The Syndicate

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:53 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:45 pm You have not analysed the Sean NK to a degree I find satisfying.

Your view of a Wilgy check potentially breaking open the game does not seem to have come to fruition as far as I can tell.

Is that ok phrasing?

1) I think this expectation is unfair but go off
2) It might have. It’s huge in my Boq review. A mafia flip would have broken the game open more, I acknowledge.
3) phrase as you please, poop head

Anyway I’m going to leave this here. I don’t want this argument lording over the thread

1) Why?
1b) Would you say it's unfair to expect Boq to care about your interaction analysis, which you speak highly of in your ISO of Boq, when you didn't even respect it enough regarding Wilgy in the exercise where you wanted a check on Wilgy? Cause there you said it was a low bar in this game.
2) Sure
3) You love me

lucy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:47 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:23 pm One of the teams that would make the most sense and be beautiful right now is Jimmay/Boq/Finger, however I have a reason for town reading Boq that I think is strong, and I also don't really think Finger is mafia.

Jimmay + Marmot also makes a lot of sense, however I town read Marmot.

I'm wondering if Creature is so called threadspewed from Alison and Jimmay. Not sure about this.

arriving at my tinfoil thought process are we, nonetheless I think you should read when I got voted by Sean and after, I think that clears marmot and jjj as two mafia members because it'd be too obvious for them to work in tandem like that

Yeah, I already kind of think Jimmay and Marmot are not teamed. Marmot's first read, serious or not, was that Jimmay was town for not being stilted. I largely town read Marmot anyway. I'd say he's out of his scum range, yet I'm still bit hesitant without knowing why really. He just sounds funny at some points.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:48 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:44 pm @JaggedJimmyJay However, if you are town, I'm curious what you think of the Boq/Fingers interaction I have previously noted.

If you have specifically theorized why this works already I cannot find it. Otherwise I’ll look at ISOs later when I’m not on mobile. Off-hand I don’t know of a reason to dissociate them.

Their interaction is just particularly weird.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:44 pm Would greatly appreciate any perspectives on my Boq review. My present view of the game largely hinges on that.

I have gripes with Boq too. Mainly how he treats Marmot D2. I'd expect more pressure and care there, especially since Mac died. There's also little things, like reasoning seeming extremely thin. Like Ender is town for being stubborn. And me and Marmot are not teamed because I said I town read Alison and Marmot. That seems a bit unreal tbh.

Very interesting how he continuously null reads you in spite of others. Kind of like Fingers null reads him in spite of others.

I think he fits well as your teammate actually.

He said something I see few mafia say. However, I just played a game where I tested out my ability to micro read (pluck town out from saying statements mafia rarely says). It was less successful that I hoped.

All in all, Boq can certainly be mafia.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:41 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:39 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:36 pm As for Wilgy: I have heavily incorporated Wilgy’s flip into my analyses today. It’s a major recurring theme. I AM using that information. Interact with the walls.

Of course you are. That was not my point.

And yes, I will be reading your walls.

What I will not do is going back and forth in a long discussion with you about this and that which totally misses my points and the game state. I'm sure you can argue till the cows come home, but if I think you are mafia, I'm just going to vote you anyway. Similar to how I do it if I see Hally or anyone else particularly strong as mafia. Which is really unfair if you are town. But a lot of arguing details isn't likely to get you anywhere, but I will read and think about everything.

I’m not asking for an exchange. I don’t want that either. But I do want you to deal with all of my content before you tell me it isn’t there.

You have not analysed the Sean NK to a degree I find satisfying.

Your view of a Wilgy check potentially breaking open the game does not seem to have come to fruition as far as I can tell.

Is that ok phrasing?

@JaggedJimmyJay However, if you are town, I'm curious what you think of the Boq/Fingers interaction I have previously noted.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:36 pm As for Wilgy: I have heavily incorporated Wilgy’s flip into my analyses today. It’s a major recurring theme. I AM using that information. Interact with the walls.

Of course you are. That was not my point.

And yes, I will be reading your walls.

What I will not do is going back and forth in a long discussion with you about this and that which totally misses my points and the game state. I'm sure you can argue till the cows come home, but if I think you are mafia, I'm just going to vote you anyway. Similar to how I do it if I see Hally or anyone else particularly strong as mafia. Which is really unfair if you are town. But a lot of arguing details isn't likely to get you anywhere, but I will read and think about everything.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:34 pm Dizzy I will answer that stuff later in full, but I want to protest one thing right now. It’s just untrue to say I haven’t looked into the Sean kill at all. I’ve said it’s a major factor in my view of Creature.

Ok. That doesn't move me though.

So you think Sean over you/Alison/Boq could be because it makes Creature more choppable? How do you reconcile Ender town reading Creature then?

