Grimm's Fairy Tale Mafia - Day 13

[bea]

Is the Elf a civvie? I just looked at the roles, and it has not been updated to show that. So RIPIYWG Finian.

playing catsup so IDK if this has been adressed or not - but yes. Elf was a civ.

[Prisoner 509378]

Ok, here goes. I'll try to keep it concise, which as most of you know isn't something I excel at.

First off, I'll reiterate about Queran's voting record. 4 votes for confirmed civs, and the vote for me which makes 5. Only Carmen has voted 5 confirmed civs, and only Queran, Bac, and Bronwyn have voted 4 confirmeds.

Now, back to Day 1. It seems a common misconception that I was saying Caillic voters were bad because they were saving Jorhan. I was actually very careful about NOT saying that. I was saying there were likely baddie votes among Caillic voters because of the high proportion of votes that came in for him at the end of the Day 1 lynch. I mentioned 3 players that day because they were the 3 of the last 6 total votes that went to Caillic. Those were Carmen, Bronwyn, and Queran.

Carmen had listed her reason for voting Caillic as trusting Shand, and thinking Jorhan was good because he had received an illegal vote. I didn't understand either of these things at the time (nor, do I believe, that I ever got an explanation from Carmen when I asked). In hindsight, I probably should have been giving Carmen a closer look from Day 2, but she escaped my notice in the hullabaloo that ensued.

Bronwyn's vote for Caillic was partly following Queran's lead. He pointed out that Caillic had voted Ameerah while simultaneously hoping she was not lynched. She also said she was pinged that Caillic had not defended himself after receiving his first vote from Shand, a point I was originally confused about due to unclear antecedents. Her response was more or less "I am not connected to Queran and am not bad." Which to me seemed reasonable, so I let it go.

Queran had not given a reason for his vote until asked (which, as he pointed out, was very shortly after he voted). That pinged me and still does, and Queran seems experienced and should know that reasons traditionally go with vote posts. That coupled with the number of late votes for Caillic made me suspect him most highly of the three. Queran's response to my post was more or less similar to Bronwyn's, aside from some name-calling, which I think we can all agree was a bit rude. I was more or less prepared to let this suspicion go as well, until this rather lengthy post. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=19774#p19774 It points out my aforementioned antecedent confusion and accuses me of "No U-ing" Queran, which is ridiculous. He did mention me in passing on Night 1, and I didn't bother responding. Why? It was a Night 1 ping, which is certainly not unusual in mafia, and it just didn't bother me. I believe this "Who mentioned who first?" is a major point in Queran's recent case against me. Yes, he did mention me first, but if we're looking for the panic of a cornered baddie I think it's clear that he is the one displaying it, not me. It bears noting that Queran dropped a vote for me on Day 2 long after my vote for him, and after it was clear that Jorhan was going down.

By the way, I believe in his case that Queran mentioned he thinks I was buddying up to Bac before his untimely demise. Here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=19818#p19818, around the time of his large response, he accuses Bac of buddying up to me, and here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=19818#p19818 (as well as in a number of other posts around the same time) he goes after Bac fairly hard and insinuates that Bac has bad intentions, mainly because Bac asked him to use more everyday language. Just another example of overreaction on Day 2.

Since then my primary ping on him is unhelpfulness. Yes, as he mentioned, he did make the big post listing suspicions on Day 3. Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=20104#p20104. It lists Ameerah, whom he does like, and Mainchin and Carmen, whom he does not. My point with that, though, was that it came to late to influence the vote on a day we really needed all hands on deck. Making a large post when it's clear who will die also gives pretty easy outs, and sets up for being able to build a case on anyone you mentioned the next day when the lynch results are out. Other than that, most of his posts (and since there are a lot, you'll either have to read back through them or trust me) from Day 3 on are either back-and-forth with me or throwing out the names Dierdre, Eurolyvn, and Laine, as well as the now deceased Etain and Finnian. My theory is he's trying to see if something sticks. Oh, and he theorized that we would have 2 days in a row, which ended up happening. So either good guess there or good info, I'm not sure which.

