Day 12 ~ 2015 Game of Champions

[Black Rock]

Ok, I have basically caught up.A quick answer to Juliets and HB.

I did not respond to LoRabs responses to her suspicion because I saw no point. She took her time, made her excuses, and as far as I am concerned, carefully crafted her response so it was 'just perfect'. The fact that she was under suspicion because of her wording means she was careful to try and debunk that theory. LoRab is not a player to be underestimated. She is smart. She is crafty. She is a damn good mafia player. She is also one that is hard for the masses to suspect because of that. Mostly I am running on gut. If I were a baddie trying to take down LoRab for no good reason, I would have dropped it after it didn't work. LoRab is a personal friend of mine and I won't go after her unless she twists my gut (except for the brief period I always thought she was bad). I also have played with her for 7 years and know for a damn fact she is not an easy target to get lynched. This is not baddie BR trying to take out an easy target. This is BR acting on her gut. When I act on my gut I cannot give you the proper reasons, the reasons some of you need to make sense of all. I have not built a case because there will be no good case to build. LoRab was accused early and she will be careful.

Could I be wrong? Damn right I could. I didn't role check her and I can't know with certainty. Am I questioning myself? Yes, because I am starting to wonder is HB has information I do not. If HB does not tell me he knows without a doubt she is civ then I will not trust LoRab this game.

I will go back and address any other concerns juliets and HB have.

[MacDougall]

BR I don't remember you being so committed in the previous games we played together. You on holidays or something?

[HamburgerBoy]

I have no information and am not doubtless that she is town.

[MacDougall]

I want to eat snake eggs. Has anyone done it?

[Epignosis]

I want to eat snake eggs. Has anyone done it?

I've eaten python, but it was too tough. Didn't like it.

[Black Rock]

BR I don't remember you being so committed in the previous games we played together. You on holidays or something?

I've been busy since June, January - April are my quiet months. I've been a pretty crappy player as of late. I joined this game promising myself I would get back to the true Mafia BR! At least for a game. There is folklore that surrounds that Black Rock that I feel I haven't been living up to. I once was so committed to Mafia that I even voted while in labour for my second born child?

Linki: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Epignosis]

I once was so committed to Mafia that I even voted while in labour for my second born child?

I delivered our third child at home.

[Black Rock]

I once was so committed to Mafia that I even voted while in labour for my second born child?

I delivered our third child at home.

I would be too afraid, I need a doctor to kick.

[Black Rock]

A question for LoRab before I go back and do what I said I would do... What do you think of HB defending you?

[MacDougall]

BR I don't remember you being so committed in the previous games we played together. You on holidays or something?

I've been busy since June, January - April are my quiet months. I've been a pretty crappy player as of late. I joined this game promising myself I would get back to the true Mafia BR! At least for a game. There is folklore that surrounds that Black Rock that I feel I haven't been living up to. I once was so committed to Mafia that I even voted while in labour for my second born child?

Linki: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat

[bea]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

[Black Rock]

OK, I finally got re-started though I'm disheartened on the BR iso. I'm doing the backhalf first because I just can't do that first half over again right now.

Here are the things BR said about Ricochet early in the game. Note these posts were interspersed with the posts about Lorab:

Spoiler: show

Oh, and I picked Xander Crews. I hope if that role is in the game that whoever has it finds more luck than I did with it. I never found a single xticle or whatever the hell they were.

The only Xander voter so far. Either there's a reward for the top choice(s) and Timmer's trying to stay away from it, perhaps distance himself from teammates, or there's something to gain from every option and he's trying to get his share. Confirmed baddie.

Cute.

I was just thinking how I wasn't going to vote for you day one because of the banner you're sporting, I may have changed my mind.

Ricochet
DharmaHelper
MacDougall
thellama73

DharmaHelper

a2thezebra
bcornett24
Bass_the_Clever
Black Rock
Boomslang
dfaraday
DharmaHelper
Dom
Dr. Wilgy
Draconus
Elohcin
Epignosis
Golden
Hamburger Boy
JaggedJimmyJay
Juliets
Long Con
LoRab
Matt
Metalmarsh
nijuukyugou
RadicalFuzz
sig
Sorsha
Spacedaisy
Timmer
Tranq

How can you have one of these already? Can you explain your reasonings for rainbow list placements?

The nose knows.

By your list the game must be off balance.

A current update of my rainbow list, hopefully less bloated and arbitrary this time.

Ricochet

DharmaHelper

MacDougall

thellama73

DharmaHelper

JaggedJimmyJay

Epignosis	a2thezebra	Hamburger Boy	Bass_the_Clever
Boomslang	bcornett24	Spacedaisy	Draconus
dfaraday	LoRab	Sorsha	nijuukyugou
Metalmarsh	Juliets	RadicalFuzz	Dom
sig	Matt	Tranq	Dr. Wilgy
Golden	Timmer	Elohcin

Black Rock

Long Con

DharmaHelper

Cute

What happened? I left off on page 8 and I just got back to page 20. Most of me does not want to read all of that.

In short: you're bad, three of your teamies have also been caught.

By me, the great Papryco.

Oh my, what is a girl to do.

That can be read in monotone.

What I was looking for was more the specific instances of his behavior. I did see your early day 0 poll post concerning his dismissal-yet-concern over the results, so I'll acknowledge that as a reasonable point, especially since I'm not in a position to discuss previous roles on the Syndicate (except Xander I guess). That one aside, and that he's now apparently given up, what is so unfathomable? So he cherry-picked some stuff involving Zebra's day 0 meta, not great, but arguments with Zebra always end up long and impassioned. I don't see it as unfathomable that he might get caught up in some silly argument as a town player.