I think that's a weak analysis of it overall in any case.

I'm at the point where I'm town shielding Ender, so have fun with that, wolves.

Egg on my face later etc

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:21 pm Here are some anti-teamings I plotted down while reading. Ask if they are weird

Finger/Alison
Finger/Creature
Boq/Alison
Ender/Jimmay
Marmot/Finger ?
Creature/Ender EoD1?

Alison would bus Finger probably

I'm sure there are more anti-alignments, and I'll take suggestions.

Lucy/Marmot probably one

Alison saying Ender/Jimmay came out of nowhere and wondering about theatre is strange as fuck. Like, that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Ender
Rondo
Lucy
Marmot
Boq???
Nate???

Trying to make town reads. I probably do have words, but it's 5:30 am here now

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:08 am JJJ is town because he isn't stilted off the face of the earth.

Maybe strike the possible Jimmay/Marmot connection. Marmot should be town here, I don't know why I'm so worried. But the NKs don't look good for him.

I have gripes with Alison again. Unless Fingers is mafia, she is way off.

@Boquise You're pointing out that you think there's mafia between you/Alison/Jimmay, yet I don't see you go hard in figuring out which one (or both) of Alison and Jimmay that is. What gives?

One of the teams that would make the most sense and be beautiful right now is Jimmay/Boq/Finger, however I have a reason for town reading Boq that I think is strong, and I also don't really think Finger is mafia.

Jimmay + Marmot also makes a lot of sense, however I town read Marmot.

I'm wondering if Creature is so called threadspewed from Alison and Jimmay. Not sure about this.

Here are some anti-teamings I plotted down while reading. Ask if they are weird

Finger/Alison
Finger/Creature
Boq/Alison
Ender/Jimmay
Marmot/Finger ?
Creature/Ender EoD1?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:57 pm

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:35 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:52 am

Boquise wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:46 am Let's have an exercise
If you had an alignment check, who would be your first pick to check and why?

Wilgy

I think that sort would potentially break the game open

Huh hm
In your analysis of interactions, he is in the least amount of worlds though? Wouldn't it be better to pick someone who has equity with plenty of people?

That's a low bar in this game, unfortunately (least amount of worlds). To know that DrWilgy is town would secure me more in my process and give me important insights about a number of folks that have interacted with his slot throughout the game, including those who've town read him. A mafia Wilgy might represent a narrow POE.

In any event, ain't no checks

I think this whole line is pretty damning for Jimmay.

Recall that he did an interaction analysis who showed that Wilgy was not compatible with a lot of people, and had a town lean on Wilgy. The answer of wanting a cop check on Wilgy doesn't make sense, especially with people like me and Alison in the game. I don't understand how it would break the game open, and if it did - THE GAME IS OPEN NOW @JaggedJimmyJay

When confronted about this, I'm not at all satisfied with his answer. Now he is undermining his own interaction analysis, saying it's a low bar to in this game. And he ends the discussion with saying there are no checks, which reads very "no checks anyway, so nothing to worry about".

I don't like this at all.

Plenty of things I don't like about Jimmay. He hasn't asked why Sean died or got into NKA with that, like he did with Mac.
I don't buy his Ender push either.

He's also being weird around Marmot's town case of Fingers.

I don't expect to make a great case on Jimmay here, but I'm pretty positive he's mafia here. So I hope I'm right, cause I'm unlikely to change my vote.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:00 pm I do think you are favouring his logical consistency and state in thread a lot more than I am

I think he would break his scum range hard if he's mafia here tbh

@Alison What do you think of Marmot's defence of Fingers?

NateTheLesser wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:35 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:14 pm @NateTheLesser I still owe Creature a full reassessment, but my initial perception on Day 3 is that a Seanzie kill may point to a town Creature. Seanzie protected him pretty staunchly, while people like myself and a few others that have been anti-Creature much of the game are still here. I wonder if that represents an invitation for us to kill him without the same resistance.

I think it's more likely that the NK will aimed at direct threats, rather than removing protection for a mischop. Not that it couldn't serve both purposes.

But there's something more here. Sean arguably lead the chop on Wilgy by asking people to vote him. Why NK Sean when he was loudly wrong? Sean had several other suspicions, no tunnels.

Kind of tired of Nate talking about "middle wagon votes". Maybe it's a chart thing. But ugh.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:29 am (If it wasn't clear, I am wondering if this is scum theatre.)

That seems unbelievable from you. Jimmay tried to get Ender chopped on D2. He does not do that when there are other easy targets on the table. He doesn't bus for the hell of it. And Ender's suss on Jimmay has been brewing for some time.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:36 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:40 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:39 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:37 pm I'll begin here: I think Boq is strictly town now. I found a general town tell that I've never seen fail before. If he is the first, so be it. That plus the detail of what he's noticing is enough for me.