That's my case. I think his Day 2 posts are the most useful of what I have, besides his voting record. I guess you'll have to decide for yourselves who is telling the truth. If you want me to respond to anything let me know.

It seems Queran wants to win this little battle between us. If he does, at least please lynch him after me. I would be really depressed if he went for so long being so obviously evil and won.

[Prisoner 509378]

PS- How do people do that cool thing where they make the links read as other words? Like, some people can make the word "Here" be a link, for example. That would save space, and look way cooler.

[Julinook]

About the only nice thing I can say about Carmen is that she has nice wings.

Now wait, I seem to recall you saying that my fun-loving spirit and lightheartedness does me credit. I should have come out with that from the beginning. I was just afraid of Rumple and saying too much.

What exactly do you have against me? Yeah, I survived a lynch. Obviously Rumple was trying to cause confusion and was successful. What else?

Linki with Miyaki: I was quite confused about the whole role hinting thing at first. I didn't have a clue what Bac was talking about. I didn't get it until later when someone else clarified (don't remember who). I thought it was hilarious that you all read into it so much, sorry it was. I was sooo so busy at the time when I finally understood, however, and did not refute it. I apologize. I just thought it was too hilarious. But, even if I did say, "Hey, no role hinting is going on here" I bet you all would just have said.. "See! She's BAD!" Once under suspicion, it doesn't matter what you do, it is CRAZY difficult to redeem yourself.

Carmen, what you say here could be straight up truth, but in my experience in past games, when I've been suspected as bad, but I'm actually a townie, I frankly breathe a sigh of relief when someone steps forward and says something in one of my posts gives them pause. If something is brought up that saves me from the lynch, I'm just relieved, whether my post was intended in the way it gets interpreted or not. If I'm bad, and someone defends me or saves me, I'm also relieved but I do find it funny. I just don't know what to make of you.

linkitis- Shand, I was just going there, but since you already did-

First, I haven't been replaced. I was tired of playing a scared little civvie - afraid and walking on egg shells so I don't say the rumple word. After all the Rumple talk in the beginning, I began the game very timidly and didn't say much. After a while, I wanted to just be more light-hearted and have fun.

So, if you're civvie, you're relieved and if you're bad, you're relieved. However, you are only allowed to find it funny that players read too much into things if you are one but not the other?

The glass slipper being "the right fit" I thought was clever. Voting for Rune, maybe a message will be revealed - I didn't know what rune was before that poll. I looked up the definition and wrote my post based on learning of its meaning. And, Cinderella is my favorite story, for real, with spin-offs such as Ever After and Ella Enchanted. As a relatively new player, I can only imagine that role-hinting would not be allowed and so I wouldn't intentionally do it. I am a follow-the-rules kind of gal. I was crazy busy for the second and third week in May (doctor's appointments, work, and field trips). I didn't get on much, just made sure I had my votes in. I really wasn't aware of the supposed role hinting until after the second instance. By then, not many players were talking about it anymore and I had been kind of cleared of earlier suspicions. I was relieved, so I kept quiet about it. Then the favorite story thing came up. I could have lied and picked a different story, but I am a truthful person, so I posted Cinderella to be my favorite.

[Golf]

Thank you for that, Gobnait. Your effort enriches us all. At this point, you both make very convincing and sincere cases to the point that I'm inclined to vote for neither of you and seek baddies elsewhere, because a wrong choice between the two of you would result in the loss of a very valuable civ.

[Roxy]

Make linkys like this- ofc without the spaces.

[ url= linky address here] cool linky word here [ /url]

So it comes out like this - reply here

[Saito]

Gobnait and Queran, your positions were both well reasoned but I need more time than I've got left during this bright time to think through each one. Gobnait, I don't see your point about Queran's tallies for civvs 4 or 5 times as all that relevant because of two things: one, not counting the dead people there are 9 people who have not casted their choice one or more times. Were they avoiding casting their choice because they did not want to give themselves away or for some other reason? I don't know but I'm suspicious. Also, there are people we just don't know about yet that could be good or bad that people have casted choices for. Either of these things could lead to many more people who could have casted choices for civvs 4 or 5 times. Aside from this point though I found your arguments compelling.

