DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[abyssum]

I think @Tsaiah said she was feeling good about Robot in a similar fashion as I was (with the thread entrance and as of Page 18) but I don't know what she thought thereafter, and she should have more meta on her than I do (?) but so should @abyssum so...

Curious on both of their updated takes.

i've never played with Robot before, i only know them through IMH's discord server

[abyssum]

shoot, i forgot simon is watching this game, i've been saying so many curse words, im sorry

well shit

[Kylemii]

i'm out of mana

[MacDougall]

i'm out of mana

Did you see the MTG game I submitted in drawing board?

[sprityo]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

[abyssum]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

does self-centered naturally follow to somebody being mafia to you, or is this a question of playstyle compatibility for you?

[sprityo]

Can we also talk about Robot? Please? What does everyone think of her?

Yes, let's! I liked Robot at first, and haven't as much lately.

So we are lynching Alien day 1.

Welcome new guy. Time 2 die.

Sooo, I actually do feel super bad about this. But Alien, Robot, and you seem to be the top 3 suspect. If we're not going to lynch one of those 3, whom do you propose?

@JaggedJimmyJay lemme find the X-Men exchange, since it seems relevant.
@sprityo Did you ever go back and read my iso?

It’s 2:30 AM, I just downed a monster

And read 12 pages of this hellscape

No I havent, yet

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

Can you point to a post he made that challenged your previous views of his play?

[MacDougall]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

Are you capable of playing the game without insulting people who suspect you? Honestly, just wondering? Because it's a recurrent pattern that I get insulted by you when I suspect you.

Again though what you are saying here is clearly untrue given that the initial reason you "suspected me" was hardly because I was being self centred and looking outside myself. It was very demonstrably because I wanted to lynch you.

1. Mac is supicious of Sprityo
2. Sprityo decides to ISO
3. Surprise! Mac looks bad!

Brah.

Breh.

Broh.

Nah dog.

[Kylemii]

i'm out of mana

Did you see the MTG game I submitted in drawing board?

MTG is..... "Metroid..... The Game"?

[Kylemii]

Mortal the Gombat

[Kylemii]

Mario! There's Goombas

[sprityo]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

does self-centered naturally follow to somebody being mafia to you, or is this a question of playstyle compatibility for you?

It’s not that, it was the matter of not contributing to the thread outside of the people who in any aspect poked at him. The moment mac started contributing to the overall well being of the thread I started to reconsider if maybe I jumped the gun on him

[speedchuck]

Lol *reminiscing* dammit Luna I still can’t believe we lost that game on a dice roll.

I played TOO supatown lol I should have sabotaged more at the beginning but I felt I couldn’t tip my hand. I really probably could have though considering how easily speedchuck looks scummy when he’s town.

Everyone always thinks I'm scummy.

I'm not scum, I'm just a psychopath.

im catching up on this thread and

I think I’m at fault for making everyone believe Speedchuck is always mafia

I kinda beat that horse into the the dirt relentlessly

MP is referencing an IRL game we played together. It's not just you.

Town speed just looks suspish if you're used to mafia speed.

[MacDougall]

I find it hard to believe that the thread consensus is so focused on me and the new players given we are some of the only players that are actually trying to solve this badboy and you've got sprityo being a hypocrite, DharmaHelper and Turnip Head hardly giving a shit and Marmot not even posting.

Makes you wonder who's really in charge around here.

I might band together with these hot new posters and make a run for team captain I think.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I find it hard to believe that the thread consensus is so focused on me and the new players given we are some of the only players that are actually trying to solve this badboy and you've got sprityo being a hypocrite, DharmaHelper and Turnip Head hardly giving a shit and Marmot not even posting.

Makes you wonder who's really in charge around here.

I might band together with these hot new posters and make a run for team captain I think.

What is your present read on Turnip Head?

[MacDougall]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

does self-centered naturally follow to somebody being mafia to you, or is this a question of playstyle compatibility for you?

It’s not that, it was the matter of not contributing to the thread outside of the people who in any aspect poked at him. The moment mac started contributing to the overall well being of the thread I started to reconsider if maybe I jumped the gun on him

Hahahaha.

Mate.

