town too much. Good content without shoving it in our faceses.

Had a feeling Tony was town for his first post. Just seemed like something he said because he felt it necessary (from a town perspective), not because he felt he needed to say something (in which case maybe he would've felt the need to say more too). Maybe this is thin, but that's what I got.

I'm pretty ok with Invictus so far. But it's not like I feel I should trust him immediately, which I already have expressed.

---

Don't know about anybody else. Alison, I don't really see where she is coming from with her Gavial read. I also felt she could've waited in any case. I don't have a read on Alison, don't quite remember how I've felt in other games with her.

the first quote has a level of spiciness that is utterly let down by the second quote. why assertively call alison scum and then back off from that read before alison (or anyone, for that matter) had the opportunity to react?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 7:01 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 5:10 pm Current quick takes.

Alison is town for pushing for activity.
Dizzy is town for reasonable reads and OMGUSing. Good luck surviving til Day 2 Dizzy.
I am town because my rolecard says so.

oof, i don't like this post. do you think that alison would not push to make the game more active as a wolf? would dizzy not have "reasonable reads" as a wolf? this feels like a fairly surface level analysis

We then have these couple posts where SPF interrogates other players based on their handling of Alison.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:27 am

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:19 am

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 4:07 am im about to go to bed, but will be somewhat around before the deadline tomorrow. if u have any burning questions for me, i would ask them now

what do your current reads look like, SPF?

thanks for asking! i feel fairly strongly about fingersplints being a villager but it's more of a soulread than anything else - there is a level of sincerity/comfort in her posting that i find it difficult to believe that she would have as a wofl. my understanding is that dizzy has a very good wolf game, but i townread him as well - he has mindmelded with me at multiple points throughout the game with regards to our perspective and the stuff that we're interested in pursuing, and i like that he has an equally strong soulread on fingersplints

i still townlean invictius, even though i feel that his playstyle is one that i might be inclined to townread regardless of his alignment. i would GTH lean on nanook and koba being town - at least to the extent that i am not interested in chopping either of them today. i think that long con had exactly one (1) villagery post, so i'm not inspired by his wagon, but i'm not at a level where i feel comfortable defending or shielding him

i was lightly pinged by a couple of falcon's posts. i have been pinged by HK's posts too, but i'm holding my breath on that read because i think that HK has the capacity to make himself very obviously town if he actually is a villager. i have very little to say about alison, gavial, marmot, or tonystarkprime (i thought tsp's opening posts were villagery, but i need more for that to develop into a real townread.)

i wanted to explain these reads more, but i can barely keep my eyes open

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 5:57 pm my stance on long con has been that he made one villagery post toward the beginning of the game where he tinfoiled an alison/gavial team, and that i have been lukewarm about the rest of his posts. i think falcon is a preferential chop

Then in this one, we have a townlean of Invictius (ok sure, I also townread him a this point). But more interestingly is the "i have very little to say about alison".

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 5:57 pm my stance on long con has been that he made one villagery post toward the beginning of the game where he tinfoiled an alison/gavial team, and that i have been lukewarm about the rest of his posts. i think falcon is a preferential chop

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 7:28 pm

Gavial wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 7:26 pm I mean....
Vote the red check and then I die tonight and you maybe vote Alison for me in my place?

if you actually hold on to your claim, then sure

A couple more mentions of Alison. Not really about her, but more circumstantially talking to other people about her.

But this is where it gets more interesting.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 pm

Gavial wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:23 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:22 pm well w/e, i don't care if this dude wants to fish my role out. i CC vig. i did not shoot last night

you can go into anti-spew now

You shoot Alison tonight?
I track PoE?

i'd like to give alison some more time to talk before i decide if she should be POE'd or not, but i'm fine with us settling on a shot by the end of the day

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:26 pm i retract btw, i just wanted to force him to out himself =)

Gavial suggests that SPF, the claimed vig at this point, shoot Alison tonight. SPF advocates to keep her alive to talk and rescinds the claim in one fell swoop.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:39 pm knowing that gavial is a villager does make ma little more concerned about alison's push early push on him, but will withhold judgement on that front until i get to ISO her

Again here, SPF offers a little shade for Alison, but tries to protect her from the vig slot.



