Mountain Mafia [END]

[Sloonei]

So then is your reasoning for not necessarily having all the facts correct that it stirs the pot regardless and the end justifies the means? @Sloonei

I'll never have all the facts about a game that I'm playing in, and the best that we can do is make the most of what is observable to us. The more that is observable, the stronger our foundation will be, so I like to make people talk. I like to think that I'm an avid pot stirrer, and my means are in the interest of solving the game, so I certainly feel justified in prodding people.
How do you feel about my vote being on you right now?

[Epignosis]

trusting people without factual backup is unnatural. it's an aberration. mafia play with facts from the start so it's easier

let's put LC's case aside for a sec, why Cbob? why Mesk?

I didn't say I trusted them.

I already talked about colonialbob and Mesk.

So you don't think they're good necessarily... you just said you didn't think you'd vote for them.

In that post you did imply you trusted Mesk at least a little bit more because she hadn't apparently read the roles, do you have anything to add to that?

Correct.

As I said, Mesk's response to being big or little looked guileless, as though she didn't get a PM saying anything about little mountains. It's a point in her favor- that's all.

[Kylemii]

So then is your reasoning for not necessarily having all the facts correct that it stirs the pot regardless and the end justifies the means? Sloonei

I'll never have all the facts about a game that I'm playing in, and the best that we can do is make the most of what is observable to us. The more that is observable, the stronger our foundation will be, so I like to make people talk. I like to think that I'm an avid pot stirrer, and my means are in the interest of solving the game, so I certainly feel justified in prodding people.
How do you feel about my vote being on you right now?

You had access to more facts about the pirate game than anyone did, is the thing, depending on how closely you followed the game. Still I respect your answer.

I'm.... Honestly not bothered by it. I get early votes in a lot of games I'm in, and it usually leads to me not getting night killed and having more time to figure out who the mafia is.

[Jackofhearts2005]

but you didn't get lynched. I saw you making things happen. I don't see that here yet.

whether or not I got lynch is irrelevant, the relevant part is that you should remember how that game went.

name one thing that i made happen during the first day of the pirates game. I asked questions about dogs and I think I cobbled together a read list at some point because I had 3 hours without anything better to do, bcus it was a small game filled with players I'd never met.

My most active decision was maintaining a tied vote on MP late in the day phase

I don't want to discuss another game any further in this thread. I just want you to continue sharing the thoughts that you have about this game.

Kinda unfair to say you suspect someone because of a difference in Game A and Game B, then say you don't want to discuss Game A anymore, no?

[Long Con]

As for the cbob and mesk no-vote posts... they're empty filler. Neither of them are in any way real or substantial gameplay. There was nothing about mesk's "dirt" comment that should lead to any alignment decisions. IF you really feel the need to read into it, it indicates a general ignorance or the game structure, which doesn't show as good or bad. And I don't feel like it was even that. Does anyone disagree with this?

And the Rocket Man lyrics response is equally devoid of value. So Epi would have spared his vote for any player who acknowledged his Elton John joke. Why? It doesn't even plant a seed that could grow into a suspicion, it doesn't put anyone on the spot, the only effect is to make cbob slightly more comfortable.

[Quin]

Mm. I thought I had a valid point but it got skipped over in Epi's catch up. I've realised my error but I already did the hyperlink and everything, so a response would be nice.

Uh, you pick two Civs and buddy them so they trust you and don't lynch you. Long game benefit: survival, and more likely to lynch Civs along the way. You intimidate Sloonei out of coming after you. Benefit: One less Civ coming after you; survival; more likely to lynch a Civ along the way.

Wait a minute.

How does Long Con know Mesk, coolonialbob, and Sloonei are civilians?

A valid question.

[Quin]

As for the cbob and mesk no-vote posts... they're empty filler. Neither of them are in any way real or substantial gameplay. There was nothing about mesk's "dirt" comment that should lead to any alignment decisions. IF you really feel the need to read into it, it indicates a general ignorance or the game structure, which doesn't show as good or bad. And I don't feel like it was even that. Does anyone disagree with this?

