DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[sprityo]

im realizing i've been very closeminded and should start paying attention more to my orange yellows

hush you, my point still stands.

im going to bed. l8r

[Infected_alien8_]

Really enjoying this game so far by the way. Gonna take a break now.

[Tangrowth]

- alien's entrance (and choice of first suspicion! ) struck me as towny, and smacks of his qualifier play much more than his wc game

I have a problem.

[mention]Tsaiah[/mention]

I know you're knee deep in a catch up. This is not urgent at all. But when you get a chance can you talk to me about this? I thought it'd be pretty understandable if Alien was scum and decided to suspect me. Maybe I'm an idiot though.

BBL.

[Tangrowth]

Really enjoying this game so far by the way. Gonna take a break now.

I am too even if I've probably been driving myself way too insane with it. I need to probably do more than mafia and work. I will try to be lowkey for a long while myself. I keep saying this though. Sigh.

[Tsaiah]

I compiled a quick list of names for players who have put something in this thread now, but I don't recall seeing a lot of reads on them off-hand.

ColinIsCool
Kylemii
Marmot
RobotNerd277
Russtifinko
sprityo
Turnip Head

Tell me where these people stand in your game view. I will consider the same.

At whenever this post is

ColinIsCool - probably town of the fence for no real reason i can articulate. xD might have something to do with what questions he asks and maybe when he pops up prairie-dog style in the thread?

Russtifinko - some towny feels on what i think were their first few posts, the i'm disagreeing with a case but also questioning the cased felt good to me

Robotnerd - sliiightly town of the fence for first thoughts post

The others idk

Good list to try to fill gaps as i go, tho

[MacDougall]

I am sorry if I overreacted before. Phone posting while in city traffic is enough to get my hackles up but the context was pretty frustrating too.

That being said.

1. I am not scum
2. If I sound weird it's because I am a weird guy
3. That post this morning came across the way it did because I initially was going to just say "I can't read this guy while he's acting this way" but then I couldn't help but bite chunks out of him.

So much came at me that I don't know where to pick it up so if someone wants to ask me something directly I'll answer it.

I did come out of feeling damn good about Russ. Reading his measured opinion in the middle of that shitstorm was like the feeling you get from hugging your mother.

[Tangrowth]

I'm sorry too Mac. I had no intention to be an asshole. I promise I'll give both universes full consideration. I've already calmed down significantly and will be re-reading stuff later.

[Tangrowth]

I did come out of feeling damn good about Russ. Reading his measured opinion in the middle of that shitstorm was like the feeling you get from hugging your mother.

And LMAO I felt that same way.

I hesitate to say it's too alignment indicative but I liked it as well as far as him being town as well because if he was scum he could have just let us keep headbutting.

In general, Russ is one of the nicest fucking people I know. Just talking to him any time is like that. I feel pretty lucky because I think I have some pretty awesome friends.

[Tsaiah]

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

UGH, STOP. Lol. That is not true. Where are you getting this impression? How can clarify anything I've said so far?

Just the ease you have with slapping down people as Town, it's very different to how you were in the champs. In champs you'd enter the thread with questions for basically everyone. Any town-reads you had always felt sort of thin, like you respected their ability to fake it, so you leaned Town but always wanted everyone to constantly be wary. This game you're just sort of throwing out town-reads and it feels like you're buddying with people, like when you said to someone 'we can solve this game together in both our town mindsets' or something along those lines.

I know this is a different forum and you know people well here, and that could be the explanation, it's just not something I feel right now, it just feels off to my gut, especially since colin also agreed and he's played before. I asked people who've played with you before if you are like this usually with people you know, though, and if it turns out you are then fair enough, but right now I'm suspicious of you

/butts in

maybe this is a difference in perspectives. one of the reasons that i started townreading MP7 in champs was because the way that he was acting in the thread made sense for a townie to act; he was clearly at a disadvantage meta-wise, regardless of alignment, but what i saw him doing there was peppering people with questions that allowed him to gain back some footing. he was leveling questions that allowed him to gain some of that meta secondhand.

it's not just that he had questions for people, it was the nature of the questions that mattered there. i don't think he'd have the same incentive to constantly throw out questions for the players here since he has a much greater degree of familiarity and personal meta with everybody here. what sort of questions would you expect him to be asking in this arena--the same type of questions?

also, i will say that i think that the ease with which he's been putting people down as town is actually similar to the way he did it with me in WC. that was a special case, but potentially still relevant

Hey aby, what do you make of Alien? And thanks for the perspective here. I do agree the environment is different and that inevitably will affect my approach to the game

so far, i've gotten a much greater sense of alien trying to hunt this game when compared to wildcards

he's hedging a lot less, he's coming out with his suspicions and sticking to his guns somewhat, and i think he's making an attempt to make his thoughts known without worrying overmuch about making those thoughts as palatable as possible

there's a possibility that he's attempting to adjust his play because it was discussed postgame (we specifically discussed hedging and overexplaining as signs postgame iirc), so this is a very conditional take.

