The Syndicate

https://discord.gg/UBCM4aq

For anyone who wants to see scum chat. Mac wanted to delete a couple of posts, I didn't delete any of mine except the ones that directly referenced the posts he deleted.

Hey tutuu you're one of the players I most enjoyed playing with this game and of all time, along with dunya and Hally. You did so well that we shot your slot even after you subbed out, purely because of how obvtown you were. Keep your chin up. <3

Also Hally, your self-protect WIFOM would have worked, we wanted to retract the kill on you but timezones meant we were too late and it went through.

Sorry for shooting you Hally! There was some discussion on whether or not Mac would shoot a new player who just subbed in, and it was totally my idea. Mac wanted to shoot dunya N1. For myself, I've never played on a forum where newness or sub status was ever a consideration in making a shot, so I just killed whoever I thought was the best nightkill. I'll have to change that if I want to start playing here, just in order to avoid spewing people like dunya and Epi town every time I do...

This was a pretty challenging game for me, since I lost Rej and Soneji really early on, and the associatives with them weren't the best either (a few players picked those up, too). In addition, all members of the wolf team came under fire very early on and I even scumslipped in my second post in the thread. I really enjoyed it though, because the pressure forced me to really put effort into staying alive. There were many points in the game where things looked grim and I had to just focus on playing as best as I can and putting the outcome out of my mind. (Mac gave us 5% odds of winning at a couple of points throughout the game.)

I suspect the setup is a little scumsided, if nutella blasts half the wolf team away D1 and D2, it should not only take a couple of bad shots to put town on the brink of losing. That was with quite a few of our kills blocked as well.

Thanks to all for playing. I most enjoyed playing with dunya, Hally and tutuu this game and hope to play with them more soon. Mega props to Carot for catching me really early on and never letting go. Proto, I love your playing style, I can empathize with it a lot (although in this case I used our similar thought processes to try to pocket you).

As I said to Mac in the scumthread, I've been really impressed with the friendly community and quality of play here and intend on making this my homesite for the future. Thanks everyone for the game!

Fun facts:
- dunya, nanook, and Dizzy were all very close to being nightkilled because we believed they would "never eat a laser".

- We were like 95% sure the game's outcome was already decided one way or another on the last day, so we just decided to sort of screw around and make it seem like I was doing the world's worst bus on proto, in the hopes that we could maybe scam town out of a victory if someone had indeed holster bluffed and had a save left.

- We also considered playing tic tac toe in thread on Day 7... but we decided there was still a miniscule % chance of tricking nutella so we decided to play properly.

Good game, everyone! Thank you all for playing. Carot, sorry for the aggression. I had to push you once you claimed the Epi save because we lose if you're cleared by it. dunya, sorry for the AtE and the "enjoy being humiliated postgame" stuff. AtE is very far out of my usual playbook and I thought it might pocket proto/nutella. I didn't mean it needless to say <3

nutella, don't feel bad about not finding the team earlier. Your job is far harder than most people, because the entire alien team is basing all of their game plan around trying to trick you and you specifically. We said explicitly in the wolf chat that we were going to not care about anyone's reads and just focus on pocketing you. In that respect what may be obvious to someone else wouldn't be obvious to you. You did really well shooting half the wolf team D1 and D2.

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:12 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:03 am page 90 is literally just proto outing himself as wolf

if you don't see that and aren't willing to re-evaluate then don't put the blame on me when you end up losing the game. bye
I'm not an alien. I wouldn't blame anyone for anything this game. Aliens played well. I will say that.

If you are town please please please just post the links before you peace out.

I'm not giving you the links because you don't intend to use them to figure out my alignment. You intend to manipulate nutella into letting you win the game for free. Well played to you - you had me fooled most of the game and you were a pretty damn deep wolf. In a way you deserve the win. But if I have my way you won't get it.

Flipless requires you to play the game completely differently than before. It's a whole new paradigm shift. It opens up a lot of cheeky things you can do, too. Like read a cop breadcrumb D1, kill them as scum, and then claim cop with no CC in an open setup. Flipless setups are slightly trickier to balance and you do need to give the town strength to compensate for there being no flips, but they're very rewarding in my experience when set up well.

