Cartomancy [Game Over]

[staypositivefriend]

snipped bc reasons-----

Hey Roxy, have you played with Creature before?

No why does it matter? It doesn't in mafia. Bad posts are, well, bad. It's why we ask questions and expect answers. It is the towns only weapon.

I have played with Kate for years and have no read. You must be psychic or a better player than I.

Highlighted pink text is contradictory.

i don't understand why the pink text is contradictory

[Jackofhearts2005]

Kate still has not done anything after coming back to the game by the way.

This feels gross.

Most of Alison's posts feel gross.

what feels gross about it?

It doesn't feel like hunting. It feels like trying to make a player look bad to other players.

Town do try to make players look bad to other players but it's when they are convinced that player is scum. Like, there have been a lot of times that (regardless of if I'm correct or not) I've felt like I've had a wolf and people won't follow my vote and I'm just screaming into the void. That's a thing townies do.

But just shade on a player like that D1 for not doing enough? Feels like a thing wolves do.

Alison is well known for not being convinced kate and roxy are scum

Rephrase?

I'm saying I don't expect you to make that post as a townie unless you really think Kate is scum and it is part of an effort to yeet your scumread.

You're saying you don't think Kate is scum. That's not contradicting what I'm saying so I feel like one of us is misunderstanding the other in this exchange.

It was sarcastic. I'm saying it should be very clear that I'm convinced Kate and Roxy are scum so you saying "this post only comes from town if Alison thinks Kate and Roxy are scum" is a meaningless read. Roxy even scumread me for how convinced I was that Kate was scum.

Gotcha. Well, I'm gonna be looking at your original reasons for scumreading Kate anyhow because it's relevant to this and SPF is asking about it/went back and found it for me. We'll see if that changes my

[Alison]

i also feel like you're singling out that specific post from alison without seeming to factor her original reason for pushing kate in the first place into your analysis. it feels like incomplete analysis

that was my original reason for pushing kate tbf

[tutuu]

lucy
Bereft
Neon
staypositivefriend
RondoDimBuckle

Alison
DrWilgy
Seanzie
Dennis
MacDougall

falcon45ca
fingersplints
Jackofhearts2005
Kate
Porscha
sig

Baudib1

Creature
Roxy

[Jackofhearts2005]

read on you or nah.

[Creature]

Alright time to catch up



(sadly I couldn't find a better video)

[staypositivefriend]

oh you think it's contradictory because you think kate has made bad posts but roxy has not called out kate for making bad posts in spite of her having a mindset that "bad posts are bad"

which might be a town indicative thought process for you to have but is not a very good thought process to determine roxy's alignment tbh

[Jackofhearts2005]

can ya'll not ninja me when I accidentally click the submit button on my broken touchpad? bleh

[Baudib1]

I wonder if W!Creature, having not played with me in many years, would play like this and call me his top townread in a game full of people who don’t know me. I would think not but then maybe it would be a clever approach to the game. I actually don’t remember what he thinks of me in general so maybe none of this matters much.

Anyway Creature is town.

why? do u have any thoughts on the stuff i posted about him on this page?

I think given his playstyle and his own view of his meta and solving style he would throw in more fake comments to enhance his reads rather than give off-the-cuff reads.

[robyn]

ughhhh why am i being TR so widely

[Alison]

snipped bc reasons-----

Hey Roxy, have you played with Creature before?

No why does it matter? It doesn't in mafia. Bad posts are, well, bad. It's why we ask questions and expect answers. It is the towns only weapon.

I have played with Kate for years and have no read. You must be psychic or a better player than I.

Highlighted pink text is contradictory.

i don't understand why the pink text is contradictory

In post 1 she suggests that knowing a player well shouldn't significantly affect a read on them and they should be judged by the text of their posts; in post 2 she suggests that I should lend credence to her view that Kate is null because she knows Kate well

[DrWilgy]

ughhhh why am i being TR so widely

*You're beautiful*

[robyn]

hardclaiming oracle

[Creature]

(just for fun)

roxy
creature
baudib
kate
sig

I'm pretty much unpaired with all of them except baudib1 who is my top townread.

u unnpaired with roxy?



u a CONJOINED TWIN WITH ROXY boiii

tbh tutuu's insistence on Roxy and me being wolves together is prob towny and feels like tutuu really believes it as opposed to just shitting out a random view to push.