This post sounds like an example of the tells you're talking about

RATS. if only alien and i were the same player!

LMAO

re: post-game discussion, that is a thing i didn't know, thank /shoves that in the consider drawer

[mention]Turnip Head[/mention] uhh. how does that post sound like that to you?

[MacDougall]

I'm sorry too Mac. I had no intention to be an asshole. I promise I'll give both universes full consideration. I've already calmed down significantly and will be re-reading stuff later.

I don't think you did anything wrong. I just got really frustrated with your conviction. I have the imagine of all caps SURE burned into my mind. That's just on me. I should be able to handle that.

[ColinIsCool]

Does Kyle usually ask a lot of questions? Like, maybe it’s the alcohol but this pinged me:

players who know infected alien, how would you characterize their civ gameplay? mafia gameplay?

do they often go out of their way to weigh in on things, both positively and negatively? is there a correlation to alignment or is it a consistent behavior across the board

When I’m scum I frequently will pose questions not necessarily related to anything in the thread that are juuuuust relevant enough to make it look like I’m attempting to solve. That’s what this post felt like.

[ColinIsCool]

I'm feeling turbulent right now. I need help. Someone talk to me about reads.

talk to me about russtifinko,

tell me tales of the Old Times, MP

Here he is again man.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Tsaiah[/mention] and [mention]abyssum[/mention] and [mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention] and [mention]RobotNerd277[/mention] y’all are cool and fun and neat and super and we’d all be fortunate to have you around for more games okay? Okay

[Tangrowth]

@Tsaiah and @abyssum and @Infected_alien8_ and @RobotNerd277 y’all are cool and fun and neat and super and we’d all be fortunate to have you around for more games okay? Okay

Now this is something I do 100% agree with.

[ColinIsCool]

Try to put yourself in Mac's shoes if you're town.

I try doing that.

Then I try to see if THAT'S how I think of sprityo.

Nah. That's not what I would post. It's an agenda post.

I agree with it

[Russtifinko]

I did come out of feeling damn good about Russ. Reading his measured opinion in the middle of that shitstorm was like the feeling you get from hugging your mother.

And LMAO I felt that same way.

I hesitate to say it's too alignment indicative but I liked it as well as far as him being town as well because if he was scum he could have just let us keep headbutting.

In general, Russ is one of the nicest fucking people I know. Just talking to him any time is like that. I feel pretty lucky because I think I have some pretty awesome friends.

Awww, you guys.

I've read Alien - feel somewhat better about some things, and worse about others. Composing ISO now.

[Tangrowth]

Colin I like your thoughts on Kyle. I'll ISO him later.

I really need to like go away though. So... yeah. Be back in a few hours (hopefully).

[ColinIsCool]

I am not able to play at present, but I note one thing in the recent dialogue I can mention.

I do get at least one bad vibe from Mac’s latest handling of sprityo: it’s all in the third person.

“Look at what sprityo did”

“you should suspect sprityo’s actions because”

“Bring your attention to this abomination from sprityo”

The quotes are not exact, obviously. That can bear a bad appearance under the wrong circumstances, and my initial instincts recoiled a bit upon seeing it here. However, it must be stated that Mac was more direct in his initial response to sprityo, and that this extends beyond that — at some point the audience has to be appealed to if a case is going to be promoted.

Da fuq is this shpposed to mean

[ColinIsCool]

Russ you appear town to me based on tone. I just don’t see pretension or any bad pings. Abyssum, I dunno, I agreed with Jay’s assessment there that her content was the kind of stuff that could easily be manufactured as scum. Not a strong read

[ColinIsCool]

Reading his measured opinion in the middle of that shitstorm was like the feeling you get from hugging your mother.

What about hugging your mother-in-law?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Da fuq is this shpposed to mean

It’s difficult to explain. In short, I think mafia members are more likely to defend against attackers with third-person discredits than civilians are.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Note on Kyle: I normally feel his civilian presence pretty quickly. Right now I don’t. I struggle to remember his stances, because I only know of one post off-hand in which he shared any.