And the Rocket Man lyrics response is equally devoid of value. So Epi would have spared his vote for any player who acknowledged his Elton John joke. Why? It doesn't even plant a seed that could grow into a suspicion, it doesn't put anyone on the spot, the only effect is to make cbob slightly more comfortable.

It wouldn't be the first time I've seen people earn a free pass for nothing. Disagree with that?

[sprityo]

As for the cbob and mesk no-vote posts... they're empty filler. Neither of them are in any way real or substantial gameplay. There was nothing about mesk's "dirt" comment that should lead to any alignment decisions. IF you really feel the need to read into it, it indicates a general ignorance or the game structure, which doesn't show as good or bad. And I don't feel like it was even that. Does anyone disagree with this?

And the Rocket Man lyrics response is equally devoid of value. So Epi would have spared his vote for any player who acknowledged his Elton John joke. Why? It doesn't even plant a seed that could grow into a suspicion, it doesn't put anyone on the spot, the only effect is to make cbob slightly more comfortable.

So cut and dry, what does this tie back to? What are you trying to say?

[Kylemii]

I just want to submit as a data point that the new Pokémon game released 3 days ago and according to the in game time log I've played it for almost 35 hours, so that may be an explanation for my being less active

[Quin]

He's buddying them, and then intimidating you out of an adversarial position. He's setting up a long game. That's not what Civ Epignosis cares to do.

This again, about what a "civilian Epignosis" cares to do. You really should write a book about me, since you're such an expert.

Saying I won't vote someone Day 1 for catching my Elton John reference is not "setting up a long game."

Finding a reason to believe Mesk is civilian and in the next hour reevaluating that reason is, again, not "setting up a long game."

Intimidating Sloonei (if that's what you want to call it, since I don't believe Sloonei can be intimidated in Mafia, and even if he could, what would I have to gain by intimidating him if I could just kill him Night 1?) is not "setting up a long game."

You are implying that "setting up a long game" is something I, as mafia, would do on Day 1. That is mistaken. The fact is I don't bother with long term planning Day 1 when I am bad. It's antithetical to success in most cases, because to be good at being bad, one must be flexible and able to dance. And I am a fine dancer.

Where are you reevaluating your Mesk read here, Epi?

is a civilian good here? I'm pretty sure someone told me a civilian is scum... I am good, fear me!

Who told you a civilian is "scum?"

And even if someone did, why would you believe it?

i think this is something someone said in a discord chat when i first joined, or one of the nubs who played in my game off site said something about it before this game started

i don't know if i believe it, hence why i am asking...

[Jackofhearts2005]

Epi, do you agree with kyle's assessment that you were attacking LC with hyperbole and strawmen?

No.

LC explicitly called cb, Mesk, and Sloonei civilians. There was no consideration given that I could be "buddying" a teammate, as JoH suggested (however the hell one does that).

He also has taken anything I have said or done and says I am "setting up a long game" even though I have never before in my four years of playing Mafia done that Day 1. Instead of considering angles in which my words and actions indicate a civilian, he presses on with his unfounded, circular nonsense.

There is no strawman fallacy or hyperbole, and even if there is, so what?

I'm going to explain a thing you're pretending to not understand one time out of the goodness of my heart. I won't continue to do so because it is tiring.

LC posts that you are bad and you are buddying Bob and Mesk. The implication is that since scum doesn't buddy teammates, if LC is correct in his suspicions, Bob and Mesk would by definition be town.

LC is not claiming to have figured out Mesk or Bob's alignments outside of this, which is obvious.

I am not claiming that scum buddying a teammate is a thing, which is also obvious.

No more straw men. Townies don't gain anything from willfully pretending not to understand accusations.

[sprityo]

I think jack answered my question, thanks jack

[nutella]

okay this has turned into nonsensical arguments that are getting us nowhere. remind me to never again sign up for a game with both Epi and LC because it just always turns into this and we never make progress

[Marmot]

It's 4:54 in futureland, folks.

A.M.

That's almost an alpine start!

Would appreciate ISO links, since they're hard to do manually from my phone!

(Day 1 ISOs, what have I become)

ISO links have been added. Thanks for the reminder.

[Kylemii]

okay this has turned into nonsensical arguments that are getting us nowhere. remind me to never again sign up for a game with both Epi and LC because it just always turns into this and we never make progress

Nutella, does this mean you think LC v Epi is a goose chase?