It is extremely important that you expand on this when you're able. I have a different view.

I won't, because I intend to use it again. I'm interested to hear your view though.

I want feedback on this.

Yeah, I'm still not done reading D3. Will get back to you.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:32 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:27 pm I think it's relevant if we're discussing NKA. If you just revived the PoE to discuss it for a different purpose, then it's not relevant. I'm very excited to see your NKA of the Sean kill. Haven't gotten that far yet.

I haven’t performed a dedicated analysis of the Sean kill. I might yet if it seems prudent given the time allotted.

Tell me what the Mac kill means for Marmot.

You haven't? Interesting, since you talked about how you thought NKA was important D2.

I don't know what it means for Marmot. But Mac did say he'd tunnel Marmot if Falcon flipped town. So that's why I think it would be relevant in a NKA of Mac. My point here is not really to talk about Marmot though. But to talk about and with you.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:29 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:26 pm @EnderWiggin Why do you read Creature town? EoD 1, why, what happened? He's whining and doing absolutely nothing. Sometimes he's defaulting to voting me. He's complaining about Mac's list while still following it. He said I was mafia siding when I was voting Wilgy, while he himself considered Wilgy suspect and ended up voting there. Like wtf. It's useless at best and just wolf at worst. I have big questions about this. That said, I have scarier fish to fry tbh

The townread is based on the fact that I don't believe he cared about self-preservation during that EOD.

Which is not a sensation I feel associated with wolves much.

I'll look into it again I guess.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:57 amThis isn't a horrible readslist. I would put Dizzy lower but it seems like you are re-evalling him anyway. I think Creature is town too but for slightly different reasons - he showed up at two EODs where a town LHF was run down and spent the entire time bitching and whining about how we're getting it wrong when he could have just sat there, voteparked falcon/Wilgy and started eating popcorn if he was scum.

How confident are you on your Rondo read?

His bitching and moaning is just like eating popcorn though. It seems like a parody. He also voted a LHF himself, and defaulted to me when I was semi-LHF. Why the bitching and moaning about Mac's horrible PoE post, and then following it?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:25 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:20 pm You are notably not including Marmot here, which Mac promised to tunnel if Falcon was town. Do you not think that is relevant?

He’s certainly not relevant to the post I was discussing. He’s not in it. Hey may or may not be relevant otherwise, but I was speaking specifically of the “auto” POE that Mac posted.

I think it's relevant if we're discussing NKA. If you just revived the PoE to discuss it for a different purpose, then it's not relevant. I'm very excited to see your NKA of the Sean kill. Haven't gotten that far yet.

@EnderWiggin Why do you read Creature town? EoD 1, why, what happened? He's whining and doing absolutely nothing. Sometimes he's defaulting to voting me. He's complaining about Mac's list while still following it. He said I was mafia siding when I was voting Wilgy, while he himself considered Wilgy suspect and ended up voting there. Like wtf. It's useless at best and just wolf at worst. I have big questions about this. That said, I have scarier fish to fry tbh

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:23 am

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:41 am I have a kinda busy day today, so I'll be around slightly less. (Will still be around though.) Will be totally free tomorrow.

It feels like fingersplints was saved by this last minute Wilgy wagon and she is currently my top suspect.

Why wasn't I saved by that EOD wagon?

Or why wasn't Fingers saved be your wagon as well? Etc

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:22 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:23 pm I kinda think that there is a necessary auto period here.

Like there is a line and those below it have to all die before those above it because if the mafia are all above it the game is already over and we are wasting our time and that's very unlikely.

Line

Dyslexicon
Creature
Falcon
DrWilgy

For some reason I don't want to put Fingersplints below the line. I think Dyslexicon has the most chance of being town but I can't reasonably put him above it.

Mac’s POE is 0 for 2 so far. I think this makes Dizzy and Creature among the most important slots to sort this phase. Whatever their alignments, if we can develop clearer impressions that might provide us with good insight into the mafia mindset in this game. My initial gut points to a town Creature, and I don’t think Dizzy has to be mafia. If this POE had 0-1 mafia in it, then I think we can start to build worlds surrounding “the maintenance of the status quo” as a premier mafia agenda.

I’m just thinking aloud here. I will develop this further when I can.

You are notably not including Marmot here, which Mac promised to tunnel if Falcon was town. Do you not think that is relevant?

I'm not going to tinfoil Marmot anymore. He just sounds awkward when he responds to me sometimes, and that is ok.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:14 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:50 pm @EnderWiggin I feel like you've been very hedgy on Rondo. Why? If I didn't know better, I'd be worried that you wanted to hedge to avoid Rondo to get suspicious of you.

