Mafia Championship Scrimmage [END]

[Frog]

Morning. Catching up now.

Sup dude - post reads etc. sooner - better

Not gonna lite - youre my tin foil

[Golden]

Not gonna lite - youre my tin foil

I'm sure you weren't drinking lite.

[Tangrowth]

I really am baffled why you continuously are saying things are "obvious" and why you make such confident assertions when... there's no way for you to know anything. Unless you're mafia. You've said on at least a handful of occasions some sort of sentiment as to how I'm mafia or that it's difficult to take me seriously, yet you haven't voted for me. I don't understand what you're doing.

Again, your play is all over the place, and from a wolf perspective, it looks opportunisitic, and it's looking to CHANGE the focus OFF of the four players I mentioned:

A2theZebra
Dr wigly
Pscitformus
Marhsellow89

I'm certain I've screwed up all of their names, lol.

From a town perspective, you came in catching up on everything, giving fresh opinions left and right, and chances are you could just be plain contrarian, which is awfully inconvenient.

I would never vote you today. I think there's a good chance you are town with some derping reads.

I'd rather try to keep focus on the 4 players I mentioned.

And yeah, its just like my opinion man :-P

But I still think it'd be optimal. Pretty much want to lynch between these 4 almost definitely. I think there's a 50/50 chance of lynching a scum.

In order of preference for lynches:
A2theZebra/Marmellow
pscitformus
dr wigly

Just off the top of my head based on gut

How is my play all over the place? I don't disagree with that characterization of my playstyle, particularly early game, but specifically what are you referring to?

You basically want to lynch a lurker? I mean, I can see why I suppose. I don't understand how you think I'm drawing attention away from those more than anyone else is... can you explain that?

[Tangrowth]

Morning. Catching up now.

Sup dude - post reads etc. sooner - better

Not gonna lite - youre my tin foil

Reads? I just posted a rainbow list at the end of the last time I was here. I would say they remain unchanged, at least, until I catch up and reevaluate based on new content. I'll give updated reads at that time; otherwise, assume they're the same.

[Tangrowth]

Yikes, I've been here significantly longer than I was supposed to. Okay. I have millions of things to get done. Be back later. Maybe this evening? Not sure exactly. Early tomorrow morning at the latest.

Cheers mate, kick ass and take names.

I usually find time to be busy all day, and play mafia all night. Who needs sleep anyway :-D

I try to go without more than 5 or 6 hours of sleep, it never seems to work.

[Frog]

Not gonna lite - youre my tin foil

I'm sure you weren't drinking lite.

I literally acnt stop hiccopanching

[Tangrowth]

Not Lynching Today List:
Golden 53
Marco 43
Sloonei 41
Frog 34
Dyslexicon 27
Silverwolf 25
sig 20
Zexy 20

Suspicious List, want these guys to lead:
MovingPictures07 13
ika 11
Long Con 11
Inawordyes 10

Process of Elimination Lynch List for today
DrWilgy 4
Metalmarsh89 4
a2thezebra 3
Psittaciform 2

Again, these are my current positions.

I'd be more fine than not with a lynch on any of the 4

Are those post counts?

You realize I have more than that now, right?

[Tangrowth]

ok anyways, MP i have gut read son them if that doesnt suffice then i dont got much else to say

sig is odd due to his birt of psting and being majoryldiffrent then turf

[Tangrowth]

I find it very much in character for Golden to defend me, regardless of his alignment, since it's something we both will not hesitate to do if we think the other one is town and is attracting heat early on, since we both often talk a lot and attract a lot of early suspicion, whether fairly or unfairly. A town Golden will not hesitate to defend with conviction any player he believes is town, but a scum Golden would have a similar incentive here since he would know I'm town. So the fact that he defends me is NAI, but I wanted to elaborate upon this nonetheless, in an attempt to provide meaningful context for Silverwolf and anyone else interested.

Do you think Golden had any reason to read you town at that time?

Not particularly, no. As I mentioned earlier, I saw it more as an attempt to defend me from being mafia based on my content in the thread at that time, rather than defend me for being town, if that makes sense. If others disagree, please state so.

This is exactly what it was in my mind. At the time of SW's vote I had no read on MP either way, but silverwolf rightly called my behaviour 'whiteknighting' and I do it quite regularly. I would call it defending someone against a rationale that I don't agree with. Sometimes I get caught defending scum because I'm defending them against an accusation I think is incorrect. And maybe the accusation WAS incorrect, but in any event they are still scum.

It is important to distinguish between disagreeing with someones case (and do therefore implicitly defending the person who is the subject of that case), and saying you read someone as town. They are different, even though they can easily appear conflated.

See, I do know you pretty well, don't I?

[Frog]

I really am baffled why you continuously are saying things are "obvious" and why you make such confident assertions when... there's no way for you to know anything. Unless you're mafia. You've said on at least a handful of occasions some sort of sentiment as to how I'm mafia or that it's difficult to take me seriously, yet you haven't voted for me. I don't understand what you're doing.

Again, your play is all over the place, and from a wolf perspective, it looks opportunisitic, and it's looking to CHANGE the focus OFF of the four players I mentioned:

A2theZebra
Dr wigly
Pscitformus
Marhsellow89

I'm certain I've screwed up all of their names, lol.

From a town perspective, you came in catching up on everything, giving fresh opinions left and right, and chances are you could just be plain contrarian, which is awfully inconvenient.

I would never vote you today. I think there's a good chance you are town with some derping reads.

I'd rather try to keep focus on the 4 players I mentioned.

And yeah, its just like my opinion man :-P

But I still think it'd be optimal. Pretty much want to lynch between these 4 almost definitely. I think there's a 50/50 chance of lynching a scum.

In order of preference for lynches:
A2theZebra/Marmellow
pscitformus
dr wigly

Just off the top of my head based on gut

How is my play all over the place? I don't disagree with that characterization of my playstyle, particularly early game, but specifically what are you referring to?

You basically want to lynch a lurker? I mean, I can see why I suppose. I don't understand how you think I'm drawing attention away from those more than anyone else is... can you explain that?

I've made my position clear. Youre q uestioning players who really shouldnt be questioned upon simple deduction. Admittingly, I dont know what level of a pl ayer you are. Specifically, ugh I'm laxy as fuck but im sure nested quotes should have at minimally referenced it. Yeah moving picutes, just chceked hwo I'm talking to to put a name to a history, you've been going after easy mislynches, and counter optimal stragegy quite a bit. My tinfoil is quite strong wi th you. I'd suggest if you're wolf at this point to go deep, because you will have no luck head to head if you will it. Either because of logical fallacies as scum or town.

I basically DONT want lyncha lurker, although, gae AND SHOVING NARRAITIVE. I've explained the pros and cons from:
1) Town - we froce town to partake in effective communciation
2) Scum - we force scum to take part in game solving w hich is agains their win con -e.g. VACa heavean
3) non-town - reder to T v S s cum perspectives until I bring it up in particular for now, but certainly expect your angus to be peppered. I'll just say this - the fallous is large and drowning. prove yourself dude.

[Zexy]

I am ISTJ. Many people mentioned their types and I feel like it is my DUTY to do so as well. I also feel like it is my DUTY to read through all the posts and reply to stuff. See the pattern?

Rainbow time - decided to treat it like gth and have no null reads.

Medium Town

Marco
Sloonei
Zexy

Mild Town

Frog
MovingPictures07
Silverwolf
Dyslexicon
Long Con
sig

Mild Bad

ika
Inawordyes
Psittaciform
Soneji
Metalmarsh89

Moderate Bad

a2thezebra
DrWilgy

Sloonei a bit too high. After his latest posts I would drop him a bit...
Silverwolf/Long Con a bit too high for my liking as well. Dyslexicon not yet sure. Especially now that he only wishes to find out when EOD is but is unwilling to give us other thoughts…
Wilgy maybe a bit too low? Quirky meta could move him up a tier I think. Or not, that OMGUS is bad…

- Players I have played at least one game with before are: Frog, Zexy, Kia, and sig.

... Objection? The only one was the recent 6er in MU in which we didn't interact at all. And the Mayor game which wasn't the mafia.

Anyways, if Frog thinks you’re outside of your meta I’ll trust him on that…

Zexy - Zexy's game isn't necessarily about post farming. I've seen Zexy's town game being low post count and being completely in tune with the game and coming up with the same conclusions as I do without taking the leadership position. I've also seen Zexy in the leadership position for Town but it makes her prone to mislynches.