[Jackofhearts2005]

okay this has turned into nonsensical arguments that are getting us nowhere. remind me to never again sign up for a game with both Epi and LC because it just always turns into this and we never make progress

Gth reads on LC and Epi?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Jinx! You owe me a coke, Kyle.

[Quin]

I'm with Sloonei (and LC, wow, what a surprise, it's el clásico again and everything is predictable and nothing hurts)

Are you more inclined toward my hesitance or LC's confidence?

The former, I guess. Mostly I agree with the sentiments you've expressed about why Quin's reasoning is fine for day 1, and probably enough to join Quin and LC in an epi vote if I don't get anything better for a day 1 reason

What is Quin's reasoning?

Here is everything Quin has said about me:

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

what does this sentence mean?

do you want other people to tell you why you are going to vote for mr gnosis?

i'd like that very much thank you

I'm better at being scum than that Sloonei.

Can you provide proof of this?

idk but this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that I'm a better mafia than Epignosis.

I didn't challenge Sloonei's response to my question, so I can understand anyone assuming that my thoughts were the same as his.

[Quin]

okay this has turned into nonsensical arguments that are getting us nowhere. remind me to never again sign up for a game with both Epi and LC because it just always turns into this and we never make progress

Let's make some progress. What do you think about Sloonei?

[Quin]

Quin/Sloonei not w/w imo.

y

[Quin]

It's 4:54 in futureland, folks.

A.M.

That's almost an alpine start!

Would appreciate ISO links, since they're hard to do manually from my phone!

(Day 1 ISOs, what have I become)

ISO links have been added. Thanks for the reminder.

my hero <3

[Sloonei]

but you didn't get lynched. I saw you making things happen. I don't see that here yet.

whether or not I got lynch is irrelevant, the relevant part is that you should remember how that game went.

name one thing that i made happen during the first day of the pirates game. I asked questions about dogs and I think I cobbled together a read list at some point because I had 3 hours without anything better to do, bcus it was a small game filled with players I'd never met.

My most active decision was maintaining a tied vote on MP late in the day phase

I don't want to discuss another game any further in this thread. I just want you to continue sharing the thoughts that you have about this game.

Kinda unfair to say you suspect someone because of a difference in Game A and Game B, then say you don't want to discuss Game A anymore, no?

My point about Pirates wasn't meant to be central to what I had to say about kyle. I just wanted to note that he was hanging back more in this game than in that one. We started to veer into discussion of his play specific to that game, and I don't think that's relevant or constructive here.

I mostly like his answers to my interrogation so far. He seems composed and eager to work toward a solution. I still don't know enough about his gameplay to say that that's a definitive town-tell and I still would like to hear more diverse thoughts from him.

[Marmot]

It's 4:54 in futureland, folks.

A.M.

That's almost an alpine start!

Would appreciate ISO links, since they're hard to do manually from my phone!

(Day 1 ISOs, what have I become)

ISO links have been added. Thanks for the reminder.

my hero <3

I spent many years on the mountain in preparation for this day.

ISO links don't ISO themselves you know.

[Quin]

It's 4:54 in futureland, folks.

A.M.

That's almost an alpine start!

Would appreciate ISO links, since they're hard to do manually from my phone!

(Day 1 ISOs, what have I become)

ISO links have been added. Thanks for the reminder.

my hero <3

I spent many years on the mountain in preparation for this day.

ISO links don't ISO themselves you know.

Marmot in the Mountains seems like one hell of a National Geographic segment.

[Epignosis]

Epi, do you agree with kyle's assessment that you were attacking LC with hyperbole and strawmen?

No.

LC explicitly called cb, Mesk, and Sloonei civilians. There was no consideration given that I could be "buddying" a teammate, as JoH suggested (however the hell one does that).

He also has taken anything I have said or done and says I am "setting up a long game" even though I have never before in my four years of playing Mafia done that Day 1. Instead of considering angles in which my words and actions indicate a civilian, he presses on with his unfounded, circular nonsense.

There is no strawman fallacy or hyperbole, and even if there is, so what?

