Firefly, The Game [GAME OVER]

[speedchuck]

If crews end up being unbalanced today I'll be a defectin' to fix that tomorrow

[Lunalee]

Captains:

If one member of your squad is mafia, who is it and why?

I guess I'll do what Golden did and tell you why each might be mafia because I can't really honestly pinpoint one as being mafia over any of the rest.

Enri - Hedging his bets when he weighs in on discussions in the thread
Mac - Has been present but hasn't contributed much if anything to the actual hunting of mafia.
Owner - A lot of her suspicions a few pages back were basically defensive responses on behalf of other players, which I found odd.
INH - Haven't seen him much in-thread. Low profile shit.
Soq -Buddy Buddy for the Yucks

If anyone on DH's crew feels personally victimized, you are welcome to jump ship and come join the Bonanza. We get along. At least until our mission is done.

[DharmaHelper]

Captains:

If one member of your squad is mafia, who is it and why?

I guess I'll do what Golden did and tell you why each might be mafia because I can't really honestly pinpoint one as being mafia over any of the rest.

Enri - Hedging his bets when he weighs in on discussions in the thread
Mac - Has been present but hasn't contributed much if anything to the actual hunting of mafia.
Owner - A lot of her suspicions a few pages back were basically defensive responses on behalf of other players, which I found odd.
INH - Haven't seen him much in-thread. Low profile shit.
Soq -Buddy Buddy for the Yucks

If anyone on DH's crew feels personally victimized, you are welcome to jump ship and come join the Bonanza. We get along. At least until our mission is done.

Get yer own crew.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Let's be honest [mention]Marmot[/mention] you want to join the Bonanza. Like, just look at the name, it practically gives away that it's where the party happens.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Speedchuck joined another crew just so he could heroically leave it and join Luna's crew later.

[Golden]

I don’t see anywhere that it says you can leave a crew without being fired.

[Glorfindel]

If crews end up being unbalanced today I'll be a defectin' to fix that tomorrow

I swear allegiance to my captain. I can’t speak for anyone else but I didn’t join the Bonnie Mae on a whim. Golden has been very supportive of me for a long time here at The Syndicate and I’m proud to be a member of his crew. I would move my vote to defend him if need be.

[Golden]

If this ends up being a thing where I keep having to hire crew because people jump around I may regret my choice to be captain lol. But this is interesting

[mention]kyungdaisy[/mention] can people leave crews without being fired?

[Marmot]

Hostess, put me on the Ballie May please.

[Marmot]

I meant the Bonnie May.

[speedchuck]

I don’t see anywhere that it says you can leave a crew without being fired.

Oh. Well. I thought this was an at-will contract.

I bear you no dishonor nor distaste, of course. I am acting in this way for two reasons. Firstly, as a light form of role-playing, I find the disloyalty fitting to my persona. And secondly, I think it would be helpful to jump around and get a feel for multiple crews.

That said, if I am stuck until fired, I will not regret my choice of captain. I still refuse to mutiny, and I will perform with excellence.

pls don't fire me xoxo

[Marmot]

[VOTE: MacDougall] aubergine

I'd push him into a ship engine.

[novaselinenever]

That’s a big load of baloney right there, nova.

1) I danced around nothing. I’ve been direct about what I’ve been seeing. It’s your choice whether to engage in my suspicions of you or not, I don’t have to ask a specific question of you or @mention you to get your attention. That’s a completely arbitrary standard you’ve decided to apply, just to paint me as not genuine.

2) The motivation is clear to me - to control who is on what crew, who’s available for a nk, who’s available for a lynch. I’m far less controllable. If I pick an entirely town crew, and prevent them being lynched, then I get a strong advantage over the mafia. If I pick well, I can effectively prevent myself being nked.

3) You say you saw it coming... I could tell. That’s why you came at me the way you did to begin with. I called you out and instead of addressing my suspicion, you went as hominem - going after my choice of grammar instead of the accusation. There’s nothing much to your reasoning for your votes. Your turn on me was because apparently you liked me early and liked me less later, but you didn’t manage to give a single reason for either of those things. You’ve been waiting for me to vote before you do much of anything, just so you can defend the vote instead of actually engaging in the original suspicion too deeply.

Your response post then is trying to make out like my logic doesn’t track when you’re all over the place.

I particularly like this sentence from yo: “you’re getting too hung up on the captain votes, when I don’t think it should be a priority.” Of course you wouldn’t think it should be a priority if you’re reading it down. But I hate that deeply. If you don’t think the mafia tried to manipulate that vote in some way... we’ll i just don’t believe you.