I agree with Fane though this round. I'm not sure about either one of you at the moment, could be both abominables, both admirables, or one of each. I have to vote today in just a bit and I think -unless something I hadn't anticipated comes up in the next little while - I'm going with my long held distrust of Carmen. Queran and Gobnait, your positions are much appreciated and could well be a factor in my next choice of an abominable.

[Young Lady]

I'd be more convinced you were genuine and not trying to bamboozle us if those links were not to the same post, which they are.

[Young Lady]

EBWOP: The "Bac Attac" (I just thought of that.) links are to the same post. Which I will address right now. To insinuate I went after him aggressively is a bit silly and overblown, though I guess when you ask Gobnait the Gorgeous for a case, you are going to end up with some silliness.

You seem awful defesive of ol' Gobby recently Bac.. Are you sure you're not redirecting a tad yourself?

My Good Kracken, no. I have not defended him once. I said that, like you, my thoughts on Gobnait depend on how Jorhan flips. That would make a weak defense, and indeed, could also be applied to yourself as well as Gobnait.

His theories, like yours, need further development based on how they play out. I am not sure what I would be redirecting from; as soon as the last lynch ended, I said I suspected Jorhan, I enumerated why, and that is the person who received my ballot. I have been the epitome of consistency. And my suspicions after this day will be built on today; one day at a time, as information is revealed.

So I am not sold on Gobnait (or yourself) being naughty or nice.

Fair play. Though I'm just intrigued at your recent aggressiveness after I hinted at having you under my microscope a bit more. When I say "defensive" I mean that aggressiveness, plus your initial evasion of my post, etc. I might have sounded a bit confusing there.

I am fairly small, so putting me under a microscope is rather an everyday occurence for me, it is the best way to see my many expressive expressions, so I have no fear of that.

You simply appeared to possibly be setting up a distraction to me, so I pointed that out. Sorry if that came across as rude, my first post on the subject was somewhat snide. Or perhaps pushiness is overcompensation for my size, it is not the first time I have been told this. When one is a tiny pixie in a room full of large powerful Trolls, Krackens etc., one must do what one must in order to be heard and to be held to be of Account in such a gathering.

I am not Rajah for nothing.

Crosspost: And you are reaching again. It is saying that even if he comes up civ, that clears no one, since I think there are possibly 2 naughty groups. Which I have been trying to remind folks about since the number discrepancy was first noted.

Fair's Fair. I've heard worse snide/etc so no worries. As for me reaching, I'm just saying in the past I have seen people (baddies mostly) say stuff like "FYI even if Joe flips civvie, that doesn't clear John" when their case for John is connected to the suspicion of Joe, for example. Not sure if that is in fact the case here, just pointing out the precedent.

I was far less than aggressive in my questioning Bac. Interesting you didn't quote that, Gob.

As for voting record, you voted for the same civ 3 times in a row. So you know, glass houses and all.

Making a large post when it's clear who will die also gives pretty easy outs, and sets up for being able to build a case on anyone you mentioned the next day when the lynch results are out. Other than that, most of his posts (and since there are a lot, you'll either have to read back through them or trust me) from Day 3 on are either back-and-forth with me or throwing out the names Dierdre, Eurolyvn, and Laine, as well as the now deceased Etain and Finnian. My theory is he's trying to see if something sticks. Oh, and he theorized that we would have 2 days in a row, which ended up happening. So either good guess there or good info, I'm not sure which.

We're back to this again :P

Gobby continues to ignore the fact that I was unavailable for most of that time (see my case re: refusal to acknowledge any view that doesn't fit her own), and when I came back I did as she asked. And she suspects me for it? As for "sets up for being able to build a case on anyone you mentioned the next day." I do believe building cases on suspects is the point of the game. As for throwing names out, Those are called suspects, theories, discussion. I didn't just toss out names, I participated in discussion that just about everyone seemed to be keen to.