Are you going to make me wall post you to death? I really don't want to dedicate the next 30 minutes of my life. You're this close to inexplicably surviving day one sprityo. Keep pretending not to be here and you'll live another day.

[MacDougall]

I find it hard to believe that the thread consensus is so focused on me and the new players given we are some of the only players that are actually trying to solve this badboy and you've got sprityo being a hypocrite, DharmaHelper and Turnip Head hardly giving a shit and Marmot not even posting.

Makes you wonder who's really in charge around here.

I might band together with these hot new posters and make a run for team captain I think.

What is your present read on Turnip Head?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: sprityo] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

~nothing~

Do you get nothing from the way he handled your wagon just now?

[Kylemii]

MacDougall who do you think should be lynched today

tell me about sprito

[Kylemii]

wait you just told jay about sprityo i can just read that I guess

[sprityo]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

Are you capable of playing the game without insulting people who suspect you? Honestly, just wondering? Because it's a recurrent pattern that I get insulted by you when I suspect you.

Again though what you are saying here is clearly untrue given that the initial reason you "suspected me" was hardly because I was being self centred and looking outside myself. It was very demonstrably because I wanted to lynch you.

1. Mac is supicious of Sprityo
2. Sprityo decides to ISO
3. Surprise! Mac looks bad!

Brah.

Breh.

Broh.

Nah dog.

Emotion is one hell of a thing guy, you just happened to be the causing factor get me to overhaul my entire morning and you came out looking scummy at the end of it.

You’ve got no one to blame but yourself for the entire thing. What started off as a simple little “oh haha Mac isn’t scum” turned into this god damn mess.

(Also I’m sorry for the insults I just am really heated about you in particular mac and that’s how it’s been coming out of me)

[sprityo]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

does self-centered naturally follow to somebody being mafia to you, or is this a question of playstyle compatibility for you?

It’s not that, it was the matter of not contributing to the thread outside of the people who in any aspect poked at him. The moment mac started contributing to the overall well being of the thread I started to reconsider if maybe I jumped the gun on him

Hahahaha.

Mate.

Are you going to make me wall post you to death? I really don't want to dedicate the next 30 minutes of my life. You're this close to inexplicably surviving day one sprityo. Keep pretending not to be here and you'll live another day.

See it’s things like this that drive me to insult you. I’m here when I can be. What more do you want?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

Can you point to a post he made that challenged your previous views of his play?

[mention]sprityo[/mention]

[sprityo]

I guess being fucking honest about this game isn’t gonna help myseld.

Maybe I should take mac’s advice and go away

But no thats what he wants, and it’ll actually be worse for me cause then I can’t defend myself

It’s already bad enough I have 10 pages to catch up on everytime I check the thread, allowing for name tarnishing


Linki: right sorry, got distracted, please hold

[JaggedJimmyJay]

But no thats what he wants, and it’ll actually be worse for me cause then I can’t defend myself

Does this mean you think Mac is bad?

[Infected_alien8_]

Also Jay can you walk me through your flip on Mac exactly?

It's difficult to describe without telling the full tale of the history of MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay in Mafia games (a tale stretching back about seven years now), but I will try to be brief:

Mac has a pretty keen understanding of the things that I look for and the strategies that I favor when I am a civilian, certainly better than most. Indeed, he has said more than once as a mafioso that his primary strategic objective was to fool me, because where I go the game tends to follow. A recent example can be seen in the side mission Assassination Classroom, a game which may have been my worst ever and simultaneously one of Mac's best on The Syndicate. He deserves a ton of credit for that. When my reads are shite and/or my strategic motions aren't leading me somewhere productive while Mac is not aligned with me, I have every expectation that he'd want to capitalize on that. He has said himself in this game that when my eye of suspicion falls upon players, their lifespans shorten:

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

I said he didn't know what my stance is, not that he wouldn't like it. I did say "and you hate it", meaning he hates not knowing, because I'm an asshole.

I will reiterate that the only thing I hate is that you have a scum read on me. The logistics of it do not affect my emotions. There are certain players that when their eye turns towards you, your lifespan in the game immediately becomes shorter so forgive me for being immediately in fight or flight mode under duress from you.

And if he knows my eye of suspicion is pointed in the wrong direction, he will attempt to reap the benefits. So I return to this post:

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

I at least agree with the first sentence here. I still have suspicions of sprityo, but don't care to see any single player dominating this poll right now. Competing wagons facilitate the best construction of data.