Addendum. There's little interest in resolving this slot at all, even at this point where they've been POE'd hard by the rest of the game. And she's even been attempting to protect her from the vig.

I believe that the Invcitus claim, SPF counterclaim was an attempt to get the vig role out in the open to talk about, and give SPF a little bit of cred for CCing providing cover. Also, in the event that SPF was a civilian and/or the actual vig, wouldn't Invictus at least try to get her yeeted instead? He gave up far to easily for me to think that's the case.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 4:39 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 4:34 pm what does your POE look like, dizzy?

Tony.


Check Nanook's derps.

Marmot says it's you, but I'm pretty sure you were the first to town read Incivtius. So only way you'd be scum then is if you all decided that you were going to town read each other from the get go and carry each other. Which is possible, but also not something most scum teams do. So I'm not very hopeful it's you tbh.

Syn just seems town. Invictius was shading Koba. Town.

LC should be town. Actually his answers to me lately has given me a bit creepy buddy feels, but that is probably just paranoia. He should be town based on Invictius being so ok with him dead.

Hollow is town. His reasoning for town reading me is spot on. Fighting with Invictius. Def town.

Honestly, it should just be Tony. I haven't had time to play this game at all lately. Literally was at work 12 hours today. So I haven't "done work" with this game in a while.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 2:06 pm

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 2:00 pm Why is dizzy town

I remember a game with Dizzy on MU where he was a wolf. Every time I tried to press him on something he was evasive, he wouldn't answer direct questions, he'd dance around things, and he left lots of wiggle room in his interpretations of how he was seeing the thread.
He was hard to pin down on anything and his pushes weren't very forceful, they were designed to obfuscate and confuse.
Here he's not doing any of that. He's pretty blatant with how he sees things and he's totally willing to engage with people directly. I think I said to Syn yesterday that he's playing a shirtsleeves game where he's been pretty transparent with his thoughts and his thread perceptions.

I don't doubt that Dizzy is a great player, but if he's stepped up his wolf game to that kind of level he's a whole different player I think.
His last couple of posts today where he's town reading LC are indicative of this type of play/analysis. Like dude has just done work trying to figure things out.

Syn wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 11:19 ammarmot obvs

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:45 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:42 pm

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:42 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:37 pm Nanook is the fourth highest poster in the game, should I feel concerned?

Idk should you

I'm outta my comfort zone, I need help

Sorry bud that's what happens when you claim my role and I don't say anything;)

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:42 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:37 pm Nanook is the fourth highest poster in the game, should I feel concerned?

Idk should you

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 7:48 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 10:16 am I feel okay about Dizzy, SPF and Invictius.

Rule of three clears

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 7:50 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:20 pm I’m being pulled away and may not be back by the deadline. I suggest shooting Tony.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 6:16 pm Dizzy, I’ve been treated like a foregone conclusion by at least four people. You’re not the only one.

Don’t waste a vig shot on me. I am town, and I can only hope folks will be ready to listen next time. This thread is a case study in intra-town toxicity, and it will be an even bigger problem whenever I’m dead. Too many folks are not at all ready to contend with this game after I flip despite my best efforts to encourage broader solving. It doesn’t have to be that way, and we can be better. Give me the dang chance and I can do whatever I can to make y’all listen.

Also Nanook’s posts suck and I’ve not seen any convincing sell that he’s town. If not Tony shoot him.

does jagged make these posts if his partner is tony?