The two games you are talking about had a HUUUUUGE activity difference. In my homesite I can easily be the most active guy and lead and have lots of a voice. That's why I was picked as the rep. Oh, btw, it's now set in stone, I'll be Bulba's rep. In MU I am struggling to keep up. Here, I am also struggling but not as much. I am not prone to mislynches in Bulba, in MU I am a bit when I'm not giving it my all to be honest, in the SHOTS 9er, I wasn't giving it my all. I'm not exactly giving it my all in this game as well but I sure try more. because I need to practice for the Champ, and there I'll have to give 101% all

19 is read.

[Tangrowth]

Null:
sig

Why is sig null?

Couldn't make up my mind on him. Going to move him to slight town I'm thinking.

[Frog]

Not Lynching Today List:
Golden 53
Marco 43
Sloonei 41
Frog 34
Dyslexicon 27
Silverwolf 25
sig 20
Zexy 20

Suspicious List, want these guys to lead:
MovingPictures07 13
ika 11
Long Con 11
Inawordyes 10

Process of Elimination Lynch List for today
DrWilgy 4
Metalmarsh89 4
a2thezebra 3
Psittaciform 2

Again, these are my current positions.

I'd be more fine than not with a lynch on any of the 4

Are those post counts?

You realize I have more than that now, right?

Literally ntohing matters WRT vount coubnts since I've made it an issue because it's osme thinthing to eplay off of.

If you *acutally* have a case WRT vote counts, then you literally agree w ith everything I say because merits in VCA. Otherwise, your opponent WRT VCA. You assume undermining ally role, whihc is literally impossible. F off GG etc.

[Tangrowth]

Somebody tell me who I should vote for. I am not going to be able to read this thread tonight. Or tomorrow. Or the next day. I probably should have stayed on the sidelines.

moving picutre

Why?

you asked who to vote for noting else

Now I'm asking why. Why?

i know i wanted to have some fun.

no but mp doesnt seem to believe in his push when he was pushing me when i called him out on it.

then when sivler moves her vote after MP was suspecing her slighy, makes a 180 and joins her

I still believe it. I never made a 180. The reason I gave was that my opinion had not changed but I decided to let it go and follow a different path for now, because I didn't feel I was doing anything productive.

Why other people don't find you suspicious for just throwing out names and not backing any of them is beyond me. I saw your play in E.S.T. and you gave firm reasons for people being mafia, from what I recall, and I'm not seeing that here.

[Frog]

oh god im way too drunk atm.

AMA simple QAs. such hiccipughps

[Golden]

Youre q uestioning players who really shouldnt be questioned upon simple deduction.

This is such an odd statement. If you think scum deduction is that simple, I'd assume you never lose.

EVERYONE should be questioned. No stone should be entitled to be left unturned.

[Tangrowth]

Not Lynching Today List:
Golden 53
Marco 43
Sloonei 41
Frog 34
Dyslexicon 27
Silverwolf 25
sig 20
Zexy 20

Suspicious List, want these guys to lead:
MovingPictures07 13
ika 11
Long Con 11
Inawordyes 10

Process of Elimination Lynch List for today
DrWilgy 4
Metalmarsh89 4
a2thezebra 3
Psittaciform 2

Again, these are my current positions.

I'd be more fine than not with a lynch on any of the 4

Are those post counts?

You realize I have more than that now, right?

Literally ntohing matters WRT vount coubnts since I've made it an issue because it's osme thinthing to eplay off of.

If you *acutally* have a case WRT vote counts, then you literally agree w ith everything I say because merits in VCA. Otherwise, your opponent WRT VCA. You assume undermining ally role, whihc is literally impossible. F off GG etc.

I just don't understand why your rainbow list is still arranged by post counts that are clearly outdated. Is that just a coincidence?

Feel free to respond when you've sobered up if you're feeling too out of it.

[Frog]

Somebody tell me who I should vote for. I am not going to be able to read this thread tonight. Or tomorrow. Or the next day. I probably should have stayed on the sidelines.

moving picutre

Why?

you asked who to vote for noting else

Now I'm asking why. Why?

i know i wanted to have some fun.

no but mp doesnt seem to believe in his push when he was pushing me when i called him out on it.

then when sivler moves her vote after MP was suspecing her slighy, makes a 180 and joins her

I still believe it. I never made a 180. The reason I gave was that my opinion had not changed but I decided to let it go and follow a different path for now, because I didn't feel I was doing anything productive.

Why other people don't find you suspicious for just throwing out names and not backing any of them is beyond me. I saw your play in E.S.T. and you gave firm reasons for people being mafia, from what I recall, and I'm not seeing that here.

You're more likely town than not. Less show more umph.

[Frog]

Not Lynching Today List:
Golden 53
Marco 43
Sloonei 41
Frog 34
Dyslexicon 27
Silverwolf 25
sig 20
Zexy 20

Suspicious List, want these guys to lead:
MovingPictures07 13
ika 11
Long Con 11
Inawordyes 10

Process of Elimination Lynch List for today
DrWilgy 4
Metalmarsh89 4
a2thezebra 3
Psittaciform 2

Again, these are my current positions.

I'd be more fine than not with a lynch on any of the 4

Are those post counts?

You realize I have more than that now, right?

Literally ntohing matters WRT vount coubnts since I've made it an issue because it's osme thinthing to eplay off of.

If you *acutally* have a case WRT vote counts, then you literally agree w ith everything I say because merits in VCA. Otherwise, your opponent WRT VCA. You assume undermining ally role, whihc is literally impossible. F off GG etc.

I just don't understand why your rainbow list is still arranged by post counts that are clearly outdated. Is that just a coincidence?

Feel free to respond when you've sobered up if you're feeling too out of it.

I WILL tryi drunk. The simple answe is this. When I brought up the topic - the topic was FRESH. Now the topic is DRYU. What i mean by that is this, simply:

Assume Player A wins by voting 1
Assume Plauer B wins by voting 2
Assume Player C wins by voting EITHER 1 or 2

If player C announces intentions, then players A AND B will announce intetions.

Similarly to town scum - I've announced - AHAHAHAHA I caught you scum MOFO LOW POSTER POS. Naturally th post counts adjust accordinagly. Because it's a play OFF of common kn woledge. As soon as I publicated the common knowledge, it became a reference of common knowlege. The term in game theory if KR, KRR, KRRR, KRRRR etc. (knowlege of rationa lity, etc. etc. etc.)_

[Tangrowth]

@Golden-constant excuses is because, besides the content I didn't like that I pointed out, he only was telling us his schedule and why he couldn't be here, I never doubted his RL, let me give you an example:

In a MS game offsite (ika-this is 188), there was a player named Ozgin. He was scum in that game. His first few posts were exactly like MP's-giving out his exact schedule of when he could post or not and continuing to do that. So this is why I am wary of it.

I was trying to get him to stop taking the time to do that, but to take the time to post content, when he could come back and do so.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to do then.

I've been taking the time to post content whenever I'm here for longer than 2 seconds, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I knew I would be incredibly busy yesterday; I warned you all of it. It's something I do in every game regardless of alignment. If you don't take my word on that, then fine, but one comparison to some other player in some other specific circumstance does not mean I'm the same alignment.

The way I take this is, SW feels you could have used the time telling us you weren't going to be around to make reads.

Personally, I know that you (and I, as well) have a need to tell people when we won't be around since we are such high posters that people suspect us merely for being quieter, even when we have rl reasons for it. But, I can see why silverwolf might not have realised there is legitimate reason why you need to do this. This post made me feel a lot better about her original vote for you.

I don't disagree, I can fathom her thought process with respect to that early vote as well. It doesn't mean she's right about me though (hint: she isn't).

[Frog]

@Golden-constant excuses is because, besides the content I didn't like that I pointed out, he only was telling us his schedule and why he couldn't be here, I never doubted his RL, let me give you an example:

In a MS game offsite (ika-this is 188), there was a player named Ozgin. He was scum in that game. His first few posts were exactly like MP's-giving out his exact schedule of when he could post or not and continuing to do that. So this is why I am wary of it.

I was trying to get him to stop taking the time to do that, but to take the time to post content, when he could come back and do so.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to do then.