[staypositivefriend]

I wonder if W!Creature, having not played with me in many years, would play like this and call me his top townread in a game full of people who don’t know me. I would think not but then maybe it would be a clever approach to the game. I actually don’t remember what he thinks of me in general so maybe none of this matters much.

Anyway Creature is town.

why? do u have any thoughts on the stuff i posted about him on this page?

I think given his playstyle and his own view of his meta and solving style he would throw in more fake comments to enhance his reads rather than give off-the-cuff reads.

shrug. i don't know creautre's meta that well in general. i just think he has an increased boost in confidence and assertiveness that is slightly more easy for me to model as coming from someone who is playing from the position of TMI than coming from someone who has wildly changed their playstyle and the way they think about the game over the course of exactly one game

you specc'd da bois invitational too, so do you see what i mean? do u think im being unreasonable rn?

[staypositivefriend]

and i think i care less about creature's specific meta tells and more about whether his reads are real

and im not convinced that: "drwilgy has a wolflist with town in it, so he must be mafia" is a thought that town!creature would have with the context of him having posted a 0/3 SOLVE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF DA BOIS GAME

[staypositivefriend]

im not as confident as im projecting rn though im just in a very passionate mood

[Alison]

My mind is open on creature

[Creature]

FTR I agree with almost all of Alison’s posts at least to a certain degree. Pocketing intensifies.

Alison looks better at the Alison v Roxy at least.

[robyn]

hardclaiming oracle

no rescind no fps

[Baudib1]

I wonder if W!Creature, having not played with me in many years, would play like this and call me his top townread in a game full of people who don’t know me. I would think not but then maybe it would be a clever approach to the game. I actually don’t remember what he thinks of me in general so maybe none of this matters much.

Anyway Creature is town.

why? do u have any thoughts on the stuff i posted about him on this page?

I think given his playstyle and his own view of his meta and solving style he would throw in more fake comments to enhance his reads rather than give off-the-cuff reads.

shrug. i don't know creautre's meta that well in general. i just think he has an increased boost in confidence and assertiveness that is slightly more easy for me to model as coming from someone who is playing from the position of TMI than coming from someone who has wildly changed their playstyle and the way they think about the game over the course of exactly one game

you specc'd da bois invitational too, so do you see what i mean? do u think im being unreasonable rn?

I didn’t read much of the early game, mostly because I knew it would be a lot of terrible posts in why you should kill Ladd.

I mean I’ll take your view into account for sure. I think I’m probably as good as anyone D3 and onward but I’m not particularly useful on D1s.

[Alison]

hardclaiming oracle

no rescind no fps

Sounds good

[Creature]

i'm not fully caught up but i'm getting pinged by a lot of the posts from creature that i'm seeing

i just played with him in da bois invitiational where we were T/T, and one thing i noticed about his game is that he was super hedgy and super non-commital and consistently projected a mindset where he was scared about being wrong. some quotes from him on d1 in that game:

I'm giving time for my reads to mature.

I am prob not giving anyone a townread for now until I am fairly sure about it. So don't expect anything from me other than pushing whoever is being wolfy.

I dunno where to go. I suspect spf and ladd the most but I'm also afraid of lynching them and them being town.

neopest I guess is playing her town game? (although I feel like she may have figured it out as wolf and can emulate it)

by contrast, creature is picking up reads in this game much more confidently, and he is pushing on ppl fairly aggressively and seems to have no hesitance about calling them wolfy:

Alright Seanzie looks good page 1

I liked Neon's posts tbh.

I guess the players I actually townread are Baudib1, Neon and Seanzie. Maybe lucy too but need more from her.

Alison
DrWilgy
Kate
RondoDimBuckle
sig
tutuu

should contain wolves

Somebody do something to make me feel something.

I'm listening to Easy to Tame by Kim Mitchell, and got Rich Gurl by Hall & Oates qued up next.



Get hyped.



What's your take on Wilgy?

lol I think DrWilgy had a wolf list that feels like it's 0/3 so he can go

i think the last post in particular isn't really a post that my mental model of creature as town would make. saying "X player has an inaccurate readslist, so he can go" feels like a bizarre amount of confidence from a player who is usually very hedgy and very worried about having an incorrect view of the game

maybe im reading too much into the meta stuff but yeah idk, i just feel like creature might be playing from a position of TMI and that he is forming a worldview too easily compared to what i just saw from him in a game like 2 weeks ago

Ftr I've had games where I picked up reads early. It all depends on whether I engage with tge game earlier or later. In Da Bois I took a long time to get started out and when I came I was pretty suspicious about everything. In this game at least I got to follow the earlier posts. Also I confess some of my reads were just quick takes and prone to change.