[ColinIsCool]

There may be merit to that ... or there may not be ... I have no idea.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There may be merit to that ... or there may not be ... I have no idea.

If I am correct, it’d represent a means for the mafioso to speak to the audience in defense instead of speaking to the attacker. It’s a sort of propaganda.

[ColinIsCool]

I wonder if my propensity for playing Mafia while boozing had any effect on my draft stock.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Kylemii[/mention]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

That was supposed to be a vote.

[VOTE: Kylemii] aubergine

[ColinIsCool]

[VOTE: KYLEMII] aubergine

Let’s get FUCKED UP

[RobotNerd277]

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Hi RobotNerd, thanks for the prompt. I have trouble finding where I should give input in games like this with a lot of experienced players weighing in.

This looks like the post that started it all: A very innocent comment by sprityo about Mac not being actually green on MP's read list.
Here's why MacDougall dislikes sprityo:
Sprityo has avoided heat in ways he probably shouldn't have I want to see examples of this, because I don't see it in sprit's ISO.
sprityo responds to Mac's suspicions by saying "it was a joke" and "I'm bad at mafia"

Then there's Sprit's blow-up post and Mac's reaction to it. At first glance, it honestly looks like two civvs who don't understand each other.

But I can't help but notice how sprityo is reacting to this whole thing. He swings an attack, then immediately backs down, as if hoping to shut it down before Mac can swing back:
swing 1
back-down 1
swing 2
back-down 2

Mac's response to this is steady and forceful. He does not back down. This seems like a more common townie trait. If I had to pick a scum between Mac and Sprityo, I would choose Sprityo.

His backdown #2 wasn't him going back on his reads though, it was him wanting to move on from stating his case because it was taxing argueing

This also feels a bit like a forced read to me, it feels like you're struggling for what to say, so you're just trying to find something you could say is suspicious, because I don't think your quotes match into your argument very well so it reads as if you made the case first and then tried to fit things into it as opposed to working bottom-up and seeing it first and then making the case

I felt like back down 2 was Sprityo attempting to shut the door on the whole issue, because he didn't want to continue engaging with Mac.
I did force myself to make a read of Mac and sprit (if that's what you mean), but I didn't have a conclusion going into it. It sort of evolved. Where else do my quotes not make since to you? I may have messed them up, or if not I can try to clarify.

I agree it's sprit trying to move on, I don't agree it was 'backing down' though, he was shutting himself off from argueing anymore about it but maintaining his stance

And no it was just that part, it feels like you were trying to twist what he did into some sort of case where you say he keeps backing down even though I don't think it fits properly

Also @M Plus 7 what do you think of robot this game right now? Hopefully that tag works but it didn't come up with the option menu thing so I'm not sure

I... am not sure. I liked her entrance and her attempts to seem grounded in the game struck me as sincere initially, but now I'm just like... I don't know. I'm not sure I like her treatment of Luna. What do you think of her?

She seems different to what I remember of her last game. Last game she listened to people's arguments, agreed, voted accordingly, then listened to counter-arguments, agreed, unvoted. It was like that all game with her. This game she's very much on her own, sort of in isolation from others' opinions. I'm not sure what to make of it though.

Yeah, I'm getting this impression too. But to be fair too she did against the grain things in Game 9 like vote for me on Day 1 and stuff like that.

She did seem more... turbulent that game maybe? I think that's what I'm picking up on. She seems more confident here.

Honestly, I feel a lot more confident here. Last time beru was the only person I knew and I hadn't played a game with her in like 5 years, and this time I've got you, alien, and tsaiah, and I've also been hanging out/lurking on various relevant discord servers. I don't feel thrown off the deep end so much. I feel like I have friends.

The reason I was trying to get Luna is because she appeared to be online right then and also I had no read on her whatsoever. I want to do the same thing to Marmot but they also never appear to be online.

some catchup-y remarks:
I feel like I should comment on being accused as scum but like, idk what you want out of me. I want to get a read on ppl. I'll add "posting a rainbow reads list" onto my todolist.

Spoiler: show

@Tsaiah and @abyssum and @Infected_alien8_ and @RobotNerd277 y’all are cool and fun and neat and super and we’d all be fortunate to have you around for more games okay? Okay

thank you jay <3

[MacDougall]

I am not able to play at present, but I note one thing in the recent dialogue I can mention.

I do get at least one bad vibe from Mac’s latest handling of sprityo: it’s all in the third person.