I've been taking the time to post content whenever I'm here for longer than 2 seconds, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I knew I would be incredibly busy yesterday; I warned you all of it. It's something I do in every game regardless of alignment. If you don't take my word on that, then fine, but one comparison to some other player in some other specific circumstance does not mean I'm the same alignment.

The way I take this is, SW feels you could have used the time telling us you weren't going to be around to make reads.

Personally, I know that you (and I, as well) have a need to tell people when we won't be around since we are such high posters that people suspect us merely for being quieter, even when we have rl reasons for it. But, I can see why silverwolf might not have realised there is legitimate reason why you need to do this. This post made me feel a lot better about her original vote for you.

I don't disagree, I can fathom her thought process with respect to that early vote as well. It doesn't mean she's right about me though (hint: she isn't).

Minorly convinced TBH.

Telll meHOW you are town in your uniq ue way please. preferably 1 minute to go.

[Golden]

Sloonei a bit too high. After his latest posts I would drop him a bit...
Silverwolf/Long Con a bit too high for my liking as well. Dyslexicon not yet sure. Especially now that he only wishes to find out when EOD is but is unwilling to give us other thoughts…
Wilgy maybe a bit too low? Quirky meta could move him up a tier I think. Or not, that OMGUS is bad…

I'm still liking my rainbow for now. No change. I understand why you would find LC high in particular, but LC is probably the player in this game who I've played with the most (either him or MP), and I think I get good reads on him more often than not. Right now, I don't have any reason really to town read him but I certainly don't have any reason to mild scum him, nothing about his play seems off to me, and I was going for no null reads.

[Zexy]

Zexy - yes I fucked up in our 9er shooter game. TBO Panther is fucking legit. We stokr each other like cats on Cleopatra's alters. I thought I had a the sub read that failed disinctly (obv can't relaease it publically, but shoot me a PM for the fake meta town read I thought was legit).

Not more than me. To be... Onest? Drunk? Something else?
Is getting drunk and posting a lot when town a tactic of yours to show us all that you don’t have anything to hide?

Well… tbh I have to go soonish and I can’t entirely focus on all of Dyslexicon’s catch up thing yet. I know it will be very useful to do so and I will do it, since I’m on the fence with my read on him… just not yet. I don’t feel like pushing his lynch d1 anyway.

20 is read.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Since I'm playing to my standard MMMeta, might as well continue the RVS! D1 is the time to hear from everyone, so since Soneji is the only who left who hasn't checked in yet, my vote goes with him for the moment. Heyo Soneji! How are you doing? TELL US THE NAMES OF YUR SCUMMEHS!!!

*cough* Ahem, who would you, er, "conveniently" place as your list of baddies? Yeah, that's a good question. I'll show him!]/s]

I'm pinged here by inawordyes's declaration that he is playing to his own meta. Dom caught me in Arkham Mafia for saying this same thing. It indicates the mindset of someone who is purposefully making posts with the intention of playing to an existing standard, which can be defended against with the mere declaration that it's "my meta".

Huh, nice catch! That Ina girl is pretty teh scummehs.

Haha I didn't really mean anything by it, I was just commenting that I was gonna play as myself, my standard play, rather than the aggressive MU play that I have to adopt to adapt. I guess saying meta kinda soured the whole intent though, so I'm sorry for that.

Any questions you have about my meta? I can link games from across my MM spectrum for reference if you guys want.

I suppose this makes more sense for those who know you with respect to both or one style(s) of play.

Meta questions... not particularly, but I'll gladly take a link to at least one game from MM, sure.

[Zexy]

Question for Frog; What is VCA?

… idk what else I have to say for now. Tbh I have to go again and I got a bit discouraged to keep going right now upon seeing Dyslexicon’s hugeposts. But I’ll be back.

[Tangrowth]

Ika - Once upon a time Ika was an very dedicated player. After years of gaming Ika became jaded and stopped giving so many shits and pretty much plays on gut reads. When he gives a shit and posts like nuts, he's more town than not. Relationship with Silverwolf
Silverwolf - Silver wolf is an analytical player. I've seen Silver Wolf's deduction and interactivity being generally aggressive.
Zexy - Zexy's game isn't necessarily about post farming. I've seen Zexy's town game being low post count and being completely in tune with the game and coming up with the same conclusions as I do without taking the leadership position. I've also seen Zexy in the leadership position for Town but it makes her prone to mislynches.
IAWY - IAWY is generally aggressive high poster as town. #respect|

Me - I'm... the Solo Hero.

This is all good to know, thanks.

[Frog]

Question for Frog; What is VCA?

… idk what else I have to say for now. Tbh I have to go again and I got a bit discouraged to keep going right now upon seeing Dyslexicon’s hugeposts. But I’ll be back.

Vote count analysis

There's a lot that goes into player to player

[Tangrowth]

"shinigami aren't permitted to undo that which has been fated. At that moment jealous became something that is ne ither sand nor rust, he died. The only reminder of his existence became his deathnote which remained his life"

FYI - in the champs games do not expect to ask public questions wrt the game to the host. Doing so is considered shooting an angle and breaking the rules.

Speaking of:
Question to JJJ:
How do you kill a shinigami?

Death Note is awesome.

[Frog]

AHHH FML - Personal situations might get heavy this week after tonight beyond. Can town please steamroll? Please? focuson the 4 low posters i suggested plox.

[Tangrowth]

Page 12-15 - Still catching up.

I'd highly suggest reading all content when you get the chance, because I'd like to hear more from you. You're towards the bottom of my upcoming rainbow right now, so I'd support your lynch and you should have at least some sense of urgency for that reason.

Minor detail (maybe) - but you've decided the order of the list before you're done catching up? Still a few pages to go between the Ika quote you replied to and this post.

Marco, I'll get to your post on zebra in a bit, but I want to finish technically catching up so I can work on my rainbow.

Especially when you want to catch up before working on the rainbow. "Technically" catch up?

Spoiler: show

I find it very much in character for Golden to defend me, regardless of his alignment, since it's something we both will not hesitate to do if we think the other one is town and is attracting heat early on, since we both often talk a lot and attract a lot of early suspicion, whether fairly or unfairly. A town Golden will not hesitate to defend with conviction any player he believes is town, but a scum Golden would have a similar incentive here since he would know I'm town. So the fact that he defends me is NAI, but I wanted to elaborate upon this nonetheless, in an attempt to provide meaningful context for Silverwolf and anyone else interested.

Do you think Golden had any reason to read you town at that time?

Not particularly, no. As I mentioned earlier, I saw it more as an attempt to defend me from being mafia based on my content in the thread at that time, rather than defend me for being town, if that makes sense. If others disagree, please state so.

That makes sense and is how I read it too, but in the original quote here you only talk about how Golden's defense makes sense because him defending town reads is something he would do. So then that is a different thing altoghether from how you say you were reading the situation of Golden defending you, making the original quote not applicable.

In other words it reads to me - "I don't find what Golden was doing alignment indicative, but that wasn't what he was doing."

Guts not guy

On my home site "gut reads" are often called "guy reads" because of this common autocorrect. :P Guy reads <3

Spoiler: show

Just checking in quickly - from what I understand we have until Sunday night (great because I've been busy all day)

I don't see people jumping for joy at my plan - I hope at least someone explained this much:

I'm not saying EVERY slanker is a mafia - I'm saying within a mafia team there is usually at LEAST one slanker.

Therefore if we round up the slankers, we can assume at least 1 of the slankers IS mafia.

As for VCA (vote count analysis) - we KNOW (basically) that we are voting amongst town and wolves. THAT is our VCA. Whoever pushes hard against this plan so far is either clearly mafia, derping, or just a different state of mind that is denial.

Hottakes! Who has been pushing hardest against me and my plan since I've left?
Clearly someone has since I don't see a bunch of vovtes on the slankers.

I am much disappointed, but now I'm more certain I've struck gold.

I don't care for your "plan" because I don't care for plans in general. I don't need a plan to push lurkers or even wanting to see one lynched. Lurkers should be pushed and should be lynch options or else mafia can just skate by. If I see a non-lurker I'd rather vote for I'm doing that. I don't want to waste time talking about whether or not a plan should be implemented to do something that can just as easily be done as a natural part of the game. IMO that wastes time and opens for a type of meta-game discussion ("Is lynching lurkers a good idea or not?" and the variants) that isn't really game solving and is very easy for scum to take part in to look like their doing something. Again, I'd rather just scum hunt.