And the two days in a row thing was based on the host post a while back, wherein it says "day looked like it would last a while" or something to that effect. Yes, I guessed.

[Prisoner 509378]

I'd be more convinced you were genuine and not trying to bamboozle us if those links were not to the same post, which they are.

Hah! Be honest, no you wouldn't.

There are actually 4 or 5 posts of you getting on Bac's case. Here is where he accuses Bac of "faulty logic and no uing and deviousness". Keep in mind, this is right after Bac said your Day 2 post about me was suspiciously long and quote-riddled. Here it's "your recent aggressiveness after I hinted at having you under my microscope a bit more" and Bac's supposed evasiveness regarding me. Here Bac is "base covering". After that there's a back-off post here, ostensively because no one else has mentioned Bac this entire time.

The next day you can't decide whether Bac is good or not.

Then yesterday he suddenly is good, and I'm "buddying up'" to him, instead of the other way around. Here and here.

Are the links right, there?

Linki: You seem to have beaten me to this. Really, "less than aggressive"?

[Prisoner 509378]

And thanks for the tip, Rox! That was pretty awesome.

[Saito]

I am going to have to go ahead and make my choice because i am not sure when I'll be back today. I don't think it's any surprise I'm choosing Carmen. As I've stated before, her comment noticing that Fane chose the wrong person just sticks in my side like a thorn. I was filling in a spreadsheet and didn't even notice because I was too busy trying to make sure I knew who I had to chose among.

I also think that first set of choices Rumpel did rescue Carmen by moving choices to someone else and then when the Finnian distrust arose the choices were changed on the next set of choices to frame Finnian. In short, I think the first one was real and the second was a frame-up so that people would look at it and do just what they are doing now - saying since Finnian was not abominable then Carmen probably isn't either. I'm convinced this was a well done distraction away from Carmen.

Finally, Carmen denies all hints that people think she was giving. That takes away the slight pause I had when I did not choose her and chose Finnian instead.

*Chooses Carmen*

[Golf]

I was rereading Rhinfrew, the wise Djinn, and noticed that he is about the only one defending Carmen. What does this tell us about him?

1. If Carmen is bad and he is also bad, this would out him. Diagnosis: improbable
2. If Carmen is bad and he is good, it could be an honest mistake. Diagnosis: Likely
3. If Carmen is good and he is bad, it could be a way for him to gain credibility. Diagnosis: Likely
4. If Carmen is good and he is good, it could be either a good read or he could have inside info. Diagnosis: Moderately likely.

From this, I think that if Carmen flips bad, it is probable that Rhinfrew is good, since it would be very reckless of him to vocally defend someone who is obviously about to be lynched if he were on her team. I have been somewhat skeptical of the Noble Genie due to his irreverent tone, but I think the results of today's lynch will be telling.

[Young Lady]

I'd be more convinced you were genuine and not trying to bamboozle us if those links were not to the same post, which they are.

Hah! Be honest, no you wouldn't.

There are actually 4 or 5 posts of you getting on Bac's case. Here is where he accuses Bac of "faulty logic and no uing and deviousness". Keep in mind, this is right after Bac said your Day 2 post about me was suspiciously long and quote-riddled. Here it's "your recent aggressiveness after I hinted at having you under my microscope a bit more" and Bac's supposed evasiveness regarding me. Here Bac is "base covering". After that there's a back-off post here, ostensively because no one else has mentioned Bac this entire time.

The next day you can't decide whether Bac is good or not.

Then yesterday he suddenly is good, and I'm "buddying up'" to him, instead of the other way around. Here and here.

Are the links right, there?

Linki: You seem to have beaten me to this. Really, "less than aggressive"?

There are tales told to the children of the Moonlit Tropics Krackens of a great, fearsome, stoney beast with a distorted sense of truth, that will eat them in their sleep if they do not do their chores and pay homage to Don Cheadle-Kracken.

