The Syndicate

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:You don't think there's anything inspiring in your own posts?

To be honest, not really. It sounds strange but other players have made better defenses for me than I have made for myself, in my opinion.

Diiny I hadn't considered that, actually. My brain is smart but my head is dumb. Knowing my allegiance is civilian, I think it makes him look a bit good regardless, since going out on a limb and taking a defensive stance on my behalf garners unnecessary attention for a scum at this point in the game. Not knowing my allegiance, it makes it likely that if one of us is scum both of us are, forms a distinct link.

J3 my impression of Mac is that he would sooner use the "Am I crediting my teammate or a civvie?" WIFOM with a scum teammate. I don't know him but I get that gut feeling from him for some reason.

English is hard. My bad MM. I think you're very bad, yes. Or at the very least you're playing your own game in a method that makes me feel used, and I don't like that.

J3 I'll put them all in this post for you:
Tinfoil read - You're scum
Low-hanging fruit - Me
Town Evidence - Near unanimous townreads on me for large parts of the game

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Choutas wrote:MM your theory about me bussing teammates is wrong. You must have mistaken me with RDW who has bussed at least a dozen of players. I've never bussed someone and even if I did buss someday somehow I doubt I'd go full retard and buss half the team if I were scum.
Fwiw I was a member of the only perfect mafia win where we won without losing a single member. We could have bussed a teammate at the endgame but we decided to push for a townie lynch even harder and claim a perfect win.
This not me. Choutas doesn't roll like that.

That certainly stands in your favor.

But I can't just dismiss you as civilian because of that.

Linki:

Metalmarsh I'm not saying you had a town read on Choutas. If you think I did please quote it so I can clear up the misunderstanding because this is getting aggravating.

The only thing I'm talking about is your usage of the word "dismiss" here. It reads as if, in a world where you believe a player to be civilian, you wave them away and focus on other things. I don't like that.

The multiple players that have townread me for the majority, if not all, of their lifespans.

Nobody is cleared, MM, my apologies for the error. The post that I'm referring to is where you use the word "dismiss" when talking about a player that you have a strong town read on. We've been over this already, I'm curious on the others' perceptions.

Of players that I saw a post of, yes. It could be a completely irrelevant opinion, such as "Wow, MM has either won more games than others or is proud of them" or something more important such as "J3 posts a lot"

Because I thought his reaction to Matt's SK theory looked good. To me that read as someone who was not overly worried about dying. I interpreted that as a non-Mafia mindset.

Does nobody else have an opinion of MM's word usage when referring to a cleared civilian?

Not sure who the low-hanging fruit is. I can't answer myself without being biased.

MM I assumed that he had an opinion of me, even if it was founded on a single point. I find it difficult to imagine, for me, a position where I have literally no opinion of someone, however relevant it is.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Jay, I'll entertain your notion that RadicalFuzz and Bullzeye are mafia. I noticed this post from RadicalFuzz on Night 5.

RadicalFuzz wrote:Bullzeye, if you're still here, how have my posts in the last hour changed your opinion of me? Feel free to do a simple before and after analysis instead of a short answer. I'll read it.

Fuzz asks Bullzeye to analyze Fuzz's recent posts and explain why his opinion has changed. Looking at Bullzeye's posts, he did not mention any change in heart on RadicalFuzz, or any read of Fuzz at all. Here is Bullzeye's response.

Bullzeye wrote:I don't know that they've had any impact at all to be honest. I've never suspected you regardless. I actually have a fairly good vibe about you, I think you've been making good efforts to get involved and find baddies. I might not always think you're right, but as of now I haven't seen a reason to think you're bad yet.

Link to the start of the conversation. RadicalFuzz is forcing Bullzeye to take a stance on him, and Bullzeye does. But RadicalFuzz's approach to Bullzeye isn't consistent with what was stated before.

My approach to Bullzeye isn't consistent with what that was stated before?

J3, does my response satisfy you? What did you expect Wilgy to say, also, to that GTH, that the player he intentionally saved from a lynch is scum?

No. I'm not accusing you of doing something stupid, I'm accusing you of doing something rather brilliant. Of course people's reads can change, but that is definitely not going to stop any mafia player from trying to get a good read on how to maneuver the kills and lynches to give themselves the best chance when LyLo arrives. The questions you've been asking appear to stem from the void, and they make it seem like you're actively working to better understand players by asking them read-relevant questions. From there comes the wave of town reads on RadicalFuzz that you've claimed to loathe.