Rico is not making poor arguments.

He isn't making arguments at all.

He is merely spouting nonsense and being a distraction. He says he is trying to catch baddies, but he has put literally zero effort into it. Not one of his cases demonstrates any attempt at any critical thought. The only thing he is putting effort into is being a distraction.

I see no civ motivation for that, and despite all of your defences of rico, and saying you think my question is manipluative or whatever, you (and anyone else) still haven't actually been able to present any sensible objective civ theoretical motivation for that behaviour.

In all seriousness, I'm beginning to be sorrowed by your willignness to put me down for the same reason you were lynched in Recruitement so badly - playing the game your way, to the best of your powers, with full confidence in being on the right path of exposing baddies. That's, frankly, what's unfathomable.

You can't understand where everyone is coming from? Maybe my opinion is shaded by knowing what alignment my role is, but it seems like you're just randomly accusing people and sometimes making statements that seem jokey and based on nothing. I don't see where you are catching baddies to the best of your ability, I see most (not all) of your posts more of a distraction. If you aren't a baddie you just made yourself an easy vote target that baddies can hide behind. In that case you just wasted a whole day of baddie hunting.

[quote="Back Rock]Now that I have quoted the post deleted the twirls and previewed it I can be satisfied.

Interesting back and forth between Rico and LoRab.

I haven't read the 11 pages before page 20, and I won't be unless I think I missed something important. Ricos posts don't count.

My opinion is all though Rico has been distracting and posting a lot of crap (all the way up to page 8) I don't find him that suspicious. Would he really want that much attention? I was thinking he had a neutral role, if those exist in this game.

He did have a point about LoRabs original post. Seemed easy and even her Matt points were wishy washy at best. Not the best example of LoRabs mafia play. Is she bad? or just not that into it?

I'm voting for you because you're using your post count to control the direction of the thread, and you're using your attitude as an excuse for any suspicious things you might happen to say. Your wrap-up post above seems like a genuine effort, but in the greater context of your ISO it can't be trusted as genuine. And your gimmick seems to have even fooled some of the players. Black Rock for instance made the point that as a baddie you wouldn't have a decent reason to call so much attention to yourself. I know the reason. To get as many people as possible to think just that, that you wouldn't be so "reckless" as a baddie to perform the way you have. I'm not perfect but I like to think I'm pretty decent at being able to tell the difference between civ WIFOM and mafia WIFOM, and you reek of the latter.

I was trying to stay out of the WIFOM of it all, your point is valid and maybe I shouldn't just chalk it up to crap non-baddie behaviour. He does make me want to vote him for his crap posts.

[/spoiler]

I'll stop here for a minute just to say it appears BR didn't take Ricochet seriously from the beginning. She didn't change her opinion of him and didn't vote him (she voted Lorab of course). Her reactions to him appear normal to me. This section does not include all her responses to Rico but is a good sampling.

Here BR expresses what I would call a ping against Sorsha. I don't know what to think of this - I include it in case anyone else sees it as important:

Spoiler: show

Thoughts on you posting a lot around the time of these deaths, actually.

I post when I have time to post. "These deaths?" Do you just mean DF? Or are you accusing me of killing zebra the baddie?

Sorry Sorsha, I do not like this post. Just because a baddie is killed doesn't mean another baddie didn't do it. So, what's your point?

I believe BR was the first to sniff that something was up with zebra's talk of cursers:

Spoiler: show

I'm fairly certain there are two curse roles, even if Draconus and/or JJJ is faking their curse.

That's a funny thing to say, what makes you so sure?

Spoiler: show

Hamburger Boy posts a rainbow list with BR in dark orange at the very bottom of the list. BR says WTF. Hambuger answers: I did mention you briefly a couple times but I'll list my grievances more formal-style now:

1. You specifically called out LoRab wanting to see what she'd say, and then (the following day) accused her of not answering questions when she had in the time between. Also, you never went back and addressed things with her after saying you'd read them.
2. Your reason for voting seemed to mostly follow Epi and Sorsha's case, the latter I especially didn't buy.
3. Aside from Rico, who you ultimately declared yourself undecided on regardless, you haven't seemed to look anywhere outside of LoRab

It is true that I can't find a time when BR went back and addressed Lorab's answers. I haven't compared BR's case to Epi and Sorsha - maybe BR could tell us whether she was bouncing off of their cases. True BR's comments about people have been mostly limited to Lorab and Rico though she did at least make comments about others (Tranq, zebra, JJJ though I'm not sure she asked questions of them prior to HB's list). To me the most compelling of these items is she didn't address Lorab's responses so that gives me another ping.

Spoiler: show

Lorab says to BR "No, she is not. If you could make a case on me, so that I can explain my actions and defend myself, please do. If you think you have info on me, it isn't accurate. I'm not bad, and I'd like to be able to defend." BR responds "You've played with me before right? I do not have info or access to info." So we are led to believe that BR's opinion of Lorab is based strictly on Lorab's posts and tone.

In this quote BR indicates that she agrees with Long Con about zebra cursing a member of her own team JJJ.

Spoiler: show

I think you are on zebra's team.

I think you're a crackpot.

I think, especially in a Champions Game, a baddie curser role on the first night would not target someone who they want to silence.

Why does it matter at all that this is a champions game? That's irrelevant.

I believe that zebra targeted her teammate JJJ with the curse, because they saw an opportunity to frame Llama.