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:59 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:54 am So how do you like it here Proto?
I'm liking forum the most out of all formats. The people in syndicate are absurdly nice as well.

If I had one wish, it would be more games running on syndicate with open setups with claiming and info dumping allowed.

You probably just need to convert me into loving closed games.

Glad you got me to try forum @MacDougall

That said I agree with this post though. The people here are really very lovely.

My preference is open flipless setups. Those are the most fun to play, although they're very stressful for town.

page 90 is literally just proto outing himself as wolf

if you don't see that and aren't willing to re-evaluate then don't put the blame on me when you end up losing the game. bye

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:30 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:25 am I think Alison is outed but I cannot figure out which of the others is her partner. Nothing makes a great deal of sense.
Views on my pure read and sample size and Alison's refusal to provide links? Aggressiveness seems to have suddenly spiked through the roof.

@MacDougall

You are trying to get Mac to respond with something that you can twist and misrep into an attack, because you know that nutella will buy it due to how tunnelled she has been on Mac. Unfortunately for you, I'm here to call you out. Nutella, if you're willing to see reason at all and want to win this game, read this post and think about the possibility of a proto/carot team. It makes sense and you know it.

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:26 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:19 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:16 pm Who is alien?

Is it me?

Is it Carotenoid?

Is it protocultures?

Is it Alison?
We're never getting there on you so no point.

Carot has felt very pure but Nutella was right about her EOD yesterday and opening here. I had the exact same thought.

I don't know what Proto's range is but I don't know if legit anyone has what he's done in his mafia range.

Alison is alien or we lose basically.
In the space of 2 hours, you go from scum reading me (last evidence from your post that my violin pic was "fake town") to being town. This type of progression is weird. Sorry Mac if you are town I still can't see it.

Let me help you figure out why Mac is town.

Go to the "Private Messages" button at the top of the screen, click it, and then click on the role card for this game that DDL sent you. See how it lists your teammates as "Carotenoid, Rej and Soneji", and how MacDougall isn't in that list? That's how you know he's town.

Right now the only thing I care about is showing nutella your true alignment so she shoots you and ends the game.

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:02 am The delay or refusal to link previous games feels like you aren't going to show us or you are backtesting my theory currently to see if it holds any water and whether you need to plan a defence post before proving links.

No, I'm refusing to link previous games because I think you're scum, your response to my accusation proves it and I feel no need to expend extra effort of digging up my old games just so you can make up some more nonsense about how it proves that I'm scum.

protocultures wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:31 am
Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:06 am
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:01 pm This last 2 weeks have been so bad irl and I've been like doing my best here and sort of trying to use mafia to take my mind off things and im just having a full meltdown no omg im sorry
...is this just town Mac?

Like, I believe AtE can come from scum in an endgame situation, but why here? All wolf Mac has to do is sit back and shrug his shoulders and shitpost while letting nutella kill me. Why does scum Mac fake a breakdown here, especially in such a manipulative way that it makes them look like a jerk for trying to tug on people's emotions postgame when they're revealed to be wolf and it becomes clear this was faked?
If your statement is true re Mac sitting back and watching you get lasered, why can't it be true for wolf proto sitting back and watch you get lasered? I don't need to flip my read on you at all and you don't even believe that.

Because you're gloating/rubbing it in. The whole way you played that was so fucking slimy and self-assured. You've been towncleared the whole game and you're getting cocky at endgame because you think you'll win. If nutella sees reason, you won't.

Mac is the opposite. He's genuinely upset, overwhelmed and having a breakdown. Frustration from missing a shot last night as wolf? Maybe, but the wolf team has to be in fine shape here if nutella is thinking of shooting me. I have a hard time imagining a wolf having a breakdown in this kind of way. It paints him as a manipulative player who's willing to fake the basest sort of emotion to gain sympathy by pretending he's hurting IRL, and that just makes people think badly of him and trust him less in future games for very little gain right now.