I'm going to explain a thing you're pretending to not understand one time out of the goodness of my heart. I won't continue to do so because it is tiring.

LC posts that you are bad and you are buddying Bob and Mesk. The implication is that since scum doesn't buddy teammates, if LC is correct in his suspicions, Bob and Mesk would by definition be town.

LC is not claiming to have figured out Mesk or Bob's alignments outside of this, which is obvious.

I am not claiming that scum buddying a teammate is a thing, which is also obvious.

No more straw men. Townies don't gain anything from willfully pretending not to understand accusations.

Nope, sorry, but I'm sure LC appreciates you helping him out with the explanation.

Regardless of who "buddies" whom, the argument is entirely circular.

Furthermore, he called Sloonei a civilian in the same post, as he said I was intimidating a civilian. You believe LC identified three civilians Day 1 based solely on "empty filler" (his word) directed at two of them and that I was intimidating a third one?

If you believe that, I've got a mountain to sell you in Rhode Island.

[Sloonei]

And now, the game is really afoothill!

*crickets*

I might be persuaded to go with Epi today, but as of right now I'd not be willing to put a definitive vote on him.

How's the fence treating you?

*vote sloons*

We need an eye rolling emoji that I can post here.

Posts that appear to say something while not actually saying anything? To borrow the words of somebody else:

That's a good enough reason for Day 1 because I will accept any reason on Day 1.

Do you intend to keep your vote on me?

What an odd question.

I will answer it by saying I subscribe to the maxim "Vote early, vote often."

I'm gonna put a vote on colonialbob because he never told me why this was an odd question.

[Long Con]

How does Long Con know Mesk, coolonialbob, and Sloonei are civilians?

A valid question.
[/quote]

I already let someone else prove it's not valid. Are you following along ok?

As for the cbob and mesk no-vote posts... they're empty filler. Neither of them are in any way real or substantial gameplay. There was nothing about mesk's "dirt" comment that should lead to any alignment decisions. IF you really feel the need to read into it, it indicates a general ignorance or the game structure, which doesn't show as good or bad. And I don't feel like it was even that. Does anyone disagree with this?

And the Rocket Man lyrics response is equally devoid of value. So Epi would have spared his vote for any player who acknowledged his Elton John joke. Why? It doesn't even plant a seed that could grow into a suspicion, it doesn't put anyone on the spot, the only effect is to make cbob slightly more comfortable.

So cut and dry, what does this tie back to? What are you trying to say?

What I am saying is that both of the referenced posts by Epignosis are devoid of content or attempts to gain information or a better understanding of the players. In short, they're filler posts, attempts by a Bad Boy to be present and seem relevant.

Townies don't gain anything from willfully pretending not to understand accusations.

This is a well-said point that explains a large part of why I haven't dropped Epi as a suspicion.

okay this has turned into nonsensical arguments that are getting us nowhere. remind me to never again sign up for a game with both Epi and LC because it just always turns into this and we never make progress

My arguments make sense.

And I think that each of the previous games where I have locked horns early with Epi have a) contained plenty of content that was not related to Epi or myself, and b) made progress.

You want to see a game that didn't make progress? Compare early Pirate Mafia to later Pirate Mafia. Before I died, I came after a few people for smaller details just like this, things that pinged me. I had two of the three Mafia members in my main 3 or 4 suspicions, and I led the lynch of baddie MP07 before getting nightkilled. After I died, the game slowed to a sludge, and the baddies handily guided it to a win.

Story time is fun - I told one, now why don't you tell me a story about the time Epi and I ruined the game by butting heads?

[Quin]

How does Long Con know Mesk, coolonialbob, and Sloonei are civilians?

A valid question.

I already let someone else prove it's not valid. Are you following along ok?

Yes sir. It's still a valid train of thought. You're not immune to scum slips.

[Quin]

And now, the game is really afoothill!

*crickets*

I might be persuaded to go with Epi today, but as of right now I'd not be willing to put a definitive vote on him.

How's the fence treating you?

*vote sloons*

We need an eye rolling emoji that I can post here.

Posts that appear to say something while not actually saying anything? To borrow the words of somebody else:

That's a good enough reason for Day 1 because I will accept any reason on Day 1.

Do you intend to keep your vote on me?