“Look at what sprityo did”

“you should suspect sprityo’s actions because”

“Bring your attention to this abomination from sprityo”

The quotes are not exact, obviously. That can bear a bad appearance under the wrong circumstances, and my initial instincts recoiled a bit upon seeing it here. However, it must be stated that Mac was more direct in his initial response to sprityo, and that this extends beyond that — at some point the audience has to be appealed to if a case is going to be promoted.

Da fuq is this shpposed to mean

He is saying that it seemed weird but it kinda makes sense for me to talk to the rest of you about sprityo as opposed to just engaging him directly if I am to get him lynched, which was and is still my intention.

[RobotNerd277]

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

[MacDougall]

Reading his measured opinion in the middle of that shitstorm was like the feeling you get from hugging your mother.

What about hugging your mother-in-law?

Nah she a cold hearted biotch

[MacDougall]

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

Because Sprityo is scum obviously. You can see it by the way his wagon has had this passive resistance against it.

[MacDougall]

Does Kyle usually ask a lot of questions? Like, maybe it’s the alcohol but this pinged me:

players who know infected alien, how would you characterize their civ gameplay? mafia gameplay?

do they often go out of their way to weigh in on things, both positively and negatively? is there a correlation to alignment or is it a consistent behavior across the board

When I’m scum I frequently will pose questions not necessarily related to anything in the thread that are juuuuust relevant enough to make it look like I’m attempting to solve. That’s what this post felt like.

I have wrongly accused Kyle of this exact thing before. Kyle what game was that in? It was very recent.

[MacDougall]

There may be merit to that ... or there may not be ... I have no idea.

If I am correct, it’d represent a means for the mafioso to speak to the audience in defense instead of speaking to the attacker. It’s a sort of propaganda.

You switch between reading me with too much meta, and then not enough. Remember who you are referring to when you are suggesting that I have any qualms "speaking to the attacker". What you're referring to suits a timid player more than it does me.

To be honest sprityo has not given me much of a chance to engage him directly on the subject of my alignment because all he has done is taken an exhaustive "everything I have posted has sucked" approach.

What is frustrating to me is that the post that triggered MP so badly has some very valid points as to why sprityo is likely to be Mafia. It would be nice if someone actually read the contents of it from the perspective of it being sincere because it fucking was.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll consider what you said, Mac.

[mention]M Plus 7[/mention], it'd be ideal if you could also go deeper into what has sold you on sprityo as a civilian.

[RobotNerd277]

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

Because Sprityo is scum obviously. You can see it by the way his wagon has had this passive resistance against it.

So you're saying Jay is scum, as the person leading the flip? I... don't want to buy that but I'll keep this moment in my back pocket.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Kyle was a mafioso in the 2017 GOC, and meta considerations should probably start there. I tend to view his play as pretty consistent though. The element which seems to be missing this time is less about his tone or his joviality and more about his relevant effort. He may never be one of the most active hunters, but I am used to seeing more than I have in his present 66 posts.

[ColinIsCool]

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would still very much like to hear what people think of the dialogue between DharmaHelper and I when this day phase was still very young. We argued for a bit over the case I have stated against him, and my own preconceptions and bias will inherently infect my views of that interaction. I want external perspectives.

This would probably be a good enough starting point.

[MacDougall]

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

Because Sprityo is scum obviously. You can see it by the way his wagon has had this passive resistance against it.

So you're saying Jay is scum, as the person leading the flip? I... don't want to buy that but I'll keep this moment in my back pocket.

Nah that's not really what I mean. I mean generally there is a passive resistance against the sprityo lynch that to me makes little sense. I get the sense that there has been some voices pushing agendas around. Perhaps Jay, perhaps MP, perhaps Colin, perhaps others. Can't be all of them.

And, as always, maybe I'm just wrong.

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

You are more comfortable with Kyle getting lynched here than sprityo because?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

I at least agree with the first sentence here. I still have suspicions of sprityo, but don't care to see any single player dominating this poll right now. Competing wagons facilitate the best construction of data.

[MacDougall]

I would still very much like to hear what people think of the dialogue between DharmaHelper and I when this day phase was still very young. We argued for a bit over the case I have stated against him, and my own preconceptions and bias will inherently infect my views of that interaction. I want external perspectives.

This would probably be a good enough starting point.

I have no problem lynching Dharmahelper today and would support it.

[ColinIsCool]

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

Because Sprityo is scum obviously. You can see it by the way his wagon has had this passive resistance against it.