I agree, but I also am not used to seeing it play out.

Jay here's a proposition for you before you bounce.

In my opinion we have a larger than normal volume of active participation in this game. In my view active participation is good because it forces the scum to continue to refine their perspectives which eventually leads to a collapse in logic that's visible, sooner. Basically "they can't hide forever".

With that in mind, I am very tempted to lead us towards removing the lower participants sooner so that we can maintain this high level of participation and remove those who are not giving us the ability to leverage the aforementioned perspective. ie. Marmot, Dharmahelper and to a lesser extent Colin and Turnip Head.

and the follow-up directed against Turnip head, I find myself narrowing my gaze. The rationale for lynching Turnip Head looks like shit to me. Mac expects a red flip, and thinks that red flip will clear a bunch of people. The reasons he provided for those clears are weak. The more important problem is that if Turnip Head flips civilian, the promise of information is nill, and Mac doesn't care. So, the entire exercise looks bogus to me.

And I have to note that when he brought up the idea in the first place, he specifically brought it to my attention. This is important because in recent memory I have tended to favor POE lynches of this variety on Day 1 instead of the larger cases against larger contributors, because I don't believe civilians are good enough (any of them) to make effective Day 1 cases against active players on a consistent basis. Mac is well aware of my tendencies, and probably expects that I'd be willing to accept a Turnip Head lynch purely for POE. In many games he wouldn't be wrong about that.

If Turnip Head gets lynched though based upon a MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay-driven charge, but then flips civilian -- which of the two of us takes more shit for it? It'd probably be me, because I'm the louder player and I draw tinfoil like turds draw flies. This is a scenario Mac would like to create.

I recognize the tinfoil nature of all this, as a lot of pieces have to come together for it to be sensible. I probably don't care about the idea for most players, but with MacDougall I am hyper-aware.

Alright, thanks. That actually does make a lot of sense to me. The fact he didn't seem bothered by turnip's potential Town slip is concerning, I asked him about it earlier but I think I'm still waiting for a response.

When is the deadline by the way? If it's soon I'm not sure I'm going to be able to catch up

[sprityo]

But no thats what he wants, and it’ll actually be worse for me cause then I can’t defend myself

Does this mean you think Mac is bad?

Let me get these quotes first, then I’ll tell you

[MacDougall]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

Are you capable of playing the game without insulting people who suspect you? Honestly, just wondering? Because it's a recurrent pattern that I get insulted by you when I suspect you.

Again though what you are saying here is clearly untrue given that the initial reason you "suspected me" was hardly because I was being self centred and looking outside myself. It was very demonstrably because I wanted to lynch you.

1. Mac is supicious of Sprityo
2. Sprityo decides to ISO
3. Surprise! Mac looks bad!

Brah.

Breh.

Broh.

Nah dog.

Emotion is one hell of a thing guy, you just happened to be the causing factor get me to overhaul my entire morning and you came out looking scummy at the end of it.

You’ve got no one to blame but yourself for the entire thing. What started off as a simple little “oh haha Mac isn’t scum” turned into this god damn mess.

(Also I’m sorry for the insults I just am really heated about you in particular mac and that’s how it’s been coming out of me)

I see you've met Jay.

[MacDougall]

MacDougall who do you think should be lynched today

tell me about sprito

Nice person. Obviously Mafia though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

When is the deadline by the way? If it's soon I'm not sure I'm going to be able to catch up

It's in about 3.5 hours. You can see the exact time at the top of the poll, as long as you have your time zone set correctly.

[MacDougall]

~nothing~

Do you get nothing from the way he handled your wagon just now?

Nah I bolded the part in my previous comment that answers your question.

The way he engaged me looked townie. But I'm not about to give him a hall pass for it.

[abyssum]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

does self-centered naturally follow to somebody being mafia to you, or is this a question of playstyle compatibility for you?

It’s not that, it was the matter of not contributing to the thread outside of the people who in any aspect poked at him. The moment mac started contributing to the overall well being of the thread I started to reconsider if maybe I jumped the gun on him

there's a difference between "not contributing" (not posting game-relevant information or attempting to solve) and "not contributing to the overall well being of the thread" (this is more about thread health and is less AI from my perspective). which one are you referring to here? because the distinction is important

if it's the first one then oh boy do we have some disagreements about Mac's play so far.