If he's tryhard wolf, it is worth the effort to me.

I thought the exact same thing, and almost quoted him on it too.

Btw this overall behavior from MP is seriously towny. His questions/cases on everybody make lots of sense.

I disagree!

Spoiler: show

Yes.

The thing that is most suspicious to me about silver is not the vote itself, per se. Just look at the post I made where I said I didn't like the vote, and then her response.

I asked a whole lot of questions of her after saying I didn't like the vote at all. Her response was to call me defensive (what was I defensive about?) and deflecting (who was I deflecting from?)

This reaction was so over the top, it's what made me feel worse about silverwolf.

However, when she calmed down and started answering my questions, I thought her responses were fair. My continued suspicions of her fall well short of me being convinced she must be bad.

K, well I found the whole thing pretty towny on her part, but I do realize that being in that discussion in real time is a different thing. She's coming across as very town to me in later posts, we even think the same things it seems.

Also, to you and zexy - you shouldn't rely on a strong town meta from me as being a sign I'm town. I think (others can give you their own opinion) that I maintain a pretty solid helpful-civ meta across both town and scum. It's totally fair for you to be paranoid. But I am town this game.

Yes, this is what was my hunch, and why I'm paying some extra attention to you. And I bet you'd say this as town and scum as well. :P

I mean, look at this. What am I supposed to do with this. Are you even reading my posts at all?

Yes, I feel bad for you about this. Must be frustrating no matter alignment.

Here, have a kitty:

OVERALL, we need 9 votes. I'm hoping as town, we can find them today on someone. We are too divided it seems and I'd like to get a consensus before day ends. I do realize we have time but not a much as you'd think.

No, we don't need 9 votes. The person with the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched. 9 votes is only for hammer lynching before the deadline.

Dizzy, to respond to the your points addressing me, in order:

1) I had not decided the order of the list permanently; at that time, I was thinking ika would likely be above Frog, not below him. Hence I said "towards the bottom". Later in my posts you can see how I explained that I wasn't firm on ika being my bottom read with 100% certainty until I voted for him.

2) Yes, I caught up to where I had posted to start the day, and then my "technical" catch up was to catch up on posts that were made since I entered the thread that I didn't fully digest.

3) That's a good distinction. In the original, I didn't provide context for Golden defending people from suspicion, regardless of whether he is town reading them. That was an oversight.


Also this:

Page 15-18

Oh, Frog, I owe you 4 names for your low poster thing, don't I? Even if I don't agree with it, I'll gladly oblige.

Why?

Why wouldn't I? That would be obstructionist. Just because I disagree with focusing solely on low posters doesn't mean I shouldn't provide a list if Frog wants them.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Anyway, thoughts and stuff after catching up.

Suspicious of MP. I did not find his push on Ika convincing at all, and I found it to be an easy push at the time. He is more so defending why it's reasonable for him to suspect Ika than actually accounting for why Ika is scum. At least that is what I see. There's also other things that makes little sense to me (see my catch up with questions and stuff).

VOTE MOVING PICTURES

Noting also that he is softly defending Golden. Don't know what this says about Golden, he may be town if MP is scum, but I'm not sure.

So in the Silver and Ika vs MP and Golden think, I'm most inclined to think MP as scum. Golden I'm not sure of, sometimes I think town and then something happens and I'm doubting again. Silver seems very town to me. Lol me if I'm wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ika does seem town to me, he reads fearless town, but less sure of this read as there is not so much to go on here.

---

I really really really want to slap PSI and Soneji with a cod right now. They need to get into this game right meow. For reals.

---

Conflicted on sig. He did look a lot better last he posted, but there's not that much to go on.

As for the case on Zebra, I don't know her. The case is reasonable, and she could be scum. What makes me doubt is my doubt about some of the people advocating her lynch.

Sloonei is apparently having time contrains. That sucks, cause it doesn't make it easier to read him. Not a town read for me right now, but can't really say he is scum either.

I want Marco to post more thoughts on players and less mechanic/strategic analysis. Still reads town.

^I could say the same for Frog, but you know, Frogs be jumping and I'm just going to let them.

Btw, I skipped a lot of the talk about the lurker lynch plan, and all that. Not interested. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And I think I'll actually attempt do a rainbow list, cause they are pretty. But I rarely agree with myself once they are posted. I'm all

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

[Tangrowth]

Town
Silverwolf

Townish
Marco

Slight town maybe not sure
ika
Zexy
Frog

Null
Golden
Inawordyes
DrWilgy
Sloonei

Null but suspicious
a2thezebra
sig
Long Con

Scummish
MovingPictures07

Extreme lurk alert:
Psittaciform
Soneji
Metalmarsh89

Why is Golden null?

[Golden]

It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around.

I already said this, and I agree.

I don't like it when people say the 'easy push' is a thorough case that no-one is following, especially when the same people are saying we should ignore reads, have no-one with high posts question each other, and go exclusively after low posters.

[Tangrowth]

I guess what I'm saying is, if mp was scum, I think any soft defence he would make of me would be with the goal of getting me on side. He had me as null, I think if he was disingenuous scum buddying me he would have me at least as slight town.

The best angle for him being scum right now is that he is not soft defending me, but rather trying to replicate how he feels he would read me if he was town.

But, I don't see the suspicion on mp right now. I lean town, I don't think his suspicions are that weak like others seem to think. I just don't see the suspicion that others do.

Golden, not to dig my own mislynch here, but... I had you as slight town.

[Frog]

Spoiler: show

Anyway, thoughts and stuff after catching up.

Suspicious of MP. I did not find his push on Ika convincing at all, and I found it to be an easy push at the time. He is more so defending why it's reasonable for him to suspect Ika than actually accounting for why Ika is scum. At least that is what I see. There's also other things that makes little sense to me (see my catch up with questions and stuff).

VOTE MOVING PICTURES

Noting also that he is softly defending Golden. Don't know what this says about Golden, he may be town if MP is scum, but I'm not sure.

So in the Silver and Ika vs MP and Golden think, I'm most inclined to think MP as scum. Golden I'm not sure of, sometimes I think town and then something happens and I'm doubting again. Silver seems very town to me. Lol me if I'm wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ika does seem town to me, he reads fearless town, but less sure of this read as there is not so much to go on here.

---

I really really really want to slap PSI and Soneji with a cod right now. They need to get into this game right meow. For reals.

---

Conflicted on sig. He did look a lot better last he posted, but there's not that much to go on.

As for the case on Zebra, I don't know her. The case is reasonable, and she could be scum. What makes me doubt is my doubt about some of the people advocating her lynch.

Sloonei is apparently having time contrains. That sucks, cause it doesn't make it easier to read him. Not a town read for me right now, but can't really say he is scum either.

I want Marco to post more thoughts on players and less mechanic/strategic analysis. Still reads town.

^I could say the same for Frog, but you know, Frogs be jumping and I'm just going to let them.

Btw, I skipped a lot of the talk about the lurker lynch plan, and all that. Not interested. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And I think I'll actually attempt do a rainbow list, cause they are pretty. But I rarely agree with myself once they are posted. I'm all

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

lel - TBH im bedazzled - Ika and/or silverwolf w ith abit of elbow grease is a simple lynch whether town or scum. But it's a weak player push. I've been opposing it precisely because of that.

Rest assured - I WILL resolve multiple players tomorrow

I'd prefer if we coordinated amongst the 4 I suggested for now.

[Tangrowth]

How is my play all over the place? I don't disagree with that characterization of my playstyle, particularly early game, but specifically what are you referring to?

You basically want to lynch a lurker? I mean, I can see why I suppose. I don't understand how you think I'm drawing attention away from those more than anyone else is... can you explain that?

I've made my position clear. Youre q uestioning players who really shouldnt be questioned upon simple deduction. Admittingly, I dont know what level of a pl ayer you are. Specifically, ugh I'm laxy as fuck but im sure nested quotes should have at minimally referenced it. Yeah moving picutes, just chceked hwo I'm talking to to put a name to a history, you've been going after easy mislynches, and counter optimal stragegy quite a bit. My tinfoil is quite strong wi th you. I'd suggest if you're wolf at this point to go deep, because you will have no luck head to head if you will it. Either because of logical fallacies as scum or town.