That is the difference between the actions between the two of you. Mac is town. You are scum.

I think it's proto/Carot. They were good cop/bad copping the entire game. Proto pockets me, Carot attacks me. Proto attacks Epi, Carot pockets Epi. Proto attacks Mac, Carot pockets Mac. And now they are probably having a giggle in the scum chat watching nutella decide between shooting me or Mac because nutella won't re-evaluate her reads even after shooting wrong like 4 times in a row.

nutella, if you shoot me here, you lose the game. Blast Carot and Proto. Look at how Proto coalesced into a push on me the moment you declared intent to shoot me. He stops pocketing/buddying me because there's no point in doing it any more now that he thinks I'm going to be shot for sure.

The whole "pure" read is scum overextending in order to gloat because they're so sure they have the game on lock. nutella, I urge you to prove them wrong.

Really? You reconsidered the person you've been townshielding all game over all manner of attacks and pushes over me saying "pure" in one game I rolled mafia but not in the game I rolled town?

I don't believe that.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:01 pm This last 2 weeks have been so bad irl and I've been like doing my best here and sort of trying to use mafia to take my mind off things and im just having a full meltdown no omg im sorry

...is this just town Mac?

Like, I believe AtE can come from scum in an endgame situation, but why here? All wolf Mac has to do is sit back and shrug his shoulders and shitpost while letting nutella kill me. Why does scum Mac fake a breakdown here, especially in such a manipulative way that it makes them look like a jerk for trying to tug on people's emotions postgame when they're revealed to be wolf and it becomes clear this was faked?

this proto "pure" read on me is nonsensical and that is very unlike proto, who's a very logical player. Someone as math oriented as him has to know that me using "pure" a few times in one game and not at all in the other game I was mafia, or in the game I was town, is NAI.

(I'm going to go back to sleep because I hadn't had enough, talk to you all in a few hours, bye)

nutella, can you explain to me why you don't see a Carotenoid/Mac world?

Use this site.

I'm caught up. I read the posts over dinner and am typing my response post at the computer so I don't have the quotes handy, but:

- proto, you should realize that the Carot notes stuff and the laser beam gifs are NAI. I don't know why you're townreading her based off it when there's plenty of solid evidence that she's scum.

- Epi, you should be re-evaluating your read on me. We do not have many mislynches left (in fact, I think we don't have any mislynches left), so stop your death tunnel on me and re-evaluate. Carot was defending Mac all day because of a couple of interactions he had with Rej on Day 1, which makes no sense since an entire game has occurred between then and now, and those interactions are easily fakeable. Realize that when there are this little townies left, wolves are going to try to defend and fake-clear each other to get nutella to shoot wrongly, because they know that they win if that happens.

I think the team is most likely Carot/Mac with a small chance (5%~, maybe?) of Carot/Proto and I was pocketed by Proto so the wolf team can play both sides. I think Occam's Razor says Carot/Mac is just the answer and it's as simple as that. Epi is clear (even if you ignore the nutella protection because TSP protected nutella, he still has a meta clear from the Hally kill and Rej spewed him town by claiming a protect on him), so the only possibility left is Proto/Mac which is possible in theory but I'll eat my hat if that's the team in reality.

Just woke up. Confirming that I've seen nutella's order to use TSP's plan and will do the coinflip thing.

Catching up after I've had something to eat.

Nice work intentionally omitting the followup to try to make me look scummy. Weird how you never commented on that Epi argument a single time or mentioned how it affected your read on me, but now suddenly it's the argument you pull out when trying to convince proto I'm scum.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:42 am
Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:48 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:01 pm Rej is actually a null read for me, but dunya asked me to read people gun to head so I just blurted out the first word that comes to mind (town or scum) when I think of their name, without thinking too hard about it. Like I said, don't ask me to justify any of those reads.
Just in case anybody is really concerned about that Rej opinion, here's a quick followup (buttressed by an adverb "actually") that essentially tells us that Alison doesn't want anybody to take it seriously.