[sprityo]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

I quickly ISO checked TH, Colin, DH and Marmot for post counts and found the former three with far higher post counts than I thought. That they are not central to discussion pings me.

I am want to give Marmot a pass for it. I know Colin will continue to post whether he's scum or not and have seen him tie himself in knots to the point where he couldn't get out of it before, very recently, as scum.

TH straight up called Dharmahelper town. If TH flips bad I am calling Dharmahelper town. I do not think a scum TH calls a teammate DH town the way he did.

He called sprityo his spirit animal. I do not think a scum TH engages with a scum teammate sprityo in this way.

Kylemii was visibly taken aback by TH giving DH a town clear. It is both a good look for Kyle and I cannot see them as scum teammates because of it.

I know these are all simple things but I can't sense any of these three interactions being scum/scum.

Going on the post I made before that I directed at Jay I would like one of DH or TH lynched today because neither of them are living up to what I feel their standards of contribution are which in THIS particular game where we as town have the benefit of a significantly active thread, makes me want to get rid of them early as they are not going to allow themselves to, "tie themselves in knots" the way a Colin will.

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

This post in which mac goes through individually his options he put forth for an information lynch, he backs up how that will benefit the town as a whole and I thought that looked good on him

[MacDougall]

Also Jay can you walk me through your flip on Mac exactly?

It's difficult to describe without telling the full tale of the history of MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay in Mafia games (a tale stretching back about seven years now), but I will try to be brief:

Mac has a pretty keen understanding of the things that I look for and the strategies that I favor when I am a civilian, certainly better than most. Indeed, he has said more than once as a mafioso that his primary strategic objective was to fool me, because where I go the game tends to follow. A recent example can be seen in the side mission Assassination Classroom, a game which may have been my worst ever and simultaneously one of Mac's best on The Syndicate. He deserves a ton of credit for that. When my reads are shite and/or my strategic motions aren't leading me somewhere productive while Mac is not aligned with me, I have every expectation that he'd want to capitalize on that. He has said himself in this game that when my eye of suspicion falls upon players, their lifespans shorten:

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

I said he didn't know what my stance is, not that he wouldn't like it. I did say "and you hate it", meaning he hates not knowing, because I'm an asshole.

I will reiterate that the only thing I hate is that you have a scum read on me. The logistics of it do not affect my emotions. There are certain players that when their eye turns towards you, your lifespan in the game immediately becomes shorter so forgive me for being immediately in fight or flight mode under duress from you.

And if he knows my eye of suspicion is pointed in the wrong direction, he will attempt to reap the benefits. So I return to this post:

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

I at least agree with the first sentence here. I still have suspicions of sprityo, but don't care to see any single player dominating this poll right now. Competing wagons facilitate the best construction of data.

I agree, but I also am not used to seeing it play out.

Jay here's a proposition for you before you bounce.

In my opinion we have a larger than normal volume of active participation in this game. In my view active participation is good because it forces the scum to continue to refine their perspectives which eventually leads to a collapse in logic that's visible, sooner. Basically "they can't hide forever".

With that in mind, I am very tempted to lead us towards removing the lower participants sooner so that we can maintain this high level of participation and remove those who are not giving us the ability to leverage the aforementioned perspective. ie. Marmot, Dharmahelper and to a lesser extent Colin and Turnip Head.

and the follow-up directed against Turnip head, I find myself narrowing my gaze. The rationale for lynching Turnip Head looks like shit to me. Mac expects a red flip, and thinks that red flip will clear a bunch of people. The reasons he provided for those clears are weak. The more important problem is that if Turnip Head flips civilian, the promise of information is nill, and Mac doesn't care. So, the entire exercise looks bogus to me.

And I have to note that when he brought up the idea in the first place, he specifically brought it to my attention. This is important because in recent memory I have tended to favor POE lynches of this variety on Day 1 instead of the larger cases against larger contributors, because I don't believe civilians are good enough (any of them) to make effective Day 1 cases against active players on a consistent basis. Mac is well aware of my tendencies, and probably expects that I'd be willing to accept a Turnip Head lynch purely for POE. In many games he wouldn't be wrong about that.