That makes no sense. First of all, if that's the strategy then the person being emoji'd has no viable method to pursue that framejob. I couldn't bloody talk! Second, Zebra made no effort herself to pursue that end, and she even pooh-poohed the notion that llama was responsible. Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words. People did end up voting for llama, but many of them didn't actually give a reason why. They just did it.

JJJ was very sure that Llama was the one that cursed him.

I absolutely was not "very sure" llama was the one that cursed me. You've made that up. I literally said something else when Zebra herself asked me post-curse:

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

I was a threat to nobody on Night 0, being so vocally detached and lazy as I was. I made exactly one case against someone that was remotely substantive, that being llama. Llama addressed some posts in the general vicinity of that case, but never responded to anything I said. At any point. The next day I was posting in emoticons. Maybe there's a connection. Even if not, his ignorance of me is clearly deliberate at this point and I don't think town llama has any reason to ignore me. I've done nothing to insult him in any prior game, and I have not been a significant part of this game's torrent pace -- so I haven't annoyed him either. All I've done is cast suspicion upon him, both in the form of Night 0 text and Day 1 emojis.

He hasn't given me the time of day. I think he should become dead as soon as possible.

I believe they would try to pull a frame-up job.

Has he even considered that it might be an attempt to frame Llama?

Sure I have. It's not a theory I've viewed as the best theory because llama was so difficult to engage with at all -- multiple long phases of complete ignorance of everything I posted (text or emoji). It's a possibility. So is the idea that llama is on Zebra's team and she used her ability against someone threatening him. That's not at all farfetched.

It's also possible that Zebra cursed me because she could tell I didn't feel like dealing with Mafia and it'd be a fun break from the norm. If that's the case, thanks Zebra. It was fun.

I thought LC's opinion was interesting. This response just made me think he was right.

I don't agree with this opinion of LC's which gives me a slight ping about BR but I also know two civs can disagree with each other on someones guilt.

This is the next quote on the subject. I believe she is talking to JJJ:

Spoiler: show

"To be more specific

calling him a crack pot really attempts to invalidate what he is saying.

So you say you didn't say you were exactly sure (hmmm..) and stated so to Zebra (of all players) but your exact words were "I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates." Problem with that whole process of thinking is that LC DIDN't make that all up, you made it very clear to the thread and it seems you are back tracking now that we all know Zebra cursed you."

And then:

Spoiler: show

*alarm* BR defending LC alert!

In all seriousness though, my thoughts on BR is that she has been way more active than usual, and I've found her contributions generally positive, helpful and unique. I have a moderate town read based on the content. I'm not sure if there is anything to be read into the frequency.

I do genuinely find her defending LC slightly disconcerting, though. Not just because I am slightly suspicious of LC, but also because I think I remember BR saying something like she prefers to stay away from opinions about LC's affiliation. BR, what is it about LC that you think warrants you giving an opinion?

I think I could probably do a rainbow now if I put my mind to it. DH will love that.

That is not all together true. I'm not defending LC. I (at this point of my catch up) didn't think he needed defending. I'm agreeing, and disagreeing with players. Quite different. I hate that if I agree on an opinion LC shares it gets chalked up to BR defending her husband. I think in my 7 years of playing that we have proven otherwise.

I personally have not seen BR defending her husband that I can remember. I tend to think she is genuine in believing his point about JJJ.

BR's thoughts on Tranq: "Tranqs behaviour is starting to give me uncomfortable tingles. When Tranq plays a game he invests himself. If he's not investing in the thread it makes me think he's invested in BTSC." From playing with Tranq i know this is true and I too am having some doubts about him.

BR Question to Hamburger Boy: "Do you have a stake in LoRabs survival? Are you absolutely sure she won't flip bad? I'm not, in fact I think she will flip mafia. I am interested in other avenues though, like JJJ and Tranq. What avenues do you want us to explore?" Just shows how she is thinking recently.


Thats the back half of BR's Iso. Though I had two pings one was small and I don't feel like there is enough there for me to vote for her. I could not include every quote but i don't think I left out anything significant. Her latest suspicions I agree with one (Tranq) but disagree with the other (JJJ). I decided back before the first vote that Lorab sounded sincere to me when she answered the questions asked of her so I don't agree with BR there either. After a short rest I will do the front half of this iso that includes all the Lorab stuff.[/quote]

First point, I do not have a ping against Sorsha. I was just making a point. I have not read any posts of Sorshas that have made me suspicious of her.

With that said as my first point I am not going to address anything about Rico beyond this... I fully admitted that I got caught up and distracted by Rico. I should have known better. Most of my resposes to him were sarcastic and not meaningful.


I think I already addressed the LoRab stuff.

I'm glad you can see the Tranq thing. I was surprised at Sorshas response to it.

Juliets? Do you not think a baddie curser would target a teammate (especially early in the game) to try and distance, maybe try and frame a different player?

I don't feel there was much for me to address here. It seemed more before I started.

Linki: Bea I am so sad for you. I hope things get better. Honestly I think you should move forward from here and then check back on specific things as needed.

[MacDougall]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

So sorry to hear that Bea.

[bea]

I like MacDougall. Some thoughts about LoRab.

Quotes referenced:

Spoiler: show

Quote 1:

I need to wrap my brain around this game. I don't think I've played a champions game before--although I did co-host one. Cupcakes FTW!! Just got back from vacation...way too tired to think through what roles are included and how that decision may have been made. Will ponder after sleep. To do so earlier would be scandalous.

Quote 2:

The trick to day 1 is... don't read the posts, read the tone. Lorab especially reads tone bad. I can feel the backspaces she wrote as she second guessed her way into a fumbly first post. She bad, def bad.