Syn wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 7:48 pm

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 7:41 pm marmot's just confirmed town, SPF I think has to be town b/c if the team was JJJ/SPF they're counting on marmot somehow not shooting at either of them? Also I like SPFs post where she lays out the JJJ posts that she'd have made if she were wolfing.
Kinda like Syn for his acceptance of being POE and the timeline post, which is townie b/c it exists, wolf Syn has no reason to say that

Everyone else getting re-evaluated today, probably starting with TSP b/c I remember his posts the least.

It just makes sense to resolve my slot, tbh. I have the least connection to either side. Even JJJ in his fake casing couldn't come up with anything more than "Well, the dk/Syn slot exists." So while there isn't a specific reason to suspect me immediately, that changes the longer I'm alive. Marmot using his shot on me means there's no possible "Maybe it's just Syn" case D4 or beyond.

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 7:36 pm If you want me in the POE, then fine, don't take me to final three. Ideally we can close this game out before then.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:57 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:54 pmThere's a relative dearth of things to talk about, even if from the Invictus side those things are of significance. I'd be more comfortable if I had more content to develop my perspectives. Gun to my head Long Con is not Invictus's teammate.

Pretty damn sure LC is town. I could feel Invi really wanting to go there D1, and for reasons of "lack of town tells" not anything that is "gotcha" which it might be with a teammate. Invi dislikes unnecessary bussing.

Syn wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 7:21 pm You have another shot, right, Marmot?

Syn wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 7:19 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 7:17 pm JJJ didn't sub into the game until after Invictus was caught and gave up.

If you'd like to be pedantic, Gavial says Alison or SPF.

Alison was replaced by JJJ.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:16 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:11 pm [VOTE: SPF] aubergine


I still believe she's the final wolf.

cool, nice shot! it looks like the village has more than enough information to pull a victory out of this game as long as we do some work and make sure that we all communicate

i'm gonna admit that i've been struggling in games lately to not care about peoples push on me, regardless of what their reasoning is. your push on me in this game feels uniquely distracting to me because i feel like i should be cleared and spewed as a villager on multiple levels (by making ivicitus hardclaim, by clearly not being partnered with jagged).

so, it's hard for me to resist the temptation to just spend the entirety of today aggressively telling you why you're wrong and why you should be reading me as blatant town if you think critically about the game for more than 5 seconds

even so, i don't wanna be aggressive, and i don't wanna create a negative environment in a game that should be an easy villager win even in a world where i ~do~ get mischopped. so, i will try my best to focus on simply finding the last wolf today

that said, i would ask you to keep an open mind about me too. the reason i have so much conviction about your push on me is because i feel like i should be BLATANTLY spewed town in a million different directions, and i want to convince you to see that if you're capable of having your mind changed today

Syn wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:20 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:16 pm

Syn wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:12 pm I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

Why?

I wrote out an explanation and then realized I was stupid

so never mind me

Syn wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:20 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:16 pm

Syn wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:12 pm I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

Why?

I wrote out an explanation and then realized I was stupid

so never mind me

Syn wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:12 pm I would humbly suggest that the vig not try to coordinate their kill

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:04 pm @Marmot - in my humble opinion, you need to apply occam's razor to my slot. it is possible that there exists a world where i did an elaborate fakeclaim with invictus for the purpose of bussing and getting myself towncred, but the option that requires the least amount of assumptions is that me and invicitus are not aligned with each other. i have been confused by how willing you are to theorize that me and invictus are doing theatre without being equally willing to theorize the obvious possibility that we are simply not teamed with each other

it should also be obvious to you by this point that me and jagged aren't teamed - there is no world where i get strategic benefit out of my current treatment of jagged if we are wolves together. i am not townreading him or protecting him but i'm also not really pushing for him to be shot - he's just broadly ~in~ my POE. this is a position where wolves often put their partners, yes, but i'm a wolf that is capable of reading a room and knowing when a slot is going to die sooner than later, and my focus as a wolf that is teamed w/jagged would be to dissociate jagged and myself as much as possible by bussing, ~or~ i would try to protect him and change the current gamestate. my middling, passive approach to his slot is the worst strategic move that i could make as a wolf, and i hope that congress of vienna showed to you that my wolfgame is not as tepid as you seem to be implying with that read

if your beef with me is simply the fact that i fos'd you and pressured you earlier today, then that's something that you will simply have to reckon with. i had concerns about you, those concerns were reasonable, and i tried to work with you to reach common ground

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:04 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:03 pm I dare the mafia to join us.