If Turnip Head gets lynched though based upon a MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay-driven charge, but then flips civilian -- which of the two of us takes more shit for it? It'd probably be me, because I'm the louder player and I draw tinfoil like turds draw flies. This is a scenario Mac would like to create.

I recognize the tinfoil nature of all this, as a lot of pieces have to come together for it to be sensible. I probably don't care about the idea for most players, but with MacDougall I am hyper-aware.

Alright, thanks. That actually does make a lot of sense to me. The fact he didn't seem bothered by turnip's potential Town slip is concerning, I asked him about it earlier but I think I'm still waiting for a response.

When is the deadline by the way? If it's soon I'm not sure I'm going to be able to catch up

What town slip?

[MacDougall]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

I quickly ISO checked TH, Colin, DH and Marmot for post counts and found the former three with far higher post counts than I thought. That they are not central to discussion pings me.

I am want to give Marmot a pass for it. I know Colin will continue to post whether he's scum or not and have seen him tie himself in knots to the point where he couldn't get out of it before, very recently, as scum.

TH straight up called Dharmahelper town. If TH flips bad I am calling Dharmahelper town. I do not think a scum TH calls a teammate DH town the way he did.

He called sprityo his spirit animal. I do not think a scum TH engages with a scum teammate sprityo in this way.

Kylemii was visibly taken aback by TH giving DH a town clear. It is both a good look for Kyle and I cannot see them as scum teammates because of it.

I know these are all simple things but I can't sense any of these three interactions being scum/scum.

Going on the post I made before that I directed at Jay I would like one of DH or TH lynched today because neither of them are living up to what I feel their standards of contribution are which in THIS particular game where we as town have the benefit of a significantly active thread, makes me want to get rid of them early as they are not going to allow themselves to, "tie themselves in knots" the way a Colin will.

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

This post in which mac goes through individually his options he put forth for an information lynch, he backs up how that will benefit the town as a whole and I thought that looked good on him

Here's another person that liked the post you said sucked Jay!

[Infected_alien8_]

Daisy: I have a migraine and I'm real stressed out with the move but thanks for taking me to lunch this is nice.

MP: What? Huh? Sorry, DH Just posted a hilarious joke. I *GOTTA* respond to this with at least four posts in a row. God damn that's funny.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This post in which mac goes through individually his options he put forth for an information lynch, he backs up how that will benefit the town as a whole and I thought that looked good on him

Do you think we should follow the advice he laid out in that post?

[sprityo]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

does self-centered naturally follow to somebody being mafia to you, or is this a question of playstyle compatibility for you?

It’s not that, it was the matter of not contributing to the thread outside of the people who in any aspect poked at him. The moment mac started contributing to the overall well being of the thread I started to reconsider if maybe I jumped the gun on him

there's a difference between "not contributing" (not posting game-relevant information or attempting to solve) and "not contributing to the overall well being of the thread" (this is more about thread health and is less AI from my perspective). which one are you referring to here? because the distinction is important

if it's the first one then oh boy do we have some disagreements about Mac's play so far.

You’ve lost me, can you explain the differences better?

[Infected_alien8_]

Also Jay can you walk me through your flip on Mac exactly?

It's difficult to describe without telling the full tale of the history of MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay in Mafia games (a tale stretching back about seven years now), but I will try to be brief:

Mac has a pretty keen understanding of the things that I look for and the strategies that I favor when I am a civilian, certainly better than most. Indeed, he has said more than once as a mafioso that his primary strategic objective was to fool me, because where I go the game tends to follow. A recent example can be seen in the side mission Assassination Classroom, a game which may have been my worst ever and simultaneously one of Mac's best on The Syndicate. He deserves a ton of credit for that. When my reads are shite and/or my strategic motions aren't leading me somewhere productive while Mac is not aligned with me, I have every expectation that he'd want to capitalize on that. He has said himself in this game that when my eye of suspicion falls upon players, their lifespans shorten:

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

I said he didn't know what my stance is, not that he wouldn't like it. I did say "and you hate it", meaning he hates not knowing, because I'm an asshole.