I basically DONT want lyncha lurker, although, gae AND SHOVING NARRAITIVE. I've explained the pros and cons from:
1) Town - we froce town to partake in effective communciation
2) Scum - we force scum to take part in game solving w hich is agains their win con -e.g. VACa heavean
3) non-town - reder to T v S s cum perspectives until I bring it up in particular for now, but certainly expect your angus to be peppered. I'll just say this - the fallous is large and drowning. prove yourself dude.

Wait, what?

No player should ever say that in the existence of mafia games ever.

Easy mislynches? LOL, you're the one pushing lurkers. I already debated against this earlier and you didn't engage with me. Who decides what is an easy mislynch? You're implying that you KNOW ika is town. How would you know that? How do you know he's an easy mislynch? Enlighten me, Frog, since you're so clear on pushing the script that I'm pushing mislynches.

[Tangrowth]

Youre q uestioning players who really shouldnt be questioned upon simple deduction.

This is such an odd statement. If you think scum deduction is that simple, I'd assume you never lose.

EVERYONE should be questioned. No stone should be entitled to be left unturned.

QFT

[Tangrowth]

You're more likely town than not. Less show more umph.

What do you mean?

[Frog]

Meh - o just realized majjority of you (certainly not all of you) require basic argumentation.

Spoiler: show

I feel like we have a ton of new players coming into the game but the level of player improvement is very low. It is my hope that this is simply because players don't really know where to start. Answering the question "How do you get better" is a tough one to tackle. For that reason I decided to make a few guides that should provide players with tools to improve their play. This guide will cover communication, perspective, and strategy. Perspective and strategy portions will be posted later. If your idea of scum hunting is learning that 'scum do this' then hunting for that you will never be successful. To really grow as a player you need to understand these 3 factors and analyze things independently for each situation and player. A good portion of this guide is some very basic shit you probably learned in grade school but I am focusing on it because it is the foundation that will determine how effective you could be in the game.

I. Communication

It is absolutely critical to be able to convey information to others in a way that they will understand, accept, and push your win condition forward. It is equally critical to understand exactly what other players are communicating and 'why'. If you are town you will be able to effectively convey your reads, identify scummy posts and prevent them from mislynching you. If you are scum you will be able to mislynch the town, keep them off balance, and prevent slipping. If these are things you want to improve on this section should greatly help.

This portion is focused on communication. There are aspects of scum hunting in it but that is something that will be covered in mcuh more detail as I get into Perspective and Strategy. If you would like to contribute to improve this guide or contribute to the other portions let me know.

Spoiler : 1. Basic parts of an argument : Click to show


A- Claim

The Claim is the point you are trying to make. This is what you are trying to persuade your reader to accept.

B- Warrant
This is the common belief you are using to pivot your audience into accepting your argument. An example would be:
In order to argue that murder is wrong by saying "It is terrible to end a human life" the reader must first value a human life. If they do not value a human life your entire argument will have no impact.

C- Grounds
This is a sub argument to provide value to the warrant. It is also the claim in the new argument. If you know that your warrant is not a common belief you must first attempt to establish the value of that warrant in order to present an argument of any value. An example would be:
In order to argue that abortion is wrong because "A fertilized egg counts as a human life and taking a human life is wrong" the reader must first agree that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.
If this warrant is not accepted the grounds would be an argument to establish that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.

So to summarize you can see the basic argument format and how it chains into sub arguments.

Claim- Pollution is bad
Warrant- It damages the environment
Grounds / Sub argument claim- Damage to the environment hurts your health
--------------Sub argument warrant- Your health is important
--------------Sub argument grounds / Sub argument claim- Worse health means a shorter life
----------------------------------------------Sub argument warrant- A shorter life means less time to do the things you enjoy
----------------------------------------------Sub argument grounds- Blah blah blah

And so on.

Being able to identify these factors allows you to effectively argue. Without recognizing this pattern you will end up having frustrating discussions that get nowhere; and if you have not been using this pattern it’s probably why nobody takes you seriously in day chat. If you find that you are unable to use it when pushing a scum read then chances are that you do not have a real read.
The piratical application of this is that you need to identify common ground with your readers when presenting an argument. When interacting with another players argument you need to force them to establish a claim and a warrant for their point to have value. If they do not you have to either draw out why their argument holds no value, agree to disagree and move away to a new topic that will be productive.

Spoiler : 2. Functions : Click to show



A- Appeals

Logos- Appeal to Logic "Steel is stronger than iron, so for a stronger frame we should use steel"
Pathos- Appeal to Emotion "Your donation of only 5$ a year can save the lives of 20 poor starving children"
Ethos- Appeal to Credibility "As a doctor, I am qualified to tell you that this course of treatment will likely generate the best results."

These are functions that you would use in your warrant and grounds. Any large argument will use multiple of these functions. To be effective stick to Logos as much as possible and use Ethos by explaining exactly why your reasoning is correct. Use logical arguments to show that a player is scum and only appeal to credibility by explaining the scum hunting technique you are using to logically point out that the player could be scum. If you try to argue about how good you are it just turns into a pissing contest.

B- Fallacy's

By learning to recognize these patterns you can find some slips and identify fake arguments. Almost every complex argument will have some level of fallacy in it; this is because at some point in almost every argument there is a logic jump. For that reason do not assume just because an argument contains a bit of fallacy that it is invalid. I will cover a few of the most common ones but to understand them at a greater level I strongly recommend watching This Series. There is 3 times as many outlined in this series.
The value in understanding this as town is that it allows you to recognize players ‘painting’ a target a scummy as opposed to scum hunting. This counters scums ability to act as a power wolf and lead mislynches against the town, as well as provides a potential alignment tells.
The value in understanding this as scum is that it gives you an idea of methods to avoid in order to gain more town cred and avoid slips. It can also provide you with more ways to manipulate players who do not understand these methods.

Straw Man- Setting up a weak version of the opponents argument in order to discredit it
Red Herring- This is when someone draws the argument into a tangent proving that the tangent is correct and insinuating that it either proves their point or draws away from the original point.
False Dichotomy- This is when a player trys to force you into choosing between 1 of 2 choices. Usually with one of them being obviously ridiculous
Slippery Slope- Claiming that A will start a chain reaction leading to B then C then D and D has a dire consequence
Ad Hominem- This is when a player attacks a person in order to discredit their argument as opposed to addressing the argument
Hasty Generalization- This is basically stereotypes.
Fallacy of Accident- This is usually when someone trys to cover a specific situation by citing a general rule when the situation is an exception to the rule
Missing the point- The premises of the argument does not support the conclusion.
Post Hoc- Assuming because B came after A, A caused B
Weak Analogy-An analogy is not strong enough to support a conclusion
Begging the Question- This is basically circular reasoning
Appeal to Pitty- Forcing someone to feel sorry to accept a conclusion
Appeal to Ignorance- If it can not be proven it must be false; or If it can not be disproved it must be true
Appeal to Unqualified Authority- Adding Ethos to an argument from a bias or unqualified source.

C- Tone
Different tones have different implications. Learning to read and use these will increase your ability to understand and manipulate chat. You should keep in mind that this type of reading cannot be used without an understanding of the players posting style and their perspective. If you try to use these independent of that analysis you can easily screw yourself.

Confidence and Doubt:
When you see a player who expresses total certainty recognize that it could reflect hidden information. Absolute certainty is more often a tone expressed by scum unless it is supported by reasoning that backs up this level of certainty. Keep in mind that certainty reflects confidence but confidence does not reflect certainty. Its a grey line you have to analyze.
Team Scum show a gap between their level of confidence and the level of certainty that should be reflected by their reasoning. This is because team scum already know who the scum team is and have to fake their reads on players forcing them to guess at exactly how confident they should be about a read. You can often find this game is the largest when town reading a player because many scum players put less thought into town reading a slot than they would to scum reading a player.
When you see a player express doubt on what should be absolutely certain it can reflect deception. A good example of this is when scum claims a fake night action. A town player would know without doubt that they received the night action. Scum tend to express the read a little more softly leaving doubt in the situation.
When a team scum gets pressured with a night peek they often express doubt. Instead of questioning the players motivations they immediately move to get town to question the read by referencing framer or witch possibilities. This especially true in setups where there is little or no opposing scum at play because they pretty much know the slot scum reading them is town. Their response is focused from that perspective. Town may also do this if they town read the slot that is scum reading them but they are more likely to question the players alignment because they know they are town and the subconscious assumption is that a player pushing them may be scum.
As scum you can spread doubt to create a bias against future issues. For example, you could take time to discredit night actions which will give your team mates an advantage down the road when faced with a night action claim by seeding the thought in the minds of the players ahead of time. This can backfire if your reasoning is poor.