So you're saying Jay is scum, as the person leading the flip? I... don't want to buy that but I'll keep this moment in my back pocket.

Nah that's not really what I mean. I mean generally there is a passive resistance against the sprityo lynch that to me makes little sense. I get the sense that there has been some voices pushing agendas around. Perhaps Jay, perhaps MP, perhaps Colin, perhaps others. Can't be all of them.

And, as always, maybe I'm just wrong.

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

You are more comfortable with Kyle getting lynched here than sprityo because?

I feel I have good reasons to vote both right now. Not much but they’re there. If it were Kyle who had gotten the early lead then I noticed suss stuff from sprit I would have voted in the opposite way. It’s more about having the discussion than making a decision right now

[ColinIsCool]

My chest hurts after typing that much

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I still need to do my MP test. I hope I remember tonight before I go to sleep.

Another dialogue I want to see: does anyone out there view the MacDougall/sprityo combat as being civilian-on-civilian? That is not my impression, but I want to hear from dissenters.

I will be back later.

[MacDougall]

But you said you are more comfortable with Kyle as an option than sprityo. What is comfortable about Kyle as an option for you? Kyle is a complete question mark to me almost always and I am never comfortable. I don't like your choice of words.

[MacDougall]

That was @colin

[MacDougall]

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

I at least agree with the first sentence here. I still have suspicions of sprityo, but don't care to see any single player dominating this poll right now. Competing wagons facilitate the best construction of data.

I agree, but I also am not used to seeing it play out.

Jay here's a proposition for you before you bounce.

In my opinion we have a larger than normal volume of active participation in this game. In my view active participation is good because it forces the scum to continue to refine their perspectives which eventually leads to a collapse in logic that's visible, sooner. Basically "they can't hide forever".

With that in mind, I am very tempted to lead us towards removing the lower participants sooner so that we can maintain this high level of participation and remove those who are not giving us the ability to leverage the aforementioned perspective. ie. Marmot, Dharmahelper and to a lesser extent Colin and Turnip Head.

[Tsaiah]

There was one point I found compelling in your ISO of Dharma yes, but it's not compelling enough to make me want him lynched over M Plus 7. What was the thing about kyle? The russ thing yes, I can see your perspective, I asked Russ to explain where he was going with that and I'll go from there with that read.

I'm referring to his request that a handful of players give him their "histories".

I don't think I have 'one guy in my crosshairs' at all, he's my top suspect but he's not my only suspect and I think I've made that clear at least.

I wouldn't say you've made it clear. You've hinted, you've suggested, and you've dabbled, but you haven't made it clear.

Oh yeah, I did wonder where he was going with that read, I'm waiting on his response to M Plus 7's question about that.

And well okay fair enough, but what gave you the impression M Plus 7 was the only guy in my crosshairs?

[mention]Infected_alien8_[/mention]

Okay, i'm mostly popcorning this stretch rn to see all the responses to responses to responses first...

But i gotta say, i also very much have that impression.


Like at this point itt, you respond to and recognize points about other people, but...don't seem to actively pursue any of them to anywhere? So far, you always just come right back to M Plus 7--while in between doing that, you sound for all the world to me like you're talking to him as if you at least have some consideration for him as town. The two halves of that sentence aren't adding up for me. And i'm also getting some impression that your M Plus 7 case is mostly, realistically...one note?

You writing off M Plus 7 and Aby's superfast finding each other town in wildcards as "a special case" is particularly troubling to me right now. Like you literally just saw that, just lived through it (and as scum, too, so you even knew it was real then, from the get go). Why the immediate dismissal of it as "a special case?"

Lemme throw some stuff at you, in case you're town in a tunnel here (stuff i've said elsewhere itt already, but here's some probably really relevant points all in one place):

- Aby and I have extensive experience playing together, and I usually find them as town early in a game (and love playing with them)
- I've become friends with M Plus since y'all's qualifier, and we've discovered that our minds work a lot alike (to the point that i predicted he and Aby would "get there" on each other fast as town, and mesh really well)
- The way M Plus 7 is treating me here is SUPER ALIKE to the way he got there fast on Aby there
- I also got to a pretty damn confident take on him early, and am also expressing that in very strong terms, and you're putting me in your top towns and him unwaveringly in your rifle scope

So okay, how again is that a "special case" before--like why do you even think that enough to dismiss it offhand that way? Is there something behind that I don't know about, or...?

Does entering any of the above into your considerations make you rethink anything?