I'm around briefly. Things have been quite busy irl.

As for Rondo, he is aware of how I read in a way that only maybe Thunal can rival. I'm hedgy on him because it is difficult to actually find something I can 100% townread him for.

Usually this will be the case.

I did hard shield him in his first few games because I knew he'd get wagoned early if I didn't.

This answer leaves a lot to be desired. I've seen little things here and there that I want to town read Rondo for. Is it possible for you to do an ISO there to get a firmer grasp?

Right now I have the same town core as you.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:11 pm @Marmot Sometimes I feel you should be at least three times more paranoid of me than you seem to be. What do you think?

Never mind. I don't know why I struggle. Game state, you have a high chance of being mafia. Meta wise, you are breaking out of your meta if you are mafia. Does that make sense?

@Marmot Sometimes I feel you should be at least three times more paranoid of me than you seem to be. What do you think?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:01 pm I struggled to read Lucy yesterday, and was hoping that her big case would shed some light on her thoughts. It seems like she's not going to do it after all, though.

I think I'd sum up my view on Lucy as being a mixed bag. I find myself liking her when she is making posts and coasting along, but when she comes under pressure she starts flailing in a way that bothers me. I cannot tell if she is a mafia member who's cracking under pressure after coasting along early, or if she just responds poorly to pressure and my initial assessment was accurate.

I have generally found her worldview to be at odds with mine and this deepens my concern. @lucy, do you still endorse your Boq/JJJ/Rondo towncore?

I really like her persistent questioning and interest in Marmot and his relationship to Jay, and how they were treating her. That looked like real thoughts to me, and actual concern. I also liked how she commented how this game seemed harder than her quali, but I am admittedly a sucker for little comments like that.

EnderWiggin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:04 pm AT most one wolf in Dizzy/Boq/Rondo tbh.

But I think there's none.

Yes. New town core activate.

Creature wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:49 pm It seems wolves know if they whine enough they can save themselves from being lynched

Where did this come from? You are the one whining.

@EnderWiggin I feel like you've been very hedgy on Rondo. Why? If I didn't know better, I'd be worried that you wanted to hedge to avoid Rondo to get suspicious of you.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:42 pmI definitely don't think they're all town.

Your full current view of me?

Rondo is also very townie to me.
One question though,
@RondoDimBuckle The one game I played with you, you were town siding 3p. You were a lot more tunnely in that game. Here you seem more careful and considerate, though not really going anywhere. Do you think that is a fair assessment? Do you know why that is?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:39 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:37 pm I'll begin here: I think Boq is strictly town now. I found a general town tell that I've never seen fail before. If he is the first, so be it. That plus the detail of what he's noticing is enough for me.

It is extremely important that you expand on this when you're able. I have a different view.

I won't, because I intend to use it again. I'm interested to hear your view though.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:38 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:31 pm @JaggedJimmyJay How capable do you think Marmot is of fooling you?

How much did you care about Marmot's defence of Finger, and how did that inform your view of Finger. Cause it looks to me like you didn't care much at all, while being very aware of it.

I think he's reasonably capable of fooling me in the sense that his game should be respected. I'm not sure it's happened that many times though.

Marmot's view of fingersplints has meant something to me. It has not redefined my view of splints, because I think there are still concerns to be addressed with her slot, but perhaps it has made some difference to encourage my voting hands to other people to this point.

Why has it not redefined your view on Splints? If Marmot is wrong, would you not care to argue against his town case? Marmot seems sure.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:36 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:35 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:34 pmI don't feel that way. What makes you think that?

D2 you were gunning for Finger, Ender and me. For example. But I'll come back to this probably.

That's accurate. Why's it a bad direction?

Probably all town. But as I said, I'll come back to this

I'll begin here: I think Boq is strictly town now. I found a general town tell that I've never seen fail before. If he is the first, so be it. That plus the detail of what he's noticing is enough for me.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:34 pmI don't feel that way. What makes you think that?

D2 you were gunning for Finger, Ender and me. For example. But I'll come back to this probably.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:31 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:20 pm @Alison Would very much like your thoughts on Jimmay and Creature in particular

I gave them in some detail before the break; I have JJJ in my immediate POE and a comfortable townread on Creature.

Oh ok. I should get up to speed totally first.

I feel like your direction has probably been quite bad this game so far. What do you think?

@JaggedJimmyJay How capable do you think Marmot is of fooling you?

How much did you care about Marmot's defence of Finger, and how did that inform your view of Finger. Cause it looks to me like you didn't care much at all, while being very aware of it.

Scolding reviews from Nate tbh

@Alison Would very much like your thoughts on Jimmay and Creature in particular