This would not be an illogical strategy. This is not a backwards strategy. It is literally not an accusation I've ever made before -- you're the first. You're going to have to tell me exactly what you really had to gain from those questions or I'm going to have no reason to change my mind

I'm going to answer, but I want to say something before that. Keep an open mind. You have so far, and I'm not trying to insinuate otherwise, but I've seen a lot of players go down the road of "This would be smart for X to do as Mafia, wouldn't it? Therefore it must be what's happening and I have to stop it!"

List of my LyLo questions you had a bit ago, with my reasons in red:

Oh god that was a horrible color. Fixing now.

No. I'm not accusing you of doing something stupid, I'm accusing you of doing something rather brilliant. Of course people's reads can change, but that is definitely not going to stop any mafia player from trying to get a good read on how to maneuver the kills and lynches to give themselves the best chance when LyLo arrives. The questions you've been asking appear to stem from the void, and they make it seem like you're actively working to better understand players by asking them read-relevant questions. From there comes the wave of town reads on RadicalFuzz that you've claimed to loathe.

This would not be an illogical strategy. This is not a backwards strategy. It is literally not an accusation I've ever made before -- you're the first. You're going to have to tell me exactly what you really had to gain from those questions or I'm going to have no reason to change my mind

I'm going to answer, but I want to say something before that. Keep an open mind. You have so far, and I'm not trying to insinuate otherwise, but I've seen a lot of players go down the road of "This would be smart for X to do as Mafia, wouldn't it? Therefore it must be what's happening and I have to stop it!"

List of my LyLo questions you had a bit ago, with my reasons in yellow:

Ditto regarding Halloween stuff. Fine either way.

You think I'm scum/rogue trying to setup a favorable LYLO by asking players who'd they lynch between players A and B? The problem with that is you're expecting people to be static. If I asked Wilgy on Day 10 who he'd lynch between A and B, that could very easily change by Day 12/13. I'm dumb sometimes, but I'm aware that people are living things whose thoughts and opinions are going to change with facts and interpretations as time goes on. I'm kind of annoyed you'd attribute that to me after how I've played this game. If I was playing super illogically, then sure, no reason to assume that will change, but even if some things haven't made sense they haven't been downright backwards like that.

No time to catch up. Following Wilgy's vote onto Choutas.

Apologies if this causes distress to brains.

Diiny J3 still wants me lynched. This time he's specified the reason down just the Floyd interaction. As an aside, J3, you don't know how funny it is that you're crediting all of these "great townie mindsets" to a supposedly scum Fuzz. My scum game is pretty poor. Just got a chuckle out of that.

J3, weird question, but could you tell me your cleanest 3 players? Excluding yourself, of course.

Wilgy voted to break my tie and save me, so from a purely personal perspective I almost have to believe he's civilian at this point.

What have we become with these gifs

MM I find your word choice strange, yes. That word choice conveys a mindset that is strange to me. It is not related to reasons for suspecting people. The "angle" at which you're thinking, as assumed from your post in question, is not intuitive to civilians, in my opinion. I'm sorry that I haven't been very clear.

Diiny could you give me the quick and dirty on your suspicions of me? No rush, I'm headed out for the evening, but I'd appreciate it if you'd get back to me.

That siren gif is glorious

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I don't strongly believe Choutas to be civilian. On the contrary, I've made observations about some of his votes, and why I think they look bad. I even have my vote on him right now.

It is rarely a case in a game where info-dumping is not allowed, that someone can be cleared as civilian. I was emphasizing that despite his claim that he has never bussed a teammate as mafia, that doesn't mean he is not mafia.

I don't care about whether you think Choutas is town, scum, or a manhole cover. I am talking about your use of the word "dismiss." I believe that the word "dismiss" in that context provides insight that you would not be particularly thrilled to have a strong town read. The reasons for that town read are irrelevant to this conversation. I have difficulty seeing a civilian go "Oh, he's probably civilian, cool. I'll just leave him alone over there then," especially at this point in the game.

An unrelated question, MM: Did you change your vote to Choutas because you found suspicious things about him you didn't see yesterday, or because you changed your mind about the suspicions you held against me yesterday?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

RadicalFuzz wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

• a) Floyd is a new player. He looks like he's having fun in this game, but a lot of the action still probably has gone over his head, and there are potentially multiple scumslips that came from him, chiefly RadicalFuzz and Strawhenge interactions. Being a new player, he was going to get lynched eventually, so why not make a profit out of it?