Aggressive / Passive Behavior:
Useful for identifying a players level of certainty and doubt. If you want to identify how certain a player is about an issue aggressively cast doubt and challenge the reasoning behind a belief. You can even not direct the comment at him and instead address the player base to see if he comes out to address the issue. Keep in mind that players natural level of aggression when using this.
Anger as a form of aggression is a common ‘go to’ response for players that deflect other emotions into anger as a defensive mechanism. Usually as a result to frustration or hitting a subject the player does not want to talk about when a reaction to a push.
Use aggression to focus attention on a specific issue or to distract from something. If some townie trys to crumb something and does a shit job of it you can blow up about some issue and it will draw focus away from it.
As scum you can use aggression to beguile reads. Its much more of an Ethos appeal than anything else and with that in mind you can effectively replace logic with emotion and push targets doubt. This is especially true if you are able to identify players who try hard to appear ‘skilled’ as that it will force them to choose between saving face and being honest.
You can often deflect aggression from players pushing on you if you respond with passive behavior.

Apathy:
This can be an indicator when it is in contrast with a player who is dedicated unless intentionally expressed. Mostly telling when associated with reads or the death of a player. Finding when a slot unintentionally expresses apathy can be very useful.
As scum you can use apathy to offset pushes. Simply responding to a push on you by expressing that you do not care how they read you dodges responding and leaves them with nothing to read.
As either alignment you can use apathy to discredit focus. If a player pushes a subject simply pushing that you do not care about the results of the push carries weight. I have sometimes used this to avoid pressure on a subject I didn’t want to talk about.

Spoiler : 3- Application of Communication : Click to show

If you understand exactly how to communicate and understand others communication the question exactly what should you communicate and why? I am going to totally ignore some of the basics and jump to some applications that are extremely useful but underused. Keep in mind that you still have to understand the players and their perspectives to effectively use these.

Insulating a town read from a scum night kill- If you are able to pick up that Player X is probably a Doctor there are 2 ways to play it out. You can try to pull attention off the slot or you can scum read the slot. From the scum perspective (See perspectives in part two) it makes sense for scum to target players they think they cannot lynch. By scum reading the slot you can provide incisive for scum to leave the slot alive.

Town read a slot as a poke to see if it is scum- This is something that catches many scum off guard. By town reading them with flawed reasoning you can watch their reaction which is usually much less filtered than if you scum read them. Be careful not to use this on players that may be town and desperate for pressure relief. This works particularly well on slots that are under pressure even if you just push a conversation change. An innocent man will push to stay on the subject of his guilt to clear himself while a guilty man will gratefully accept a change of subject to avoid getting caught.

Scum read a slot to judge reaction of another player with weak reasoning- Sometimes you can identify a scum trying to just ‘paint’ a target as scummy as opposed analyzing to identifying their alignment. If you present flawed reasoning and push for them to give feedback on your reasoning you may catch them working to justify your bad reasoning.

Aggressively address the town opposing a belief you hold to be true to identify who thinks the same as you- If done correctly you can end up identifying exactly which players are willing to confidently defend that point.

In general you should take the time to consider what you are pushing and why. What are other people pushing and why? If you are struggling to convey a message cut back to the basics. Find common ground and build on it. If you are not sure what to post and need content to analyze create that content. Gambits do not have to be hard 'I have this feedback' nonsene that beguiles town. They can be soft and simple plays.

Spoiler : Case Examples : Click to show
This is going to be delayed until the next to sections are done. When trying to write it up I found it impossible to avoid addressing strategy and perspective


Nothing in Mafia is independently a 'scum tell' until you break into mechanical analysis which will be covered in a later guide. I believe that this will be viewed as the "Least useful" portion of the guide I am working on but I will also argue that it is the most important. Until you are able to effectively communicate and identify other players communication you are crippled in your ability to play regardless of how good you are at identifying scum.

[Frog]

You're more likely town than not. Less show more umph.

What do you mean?

I'm expecting a solid FOS from you after so much pazzaz.

[Frog]

Lel - in the games of.. every time - Ika is an easy mislynch because of his reluctance to play ser iously. It's a fact of life. You're welcome for insight.

[Frog]

It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around.

I already said this, and I agree.

I don't like it when people say the 'easy push' is a thorough case that no-one is following, especially when the same people are saying we should ignore reads, have no-one with high posts question each other, and go exclusively after low posters.

This is gross

[Tangrowth]

@Golden-constant excuses is because, besides the content I didn't like that I pointed out, he only was telling us his schedule and why he couldn't be here, I never doubted his RL, let me give you an example:

In a MS game offsite (ika-this is 188), there was a player named Ozgin. He was scum in that game. His first few posts were exactly like MP's-giving out his exact schedule of when he could post or not and continuing to do that. So this is why I am wary of it.

I was trying to get him to stop taking the time to do that, but to take the time to post content, when he could come back and do so.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to do then.

I've been taking the time to post content whenever I'm here for longer than 2 seconds, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I knew I would be incredibly busy yesterday; I warned you all of it. It's something I do in every game regardless of alignment. If you don't take my word on that, then fine, but one comparison to some other player in some other specific circumstance does not mean I'm the same alignment.

The way I take this is, SW feels you could have used the time telling us you weren't going to be around to make reads.

Personally, I know that you (and I, as well) have a need to tell people when we won't be around since we are such high posters that people suspect us merely for being quieter, even when we have rl reasons for it. But, I can see why silverwolf might not have realised there is legitimate reason why you need to do this. This post made me feel a lot better about her original vote for you.

I don't disagree, I can fathom her thought process with respect to that early vote as well. It doesn't mean she's right about me though (hint: she isn't).

Minorly convinced TBH.

Telll meHOW you are town in your uniq ue way please. preferably 1 minute to go.

Okay, sure.

I am town because that is what I randed at the start of the game. I have been demonstrating that I am town via the following ways:

1) I have been hunting for mafia in literally every other player of this game to the best of my ability, and will continue to do so. (FYI a new rainbow list is upcoming, after I perform some reevaluation.)

2) Although I will aggressively pursue someone I think is mafia, I am also always willing to reevaluate my suspicions as well as work in the town's best interests. I will be clear as possible with regards to my suspicions, and pursue them, but I feel it is best when players coordinate and collaborate as well. I've seen too many towns collapse because they distrusted each other and never gave each other a chance.

3) Effort. I can try all I want to replicate this as mafia, and my post count isn't indicative of my alignment, but when push comes to shove town MP exudes effort in a way that mafia MP cannot match. So far, given my RL constraints, I think I've demonstrated this.

[Tangrowth]

AHHH FML - Personal situations might get heavy this week after tonight beyond. Can town please steamroll? Please? focuson the 4 low posters i suggested plox.

Hope everything is OK.

[Frog]

@Golden-constant excuses is because, besides the content I didn't like that I pointed out, he only was telling us his schedule and why he couldn't be here, I never doubted his RL, let me give you an example:

In a MS game offsite (ika-this is 188), there was a player named Ozgin. He was scum in that game. His first few posts were exactly like MP's-giving out his exact schedule of when he could post or not and continuing to do that. So this is why I am wary of it.

I was trying to get him to stop taking the time to do that, but to take the time to post content, when he could come back and do so.

If this doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to do then.

I've been taking the time to post content whenever I'm here for longer than 2 seconds, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I knew I would be incredibly busy yesterday; I warned you all of it. It's something I do in every game regardless of alignment. If you don't take my word on that, then fine, but one comparison to some other player in some other specific circumstance does not mean I'm the same alignment.

The way I take this is, SW feels you could have used the time telling us you weren't going to be around to make reads.

Personally, I know that you (and I, as well) have a need to tell people when we won't be around since we are such high posters that people suspect us merely for being quieter, even when we have rl reasons for it. But, I can see why silverwolf might not have realised there is legitimate reason why you need to do this. This post made me feel a lot better about her original vote for you.