[Alison]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

[Creature]

i didnt question all the townreads on baudi i assumed meta but they keep coming and i keep not seeing anything to townread

I might be underestimating baudib1 but they seemed pretty pure in the posts I saw from them.

[Jackofhearts2005]

why do u think that alison's reads are wolf-indicative? i thought that the original post she pointed out from kate was legitimately wolfy, or i could at least understand why someone would take issue with it. do u think the ppl she's pushing (kate/roxy) are town?

I think they sound fake and agenday, incomplete analysis aside.

I don't have a read on them.

Only > rand, not even >> rand. smh

Kate still has not done anything after coming back to the game by the way.

This feels gross.

Most of Alison's posts feel gross.

what feels gross about it?

It doesn't feel like hunting. It feels like trying to make a player look bad to other players.

Town do try to make players look bad to other players but it's when they are convinced that player is scum. Like, there have been a lot of times that (regardless of if I'm correct or not) I've felt like I've had a wolf and people won't follow my vote and I'm just screaming into the void. That's a thing townies do.

But just shade on a player like that D1 for not doing enough? Feels like a thing wolves do.

okay

so then what do you think about alison's original reason for pushing on kate? do you think it looks like alison is talking about kate in a bad faith way?

I agree with SPF that this is a super unexciting game so far. I am just gonna vote the easiest wolf to catch and try to break the game open with associatives.

[VOTE: Kate] aubergine

Also from my limited games with rondo he seems to be playing within his civ meta right now so probably wouldn’t want to vote their today

Just read through once and I for now agree on this. This is almost identical to the way he opened the last game and he was civ. Unless of course, he's doing that to make us think that... anyway nothing about his gameplay pings me thus far.

Lots of pings in this thread for a cold day 1 from many people. I'll have to reread tomorrow for any deeper thoughts.

Explain to me what's obvscum about this post

She agrees with Rondo meta, immediately undermines her own view, then promises a future reread (a reread? Thread was literally 2 pages) that has to happen before she gives any deeper thoughts. It's a waffly nothingburger of a post.

because i can understand why the thought of: "this player isn't doing enough" could be wolfy to say about someone this early into the game, but i also feel like you're singling out that specific post from alison without seeming to factor her original reason for pushing kate in the first place into your analysis. it feels like incomplete analysis

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.
As a former math teacher, >> is an incorrect use of > signs.

Spoiler: show

That I would only use for like wrestler or superhero tier lists.

Kate still has not done anything after coming back to the game by the way.

This feels gross.

Most of Alison's posts feel gross.

what feels gross about it?

It doesn't feel like hunting. It feels like trying to make a player look bad to other players.

Town do try to make players look bad to other players but it's when they are convinced that player is scum. Like, there have been a lot of times that (regardless of if I'm correct or not) I've felt like I've had a wolf and people won't follow my vote and I'm just screaming into the void. That's a thing townies do.

But just shade on a player like that D1 for not doing enough? Feels like a thing wolves do.

okay

so then what do you think about alison's original reason for pushing on kate? do you think it looks like alison is talking about kate in a bad faith way?

I agree with SPF that this is a super unexciting game so far. I am just gonna vote the easiest wolf to catch and try to break the game open with associatives.

[VOTE: Kate] aubergine

Also from my limited games with rondo he seems to be playing within his civ meta right now so probably wouldn’t want to vote their today

Just read through once and I for now agree on this. This is almost identical to the way he opened the last game and he was civ. Unless of course, he's doing that to make us think that... anyway nothing about his gameplay pings me thus far.

Lots of pings in this thread for a cold day 1 from many people. I'll have to reread tomorrow for any deeper thoughts.

Explain to me what's obvscum about this post

She agrees with Rondo meta, immediately undermines her own view, then promises a future reread (a reread? Thread was literally 2 pages) that has to happen before she gives any deeper thoughts. It's a waffly nothingburger of a post.

because i can understand why the thought of: "this player isn't doing enough" could be wolfy to say about someone this early into the game, but i also feel like you're singling out that specific post from alison without seeming to factor her original reason for pushing kate in the first place into your analysis. it feels like incomplete analysis

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.