This isn't trying to figure Rej out. This is "Shit, I have to say something about Rej."
You're correct again. I did, in fact, have to say something about Rej, because Hally questioned me about my GTH read. Rej was in fact a null read for me at the point in time I wrote that post, and I even wrote a post saying that Rej/LC/TSP were players I couldn't get a lock on because my eyes kept glazing over when I looked at their posts. I put Rej as town on my GTH, and Hally went "I don't understand why anyone would townread Rej", so I explained to her my thought process. You're right when you say that I don't want people to take my GTH seriously. I don't, because GTHs are logically unsound, and historically speaking my "intuition" reads have been a lot less correct than my logic-based ones.

Alison wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:38 am
Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:45 pm God, I'm stuck in Thursday afternoon. It's Friday evening here.

Oh well. Time to make the doughnuts.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:56 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:14 pm
Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:04 pm dunya, I mentioned above a bit that I had basically the whole game as null or town. Caro is one of the players I think is suspicious, based on what I raised above about her progression on me. I might have better/firmer scumreads for you after I re-eval but as it stands my PoE is something like [Caro, LC, Rej] or something. Basically just Caro + two people I can't read. Everyone says Rej is scummy but frankly my eyes glaze over so hard when I read the stuff he writes I can't form an independent opinion on him so.
can you take the player list and gun to your head, assign each player as either town or scum?

its a neat exercise where we decide GTH without lots of facts and evidence to back up our reads, what our intuition says.

i love it tbh
This is very far from my usual style but, gun to my head: LC scum, Caro scum, Rej town out of that PoE. For some reason I want to say Dizzy scum even though their mindmeld with me makes me townread them and my feeling towards them is town in general. I don't know why. Everyone else is town probably.

Don't ask me to justify any of this, it's pure guesswork. :P
Qualifier here.

"This is very far from my usual style but"

Note the very and the formula of the phrase. Already it's a hedge.

"Rej town out of that PoE"

I get this is in response to a "GTH" prod, but I don't care. The "Don't ask me to justify any of this, it's pure guesswork. :P" creates a hedge sandwich. These are ideas delivered while begging to escape scrutiny or accountability. I don't think a civilian who has nothing to worry about as long as nutella trusts him or her has any need to give a shit about what anybody else thinks. This looks like shits are given. This looks like a Rej teammate.

I'm posting this. I'll be back with the weather at 11.
You're absolutely correct - I'm hedging and I don't want people to hold me accountable for my GTH reads. Because GTH reads suck. I did it because dunya asked me to, and if it helps her solving style so be it. But the GTH are purely intuition based reads that have 0 connection to any kind of logic or reasoning, so I absolutely don't want people to ask me to justify them, or hold me accountable for them because I don't endorse them. Hold me accountable for my actual reads, but not this free-association stuff. I also wrote LC scum and Dizzy scum in that GTH - both reads I don't currently endorse. If you want to ask me to give a list of reads off the top of my head without engaging in any kind of logical thought or analysis, don't also expect me to stand by them.

Carotenoid wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:36 am proto thought N2 that aliens only have one kill and I believe proto never no kill during N2

it's just Alison/TSP

Why does town Carot here not consider the possibility of Alison/Mac? I have a hard time believing that two interactions with Rej hold that much water for you in an endgame situation.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/22395

Is the mafia with alabaster and horak link, screwed it up in the original post sorry

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:30 am
Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:26 am https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/22356 - mafia with crimson and elijah

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26090 - town

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26090 - mafia with alabaster and horak
Do you think this is gonna show you are town or make you look worse?

no clue. I just pasted the links of last three games I played on MU, and I don't recall the specifics of how they went down because I played some of them as far back as a year ago.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/22356 - mafia with crimson and elijah

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26090 - town

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26090 - mafia with alabaster and horak

How was that hostile? I just said I was asking Tony, because he was the one who gave a take I thought was objectionable.

I was asking Tony, not you...