I will reiterate that the only thing I hate is that you have a scum read on me. The logistics of it do not affect my emotions. There are certain players that when their eye turns towards you, your lifespan in the game immediately becomes shorter so forgive me for being immediately in fight or flight mode under duress from you.

And if he knows my eye of suspicion is pointed in the wrong direction, he will attempt to reap the benefits. So I return to this post:

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

I at least agree with the first sentence here. I still have suspicions of sprityo, but don't care to see any single player dominating this poll right now. Competing wagons facilitate the best construction of data.

I agree, but I also am not used to seeing it play out.

Jay here's a proposition for you before you bounce.

In my opinion we have a larger than normal volume of active participation in this game. In my view active participation is good because it forces the scum to continue to refine their perspectives which eventually leads to a collapse in logic that's visible, sooner. Basically "they can't hide forever".

With that in mind, I am very tempted to lead us towards removing the lower participants sooner so that we can maintain this high level of participation and remove those who are not giving us the ability to leverage the aforementioned perspective. ie. Marmot, Dharmahelper and to a lesser extent Colin and Turnip Head.

and the follow-up directed against Turnip head, I find myself narrowing my gaze. The rationale for lynching Turnip Head looks like shit to me. Mac expects a red flip, and thinks that red flip will clear a bunch of people. The reasons he provided for those clears are weak. The more important problem is that if Turnip Head flips civilian, the promise of information is nill, and Mac doesn't care. So, the entire exercise looks bogus to me.

And I have to note that when he brought up the idea in the first place, he specifically brought it to my attention. This is important because in recent memory I have tended to favor POE lynches of this variety on Day 1 instead of the larger cases against larger contributors, because I don't believe civilians are good enough (any of them) to make effective Day 1 cases against active players on a consistent basis. Mac is well aware of my tendencies, and probably expects that I'd be willing to accept a Turnip Head lynch purely for POE. In many games he wouldn't be wrong about that.

If Turnip Head gets lynched though based upon a MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay-driven charge, but then flips civilian -- which of the two of us takes more shit for it? It'd probably be me, because I'm the louder player and I draw tinfoil like turds draw flies. This is a scenario Mac would like to create.

I recognize the tinfoil nature of all this, as a lot of pieces have to come together for it to be sensible. I probably don't care about the idea for most players, but with MacDougall I am hyper-aware.

Alright, thanks. That actually does make a lot of sense to me. The fact he didn't seem bothered by turnip's potential Town slip is concerning, I asked him about it earlier but I think I'm still waiting for a response.

When is the deadline by the way? If it's soon I'm not sure I'm going to be able to catch up

What town slip?

town flip* sorry, lol

What about turnip made you think he was more likely Mafia than not, to want to lynch him based off of the results you'd get if he flipped Mafia?

[MacDougall]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

sprityo I need to know what inspired this turn on Mac.

He stopped being self centered and looked outside himself, providing a better reasoning to his reads and interacting with other players.

does self-centered naturally follow to somebody being mafia to you, or is this a question of playstyle compatibility for you?

It’s not that, it was the matter of not contributing to the thread outside of the people who in any aspect poked at him. The moment mac started contributing to the overall well being of the thread I started to reconsider if maybe I jumped the gun on him

there's a difference between "not contributing" (not posting game-relevant information or attempting to solve) and "not contributing to the overall well being of the thread" (this is more about thread health and is less AI from my perspective). which one are you referring to here? because the distinction is important

if it's the first one then oh boy do we have some disagreements about Mac's play so far.

Does that mean you think I'm bad for game health?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Here's another person that liked the post you said sucked Jay!

I still think it's horseshit that you'd clear DharmaHelper and sprityo based upon "my spirit animal" and "DH is town".

[Turnip Head]

Milking the Goalie

[MacDougall]

Also Jay can you walk me through your flip on Mac exactly?