[staypositivefriend]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

if she agrees with my reads then yes and if she disagrees with my reads then no

[Jackofhearts2005]

uuuuugh I double ctrl ved into my notepad. Oh well. You can at least tell what I'm saying even if it looks boomerish

[Alison]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

[Creature]

I'll prob only be able to do good stuff after D1. I can't function without flips and seeing how wagons work on non-me players. Wagoning me here is detrimental to town.

also this post activates my fight or flight instincts with the way that creature worded it, even tho admittedly sometimes creature just makes post like that as both alignments

Turns out I've been able to do some good stuff D1.

[Alison]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

It ruins wagonomics but I'd rather get a pelt and given lucy isn't an inter then having a 100% town influenced exe choice is more pelt likely than a less-than-100% town influenced exe choice

[Baudib1]

Lucy was hard-vibing PR anyway so that’s fine.

[staypositivefriend]

also @Alison - i think the only point you made against roxy in your exchange that resonated with me is the way that roxy shifted from: "kate's posts are non-alignment indicative" to "one bad post isn't a big deal", because it did feel like roxy was conceding to your view that kate was posting badly a little bit too easily and then reacted poorly when you hammered on that inconsistency

i don't really think the way she got tilted and came at you was alignment indicative though because i believe that she was genuinely angry regardless of her alignment and i don't like to read into emotion like that. i also don't think the point you originally attacked her for (ie: "roxy said bad posts are bad posts but she doesn't scumread kate") was valid either

[Alison]

I'll prob only be able to do good stuff after D1. I can't function without flips and seeing how wagons work on non-me players. Wagoning me here is detrimental to town.

also this post activates my fight or flight instincts with the way that creature worded it, even tho admittedly sometimes creature just makes post like that as both alignments

Turns out I've been able to do some good stuff D1.

Any comments on the confidence boost that SPF remarked on?

[tutuu]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

i dont believe the claim i think shes just wants to not get night killed coz she wants to play and prove herself. "imma tryhard this game"

[staypositivefriend]

i think it would be more beneficial for lucy to have control over the specific wagons (ie: creating a pool that we eliminate from) instead of choosing the elimination directly. this forces the wolves to either bus their partner or powerwolf if a wolf is in the POE and gives more readable spew, whereas if lucy leads on a town today then the wolves can just kill them with no accountability

not sure if that makes sense but that's my recommendation

[Alison]

also @Alison - i think the only point you made against roxy in your exchange that resonated with me is the way that roxy shifted from: "kate's posts are non-alignment indicative" to "one bad post isn't a big deal", because it did feel like roxy was conceding to your view that kate was posting badly a little bit too easily and then reacted poorly when you hammered on that inconsistency

i don't really think the way she got tilted and came at you was alignment indicative though because i believe that she was genuinely angry regardless of her alignment and i don't like to read into emotion like that. i also don't think the point you originally attacked her for (ie: "roxy said bad posts are bad posts but she doesn't scumread kate") was valid either

I never said Roxy is mafia because she was tilted, unless you mean the self vote and ate, which you know I policy as all aligns

Roxy is mafia for having a weird and inconsistent thought process

[Alison]

I think Roxy switches her opinion on how accurate/valuable meta is based on whether or not that meta is convenient for her and I think this is >rand wolf

[Creature]

Kate still has not done anything after coming back to the game by the way.

This feels gross.

Most of Alison's posts feel gross.

what feels gross about it?

It doesn't feel like hunting. It feels like trying to make a player look bad to other players.

Town do try to make players look bad to other players but it's when they are convinced that player is scum. Like, there have been a lot of times that (regardless of if I'm correct or not) I've felt like I've had a wolf and people won't follow my vote and I'm just screaming into the void. That's a thing townies do.

But just shade on a player like that D1 for not doing enough? Feels like a thing wolves do.

tbh Alison's case on Roxy seemed actually good. Roxy got contradictory and feels like they crumbled under pressure.

Kate I don't know much. They still seemed underwhelming.

[Alison]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

i dont believe the claim i think shes just wants to not get night killed coz she wants to play and prove herself. "imma tryhard this game"

To be clear if someone hardclaims a PR, "no rescind no FPS", and then it's false I am policying them into the sun

[Jackofhearts2005]

I am back. I see Porscha and Jack have outed even further.

Yeah. This is very similar to wolf Alison has treated town Jack in the past as a response to me suspecting her.

Kill with fire immediately.