The first post you quoted, the "faulty logic, no-uing, and deviousness" was in reference to you, as is obvious, because we're talking about my big post, which is directed at you.

The second post you quoted, I'm explaining to Bac that the post he made here read to me as being a little aggressive and slanted in your (Gobnait) favor.

The third post, he does the whole "If Jorhan is good, whatever it doesn't matter case-wise, but if he's bad then it strengthens my cases" thing, which as I've explained I'm not a fan of, so of course I pointed it out.

Fourth quote: I'm explaining, not backing off :P


As for the last two quotes, If you read back and look at all the times you've said something along the lines of "Wow Bac I agree" vs. the times Bac's said "Wow Gobnait I agree", it is clear who is buddying to who.
---

Your misuse of the first quote is once again another point against you and your knack for making cases that fit your agenda despite the facts.

[Spooky Ghost]

Well, I'll admit it, a thoughtful reply from Gob has also left me pondering.

I will say though, that I agree with Bronwyn about you using voting records as proof. That's a slippery slope. I've missed several of the sunny polls myself... so it starts to get hairy.

Also, I found it interesting that you (on the one hand) are including Bac in the group of 3 "suspicious" Caillic voters (that includes Queran)... but then on the other hand you are using Queran's "aggressive" posts towards Bac as somewhat a defense of your position about Queran being un-good. So it's hard for me to see if you're thinking Bac is townie or foe, and it almost seems that you are using Bac in your argument as both - if that makes sense. Could you clarify that a bit more, please?



If these things get sorted well enough in my mind I may not vote for Carmen. If they don't, however, that's likely where my vote will go.


Linki...

[Spooky Ghost]

I was rereading Rhinfrew, the wise Djinn, and noticed that he is about the only one defending Carmen. What does this tell us about him?

1. If Carmen is bad and he is also bad, this would out him. Diagnosis: improbable
2. If Carmen is bad and he is good, it could be an honest mistake. Diagnosis: Likely
3. If Carmen is good and he is bad, it could be a way for him to gain credibility. Diagnosis: Likely
4. If Carmen is good and he is good, it could be either a good read or he could have inside info. Diagnosis: Moderately likely.

From this, I think that if Carmen flips bad, it is probable that Rhinfrew is good, since it would be very reckless of him to vocally defend someone who is obviously about to be lynched if he were on her team. I have been somewhat skeptical of the Noble Genie due to his irreverent tone, but I think the results of today's lynch will be telling.

That seems a reasonable list of possibilities, and logical.

[Kent Brockman]

Thank you for that, Gobnait. Your effort enriches us all. At this point, you both make very convincing and sincere cases to the point that I'm inclined to vote for neither of you and seek baddies elsewhere, because a wrong choice between the two of you would result in the loss of a very valuable civ.

I disagree with your inclination.

In their feud I believe we will touch the bottom of this swamp.

[Prisoner 509378]

Izett, Bac was never included in my group of suspicious Caillic voters. He never voted Caillic. That group was Queran, Bronwyn, and Carmen. I believe Bac to have been civ, if that helps you any.

Queran, you're right about that first quote being directed at me and not Bac. My apologies. Unclear antecedents again. I still maintain that you went after Bac, and then changed your opinion rather quickly when no one followed you.

I'm glad baby krakens are scared of me. They should be, because they're evil and I try to kill evil things. Not much success yet, though.

[Young Lady]

Well, you're wrong, but I guess you're entitled to your opinions as long as you don't intentionally misuse quotes to support that opinion. :P

[Young Lady]

As for my Ginormous post being suspect.. Tough Tentacles bro, If I see faulty logic and no uing and deviousness, I'm gonna point it out. Bolding etc was used to make things easier to see and read, if that bugs you, Tough Tentacles :P

What about that was unclear?