Day zero and day one is where mafia slip and think they can get away with it. They protect their own, help each other out and pass it off as unimportant. The very fact you set out to overtly break the tie and then did it with absolutely no post history to back it up is part of why I find yours in particular the most suspicious - because what mafia would be so bold, huh? It has its own inherent wifom.

As for me wanting to be captain - on that one, at least, I’ll admit it’s NAI. I’d want it either way. But I wanted it here because of how badly day zero reeked of manipulation.

1) Oh, you danced around it all right. I engaged your suspicions twice, and you've asked me questions every time. You dropped it every time afterwards. I can't do anything more than that.

2) Nice then riddle me this, why did I not break the tie between you and Glorfindel if you think me and my team were dreading having you as captain? While you're at it, elaborate on my motivation on voting you first, then voting for people with no votes, and finally going with 3 of the 5 tied.

I agree that it's weird but I don't agree that it is suspicious/bad. I think you're being pretty opportunistic trying to paint it as such, that's why I saw this coming after your 2 mentions of my votes.

3) Is explaining my thought process on how I voted, not addressing your suspicions? I would think that is one way to ease them, since you think there are ulterior motives behind them. Nah, I'm not going after your choice of grammar, you're just full of it.

I never said the Mafia never had tried to manipulate the votes, nor elect one of theirs. I said that what I did was in no way some grandiose manipulation, as you'd like to paint it. I think it's pretty dumb to think so.

Lol, yeah sure. The Day Zero mafia manipulation of captain votes, and Nova the bold. Thank god you're here to save us from it.

Somehow me bringing it up again and again and you ‘knowing’ this vote was coming also equals me ‘dropping it’. Can you point out a post where I dropped it? You’re making out like I’ve moved on from you or accepted your answers.

Your entire response has been over the top attack on me, not the case. I think that’s because you’re bad and you don’t have a substantive reason for what you did.

You jumped into an interaction between me and Enrique I believe, with some "Better question is..." bullshit. I responded to you, and gave you my thought process on how I voted. I also asked you why didn't interact with me directly if you had any problem with it. You then asked me the reasons for which I voted, unvoted you and my whole D0 votes. I obliged, and responded explaining my votes. You stopped interacting with me, and talking about me before your new push. More than 24 hours passed between the two. I'd qualify that as you accepting my answer and moving on at least partially.

No, I attacked both you and the case. Your case is based on my votes, and I already explained my votes process. How is explaining that not giving substantive reasons? You're trying very hard to switch your suspicions on me to my responses, rather than your initial case because there was none. Just a whole lot of bullshit.

[speedchuck]

[VOTE: MACDOUGALL]

With you Marmot

[Golden]

I have no intention of firing. I picked people that I think can add discussion value in night phases... I really don’t want to lose momentum at night.

Also, in looking at the rules again I may be making a false assumption, but it looks like mafia can only kill on a ship they’re on. Standing still should help with analysis ifim right about this.

[DharmaHelper]

Sudden Mac Attac no bueno. pls esplain.

[speedchuck]

Also, in looking at the rules again I may be making a false assumption, but it looks like mafia can only kill on a ship they’re on. Standing still should help with analysis if I'm right about this.

I think you're right, though I assumed moving around could help more. We could isolate and cross-reference groups that way.

[novaselinenever]

Btw novas apparently been expecting me to come at him for ages and says I’m bad because I do but there’s no particular stated suspicion nor even a vote for me to back it up. Just attack as defence.

Pretty standard stuff.

I had a bad feeling about how you've been trying to paint my votes for captain. It read as you dancing around an opportunity, and trying to find suspicions where there are none. I wanted to see if you'd commit, and go for my lynch before I strike back.

You did. Bad move.

Bullshit. Your entire case on me is that I was hesitant or something, but you call your own non-engagement ‘standard stuff’.

You had absolutely no intention of calling me out as bad unless you felt you had to.

My suspicion is not something I’m ‘trying to find’ and I invite anyone to go back and read. There’s several people who broke a tie against me over the course of time but Nova did it twice (once with the vote removal, another time by voting for others) and his reasons are generic as generic.

Nova, you’re making out like my suspicion is not real. You broke the tie against me twice and you’re making out like this has no legitimacy. You are not prepared for trying to no u me.

If you say, so.

I think if someone reads my response to you earlier, you could easily sense my uneasiness with you. I raised how strange for me it was that you didn't interact with me about my votes, but instead hijacked some other conversations and kept dropping my name here and there.

They're not real, though. Unless you're incompetent which I don't think you are. The motivation is there if I were bad, but it doesn't take a genuis to see how my voting pattern is so simple and dumb, that it can't possibly be some manipulation. I could have broken the tie between you and Glorfindel, and I've been saying this earlier yet you ignored this point to push your narrative. I also had voted for TH earlier with my initial vote, why did I also unvote him.