Linki: I also analysed those options in Star Wars. I got no beef with you analysing the options, but you dived in so dramatically and are taking it so seriously. It's hard to say where my magical day 1 pings come from, but they are definitely magical.

I not, def not. That was painful to type.

You've never played a game with me bad--how do you know how to read my tone? Oh, and wait, you thought I was bad last game, too. And were wrong. Just saying.

Quote 3:

Deciding not to overthink and just vote. Especially because votes are changable.

Voted Ezekiel because rabbi--I mean, he's in the bible, and even in the half of it I believe in as sacred text.

please don't vocoro posts anyomre. As much as I love hearing your lovely voices I'll not always be in a place where I can easily access them.

[bea]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

So sorry to hear that Bea.

Thanks. It really sucks to hear both of them tell me they are "suspended." I've been around the block well enough to know what "suspended" means. My bosses aren't saying shit. It REALLY SUCKS to have two people you love. You love so much, you TRUST so much, say "I don't want you to think I did this. My worry was that you would think I"m a bad person. I love you."

Can someone please set me on a breadcrumb mafia place soon? cuz I'm tired and sad from adulting too much. I've only got so many tears left.

[MacDougall]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

So sorry to hear that Bea.

Thanks. It really sucks to hear both of them tell me they are "suspended." I've been around the block well enough to know what "suspended" means. My bosses aren't saying shit. It REALLY SUCKS to have two people you love. You love so much, you TRUST so much, say "I don't want you to think I did this. My worry was that you would think I"m a bad person. I love you."

Can someone please set me on a breadcrumb mafia place soon? cuz I'm tired and sad from adulting too much. I've only got so many tears left.

Lorab, Boomslang, JaggedJimmyJay, juliets and LC and Llama are attracting the most attention. It might be a nice idea to look into people other than them.

[LoRab]

A question for LoRab before I go back and do what I said I would do... What do you think of HB defending you?

Just finished reading up. Will answer this before I go off to sleep. Will answer other things tomorrow. But this is a direct question and came at the end (I may have cut and copied a bunch of quotes to paste into a window to respond to during my read, and then forgot I did, and cut and pasted something else and lost that entire thing).

Quite honestly, I find it suspicious. I think your suspicion of me is misguided but honest. I believe that you honestly think that I'm bad--it's not like you to make that up. And you wouldn't do that against me. I think those points are BS. I know that you're wrong. But I think that it's coming from the right place. You may be bad, but your suspicion of me isn't evidence of that.

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

[bea]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

So sorry to hear that Bea.

Thanks. It really sucks to hear both of them tell me they are "suspended." I've been around the block well enough to know what "suspended" means. My bosses aren't saying shit. It REALLY SUCKS to have two people you love. You love so much, you TRUST so much, say "I don't want you to think I did this. My worry was that you would think I"m a bad person. I love you."

Can someone please set me on a breadcrumb mafia place soon? cuz I'm tired and sad from adulting too much. I've only got so many tears left.

Lorab, Boomslang, JaggedJimmyJay, juliets and LC and Llama are attracting the most attention. It might be a nice idea to look into people other than them.

thanks for that. I think.

[LoRab]

<3 Bea!!!! Hugs to you.

[Black Rock]

A question for LoRab before I go back and do what I said I would do... What do you think of HB defending you?

Just finished reading up. Will answer this before I go off to sleep. Will answer other things tomorrow. But this is a direct question and came at the end (I may have cut and copied a bunch of quotes to paste into a window to respond to during my read, and then forgot I did, and cut and pasted something else and lost that entire thing).

Quite honestly, I find it suspicious. I think your suspicion of me is misguided but honest. I believe that you honestly think that I'm bad--it's not like you to make that up. And you wouldn't do that against me. I think those points are BS. I know that you're wrong. But I think that it's coming from the right place. You may be bad, but your suspicion of me isn't evidence of that.

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

This post is the first post that made me feel better about you, not perfectly better but it does help me evaluate a few of my thoughts.

[MacDougall]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

So sorry to hear that Bea.

Thanks. It really sucks to hear both of them tell me they are "suspended." I've been around the block well enough to know what "suspended" means. My bosses aren't saying shit. It REALLY SUCKS to have two people you love. You love so much, you TRUST so much, say "I don't want you to think I did this. My worry was that you would think I"m a bad person. I love you."

Can someone please set me on a breadcrumb mafia place soon? cuz I'm tired and sad from adulting too much. I've only got so many tears left.

Lorab, Boomslang, JaggedJimmyJay, juliets and LC and Llama are attracting the most attention. It might be a nice idea to look into people other than them.

thanks for that. I think.

[Epignosis]

A question for LoRab before I go back and do what I said I would do... What do you think of HB defending you?

Just finished reading up. Will answer this before I go off to sleep. Will answer other things tomorrow. But this is a direct question and came at the end (I may have cut and copied a bunch of quotes to paste into a window to respond to during my read, and then forgot I did, and cut and pasted something else and lost that entire thing).

Quite honestly, I find it suspicious. I think your suspicion of me is misguided but honest. I believe that you honestly think that I'm bad--it's not like you to make that up. And you wouldn't do that against me. I think those points are BS. I know that you're wrong. But I think that it's coming from the right place. You may be bad, but your suspicion of me isn't evidence of that.

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

So you're completely caught up?

[LoRab]

A question for LoRab before I go back and do what I said I would do... What do you think of HB defending you?

Just finished reading up. Will answer this before I go off to sleep. Will answer other things tomorrow. But this is a direct question and came at the end (I may have cut and copied a bunch of quotes to paste into a window to respond to during my read, and then forgot I did, and cut and pasted something else and lost that entire thing).