Your argument is that Floyd was the most likely to be bussed out of the three Mafia that have been lynched so far.
You cite my hesitation to vote for Floyd as scummy.
Can you help me understand?
If he's the most likely to be bussed, and would've been lynched eventually anyway, you make it sound as if Mafia would be quick to vote him. I never did.

I'm trying to put things up for discussion RadicalFuzz. Why are you spinning these ideas with my suspicions of you? This post has every intent of discrediting my posts.

In my original post, I started by saying "If I had to rank the lynched mafia in terms of most likely to be bussed..." and offered reasons for each one. You conveniently cut that part out, and I do not appreciate this.


Sorry I missed this before. It must have been the obliterated posts around this one that caused me to miss it.

Sorry, I'm not cutting things out of quotes to intentionally misconstrue your words, it's just a force of habit. I'm also sorry that I'm not coming across clearly, or if I am I don't understand exactly what I'm saying. You say Floyd is the most likely to be bussed, if any Mafia were bussed. You're saying that my distancing from Floyd was not part of your suspicions against me?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

RadicalFuzz wrote:You can't "dismiss" him as civilian?

If you're town that's valuable information.
If you're scum you already knew that.
If you're SK his allegiance is mostly irrelevant to you.

Your statement sounds like it originates from the third viewpoint.

Again, you missed the point of my post, and even every piece of my post. Before I said we can't dismiss him as civilian, I acknowledged that it was a favorable look for him. Meta is (typically) important for reading a player, but it should not be the soul method for reading a player.

That's now twice you've misinterpreted my posts.

Here is the post:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Choutas wrote:MM your theory about me bussing teammates is wrong. You must have mistaken me with RDW who has bussed at least a dozen of players. I've never bussed someone and even if I did buss someday somehow I doubt I'd go full retard and buss half the team if I were scum.
Fwiw I was a member of the only perfect mafia win where we won without losing a single member. We could have bussed a teammate at the endgame but we decided to push for a townie lynch even harder and claim a perfect win.
This not me. Choutas doesn't roll like that.

That certainly stands in your favor.

But I can't just dismiss you as civilian because of that.

Linki:

I'm looking at this in context, with the qualifier beforehand. "That certainly looks good for you but I can't just dismiss you as civilian" is a weird statement for a civilian to make. It reads as if you don't care about the fact that you strongly believe someone to be civilian, it's downplaying that.

You can't "dismiss" him as civilian?

If you're town that's valuable information.
If you're scum you already knew that.
If you're SK his allegiance is mostly irrelevant to you.

Your statement sounds like it originates from the third viewpoint.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

RadicalFuzz wrote:Is that the result of putting a spoiler in a spoiler on this site?

I had an extra [quote opening tag in mine, but didn't close it. That combined with the spoiler tags did it though.

The spoilers we have weren't built for our site, and we've only had them here for the last few months or so, so they are relatively new. My understanding is that they are still quite tweaky, and that's related to why we can't embed spoilers in spoilers.

Hi RadicalFuzz. What have you to say today?

That makes sense, then, thanks for the info.

Let's see, lemme get a short list going.

-Could you answer my question from a bit earlier? I don't get where you're coming from.
-I'm glad you're not on the poll because it means I'm not the only one disconcerted by your behavior.
-I'm curious as to who was blocked last night. Take Me To The River clearly targeted you, barring "secrets" shenanigans, and someone else.
-I'm also interested to note what allegiance Take Me To The River thinks you are. If he targeted you for the role-block ability, he likely doubts you're town. If for the "not on the poll" ability, he trusts that you're civilian.
-SK killed twice. From reading through the roles I don't see how. My current assumption is that it's in the "secrets" part of the role.

And J3, as for my responses being underwhelming, what did you expect? My actions are objectively horrible, that was pointed out repeatedly yesterday. I am curious at how seemingly everyone decided that my "tone" (or whatever reason they were townreading me until recently) was no longer enough to be a townread right around the same time. For the record I don't necessarily think you're Mafia because of your push against me. It originated from an ISO and it was a logical conclusion. There are more reasons to believe you're clean than scummy, the biggest contributor for me being your attempted counterwagon onto Black Rock combined with your attempted counterwagon onto Diiny the day Mac was lynched. You would've preferred a BR lynch and asked for traction for that first. Scum saving scum wouldn't try to form a new wagon against scum if they had other options. Additionally, that's assuming that Diiny is civilian. If Diiny is scum then that makes even less sense. I can't see you doing that if you were able to make an informed decision.