I'm sorry but I just don't see what you're seeing. I explained all my votes and reasons behind them. I also don't think there is a need to draw this out. You could take them as generic, but that doesn't make them so.

Oh, I'm prepared all right. I feast on bullshit case made by scum,

[VOTE: Golden ] aubergine

[speedchuck]

Sudden Mac Attac no bueno. pls esplain.

I like DDL. He's a good bloke. Would rather lynch Nova even, though I've been so busy catching up at work today that I haven't verified the Golden case.

Mac is quiet (as he has been as scum). He isn't showing any of the fire he usually has as town. I don't know that he's done any hunting.
Why not attack mac? He's on your crew?

[Golden]

You stopped interacting with me, and talking about me before your new push. More than 24 hours passed between the two. I'd qualify that as you accepting my answer and moving on at least partially.

If that's how you'd categorise it, then why did you 'know' I was coming back to vote for you?

The idea that I'm no longer suspicious of someone because I didn't mention I was suspicious of them in each 24 hour period is daft. No, I didn't accept your answer. If I thought it was a good answer I would have said so. Like, for example, I did with DDL here:

Cuz there isn't a single person I'm confident I can easily read.

Good answer

Your answers were crap. I don't have to attack them immediately for me to think that sincerely.

Here's the thing I'm trying to work through with you - is your no u on me sincere? DDL has led me to believe there's a chance it is. But I keep seeing things like this that make me struggle with that. Why would silence be acceptance? And there is this inherent contradiction between the fact you claim I partially stopped suspecting you and the fact you claimed you expected my vote. What do you actually expect town me to look like in this equation?

[DharmaHelper]

Sudden Mac Attac no bueno. pls esplain.

I like DDL. He's a good bloke. Would rather lynch Nova even, though I've been so busy catching up at work today that I haven't verified the Golden case.

Mac is quiet (as he has been as scum). He isn't showing any of the fire he usually has as town. I don't know that he's done any hunting.
Why not attack mac? He's on your crew?

I just get wary of votes that pop out of the blue nowhere.

[DharmaHelper]

Also holy shit at Nova Doc and Mac voting for probably the easiest civ read apart from Glorf*



*allegedly

[speedchuck]

Would Golden and Nova state the case against each other in like, ten words or less? I drown when I look at that argument chain.

My current take:
Golden - "Nova's captain votes are weird and probably bad"
Nova - "Nu uh they normal and you are bad for your fake accusation"
Golden - "Man, what an overreaction. Calling it scum"
Nova - "Town Golden wouldn't have a case this bad"

Is that anywhere close?

[speedchuck]

Also holy shit at Nova Doc and Mac voting for probably the easiest civ read apart from Glorf*

That too.

I talked about Mac a while back but nobody really looked into it. Not a whole lot to talk about. Look at mac's most recent posts. They are hogwash.

[Lunalee]

Speedchuck joined another crew just so he could heroically leave it and join Luna's crew later.

I shouldn't let him. That would just be insulting.

[DharmaHelper]

On the one hand novas half of the Golden/Nova exchanges has read to me as contrived and the most bad between the two

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

[Lunalee]

Would Golden and Nova state the case against each other in like, ten words or less? I drown when I look at that argument chain.

My current take:
Golden - "Nova's captain votes are weird and probably bad"
Nova - "Nu uh they normal and you are bad for your fake accusation"
Golden - "Man, what an overreaction. Calling it scum"
Nova - "Town Golden wouldn't have a case this bad"

Is that anywhere close?

Thank you for that summary. I don't like reading novels in mafia threads.

[speedchuck]

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

I agree with this observation. But then, Golden went after Nova first. I could almost see a scum Nova reacting and then doubling down on it.

If Nova sought out Golden without provocation, I'd agree.

[novaselinenever]

You stopped interacting with me, and talking about me before your new push. More than 24 hours passed between the two. I'd qualify that as you accepting my answer and moving on at least partially.

If that's how you'd categorise it, then why did you 'know' I was coming back to vote for you?

The idea that I'm no longer suspicious of someone because I didn't mention I was suspicious of them in each 24 hour period is daft. No, I didn't accept your answer. If I thought it was a good answer I would have said so. Like, for example, I did with DDL here:

Cuz there isn't a single person I'm confident I can easily read.

Good answer

Your answers were crap. I don't have to attack them immediately for me to think that sincerely.