Quite honestly, I find it suspicious. I think your suspicion of me is misguided but honest. I believe that you honestly think that I'm bad--it's not like you to make that up. And you wouldn't do that against me. I think those points are BS. I know that you're wrong. But I think that it's coming from the right place. You may be bad, but your suspicion of me isn't evidence of that.

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

So you're completely caught up?

I've been caught up throughout the game--whether I've had time to fully respond has been my challenge. I know I have things to respond to from the past RL day (as I said). I will get to that tomorrow. Am not nearly awake enough at the moment.

[MacDougall]

A question for LoRab before I go back and do what I said I would do... What do you think of HB defending you?

Just finished reading up. Will answer this before I go off to sleep. Will answer other things tomorrow. But this is a direct question and came at the end (I may have cut and copied a bunch of quotes to paste into a window to respond to during my read, and then forgot I did, and cut and pasted something else and lost that entire thing).

Quite honestly, I find it suspicious. I think your suspicion of me is misguided but honest. I believe that you honestly think that I'm bad--it's not like you to make that up. And you wouldn't do that against me. I think those points are BS. I know that you're wrong. But I think that it's coming from the right place. You may be bad, but your suspicion of me isn't evidence of that.

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

So you're completely caught up?

I've been caught up throughout the game--whether I've had time to fully respond has been my challenge. I know I have things to respond to from the past RL day (as I said). I will get to that tomorrow. Am not nearly awake enough at the moment.

[HamburgerBoy]

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

People call me defensive of other players as both scum and town. I defended sig and pretty heavily the previous two games I played with him, for example; A World Reborn I was scum and he was civ, the other (RYM #91) I was civ and he was scum (this was more of a brief defense admittedly, but I totally dismissed a legit scumslip he had made and told everyone it was just a mistake and normal for him).

Do you agree with llama that people shouldn't have defended/stated the towniness of Fuzz, that it put a target on him?

[LoRab]

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

People call me defensive of other players as both scum and town. I defended sig and pretty heavily the previous two games I played with him, for example; A World Reborn I was scum and he was civ, the other (RYM #91) I was civ and he was scum (this was more of a brief defense admittedly, but I totally dismissed a legit scumslip he had made and told everyone it was just a mistake and normal for him).

Do you agree with llama that people shouldn't have defended/stated the towniness of Fuzz, that it put a target on him?

I generally believe that unless someone is under heavy suspicion, and an opinion of civ-ness will be helpful to prevent a false lynch, that stating that someone is a civ and proclaiming a likely civ-hood/trustedness is not a great idea. there are exceptions to the rule. Fuzz was not one of those exceptions.

[Marmot]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

I'm a marmot.

[MacDougall]

HB's posts, though, they feel like they're sucking up. He's being too nice about it, if that makes sense. And it's not like he knows me well enough to know how to read me. The more he defends me, the less good I feel about it. A civ, I think, wouldn't defend another civ that strongly because it would put targets on both of them. A baddie would defend a civ to gain credit. So, yeah, it makes me increasingly uneasy about him.

People call me defensive of other players as both scum and town. I defended sig and pretty heavily the previous two games I played with him, for example; A World Reborn I was scum and he was civ, the other (RYM #91) I was civ and he was scum (this was more of a brief defense admittedly, but I totally dismissed a legit scumslip he had made and told everyone it was just a mistake and normal for him).

Do you agree with llama that people shouldn't have defended/stated the towniness of Fuzz, that it put a target on him?

Let me interject for just one moment because I was thinking about this just a moment ago actually. I get annoyed when other people jump to the defense of people while I am frisking them but sometimes you just have to point out fallacies. What you did with the dismissal of a scumslip and saying it was normal for him falls into the category of would frustrate me. Whereas disputing with Golden that scum teams kill players for being largely civ read is disputing facts. I have killed players for being too civilian but it's not usually the only reason. Also I am a hypocrite.

[Matt]

Caught up...

@sig - I think you've defended well and defended all the cases. You've done enough to give me doubt. I'm by no means certain about you.

But you've also done enough to make me feel comfortable about voting your way, I feel good about it. But when people (including me) defend you for 'just being sig'... well, that shouldn't be dismissed. There is genuinely something to you getting lynched for nothing. In this case I just don't feel it is nothing.

I guess we will see.

Lol. Golden's obvi bad. Even when Golden was forced to vote for sig in Dune where sig was bad and Golden was civ, Golden was like "Sorry sig I don't wanna do this" or something to that effect. I think an iso of Golden is in order!

I also have a slight suss of FZ for reasons and I would like her to give me her read of Epignosis.

RIP bcornett, Fuzz, and Timmer. You three shall be avenged!

Welcome bea and motel room!

[HamburgerBoy]

Let me interject for just one moment because I was thinking about this just a moment ago actually. I get annoyed when other people jump to the defense of people while I am frisking them but sometimes you just have to point out fallacies. What you did with the dismissal of a scumslip and saying it was normal for him falls into the category of would frustrate me. Whereas disputing with Golden that scum teams kill players for being largely civ read is disputing facts. I have killed players for being too civilian but it's not usually the only reason. Also I am a hypocrite.

There can be an offensive value to a defense as well. For example, I knew something seemed off when rundontwalk didn't put up even one peep about my defense of sig, because he has made big deals over "scumslips" that were basically non-existent. Even if I'm being obnoxious, I don't want anyone to take it as me shutting them down (unless they're bandwagoners in which case I'll whine and pester and throw out other targets and try to get something new to happen). Like, if player X is grilling player Y, I'll try to wait for Y to provide their own defense first because I don't want to sabotage X's efforts.