Wilgy, if you had to vote between J3 and Rico, gun to your head LYLO, who would you choose?

Is that the result of putting a spoiler in a spoiler on this site?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

• a) Floyd is a new player. He looks like he's having fun in this game, but a lot of the action still probably has gone over his head, and there are potentially multiple scumslips that came from him, chiefly RadicalFuzz and Strawhenge interactions. Being a new player, he was going to get lynched eventually, so why not make a profit out of it?

Your argument is that Floyd was the most likely to be bussed out of the three Mafia that have been lynched so far.
You cite my hesitation to vote for Floyd as scummy.
Can you help me understand?
If he's the most likely to be bussed, and would've been lynched eventually anyway, you make it sound as if Mafia would be quick to vote him. I never did.

Point taken. I apologize for assigning dumb illogical things to your name J3. But you'll understand my out-of-context frustrations at the timing of the events I returned to.

No more logical Fuzz. I'm headed out for the night and when I get back tomorrow it will be war.

"Shoving discrediting words"
By definition the term inb4 means you haven't said it yet. As in, "in before some future action happens I am going to predict this future action."

If you have a problem with what I think you might do then address it. But don't pretend I claimed you did something you didn't.

I just survived a lynch by the skin of my teeth. If you're going to try to claim that civ-Fuzz shouldn't be nervous there then you can go ahead and stop right now.

inb4 J3 spins this as a scum counter wagon save "but mine was civs"

Apologies sig, your legacy will be honored in the coming empire.

Going to attempt to save my life by voting Sig.

Hopefully I'll be back to have a nice chat with J3 tomorrow. If not, could you guys pressure him for me? Thanks.

J3's out for the night, I believe.

DrWilgy wrote:Anyone willing to lynch JJJ today? I do not want Fuzz to be lynched at this point, and will save him if needed.

I think I now understand why JJJ didn't chime in on my thoughts from previous on the SK.

I'd be down, but it'd admittedly be largely self-preservation. Avalon flashbacks, Wilgy?

I'll have to go in roughly 30 minutes btw. I can make a quick check-in an hour from now, but I'll have to leave for class after that.

It's not being nice, it's wanting to give him a chance to fail. My first game I was Mafia and made a comeback for the win. I have a large ego and enjoy it when other people fail things I succeeded at. It falls under "illogical" all the same. I'm curious though, are you going to vote me for it?

Wilgy you son of a bitch I just realized what you did. J3 is my answer, you should be able to tell the exact timing but I doubt I can go into that.

Okay Elo, thanks for elaborating.

Diiny you are correct. I thought I made that abundantly clear at the time. I posted that I found it objectively scummy but wasn't going to personally pursue it. I attempted to be clear that I was aware my decision was an illogical one.

And as for the "I see what you're putting down" comment I made to Mac, that's another enigma that will have to be revealed post-game. Even to me.

Diiny I didn't push him because I didn't want to lynch him in his first game for that. It was emotion-driven ignorance. I thought he might become engaged in his defense, but that was not the case. I don't regret not pushing him, I'd do it again every time.

I see. Players are using that connection as a way to check Rico and/or me/Diiny. I'm dirtier than Rico, so they're more comfortable with lynching me for this scenario. That makes sense, unfortunately.

DrWilgy wrote:I'll comment on Fuzz as soon as I'm at a computer.

A summary would be: Fuzz is dangerous neutral in my head. Meta makes me think he isn't scum. Everything else makes me feel that Fuzz is a Sith Lord.

I have an overwhelming desire to choke you because I know you're finding this hilarious. Does that help?

MM the reason I thought you were town without asking you is unable to be spoken due to the rules of this game.

Eloh basically you're lynching me half because you think I'm actually scum, and half because there's a connection between Rico and I that led you to a conclusion that if I am scum he is most definitely town? What is that connection?

motel room wrote:

RadicalFuzz wrote: MM I'm trying to express annoyance.

Ew phrasing. How do you actually feel?

I'm trying to express that I feel annoyed...?

He reminds me of Flounder the fish.