How do you read the dunya + me + caro interactions before that and think that dunya/Alison is a real possibility

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:57 pm Alison/Dunya makes sense for game state reasons and additionally I scumread them both independently. Their interactions are questionable but I think make sense as paired.

this is pretty yucky

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:46 am From my perspective TSP/Alison is like 90% likely so I don't care which of them you shoot. Carot seems very pro town. Proto is just insanely towny. Like at this point I'd rate Epi as less towny than Carot and Proto and I feel like the only way town really can lose here is if we have cleared Eoi wrongly or some shit.

the fuck do you mean "Carot seems very pro town"

what has carot done for town

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:33 pm carot/??? ? like. even if carot's faking, who's the scum mate in this situation? It just doesn't work out.

Why do you think Carot/Mac is ruled out?

[mention]MacDougall[/mention] ^

protocultures wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:29 am I'd ask Mac to read TSP here but think he's your most likely partner.

Ask him to do it anyway, he's been quiet and making people read their own partner can produce useful associatives (like if their read sounds forced or agenda-y).

I did skim read before I started posting. I checked the crucial stuff (dunya's flip, notification on the night protection plan, which was too late for me to see/adhere to, SoD declaring nobody died) in detail, but everything else was just a brief glance.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:22 am (Alison is simultaneously claiming not to have read a plan while also claiming to have read a plan, both parts of this have two pieces of info for them)

I don't understand what this means?

I don't remember anything about proto protecting nutella solo either

I went back and read this whole "proto challenges TSP's claim" thing and unless proto has scum theater skills beyond the ken of man and an irrational desire to bus his teammate during endgame I think I can strike proto/TSP off the list.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:10 am
Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:09 am I'm just going to consider Epi mechanically cleared for now unless someone claims a save on nutella, since I think any team with Epi in it just shoots nutella owing to the decision to have a protection chain where Epi was her only defender.

If proto is town (which is the most likely scenario), the teams are Carot/TSP, Carot/Mac or Mac/TSP. The Carot thing is most likely to me but I guess we're at the point in the game where I should be tinfoiling Mac/TSP.

@TSP yes I haven't done any catch up yet, they're a pain to do on phone, give me a bit
you literally responded to a post where we were talking about this

I'm sorry? Did you claim a save on nutella and I missed it?

I'm just going to consider Epi mechanically cleared for now unless someone claims a save on nutella, since I think any team with Epi in it just shoots nutella owing to the decision to have a protection chain where Epi was her only defender.

If proto is town (which is the most likely scenario), the teams are Carot/TSP, Carot/Mac or Mac/TSP. The Carot thing is most likely to me but I guess we're at the point in the game where I should be tinfoiling Mac/TSP.

@TSP yes I haven't done any catch up yet, they're a pain to do on phone, give me a bit

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:02 am
Alison wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:01 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:59 am If I'm partners with Mac we shoot Alison. I do everything I can to paint myself w/w with Carot. Mac wins.
If I'm partners with Carot we shoot Alison. I do everything I can to paint myself w/w with Mac. Carot might win but it's a little closer.

Neither of these plans involve anything close to claiming a fake action that does nothing but put arbitrary suspicion on Epi.
If you're partners with Carot and you kill me, Carot is incredibly unlikely to win the endgame because she's basically exposed as scum once I flip.
you jumped into the action incredibly late here.

Yes, because I was away. The SoD happened very early my time and I just woke up. Do you think I am the kind of player that intends to win endgames by slanking and hoping people forget about her?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:01 am alison are you a wolf

No.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:59 am If I'm partners with Mac we shoot Alison. I do everything I can to paint myself w/w with Carot. Mac wins.
If I'm partners with Carot we shoot Alison. I do everything I can to paint myself w/w with Mac. Carot might win but it's a little closer.

Neither of these plans involve anything close to claiming a fake action that does nothing but put arbitrary suspicion on Epi.

If you're partners with Carot and you kill me, Carot is incredibly unlikely to win the endgame because she's basically exposed as scum once I flip.

If you're going to have a protection plan, please announce it before 6am in Singapore, 2 hours before SoD, or I won't be able to follow it. I protected proto last night.

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