[Long Con]

Here's why I suspect JJJ. He first became my suspect when Zebra was revealed as the curser. The theory is that Jimmy's belief that Llama was the one who cursed him was fake. JJJ is an experienced player, and I don't think an experienced player would jump to the conclusion that the person who he had some suspicion about would be his curser, with any certainty. JJJ's Smiley posts condemned Llama and might have gotten him lynched if not for Rico's shenanigans. No waiting to have a discourse, not consideration that it was a frame, just right to the idea that Llama cursed him, and here's why.

The way that JJJ dealt with it, coupled with the way that Zebra interacted with the idea, leads me to the belief that it was a plan. To put it another way - starting on a little thought journey into the baddie BTSC, discussing how to take advantage of a cursing role beyond the meagre reward of messing with someone... what I saw with the two of them looks a lot like a plan.

Going from this post:

Spoiler: show

JJJ, like HamburgerBoy already pointed out, despite the fact that you couldn't talk, you managed to easily convey that you believed Llama cursed you, and why you believed he cursed you. Saying "I couldn't bloody talk" is disingenuous.

The fact that Zebra didn't agree with you and pursue Llama as a suspect makes complete sense as a baddie teammate. If Llama is going to flip Civ, then it looks good on her that she wasn't after him with you.

Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words.

How can you say there's no value in it, when Llama was on par with Lorab as the top lynch candidate, without Rico in the equation?

Now you have torn your shirt open and gone to super-civ mode with your very helpful breakdown of zebra's interactions... after you have been accused. That looks like scrambling to me.

Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words.

This isn't the only time he has defended against my theory with the notion that being unable to clearly communicate for one phase makes the framing plan valueless. That makes no sense, and here's why I say that: First, JJJ quite capably made the case in Smiley talk that he thought Llama cursed him and wished to lynch him for it. Second, JJJ gets to talk after the curse is over, and so would have plenty of time to make the case later on, so "can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words" is not realistic. Zebra's unexpected death and reveal changed the plan irrevocably, does anyone believe that Jimmy would not have continued hunting for Llama's blood based on the idea Llama cursed him?

Here's another thing, read this one and then consider:

Spoiler: show

I did not suggest llama definitely cursed me or imply I was convinced of that. I said something completely different from that. I literally said "I don't know". The difference is not at all negligible.

But what you said was this:

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

Unless I'm reading it differently than you intended it, that's saying "I don't know if Llama did this or if one of his teammates did it".

The difference is negligible, because they both mean "Llama is a baddie on the cursing team".

You are. The word "maybe" should not be glossed over. It implies two realities: one in which llama has team mates and one in which he does not. If he does not have team mates, he isn't bad (this is me speaking within the perspective that "town" isn't a "team" in the same manner as a mafia team). I was clearly suspicious of llama and I said so both in text and in emojis. I thought there was a decent enough likelihood that either he cursed me or a mafia team mate of his cursed me.

I was not certain that's what happened. I'm not certain of anything at all.

Here's the actual quote by Jimmy. Does it read like he's proposing two different possibilities? One, where Llama is bad, and the other, where Llama is Civ?

Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.

Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?

I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

I was a threat to nobody on Night 0, being so vocally detached and lazy as I was. I made exactly one case against someone that was remotely substantive, that being llama. Llama addressed some posts in the general vicinity of that case, but never responded to anything I said. At any point. The next day I was posting in emoticons. Maybe there's a connection. Even if not, his ignorance of me is clearly deliberate at this point and I don't think town llama has any reason to ignore me. I've done nothing to insult him in any prior game, and I have not been a significant part of this game's torrent pace -- so I haven't annoyed him either. All I've done is cast suspicion upon him, both in the form of Night 0 text and Day 1 emojis.

He hasn't given me the time of day. I think he should become dead as soon as possible.

That line in pink is what he claims meant "It implies two realities: one in which llama has team mates and one in which he does not. If he does not have team mates, he isn't bad". The claims are quite obviously false when you read the post. Note who is asking him as well.

Another vaguer ping: After he got accused of this, he began an impressive, 'really-Civvish' ISO of Zebra. It was very helpful, and I believe several people thanked him for it. It's just the kind of thing that's easy to look at and say "this is good, solid contribution, very helpful to the Civs." What I see is one trick in the bag of tricks that an experienced player like JJJ knows will buy some cred.

I think that's pretty much it. Maybe a few gut feelings to shore it up. That's my JJJ case.

[Long Con]

Oh yeah, and the reasons for a couple more minor pings.

Appeal To Emotion:

This I understand. I'm not normally the sort to dismiss things like that. I've tried to explain here that my frankness and coldness is the result of significant Mafia burnout. There's also the fact that the most heartbreaking sporting disaster of my lifetime occurred on Sunday and it's left a hole inside me that is seriously a torment. That might sound silly to many, rightfully so, but I invest a great deal of emotion in the Bengals and they traumatized me. This could perhaps be OT text, but I think it's relevant to people understanding why I'm behaving the way I am.

I don't mean to be a jerk though. I'm sorry if I have been, y'all.

And Not Going To Be Around:

I'm in for a really busy day, so this might be a quiet phase for me. I'm changing my continent of residence in a few months.

Both these things are strategies I have seen baddies use more than once.

[Golden]

Caught up...

@sig - I think you've defended well and defended all the cases. You've done enough to give me doubt. I'm by no means certain about you.

But you've also done enough to make me feel comfortable about voting your way, I feel good about it. But when people (including me) defend you for 'just being sig'... well, that shouldn't be dismissed. There is genuinely something to you getting lynched for nothing. In this case I just don't feel it is nothing.