I don't disagree, I can fathom her thought process with respect to that early vote as well. It doesn't mean she's right about me though (hint: she isn't).

Minorly convinced TBH.

Telll meHOW you are town in your uniq ue way please. preferably 1 minute to go.

Okay, sure.

I am town because that is what I randed at the start of the game. I have been demonstrating that I am town via the following ways:

1) I have been hunting for mafia in literally every other player of this game to the best of my ability, and will continue to do so. (FYI a new rainbow list is upcoming, after I perform some reevaluation.)

2) Although I will aggressively pursue someone I think is mafia, I am also always willing to reevaluate my suspicions as well as work in the town's best interests. I will be clear as possible with regards to my suspicions, and pursue them, but I feel it is best when players coordinate and collaborate as well. I've seen too many towns collapse because they distrusted each other and never gave each other a chance.

3) Effort. I can try all I want to replicate this as mafia, and my post count isn't indicative of my alignment, but when push comes to shove town MP exudes effort in a way that mafia MP cannot match. So far, given my RL constraints, I think I've demonstrated this.

Meh - coordinated defense. I was expecting a random "FU" gif tbh. You play serious which is awesome. You're a high level player which is good to know for here on out.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Anyway, thoughts and stuff after catching up.

Suspicious of MP. I did not find his push on Ika convincing at all, and I found it to be an easy push at the time. He is more so defending why it's reasonable for him to suspect Ika than actually accounting for why Ika is scum. At least that is what I see. There's also other things that makes little sense to me (see my catch up with questions and stuff).

VOTE MOVING PICTURES

Noting also that he is softly defending Golden. Don't know what this says about Golden, he may be town if MP is scum, but I'm not sure.

So in the Silver and Ika vs MP and Golden think, I'm most inclined to think MP as scum. Golden I'm not sure of, sometimes I think town and then something happens and I'm doubting again. Silver seems very town to me. Lol me if I'm wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ika does seem town to me, he reads fearless town, but less sure of this read as there is not so much to go on here.

---

I really really really want to slap PSI and Soneji with a cod right now. They need to get into this game right meow. For reals.

---

Conflicted on sig. He did look a lot better last he posted, but there's not that much to go on.

As for the case on Zebra, I don't know her. The case is reasonable, and she could be scum. What makes me doubt is my doubt about some of the people advocating her lynch.

Sloonei is apparently having time contrains. That sucks, cause it doesn't make it easier to read him. Not a town read for me right now, but can't really say he is scum either.

I want Marco to post more thoughts on players and less mechanic/strategic analysis. Still reads town.

^I could say the same for Frog, but you know, Frogs be jumping and I'm just going to let them.

Btw, I skipped a lot of the talk about the lurker lynch plan, and all that. Not interested. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And I think I'll actually attempt do a rainbow list, cause they are pretty. But I rarely agree with myself once they are posted. I'm all

I don't understand this double standard. Literally no one in this thread agrees with me about ika, so yes, I am spending more time explaining and defending my view than I am explaining why I think he's scum. I already explained in full and pointed to posts why I was mafia reading him, and his continued insistence to only throw out gut reads is infuriating. Apparently I'm not accustomed to his meta even though I've seen it in action, because I feel like I'm playing a different game than everyone else. It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around. It's Day fucking 1, I explained precisely why I thought ika was scum. No one agrees with me.

lel - TBH im bedazzled - Ika and/or silverwolf w ith abit of elbow grease is a simple lynch whether town or scum. But it's a weak player push. I've been opposing it precisely because of that.

Rest assured - I WILL resolve multiple players tomorrow

I'd prefer if we coordinated amongst the 4 I suggested for now.

I must just have different experience so far with ika and Silverwolf than you have had.

In Turf Wars, their first game here, ika was mafia and Silverwolf was town. ika made it until Day 6 until he was lynched; Silverwolf was then NKed that Night. I highly doubt she was going to be mislynched.

In E.S.T., their second game here, both ika and Silverwolf were town. Silverwolf was NKed Night 2, again because she was a largely consensus town read. ika made it to endgame without dying.

In neither game did ika show any signs of being an "easy mislynch"; if anything, he lasted longer than I otherwise thought he would considering his playstyle.

At some point I'll ISO the 4 you mentioned. You haven't changed your mind on those, yeah?

[Tangrowth]

Meh - o just realized majjority of you (certainly not all of you) require basic argumentation.

Spoiler: show

I feel like we have a ton of new players coming into the game but the level of player improvement is very low. It is my hope that this is simply because players don't really know where to start. Answering the question "How do you get better" is a tough one to tackle. For that reason I decided to make a few guides that should provide players with tools to improve their play. This guide will cover communication, perspective, and strategy. Perspective and strategy portions will be posted later. If your idea of scum hunting is learning that 'scum do this' then hunting for that you will never be successful. To really grow as a player you need to understand these 3 factors and analyze things independently for each situation and player. A good portion of this guide is some very basic shit you probably learned in grade school but I am focusing on it because it is the foundation that will determine how effective you could be in the game.

I. Communication

It is absolutely critical to be able to convey information to others in a way that they will understand, accept, and push your win condition forward. It is equally critical to understand exactly what other players are communicating and 'why'. If you are town you will be able to effectively convey your reads, identify scummy posts and prevent them from mislynching you. If you are scum you will be able to mislynch the town, keep them off balance, and prevent slipping. If these are things you want to improve on this section should greatly help.

This portion is focused on communication. There are aspects of scum hunting in it but that is something that will be covered in mcuh more detail as I get into Perspective and Strategy. If you would like to contribute to improve this guide or contribute to the other portions let me know.

Spoiler : 1. Basic parts of an argument : Click to show


A- Claim

The Claim is the point you are trying to make. This is what you are trying to persuade your reader to accept.

B- Warrant
This is the common belief you are using to pivot your audience into accepting your argument. An example would be:
In order to argue that murder is wrong by saying "It is terrible to end a human life" the reader must first value a human life. If they do not value a human life your entire argument will have no impact.

C- Grounds
This is a sub argument to provide value to the warrant. It is also the claim in the new argument. If you know that your warrant is not a common belief you must first attempt to establish the value of that warrant in order to present an argument of any value. An example would be:
In order to argue that abortion is wrong because "A fertilized egg counts as a human life and taking a human life is wrong" the reader must first agree that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.
If this warrant is not accepted the grounds would be an argument to establish that a fertilized egg counts as a human life.

So to summarize you can see the basic argument format and how it chains into sub arguments.

Claim- Pollution is bad
Warrant- It damages the environment
Grounds / Sub argument claim- Damage to the environment hurts your health
--------------Sub argument warrant- Your health is important
--------------Sub argument grounds / Sub argument claim- Worse health means a shorter life
----------------------------------------------Sub argument warrant- A shorter life means less time to do the things you enjoy
----------------------------------------------Sub argument grounds- Blah blah blah

And so on.

Being able to identify these factors allows you to effectively argue. Without recognizing this pattern you will end up having frustrating discussions that get nowhere; and if you have not been using this pattern it’s probably why nobody takes you seriously in day chat. If you find that you are unable to use it when pushing a scum read then chances are that you do not have a real read.
The piratical application of this is that you need to identify common ground with your readers when presenting an argument. When interacting with another players argument you need to force them to establish a claim and a warrant for their point to have value. If they do not you have to either draw out why their argument holds no value, agree to disagree and move away to a new topic that will be productive.

Spoiler : 2. Functions : Click to show



A- Appeals

Logos- Appeal to Logic "Steel is stronger than iron, so for a stronger frame we should use steel"
Pathos- Appeal to Emotion "Your donation of only 5$ a year can save the lives of 20 poor starving children"
Ethos- Appeal to Credibility "As a doctor, I am qualified to tell you that this course of treatment will likely generate the best results."

These are functions that you would use in your warrant and grounds. Any large argument will use multiple of these functions. To be effective stick to Logos as much as possible and use Ethos by explaining exactly why your reasoning is correct. Use logical arguments to show that a player is scum and only appeal to credibility by explaining the scum hunting technique you are using to logically point out that the player could be scum. If you try to argue about how good you are it just turns into a pissing contest.