What an odd question.

I will answer it by saying I subscribe to the maxim "Vote early, vote often."

I'm gonna put a vote on colonialbob because he never told me why this was an odd question.

Did you ask him why it was an odd question?

[Long Con]

Epi, do you agree with kyle's assessment that you were attacking LC with hyperbole and strawmen?

No.

LC explicitly called cb, Mesk, and Sloonei civilians. There was no consideration given that I could be "buddying" a teammate, as JoH suggested (however the hell one does that).

He also has taken anything I have said or done and says I am "setting up a long game" even though I have never before in my four years of playing Mafia done that Day 1. Instead of considering angles in which my words and actions indicate a civilian, he presses on with his unfounded, circular nonsense.

There is no strawman fallacy or hyperbole, and even if there is, so what?

I'm going to explain a thing you're pretending to not understand one time out of the goodness of my heart. I won't continue to do so because it is tiring.

LC posts that you are bad and you are buddying Bob and Mesk. The implication is that since scum doesn't buddy teammates, if LC is correct in his suspicions, Bob and Mesk would by definition be town.

LC is not claiming to have figured out Mesk or Bob's alignments outside of this, which is obvious.

I am not claiming that scum buddying a teammate is a thing, which is also obvious.

No more straw men. Townies don't gain anything from willfully pretending not to understand accusations.

Nope, sorry, but I'm sure LC appreciates you helping him out with the explanation.

Yes, I do very much. I didn't want to have to "waste my breath" countering such a ridiculous argument. I can't even believe you're sticking to it. Come on, Epi.

Regardless of who "buddies" whom, the argument is entirely circular.

Furthermore, he called Sloonei a civilian in the same post, as he said I was intimidating a civilian. You believe LC identified three civilians Day 1 based solely on "empty filler" (his word) directed at two of them and that I was intimidating a third one?

If you believe that, I've got a mountain to sell you in Rhode Island.

WHY do you make me DO THIS? I wasn't "identifying" them as Civilians. It's an obvious and necessary assumption in order to be able to accuse you as I have.

[Quin]

I thought as much. Wouldn't you say that's kind of a scum tell for you?

Which part of that is a scum tell for Jack?

Good question; Jack, in answering my question, be a dear and answer Sloonei's as well please.

Where did this conversation lead to?

[Sloonei]

LC what are your thoughts on Sloonei?

[Long Con]

I thought as much. Wouldn't you say that's kind of a scum tell for you?

Which part of that is a scum tell for Jack?

Good question; Jack, in answering my question, be a dear and answer Sloonei's as well please.

Where did this conversation lead to?

Nowhere. Jack's answer was boring and predictable, and I didn't see any real avenue to move forward with it. Just messing around, really.

[Quin]

I'm better at being scum than that Sloonei.

Can you provide proof of this?

Why was it necessary to have her prove this?

@Long Con Lost Again 3 comes to mind. But whatever man. I don't feel the need to prove I can play a good scum game. Especially given the fact that I am not scum in this game.

I also like this response. Quickly ending a conversation which seems of non-import to me. Unless LC wanted to glean something from it, in which case, read quote one.

[Long Con]

LC what are your thoughts on Sloonei?

BRB to answer that. Kids coming home.

[Quin]

I thought as much. Wouldn't you say that's kind of a scum tell for you?

Which part of that is a scum tell for Jack?

Good question; Jack, in answering my question, be a dear and answer Sloonei's as well please.

Where did this conversation lead to?

Nowhere. Jack's answer was boring and predictable, and I didn't see any real avenue to move forward with it. Just messing around, really.

How do you feel about him at the moment?

[Quin]

He's buddying them, and then intimidating you out of an adversarial position. He's setting up a long game. That's not what Civ Epignosis cares to do.

I could see all of this being applicable to Epi in his current form. But he is as crafty a townie as he is scum, so I'm not going to leap to any quick decisions on him.

That just might be the main reason he survives when scum.

What are you suggesting in this post?

[Kylemii]

In short, they're filler posts, attempts by a Bad Boy to be present and seem relevant.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i love you for this

[Sloonei]

He's buddying them, and then intimidating you out of an adversarial position. He's setting up a long game. That's not what Civ Epignosis cares to do.