I guess we will see.

Lol. Golden's obvi bad. Even when Golden was forced to vote for sig in Dune where sig was bad and Golden was civ, Golden was like "Sorry sig I don't wanna do this" or something to that effect. I think an iso of Golden is in order!

You just pretty much demonstrated how my civ game in Dune, where by the way I thought sig was bad, is exactly the same as the game I'm playing here. I tend to express the various sides of my conflicted emotions when civ.

[Golden]

BR I don't remember you being so committed in the previous games we played together. You on holidays or something?

I've been busy since June, January - April are my quiet months. I've been a pretty crappy player as of late. I joined this game promising myself I would get back to the true Mafia BR! At least for a game. There is folklore that surrounds that Black Rock that I feel I haven't been living up to. I once was so committed to Mafia that I even voted while in labour for my second born child?

Linki: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

I'll say, this game is the BR I remember from good old RM days.

And it makes me trust you, because its the civ BR I remember.

[Matt]

Epignosis, please give a simple civ/baddie/indy/unsure response of the following players...

Golden, FZ, 3J, and Metalmarsh.

Llama - Are you still suspicious of Mac or have you completely dropped it now that the two of you have successfully helped get sig lynched? MacD, what's your read of Llama?

Thank you for your cooperation.

Linki - I'll have to go check Dune then, Golden, I swore you didn't want to lynch him.

[Golden]

Linki - I'll have to go check Dune then, Golden, I swore you didn't want to lynch him.

I didn't want to lynch him like that. But I was also the one saying that the fact we were all forced to vote him didn't make him civ (a conclusion that many others jumped to).

And anyway, I don't really understand where your analogy is coming from, in that no-one was forced to vote sig yesterday, so I'm not sure why you'd expect me to be particularly negative about his lynch situation. I was one of the driving thread forces speaking to the fact I thought sig's behaviour was bad. Saying he'd created doubt in my mind was the truth, but I don't tend to be redirected by doubt, because I regret second guessing my correct reads a lot more than I regret getting a read wrong.

[Golden]

Ps Matt, search your feelings, you know it is true (that I express multiple sides of conflicted emotions when civ). Trying to compare one sig lynch to another sig lynch in different circumstances is hardly using your full knowledge of my meta.

[Matt]

I dunno, that post of yours I quoted sounded basically like "Yo sig, great defense. I think you could be alright. But hey, gonna keep my vote where it is, k champ?" I'm hesitant to ever vote for sig early ever again really, and I was surprised to see you were one of the peeps leading the charge on him.

What's your read of Epignosis?

[Golden]

I dunno, that post of yours I quoted sounded basically like "Yo sig, great defense. I think you could be alright. But hey, gonna keep my vote where it is, k champ?" I'm hesitant to ever vote for sig early ever again really, and I was surprised to see you were one of the peeps leading the charge on him.

What's your read of Epignosis?

Its silly to be hesitant to vote for someone early ever again. You vote for who you think is bad. I defend sig when I think the case on him is bollocks and trumped up. Sig was not getting caught in apparent (but really not actual) scumslips. Plus, don't forget... I was calling him out as bad in Dune. I was calling him good in Reborn. I was calling him bad in Broadway. My reads on sig have generally been pretty good.

But yeah, he created doubt, for me. Enough doubt that I went back and read again and confirmed that I really felt that it was the right call.

PS, I had no vote yesterday to either put on sig or move somewhere else. If I did, I would have handled all of my suspicion yesterday very differently.

[Ricochet]

Oh, wow, br00tal Night. RIP Fuzz, Tim and b24. Not much bueno that three civs died, plus each of these roles could have been useful. On the mildly bright side, it seems we'll have two Day phases, so let's not screw 'em up too much.

I'm confused why some imply Fuzz killed DF specifically. Couldn't he have been the one who killed zebra, in fact? If Fuzz killed DF, it would leave the Mafia either killing their own (which is unconceivable) or kill an opposite mafioso - which is conceivable, but this triple-kill on N2 is starting to give me serious third-party/SK vibes (see below), which would turn a two-mafia team design into overkill. So I'm slightly leaning on Fuzz having vigi'd the hell out of Zebra. (Thank you for your service, if that's true.)

You have reached the below you should see. Ok, so the amount of kills makes me think of Psycho Killer. Maybe not all three of them, but at least two. PSK's double-kill ratio could have been simplified and imported into this game. We were even-numbered on N2 (26 players).

To Mac pondering about why b24 was killed, personally his kill looks precisely like the "sweep the low poster, avoid connections" type of night kill. Timmer was fairly begign in his activity and player-sussing, as well.

Catching up on the last two pages now... w00t, me? having to catch up?! nyeh nyeh nyeh

[Golden]

I think what it boils down to is this... when I think people do a good job and acquit themselves well, I'll say it.

Regardless of what sig's affiliation ended out being, I felt he did what he could do to convince me otherwise. He couldn't have done any more. I just still thought he was bad. He deserved to know that before being lynched.

[Matt]

And your thoughts on Epi, Golden?

[Ricochet]

ok - so you guys - you know how I tink all the time that *this time* I might have enough time to mafia?

I was looking forward to catching up on 58 pages of thread (really - I'm on page 3.)

And then of course, because i'm never allowed to be happy, so major shit just went down in my store. I'm srrsly crying right now because I lost my two most trusted employees. One of them admited to me, "they were so convinced that they were right and they kept threatening to call the police I just said yes to save my family the hurt."

I lost two of my brothers tonight. I should be happy to play with all of you scandalous bastards again. And I am. But in 48 hours I lost Bowie and my left and right arm of my store.