B- Fallacy's

By learning to recognize these patterns you can find some slips and identify fake arguments. Almost every complex argument will have some level of fallacy in it; this is because at some point in almost every argument there is a logic jump. For that reason do not assume just because an argument contains a bit of fallacy that it is invalid. I will cover a few of the most common ones but to understand them at a greater level I strongly recommend watching This Series. There is 3 times as many outlined in this series.
The value in understanding this as town is that it allows you to recognize players ‘painting’ a target a scummy as opposed to scum hunting. This counters scums ability to act as a power wolf and lead mislynches against the town, as well as provides a potential alignment tells.
The value in understanding this as scum is that it gives you an idea of methods to avoid in order to gain more town cred and avoid slips. It can also provide you with more ways to manipulate players who do not understand these methods.

Straw Man- Setting up a weak version of the opponents argument in order to discredit it
Red Herring- This is when someone draws the argument into a tangent proving that the tangent is correct and insinuating that it either proves their point or draws away from the original point.
False Dichotomy- This is when a player trys to force you into choosing between 1 of 2 choices. Usually with one of them being obviously ridiculous
Slippery Slope- Claiming that A will start a chain reaction leading to B then C then D and D has a dire consequence
Ad Hominem- This is when a player attacks a person in order to discredit their argument as opposed to addressing the argument
Hasty Generalization- This is basically stereotypes.
Fallacy of Accident- This is usually when someone trys to cover a specific situation by citing a general rule when the situation is an exception to the rule
Missing the point- The premises of the argument does not support the conclusion.
Post Hoc- Assuming because B came after A, A caused B
Weak Analogy-An analogy is not strong enough to support a conclusion
Begging the Question- This is basically circular reasoning
Appeal to Pitty- Forcing someone to feel sorry to accept a conclusion
Appeal to Ignorance- If it can not be proven it must be false; or If it can not be disproved it must be true
Appeal to Unqualified Authority- Adding Ethos to an argument from a bias or unqualified source.

C- Tone
Different tones have different implications. Learning to read and use these will increase your ability to understand and manipulate chat. You should keep in mind that this type of reading cannot be used without an understanding of the players posting style and their perspective. If you try to use these independent of that analysis you can easily screw yourself.

Confidence and Doubt:
When you see a player who expresses total certainty recognize that it could reflect hidden information. Absolute certainty is more often a tone expressed by scum unless it is supported by reasoning that backs up this level of certainty. Keep in mind that certainty reflects confidence but confidence does not reflect certainty. Its a grey line you have to analyze.
Team Scum show a gap between their level of confidence and the level of certainty that should be reflected by their reasoning. This is because team scum already know who the scum team is and have to fake their reads on players forcing them to guess at exactly how confident they should be about a read. You can often find this game is the largest when town reading a player because many scum players put less thought into town reading a slot than they would to scum reading a player.
When you see a player express doubt on what should be absolutely certain it can reflect deception. A good example of this is when scum claims a fake night action. A town player would know without doubt that they received the night action. Scum tend to express the read a little more softly leaving doubt in the situation.
When a team scum gets pressured with a night peek they often express doubt. Instead of questioning the players motivations they immediately move to get town to question the read by referencing framer or witch possibilities. This especially true in setups where there is little or no opposing scum at play because they pretty much know the slot scum reading them is town. Their response is focused from that perspective. Town may also do this if they town read the slot that is scum reading them but they are more likely to question the players alignment because they know they are town and the subconscious assumption is that a player pushing them may be scum.
As scum you can spread doubt to create a bias against future issues. For example, you could take time to discredit night actions which will give your team mates an advantage down the road when faced with a night action claim by seeding the thought in the minds of the players ahead of time. This can backfire if your reasoning is poor.

Aggressive / Passive Behavior:
Useful for identifying a players level of certainty and doubt. If you want to identify how certain a player is about an issue aggressively cast doubt and challenge the reasoning behind a belief. You can even not direct the comment at him and instead address the player base to see if he comes out to address the issue. Keep in mind that players natural level of aggression when using this.
Anger as a form of aggression is a common ‘go to’ response for players that deflect other emotions into anger as a defensive mechanism. Usually as a result to frustration or hitting a subject the player does not want to talk about when a reaction to a push.
Use aggression to focus attention on a specific issue or to distract from something. If some townie trys to crumb something and does a shit job of it you can blow up about some issue and it will draw focus away from it.
As scum you can use aggression to beguile reads. Its much more of an Ethos appeal than anything else and with that in mind you can effectively replace logic with emotion and push targets doubt. This is especially true if you are able to identify players who try hard to appear ‘skilled’ as that it will force them to choose between saving face and being honest.
You can often deflect aggression from players pushing on you if you respond with passive behavior.

Apathy:
This can be an indicator when it is in contrast with a player who is dedicated unless intentionally expressed. Mostly telling when associated with reads or the death of a player. Finding when a slot unintentionally expresses apathy can be very useful.
As scum you can use apathy to offset pushes. Simply responding to a push on you by expressing that you do not care how they read you dodges responding and leaves them with nothing to read.
As either alignment you can use apathy to discredit focus. If a player pushes a subject simply pushing that you do not care about the results of the push carries weight. I have sometimes used this to avoid pressure on a subject I didn’t want to talk about.

Spoiler : 3- Application of Communication : Click to show

If you understand exactly how to communicate and understand others communication the question exactly what should you communicate and why? I am going to totally ignore some of the basics and jump to some applications that are extremely useful but underused. Keep in mind that you still have to understand the players and their perspectives to effectively use these.

Insulating a town read from a scum night kill- If you are able to pick up that Player X is probably a Doctor there are 2 ways to play it out. You can try to pull attention off the slot or you can scum read the slot. From the scum perspective (See perspectives in part two) it makes sense for scum to target players they think they cannot lynch. By scum reading the slot you can provide incisive for scum to leave the slot alive.

Town read a slot as a poke to see if it is scum- This is something that catches many scum off guard. By town reading them with flawed reasoning you can watch their reaction which is usually much less filtered than if you scum read them. Be careful not to use this on players that may be town and desperate for pressure relief. This works particularly well on slots that are under pressure even if you just push a conversation change. An innocent man will push to stay on the subject of his guilt to clear himself while a guilty man will gratefully accept a change of subject to avoid getting caught.

Scum read a slot to judge reaction of another player with weak reasoning- Sometimes you can identify a scum trying to just ‘paint’ a target as scummy as opposed analyzing to identifying their alignment. If you present flawed reasoning and push for them to give feedback on your reasoning you may catch them working to justify your bad reasoning.

Aggressively address the town opposing a belief you hold to be true to identify who thinks the same as you- If done correctly you can end up identifying exactly which players are willing to confidently defend that point.

In general you should take the time to consider what you are pushing and why. What are other people pushing and why? If you are struggling to convey a message cut back to the basics. Find common ground and build on it. If you are not sure what to post and need content to analyze create that content. Gambits do not have to be hard 'I have this feedback' nonsene that beguiles town. They can be soft and simple plays.

Spoiler : Case Examples : Click to show
This is going to be delayed until the next to sections are done. When trying to write it up I found it impossible to avoid addressing strategy and perspective


Nothing in Mafia is independently a 'scum tell' until you break into mechanical analysis which will be covered in a later guide. I believe that this will be viewed as the "Least useful" portion of the guide I am working on but I will also argue that it is the most important. Until you are able to effectively communicate and identify other players communication you are crippled in your ability to play regardless of how good you are at identifying scum.

What is this from?

[Tangrowth]

You're more likely town than not. Less show more umph.

What do you mean?

I'm expecting a solid FOS from you after so much pazzaz.

What's FOS? Lol.

[Tangrowth]

Lel - in the games of.. every time - Ika is an easy mislynch because of his reluctance to play ser iously. It's a fact of life. You're welcome for insight.

I'm willing to take a fair step back and reevaluate him, since it's clear that his meta is well established.

My thing with ika is that I saw a clear difference between how he played in Turf Wars and E.S.T., and meta-wise his play looks more similar to the former. Add to that fact I found various posts of his questionable, and yeah.

I'll see if I have time to ISO him and revisit those quotes I found initially suspicious to see how I still feel now. I'd really like to do that.

[Tangrowth]

It's not an easy push. That's absurd. An easy push would have been what Frog is doing -- for the people who aren't around.

I already said this, and I agree.

I don't like it when people say the 'easy push' is a thorough case that no-one is following, especially when the same people are saying we should ignore reads, have no-one with high posts question each other, and go exclusively after low posters.

This is gross

Culture clash at its finest.