[staypositivefriend]

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.

okay. i dont find promises of future content either, but i do think that specifically saying: "i will need to read this part of the game again' on page 2 of the RVS phase can be indicative of a wolf who feels insecure about not being towny ~enough~ and is trying to cover for it by acting like they're going to post more content later. i noticed myself doing similar stuff when i was wolfing in hydra game 4 so i think it can be a legitimate wolftell with the right context

i think i somewhat agree with you that some of alison's reasons for pushing on ppl are flimsy/could be perceived as bad faith but i also dont particularly think this is alignment indicative for alison

[Jackofhearts2005]

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.

okay. i dont find promises of future content either, but i do think that specifically saying: "i will need to read this part of the game again' on page 2 of the RVS phase can be indicative of a wolf who feels insecure about not being towny ~enough~ and is trying to cover for it by acting like they're going to post more content later. i noticed myself doing similar stuff when i was wolfing in hydra game 4 so i think it can be a legitimate wolftell with the right context

i think i somewhat agree with you that some of alison's reasons for pushing on ppl are flimsy/could be perceived as bad faith but i also dont particularly think this is alignment indicative for alison

So you're saying Alison is bad at catching wolves when she's town?

[robyn]

Justice - Justice, Fairness, Truth, Cause and Effect, Law. If the player who holds this card is night killed, they may choose to take another player of their choice down with them. If the player who holds this card is eliminated by poll, they may choose to take one of their voters down with them.

this is the only way i die, so i think spf's option is generally optimal

1) lucy is not an inter
2) fakeclaiming oracle as town/mafia is inting here
3) ergo i am oracle

[tutuu]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

i dont believe the claim i think shes just wants to not get night killed coz she wants to play and prove herself. "imma tryhard this game"

To be clear if someone hardclaims a PR, "no rescind no FPS", and then it's false I am policying them into the sun

she represented disappointment at being so widely townread - if shes the oracle shes immune to night kill. so she can keep quiet and block a mafia nk

i dont think its an fps in a situation where shes a de facto IC already - apart from her supposed personal gains of surviving, it could also make the mafia kill somewhere else and maybe hit the oracle so we gain this one kill stop

i dunno, i could be wrong, she could be the real oracle. i dont mind either way whether or not shes telling the truth. i also dont know if she fpses or not. also i townread her in all scenarios. i just dont believe her claim, but its cool, im chilling, her claim doesnt change anything for me. imma keep voting for my own scumreads though

[Creature]

and i think i care less about creature's specific meta tells and more about whether his reads are real

and im not convinced that: "drwilgy has a wolflist with town in it, so he must be mafia" is a thought that town!creature would have with the context of him having posted a 0/3 SOLVE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF DA BOIS GAME

Once again this is nowhere a lock for DrWilgy. I think a 0/3 list is usually >rand wolf indicative especially when I see DrWilgy as a player with good reads as town and heavily wolfsiding as wolf.

aorn though I'm no longer wolfleaning DrWilgy.

[staypositivefriend]

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.

okay. i dont find promises of future content either, but i do think that specifically saying: "i will need to read this part of the game again' on page 2 of the RVS phase can be indicative of a wolf who feels insecure about not being towny ~enough~ and is trying to cover for it by acting like they're going to post more content later. i noticed myself doing similar stuff when i was wolfing in hydra game 4 so i think it can be a legitimate wolftell with the right context

i think i somewhat agree with you that some of alison's reasons for pushing on ppl are flimsy/could be perceived as bad faith but i also dont particularly think this is alignment indicative for alison

So you're saying Alison is bad at catching wolves when she's town?

not bad at catching wolves, but projects confidence/assertiveness to a level that is easy to read as wolf-indicative when it's actually just Alison

[staypositivefriend]

and i think i care less about creature's specific meta tells and more about whether his reads are real

and im not convinced that: "drwilgy has a wolflist with town in it, so he must be mafia" is a thought that town!creature would have with the context of him having posted a 0/3 SOLVE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF DA BOIS GAME

Once again this is nowhere a lock for DrWilgy. I think a 0/3 list is usually >rand wolf indicative especially when I see DrWilgy as a player with good reads as town and heavily wolfsiding as wolf.

aorn though I'm no longer wolfleaning DrWilgy.

what changed your mind about wilgy?

[robyn]

i tried to play this cycle intentionally scummy thus far, being widely townread is weird and there are a few possible reasons for it

[Creature]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

I dunno. I feel like we should let wagons happen naturally for wagonomics.