I'd srrsly appriciate serveral sumarries of the thread right now. As it is, I'll now hit the host posts and go from there unless anyone can point me to something specific that I should look at.

I'm really fucking broken right now.

Oh no, I'm sorry to hear that.

As I told FZ when she replaced, you should don't do a page-for-page recap, instead disregard everything I did on N0/D1, perhaps ISO players individually during that period. I can't fully summarize what happened on D2, because I was too busy to follow - but nothing good came out of it, anyway.

[Golden]

And your thoughts on Epi, Golden?

I'm feeling relatively good about epi at the moment, although its also accurate to say I can't really think of much he has done other than suspect LoRab. I don't know if that has been because he is off my radar and I'm not really noticing or if its because he hasn't really done much other than that.

A couple of times, though, I think good questions have been asked of epi and from my perspective his answers have passed muster.

A question for you, Matt. Why are you less involved and vocal in this particular game than you normally would be. I don't really know much you stand for either, although you suspect MM, right?

[MacDougall]

Epignosis, please give a simple civ/baddie/indy/unsure response of the following players...

Golden, FZ, 3J, and Metalmarsh.

Llama - Are you still suspicious of Mac or have you completely dropped it now that the two of you have successfully helped get sig lynched? MacD, what's your read of Llama?

Thank you for your cooperation.

Linki - I'll have to go check Dune then, Golden, I swore you didn't want to lynch him.

Llama is yellow skittle right now. He pinged me earlier but hasn't pinged me so much in recent action. Same as Lorab. Right now I am actually kind of not seeing anybody who is pinging me very much. Every player who I was suspicious of earlier has made me feel better about it since. Your question of Golden about his read on Epignosis is the pingiest thing I've seen in a while. Why are you asking about Epi?

[Ricochet]

SKITTLES

[Matt]

Golden, as you know, I was quite involved in another game here at TS, as well as the fact that this game was bombarded with lunacy (and lots and lots of posts to go along with it) until Rico was lynched. Today was my first of three days off in a row, and I finally caught up. You will be seeing a lot more of me from here on out.

Mac, why is it pingy that I'm asking players to tell me their reads of other players? What are your thoughts on Epig? Do you agree with him that Lorab should be lynched?

[HamburgerBoy]

I'm confused why some imply Fuzz killed DF specifically. Couldn't he have been the one who killed zebra, in fact? If Fuzz killed DF, it would leave the Mafia either killing their own (which is unconceivable) or kill an opposite mafioso - which is conceivable, but this triple-kill on N2 is starting to give me serious third-party/SK vibes (see below), which would turn a two-mafia team design into overkill. So I'm slightly leaning on Fuzz having vigi'd the hell out of Zebra. (Thank you for your service, if that's true.)

I think it all has to do with the order in which the night kills were announced in-thread. Zebra was the first one and seemed all official-like, as if that was the main kill. Then DFaraday came up a tiny bit later like an oopsie, which seems more like a town/third-party group. Worth noting that Faraday had been called out by Fuzz for suspecting him; in fact, Fuzz's post history contains double the references to Faraday than Zebra, and doesn't look too suspicious of Zebra (a couple brief disagreements), and considering that Zebra posted a lot more than the former, I think it definitely could have been Fuzz that placed the kill on Faraday.

[MacDougall]

Golden, as you know, I was quite involved in another game here at TS, as well as the fact that this game was bombarded with lunacy (and lots and lots of posts to go along with it) until Rico was lynched. Today was my first of three days off in a row, and I finally caught up. You will be seeing a lot more of me from here on out.

Mac, why is it pingy that I'm asking players to tell me their reads of other players? What are your thoughts on Epig? Do you agree with him that Lorab should be lynched?

You first swine. Answer my question.

[Ricochet]

I'm confused why some imply Fuzz killed DF specifically. Couldn't he have been the one who killed zebra, in fact? If Fuzz killed DF, it would leave the Mafia either killing their own (which is unconceivable) or kill an opposite mafioso - which is conceivable, but this triple-kill on N2 is starting to give me serious third-party/SK vibes (see below), which would turn a two-mafia team design into overkill. So I'm slightly leaning on Fuzz having vigi'd the hell out of Zebra. (Thank you for your service, if that's true.)

I think it all has to do with the order in which the night kills were announced in-thread. Zebra was the first one and seemed all official-like, as if that was the main kill. Then DFaraday came up a tiny bit later like an oopsie, which seems more like a town/third-party group. Worth noting that Faraday had been called out by Fuzz for suspecting him; in fact, Fuzz's post history contains double the references to Faraday than Zebra, and doesn't look too suspicious of Zebra (a couple brief disagreements), and considering that Zebra posted a lot more than the former, I think it definitely could have been Fuzz that placed the kill on Faraday.

I'm not sure. N1's proceedings reminded me a bit like Roxy and fingersplints hosting Syndicate, where the night results wouldn't necessarily come all at once. I don't see any reason for either zebra or DF to have had a "special" timing for their kill. Both their killers would have had to send their kills by the end of the phase.

The only oddity about zebra's kill (or killer) is zebra turning his posts into delirious swansong. If Fuzz killed her, it wouldn't reflect on that at all.

Anyway, I stick by my equation. If DF was killed by Fuzz, then who killed zebra. A teammate of zebra makes no sense. An opposite mafia makes, but in light of N2, how can we reconcile two mafia teams with third party killers?

Also, vigi mentality can or can't reflect in the vigi's activity. Fuzz simply locking on to DF doesn't imply he wouldn't have pointed his gun at zebra instead. Camouflage-y.