Bullz it's Monday in most time zones and Tuesday in some. The weekend already ended. I am confused.



MM I'm trying to express annoyance. My actions from last week are perceived to be scummy when I'm out of town. The main pusher of my wagon is currently not available because of time zones. I'm not attempting to suggest you ignore posts simply because you didn't speak up at the time, I'm confused as to how those actions in and of themselves seemed to have magically become more scummy. I apologize that I've forgotten your comments on my actions. If I was scum giving up I would be having way more fun than I am right now.

And the reason I was fine with you reading me as town for seemingly no reason was because I had a reason to believe you thought I was town because of other reasons. You know exactly what you're doing with this vote though, I know that for a fact, and that's why I'm frustrated. I know that explanation sucks but I can't go further than that.

Elo, since you're here, why did you vote for me?

Strawhenge wrote:Broken record stopping in to vote Metalmarsh and to not get any traction on it. Bye.

I feel your pain. Nobody cares for a Wilgy vote either.

I thought I understood his motivations, but I've apparently misconstrued them. I'll look at him more closely.

Oh the endless joy of time zone differences, how I've missed thee.

I think bcornett is a strange individual. I don't think he's particularly helpful in any sense of the word, but I can't tell if that's because he's scum or if he's just not helpful.

When you say that "we voted for several options that would affect the game in some way or another," you mean J3 and yourself? I'm assuming these options weren't public and can't be shared, correct?

Metalmarsh I'm not talking about a full-fledged ISO of interactions, I'm talking about basic stuff. "Oh, he's only voted for one person for three days when 2 Mafia have been lynched! That's strange." Or perhaps "he called for a Chinese Fire Drill and then the Mafia member almost survived the lynch!" I had been literally asking to be scumread, but nobody spoke up. I mentioned how horrible my actions looked as I called for the Chinese Fire Drill, yet nobody cared to comment on them, whether to agree or disagree. Do you see why I invite suspicion? So that this exact thing doesn't happen. The finer points of interactions, fair enough, that takes a degree of hindsight, time, and effort not immediately available five minutes after a lynch. But calling for a CFD on a player that turned out to be scum? That should've gotten me crucified on the spot, but no match was lit. I don't believe any player citing that point cared to mention that, in addition to calling for a CFD when Mac was on the chopping block, I kept my vote on Wilgy. I neither started, nor contributed, to the counter-wagon on Diiny, that was J3's doing.

Actually, since I seem to lack understanding about the game, what was the point of Day/Dusk 0? Two players were elected for CEO or something, does that award them a prize? Was Dusk 0 a standard night phase before Day 1?

I see, I had assumed you were familiar with the site rules. That point is struck down then, replaced with tentative confusion.

My point was, my actions at the time I did them seemed to cause no alarm. What day were the GTH reads where I was unanimous town? Pretty sure they were after the Mac lynch, maybe before the Floyd lynch. Why did it take until recently for people to decide my interactions with a dead scum looked poor?

And no, it's not about me being out of town. It's about the dam of trust you built for me before you turned on Niagara Falls and washed it all away.

After reading through the roles again I can confirm I have no idea what he was/is doing.

I am not aware of what he was planning.

I think I have the gist of the suspicions against me. My interactions with all of the dead scum are atrocious. My multiple soft defenses of Mac, in addition to my literal call for a Chinese Fire Drill off of him, look bad. I understood that when I made those posts. What I don't understand is how those actions are somehow made scummier when I leave town.

I CTRL+F'd my name and quickly skimmed so if I missed something I apologize. Repeat the question and I'll answer it.

Metalmarsh you're going to look very bad soon and you know why. You are either the worst kind of civilian, who throws logical thought out the window, or scum.

Matt - Wilgy knows the infodumping rules on this site. I find it much more likely that he didn't have any "plan" to begin with and just went "gosh darn that didn't work" after asking a basic infodumping question.

J3, your quote here that says "civilian Matt is cool with extending the lifespan of potential bad guys for absolutely no reason relevant to thread content [rolls eyes-smiley]" is an interesting one. You've looked at my reasons for not voting Floyd multiple times but never expressed annoyance at those. Why does Matt taking the same action (illogical reason for not voting someone) bug you? And if you have questions you want to answer please list them, I didn't start this response until after I had read your ISOs.

I haven't read anything, but I'm voting Wilgy again. Unknown if I will be able to return before phase end.