I'm only here b/c self-voting is dumb

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:31 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:51 pm I believe that the Invcitus claim, SPF counterclaim was an attempt to get the vig role out in the open to talk about, and give SPF a little bit of cred for CCing providing cover. Also, in the event that SPF was a civilian and/or the actual vig, wouldn't Invictus at least try to get her yeeted instead? He gave up far to easily for me to think that's the case.

1. how was i protecting alison from being shot by the vigilante by suggesting to invictus that i would like to give alison more time to post before i made up my mind about her alignment? for one, this would have no impact on how alison was treated by the rest of the thread, let alone the real vigilante, and number two, the intention of that post was simply to add authenticity to my claim and convince invicitus that i wasn't going to immediately retract. i was putting on a show to get him to out himself, and it worked

it's worth noting that i have made no attempts to shield alison from the POE in general - i had very little to say about her on d1 because she only made a handful of posts throughout the entire day, and it was clear to me that her lack of activity was not alignment indicative - there was just ultimately not enough content to read her alignment off of. i have expressed concerns about alison's slot today and i have made no attempts to take them out of the consensus POE or prevent people from wolfreading them

if i'm a wolf and i'm trying to protect the alison slot, then i am doing an objectively bad job at it. if i'm wolf and i'm trying to bus the alison slot, then i'm doing an even worse job at it, since my approach to that slot will give me zero towncred in the event that they do flip wolf

the framing of your wallpost implies that gavial asking me to shoot alison was a factor in me deciding to retract, but the reason why i retracted is because invicitus 100%, objectively outed themselves as a wolf and i did not see the point of continuing to keep up the fakeclaim any longer

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:24 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:23 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:21 pm I find myself wondering, Marmot, if you're influenced by the old-timey Syndicate no-claims lore where things like "cover" didn't exist. Do you think that's plausible?

I don't know what you're asking me here.

There's a tendency, though less in recent memory, for Syndicate long-timers to respond to power role cover with suspicion (or out themselves outright) -- it's a product of being unused to role claiming and the strategic wrinkles associated with it. I know you've played your share of claim-friendly games; I just also know you had a long hiatus that was preceded by an era on this site where those things were still very relevant.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:21 pm I find myself wondering, Marmot, if you're influenced by the old-timey Syndicate no-claims lore where things like "cover" didn't exist. Do you think that's plausible?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:18 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:16 pm Maybe try a different tactic like telling me who to shoot insteead of calling it absurd spf.

well, i do find it absurd that i gave you the cover to hide as the real vigilante, and you responded to that by outing yourself anyway and then threatening to shoot the person that prevented you from having to out

unfortunately, there might not be enough time for me to form a fully developed worldview of this game within the next hour and a half to convince you not to shoot me, since i was under the impression that i would have another 48 hours to scumhunt tomorrow and that i would not be in any real danger of dying

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:10 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:31 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 2:57 pm @Marmot do you believe SPF's counter claim on Invictus was theater?

Yes

I'm also the real vig and plan on shooting her tonight.

if your reaction to me claiming vigilante and successfully forcing the mafia to hardclaim and out themselves while also providing you ample cover to hide and take shots without the mafia knowing who you are is to turn around and shoot the same person who provided you with that cover, then uh....i don't know what to say

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:04 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:02 pm Nanook is town though. I know I had reasons. Probably derps and stuff too unfortunately.

That's kind of why I suggested a trustfall. Nanook could be town. I think we need to have some kind of standard for what that read is at this point in the game. I don't have the full game behind me to influence my perspective, so it's purely an interactive detail. If there's something else about him that is important I will listen.