Here's the thing I'm trying to work through with you - is your no u on me sincere? DDL has led me to believe there's a chance it is. But I keep seeing things like this that make me struggle with that. Why would silence be acceptance? And there is this inherent contradiction between the fact you claim I partially stopped suspecting you and the fact you claimed you expected my vote. What do you actually expect town me to look like in this equation?

I said "partially". Mix that up with you dancing around and prodding, and this final push. Voilà!

I'm afraid I have nothing to work through with you. I'm about to head out, and all I have to say is laid out before your eyes. I've played with you once I think. I also don't really rely on what Townie X or Baddie X would do. You're a competent player, who wouldn't have much trouble feigning an approach from either.

I just don't think your suspicions are genuine. I laid out my reasons for that, based on your behavior throughout the phase.

[novaselinenever]

On the one hand novas half of the Golden/Nova exchanges has read to me as contrived and the most bad between the two

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What exactly feels contrived in my posts?

[DharmaHelper]

On the one hand novas half of the Golden/Nova exchanges has read to me as contrived and the most bad between the two

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What exactly feels contrived in my posts?

The whole theme of "Ahah, you activated my TRAP CARD!" With respect to your whole "I was expecting this!" argument.

[novaselinenever]

On the one hand novas half of the Golden/Nova exchanges has read to me as contrived and the most bad between the two

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What exactly feels contrived in my posts?

The whole theme of "Ahah, you activated my TRAP CARD!" With respect to your whole "I was expecting this!" argument.

lol.

Here are my post from our earlier interaction. Look at the bolded. I'm not sure if they translate well my thoughts, and feelings about his whole push but it's something. That's me finding the whole thing weird, and having the feeling that he's dancing around with it, which led to "I was expecting this!".

You could have asked me that directly.

@novaselinenever I wasn't here around deadline, how did you break the tie exactly and how was it tied again?

Dharma, Glorfindel, Golden, Luna and Turnip were all tied at 9. I put Dharma, Luna and Turnip at 10.

How come you didn't break the tie between Golden and Glorfindel?

Better question

Why did Nova vote for me early on, then remove the vote from me, and finally voted to ensure only one of glorf and I was captain?

This is the second time I see mention this.

I removed all my initial votes, and vote for people who didn't have any vote as not to leave anyone without votes. I'm a big softie like that.

But I changed my mind before the deadline, and decided to have my votes matter. The three I voted for are my preferred choices between the 5 tied. I don't care much about who becomes captain between you and Glorf, so I left it to the RNG gods.

[Golden]

Would Golden and Nova state the case against each other in like, ten words or less? I drown when I look at that argument chain.

My current take:
Golden - "Nova's captain votes are weird and probably bad"
Nova - "Nu uh they normal and you are bad for your fake accusation"
Golden - "Man, what an overreaction. Calling it scum"
Nova - "Town Golden wouldn't have a case this bad"

Is that anywhere close?

We probably both have different perspectives on this.

For the third line, I don't think it's an 'overreaction'. I think the no u seems insincere, and in particular I think he was happy not to call me bad until I called him bad, so it's an empty no u as well.
For the fourth line, I don't think that seems right. I'm trying to imagine nova's suspicion on me through a town lens and I can't describe it rationally in my own mind.

[Golden]

I'm sorry but I just don't see what you're seeing.

What is this. You don't 'see' something about your own game. Either I'm right or I'm wrong, you don't have to see it, you already know which it is.

[Golden]

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What do you mean?

[DharmaHelper]

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What do you mean?

If Nova is bad, and you're not, lynching you so early just paints an insane target on his back.

[speedchuck]

Would Golden and Nova state the case against each other in like, ten words or less? I drown when I look at that argument chain.

My current take:
Golden - "Nova's captain votes are weird and probably bad"
Nova - "Nu uh they normal and you are bad for your fake accusation"
Golden - "Man, what an overreaction. Calling it scum"
Nova - "Town Golden wouldn't have a case this bad"

Is that anywhere close?

We probably both have different perspectives on this.

For the third line, I don't think it's an 'overreaction'. I think the no u seems insincere, and in particular I think he was happy not to call me bad until I called him bad, so it's an empty no u as well.
For the fourth line, I don't think that seems right. I'm trying to imagine nova's suspicion on me through a town lens and I can't describe it rationally in my own mind.

That's why I'm asking both of you.

[Golden]

You could have asked me that directly.

That post is the one I hate the most.

It implies that I have to write a post in a particular way in order for Nova to respond. Like, the fact I say 'I think this about Nova" instead of saying "Nova, I think this about you" is the difference between me being good and bad.

This was the question:

Better question

Why did Nova vote for me early on, then remove the vote from me, and finally voted to ensure only one of glorf and I was captain?