[NurseWilgy]

Thanks for the cases, Queran and Gobnait. I think both of you make some very good points against the other. However, I'm not sure I want to vote one way or the other for this current lynch. I'd prefer to give it a bit more time to sink in. So while I am not dismissing both of your cases, I don't think I'm going to be quite ready to pass judgement on either of them today. For today's vote I'm leaning toward Carmen. The role-hinting, backing off of it, and then claiming it was a joke and that we shouldn't take her so seriously with that bothers me a lot. So for today, I think my vote will be going to her unless something else comes up.

[Gunther]

Well, you're wrong, but I guess you're entitled to your opinions as long as you don't intentionally misuse quotes to support that opinion. :P

I don't think he did intentionally misuse quotes, and I don't think you sying he did makes it so, , I think saying it like this is trying to intentionally mislead us into thinking he did.

[Young Lady]

Anchorete, this is the second time Gob has used a faulty conclusion based on an incorrect quote to implicate me.

Once is a mistake, twice is a pattern.

[Young Lady]

By the way "What about this was unclear" was a genuine question.

[Operator]

The Gobnait-Queran cases, while fraught with eloquence and wisdom, aren't conclusive enough for me to base a vote on. I have to vote now, however, since I won't be around when the poll closes. I choose Carmen. I realize her's is not a very enviable position to be in. People have posted their suspicions against her, and she has responded the best she could. But the sequence of events is such that nothing she could have said would have changed my mind anyway. The lynch divert, role hinting, duping the town into continuing to believe the role hints, and when a townie was lynched, saying that they weren't role hints is too much to ignore.

[Gunther]

I am going to have to reread both of you later, and try to ignore tone, I guess. Gob sounds calm, rattional and level headed, you sound hectoring and somewhat sarcastic to my ear, and perhaps that is coloring my reading of what you are saying, Queran.

[Young Lady]

Well on that Anchorete I guess we'll agree to disagree :P

[Kent Brockman]

I too must read back through the back and forth. My vote will likely be going to either Queran or Gobnait.

[Jack Shephard]

The Gobshite/ Queeran case is indeed intriguing. I still not sure either have a solid case as such. My fear is it is a civ/ civ squabble so i don't really want to lynch either.

[Jack Shephard]

EBWOP Gobnait/ Queran

[Young Lady]

Gobshite?

[Young Lady]

linki - Beat to the punch

[Spooky Ghost]

Izett, Bac was never included in my group of suspicious Caillic voters. He never voted Caillic. That group was Queran, Bronwyn, and Carmen. I believe Bac to have been civ, if that helps you any.

Ok, maybe not the group of suspicious Caillic voters, but you did include Bac in a group of "only civ voters" that you included Queran in (implying that Queran and Bac had the same voting record, while saying THAT voting record makes Queran bad, yet the same voting record on Bac and you just said you think Bac was civ)... then you make it a point to mention that Queran was making a little "case" or having a go (just words, take the idea from them, but don't take them literally) at Bac as further proof that Queran is bad. I don't know, it all just doesn't quite jibe for me somehow...

First off, I'll reiterate about Queran's voting record. 4 votes for confirmed civs, and the vote for me which makes 5. Only Carmen has voted 5 confirmed civs, and only Queran, Bac, and Bronwyn have voted 4 confirmeds.



By the way, I believe in his case that Queran mentioned he thinks I was buddying up to Bac before his untimely demise. Here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=19818#p19818, around the time of his large response, he accuses Bac of buddying up to me, and here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=19818#p19818 (as well as in a number of other posts around the same time) he goes after Bac fairly hard and insinuates that Bac has bad intentions, mainly because Bac asked him to use more everyday language. Just another example of overreaction on Day 2.

Linki and such.

[Jack Shephard]

Gobshite?

Yes. I have been calling him that in my head for ages and it slipped out while typing.