I could see all of this being applicable to Epi in his current form. But he is as crafty a townie as he is scum, so I'm not going to leap to any quick decisions on him.

That just might be the main reason he survives when scum.

What are you suggesting in this post?

People are going to hate our hydra so much.

[Quin]

He's buddying them, and then intimidating you out of an adversarial position. He's setting up a long game. That's not what Civ Epignosis cares to do.

I could see all of this being applicable to Epi in his current form. But he is as crafty a townie as he is scum, so I'm not going to leap to any quick decisions on him.

That just might be the main reason he survives when scum.

What are you suggesting in this post?

People are going to hate our hydra so much.

That's the dream.

[Quin]

I thought as much. Wouldn't you say that's kind of a scum tell for you?

Which part of that is a scum tell for Jack?

Good question; Jack, in answering my question, be a dear and answer Sloonei's as well please.

Idk. The only scumtell I'm aware of is that I get overly excited when I think I'm about to win as a baddie.[/quote]

This could be compensation for lack of a proper response. I'm not leaning either way on it.

[Quin]

I'm better at being scum than that Sloonei.

Can you provide proof of this?

idk but this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that I'm a better mafia than Epignosis.

Yeah but Epi's a better civvy so we just gotta watch and see which of you does good this game.

Tend to agree with your initial line of questioning.

My 'justify my vote for me' thing?

[Jackofhearts2005]

[mention]Quin[/mention]

Cause this post. I don't think Sloonei posts this if you are teammates together.

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

He's making friends right off the bat.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'm better at being scum than that Sloonei.

Can you provide proof of this?

idk but this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that I'm a better mafia than Epignosis.

Yeah but Epi's a better civvy so we just gotta watch and see which of you does good this game.

Tend to agree with your initial line of questioning.

My 'justify my vote for me' thing?

My conclusion was that you were saying what Sloonei thought you were saying, which I agree with.

[Quin]

@Quin

Cause this post. I don't think Sloonei posts this if you are teammates together.

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

He's making friends right off the bat.

What would he say if we were teammates?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tbf to Epi, he pretends not to understand stuff when he discusses politics, too.

Is still think he's bad and as promised, I won't be explaining anything else to him that he already knows.

[Jackofhearts2005]

@Quin

Cause this post. I don't think Sloonei posts this if you are teammates together.

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

He's making friends right off the bat.

What would he say if we were teammates?

Nothing.

[Jackofhearts2005]

@Quin

Cause this post. I don't think Sloonei posts this if you are teammates together.

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

He's making friends right off the bat.

What would he say if we were teammates?

Nothing.

Or perhaps ask you to clarify.

Imo, scum try not to answer for each other.

[Quin]

If Long Con is a civilian, then is most likely means he is genuine in his suspicion of me.

If his suspicion is genuine, then his accusation that I am being deliberate and calculating in my dealings thus far should be one that he can logically explain.

Already done, but you want more words?

In other words, if I know what I'm doing (i.e., being deliberate in "setting up a long game"), and Long Con is calling me out on that, then he should be able to explain how my actions in the thread so far will benefit my team and me down the road. What is the long game and how am I expecting it to play out?

Uh, you pick two Civs and buddy them so they trust you and don't lynch you. Long game benefit: survival, and more likely to lynch Civs along the way. You intimidate Sloonei out of coming after you. Benefit: One less Civ coming after you; survival; more likely to lynch a Civ along the way.

If he can't answer that, then his suspicion isn't genuine, and he's trying to get a quick and easy Day 1 lynch out of the way.

Let's get this quick and easy Day 1 lynch out of the way, folks!

Point LC.

Epi is perhaps the best dancer on the site. There is nothing "quick and easy" about trying to mislynch him on Day 1. This feels like trying to scare away votes, not a legit attempt to scumhunt, which is exactly what Epi is already accused of doing with Sloonei.

Combined with suspicious nonlynchcandidate declarations, I think this is worthy of a vote.

PS: What is my tell?

I don't think LC and Jack are teammates. This is a natural continuation of old dialogue. Decent distancing if I'm wrong.

[Quin]

guys im on a roll give me more people to postspam