There's nothing about this that implies Nova shouldn't respond, in fact I would expect Nova to respond. But Nova immediately takes issue with the fact I didn't ask him directly, as though my phrasing somehow prevents him from making a reasonable response.

But it doesn't, because the important thing here is I was reframing Enrique's question:

@novaselinenever I wasn't here around deadline, how did you break the tie exactly and how was it tied again?

Dharma, Glorfindel, Golden, Luna and Turnip were all tied at 9. I put Dharma, Luna and Turnip at 10.

How come you didn't break the tie between Golden and Glorfindel?

I wasn't just talking to nova. I was talking to Enrique as well.

He's taking a tense out of context and blowing it up into me 'dancing around him'. It makes no sense. He was in the thread. He answered Enrique right before I reframed the question. I knew he would respond to it. The issue with me not 'asking him directly' just feels like him setting up the trap he executed on later.

[Golden]

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What do you mean?

If Nova is bad, and you're not, lynching you so early just paints an insane target on his back.

Why? Just because I'm me?

[Golden]

What happened to Kyle's catch up?

There's been soooo many quiet people today.

[DharmaHelper]

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What do you mean?

If Nova is bad, and you're not, lynching you so early just paints an insane target on his back.

Why? Just because I'm me?

No because if you flip civ and Nova is bad then your case and your day-long exchange means any town worth their salt would just lynch nova.

[Golden]

On the other, what kind of lunatic would lynch their #1 enemy Day 1 in a game with one mafia team if they were mafia. Absolute loon.

What do you mean?

If Nova is bad, and you're not, lynching you so early just paints an insane target on his back.

Why? Just because I'm me?

No because if you flip civ and Nova is bad then your case and your day-long exchange means any town worth their salt would just lynch nova.

I don't agree with this logic. People don't just get lynched because they lead mislynches. I've run mislynches as a baddie in the past, or been crucial votes in mislynches, often it gets you cred.

[Golden]

One more thing about Nova:

He has 27 posts. Since he started talking about me, he's had 17 of those posts. The only other person he's expressed any opinion on in those posts is glorfindel. His effort in the game has been solely focussed on his exchanges with me.

In those exchanges, he's also not put the slightest bit of effort into engaging with any part of my content other than my engagement with him. I've provided (I think) substantial content for him to engage with, in terms of his read on me, that he's chosen not to. Others have also offered opinions on me that he's chosen not to engage with. He has a singular focus on the one thing that he's decided makes me bad.

That one thing happened after his vote. Apparently he found me dodgy enough before that point to not vote for me as captain. He hasn't explained why, except that it could possibly be linked to the fact that I noted he had removed his vote from me.

Nova, if you're actually town, why not do more than just focus on me?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having said all of this - honestly not that many people are engaging with this. I think people are scared to engage with my cases on people generally because of how wall-y they are. Right now I may well have to vote Mac to save myself. I have no problem doing that, because Mac's content has been very consistent with two-head mafia and he could easily be bad.

[mention]Glorfindel[/mention] is there any chance you can get in touch with lapluie? She isn't showing up yet.

[Turnip Head]

All the cool kids are voting for Mac

[Golden]

For whatever reason, I have long attracted lazy day one voting wagons. It gets me lynched often, but it's annoying. It's Wilgy and Mac's prerogative to be lazy, but if they are actually town, they're putting me in harms way with their half-assed votes. It's not at all hard for the mafia to justify an easy lynch of me from here. This is bad stuff.

[Golden]

Also, in looking at the rules again I may be making a false assumption, but it looks like mafia can only kill on a ship they’re on. Standing still should help with analysis if I'm right about this.

I think you're right, though I assumed moving around could help more. We could isolate and cross-reference groups that way.

Moving around seems like a way to never be quite sure any crews are completely town. I could be wrong on that... Thinking about it more, in the short term standing still could be good, but if we're hunting for the last mafia late in the game, looking back on crews that have moved around might be better. I'm not sure.

In GoC, people standing still for long periods of time while LoRab sat on the button ended up being quite meaningful.

[Golden]

[VOTE: MacDougall] aubergine

[novaselinenever]

I'm sorry but I just don't see what you're seeing.

What is this. You don't 'see' something about your own game. Either I'm right or I'm wrong, you don't have to see it, you already know which it is.

No, that's not exactly it. I don't see how you could think that I manipulated the vote to keep you from being captain, while not breaking the tie between you and Glorfindel.

[Golden]

If we lynch nova later and he's bad, put a marker in today and look back to why I didn't get any traction. I'm willing to bet there's people deliberately misdirecting and raising other options to keep him safe.

[DharmaHelper]

RIPERINO my flawless crew.