[Sockys2023]

Ok, I realized have been absent, but I am currently caught up. I, for one, do not believe Carmen is good. I did back off and voted Fane one round for two reasons. First because if she was role hinting, I wanted to wait and see if anyone jumped in and said, LIAR! Thereby making it obvious she was bad. No one did, however. Now Carmen is saying she never role hinted in the first place, which was what I believed to be the case when I first read the hints. I think when everyone backed off her because she seemed like she might be saying she was Cinderella, she just rolled with it because it bought her a break from the suspicions. I don't think she meant to role hint, but she definitely didn't deny it until now. That is quite telling if you ask me. I believe a Civ would have corrected everyone much sooner. The second reason I voted Fane was because I believed her actions with him in the Day 1 vote seemed like distancing. I thought they might be connected BTS. However, I feel less certain of this right now, given his latest posts about her. Regardless of Fane, I don't believe Carmen to be working for the side of the Goodys and as such, my vote will be going there.

Additionally, I voted character and my favorite character has always been Sleeping Beauty. I have no idea why, it just always has been.

*votes Carmen *

[Young Lady]

I'd feel like a tool if I didn't vote for Gob, so I will do that. I will also offer my thoughts on Carmen however:

My failed theory that she was a baddie connected to Mainchin did not pan out, and her role hinting had given me pause in terms of voting her in the past, however she denies having role hinted, so that scratches that.

Whether she was saved or not is irrelevant in my opinion, Rumplestiltskin and Friends could have chosen to save a civvie just as easily as they might have saved one of their own, as evident by the Finnian lynches. I feel like I'm having difficulty putting what I think about this down in words, but what I'm trying to say is that Given the scope of Rumple's power, and the results of the Finnian lynches, it's not possible to determine legitimate saves vs. confusion causing saves.

HOWEVER: That being said, the way Carmen has been posting recently has set off more than a few bells in my brain. The tone/content of the posts reads almost as a sort of ingenuine "Oh my gosh I had noooo IDEA you guys thought I was hinting that is SOOOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY!"

So in summary, I can see the suspicion of Carmen, as Carmen a few days ago sounds completely different than Carmen does right now, but I made a big post and a big case on Gobnait and would be foolish not to put my money where my mouth is.

[Spooky Ghost]

Something that is making me feel a little jumpy about Carmen atm is the sheer number of people who are jumping in and agreeing. I fear there are far more ungoods left in the game than goods, so a nearly unanimous lynch of Carmen doesn't necessarily sit well with me either.

[Young Lady]

Following that logic, I assume you think a split vote would be better?

[Golf]

I sympathize with Izett's concerns of a bandwagon, but given the nature of Rumpy's power I think splitting the vote basically lets him control every lynch.

I am voting for Carmen based on her inconsistency, shiftiness, backtracking, retreading and being protected so much.

[Jack Shephard]

I think a vote for Carmen makes most sense right now. If she turns up civvie though I will be most depressed.

[Prisoner 509378]

Izett, Bac was never included in my group of suspicious Caillic voters. He never voted Caillic. That group was Queran, Bronwyn, and Carmen. I believe Bac to have been civ, if that helps you any.

Ok, maybe not the group of suspicious Caillic voters, but you did include Bac in a group of "only civ voters" that you included Queran in (implying that Queran and Bac had the same voting record, while saying THAT voting record makes Queran bad, yet the same voting record on Bac and you just said you think Bac was civ)... then you make it a point to mention that Queran was making a little "case" or having a go (just words, take the idea from them, but don't take them literally) at Bac as further proof that Queran is bad. I don't know, it all just doesn't quite jibe for me somehow...

First off, I'll reiterate about Queran's voting record. 4 votes for confirmed civs, and the vote for me which makes 5. Only Carmen has voted 5 confirmed civs, and only Queran, Bac, and Bronwyn have voted 4 confirmeds.



By the way, I believe in his case that Queran mentioned he thinks I was buddying up to Bac before his untimely demise. Here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=19818#p19818, around the time of his large response, he accuses Bac of buddying up to me, and here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=148&p=19818#p19818 (as well as in a number of other posts around the same time) he goes after Bac fairly hard and insinuates that Bac has bad intentions, mainly because Bac asked him to use more everyday language. Just another example of overreaction on Day 2.

Linki and such.

Izett, your point is a good one, but you're forgetting to mention that Bac was Japanified, survived an NK, brought us info about the secret baddie team, and then was NKed. I think that evidence trumps his vote record. Otherwise I'd likely be counting him as bad.

Dallon, how rude of you!

I'm going to vote Carmen. I never liked her role hints in the first place, even though I'm not sure what to make of them now. I was nervous about her after the Finnian fiasco, since so many of us were so sure about both of them, but going back and looking at her Day 1 behavior while writing my Queran post made me think she's likely up to no good. I still think Queran would be even better, but I understand why people won't vote him today. It's clear he won't be lynched and I don't want to throw my vote away. It would be a miracle if Rumpelstiltskin doesn't control it, as much as I've posted today, but I also hope this vote will make the lynch more unanimous to avoid Rumpelstiltskin's influence.

[NurseWilgy]

I'm going to go ahead and vote for Carmen now. I don't see much sense in continuing to wait anymore.

[Snapshot]

I apologize for not being around much today, I've had a busy week until today. I've had Carmen on my list since forever, so I'm fine with voting her way.

votes Carmen

[Julinook]

I'm going to vote for Queran. I think he and Gobnait may both be bad. I'm sorry you all think I'm bad, but it's been fun.

[Young Lady]

That vote doesn't make any sense, if Carmen was trying to save herself (if she was bad) wouldn't it make more sense for her to put a vote on someone who already has one (i.e Gobnait?) This is the sort of thing that is making it very hard for me to pin down what you're playing at Carmen. You're really all over the place recently.

[Perd Hapley]

That vote doesn't make any sense, if Carmen was trying to save herself (if she was bad) wouldn't it make more sense for her to put a vote on someone who already has one (i.e Gobnait?) This is the sort of thing that is making it very hard for me to pin down what you're playing at Carmen. You're really all over the place recently.

Maybe she's a civ and she just thinks you are bad, and she realizes she can't save herself at this point.

[Perd Hapley]

Well I haven't been playing long enough to be as sure as most of you seem. However, I will say that it sure seems odd how easy it appears to be to lynch Carmen, almost with no opposition. I'm going to just vote my gut since that's about all I have to go on here.

I'm going to vote Queran. She/he was still in here when I posted my last post and I waited quite a while to see if she'd (he'd) say anything in response, while still in here for a while, no response. I have a bad gut feeling about voting Carmen, I don't know why exactly, just do. So I'm not gonna.

[Ned Flanders]

Both Rhinfrew and Grutfud have trust for Carmen, as I posted about last night, but in a jokey way. Still, this gives me pause. One of them may know what he is speaking of, and the other may be seeing a logical reason for innocence. But the case against her is not going away, and if Carmen is part of a civvie pair, then perhaps a rezz can be won at some point. votes Carmen

[Phoebe Buffay]

Well, I have been suspicious of Carmen for days, but like others have pointed out, the sheer number of people voting her is a little worrisome. If she had teammates would there have been more defense of her by now?

I have to remind myself that she was up for a lynch with more than enough votes once already and survived while a civvie took a hit in her place (Bac), then the next lynch craftilly got shifted away from her in favor of another (Finnian) but resulted in the death of another civvie (Mainchin). Followed by another day of talking about Carmen but subsequently voting another civvie (again Finnian) leading to his demise.

So while a lot of votes for her makes me nervous, maybe her teammates have decided she can't be saved today so they're just voting for her to blend in?

Gonna stick with my primary suspicion and *Vote Carmen* again and hope we aren't being bamboozled.

[Kent Brockman]

All right. I've made up my mind. Gobnait has worded some things in ways that twist their meaning, and that offends me. For example:

First off, I'll reiterate about Queran's voting record. 4 votes for confirmed civs, and the vote for me which makes 5. Only Carmen has voted 5 confirmed civs, and only Queran, Bac, and Bronwyn have voted 4 confirmeds.

Five confirmed civilians? Carmen voted for three confirmed civilians. Wording like that bothers me. You should be ashamed and should have put an asterisk after that claim with the fine print at the bottom of your post.

I am voting for Gobnait. I still have my doubts about Queran.