It's difficult to describe without telling the full tale of the history of MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay in Mafia games (a tale stretching back about seven years now), but I will try to be brief:

Mac has a pretty keen understanding of the things that I look for and the strategies that I favor when I am a civilian, certainly better than most. Indeed, he has said more than once as a mafioso that his primary strategic objective was to fool me, because where I go the game tends to follow. A recent example can be seen in the side mission Assassination Classroom, a game which may have been my worst ever and simultaneously one of Mac's best on The Syndicate. He deserves a ton of credit for that. When my reads are shite and/or my strategic motions aren't leading me somewhere productive while Mac is not aligned with me, I have every expectation that he'd want to capitalize on that. He has said himself in this game that when my eye of suspicion falls upon players, their lifespans shorten:

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

I said he didn't know what my stance is, not that he wouldn't like it. I did say "and you hate it", meaning he hates not knowing, because I'm an asshole.

I will reiterate that the only thing I hate is that you have a scum read on me. The logistics of it do not affect my emotions. There are certain players that when their eye turns towards you, your lifespan in the game immediately becomes shorter so forgive me for being immediately in fight or flight mode under duress from you.

And if he knows my eye of suspicion is pointed in the wrong direction, he will attempt to reap the benefits. So I return to this post:

I changed my vote because I didn’t want a runaway on sprit for baddies to easily latch onto. I’m more comfortable with Kyle as an option too.

I at least agree with the first sentence here. I still have suspicions of sprityo, but don't care to see any single player dominating this poll right now. Competing wagons facilitate the best construction of data.

I agree, but I also am not used to seeing it play out.

Jay here's a proposition for you before you bounce.

In my opinion we have a larger than normal volume of active participation in this game. In my view active participation is good because it forces the scum to continue to refine their perspectives which eventually leads to a collapse in logic that's visible, sooner. Basically "they can't hide forever".

With that in mind, I am very tempted to lead us towards removing the lower participants sooner so that we can maintain this high level of participation and remove those who are not giving us the ability to leverage the aforementioned perspective. ie. Marmot, Dharmahelper and to a lesser extent Colin and Turnip Head.

and the follow-up directed against Turnip head, I find myself narrowing my gaze. The rationale for lynching Turnip Head looks like shit to me. Mac expects a red flip, and thinks that red flip will clear a bunch of people. The reasons he provided for those clears are weak. The more important problem is that if Turnip Head flips civilian, the promise of information is nill, and Mac doesn't care. So, the entire exercise looks bogus to me.

And I have to note that when he brought up the idea in the first place, he specifically brought it to my attention. This is important because in recent memory I have tended to favor POE lynches of this variety on Day 1 instead of the larger cases against larger contributors, because I don't believe civilians are good enough (any of them) to make effective Day 1 cases against active players on a consistent basis. Mac is well aware of my tendencies, and probably expects that I'd be willing to accept a Turnip Head lynch purely for POE. In many games he wouldn't be wrong about that.

If Turnip Head gets lynched though based upon a MacDougall and JaggedJimmyJay-driven charge, but then flips civilian -- which of the two of us takes more shit for it? It'd probably be me, because I'm the louder player and I draw tinfoil like turds draw flies. This is a scenario Mac would like to create.

I recognize the tinfoil nature of all this, as a lot of pieces have to come together for it to be sensible. I probably don't care about the idea for most players, but with MacDougall I am hyper-aware.

Alright, thanks. That actually does make a lot of sense to me. The fact he didn't seem bothered by turnip's potential Town slip is concerning, I asked him about it earlier but I think I'm still waiting for a response.

When is the deadline by the way? If it's soon I'm not sure I'm going to be able to catch up

What town slip?

town flip* sorry, lol

What about turnip made you think he was more likely Mafia than not, to want to lynch him based off of the results you'd get if he flipped Mafia?

At the time Turnip Head was in a list of players who I deemed as underperforming as far as their general standard is concerned. Of the players in that list I had the least reason to give him a pass on it. Of the players that remained his flip would leave the most in thread connections based on what I could observe. That was literally it. I am shocked and appalled that this clearly town-leaning reasoning near got me lynched and I put the blame squarely at the feet of Golden.

[MacDougall]

Here's another person that liked the post you said sucked Jay!

I still think it's horseshit that you'd clear DharmaHelper and sprityo based upon "my spirit animal" and "DH is town".

You think that I am incapable of seeing a simple post and making a tone read on it with strong conviction?

Do you actually not know how I play at all?

[sprityo]

This post in which mac goes through individually his options he put forth for an information lynch, he backs up how that will benefit the town as a whole and I thought that looked good on him

Do you think we should follow the advice he laid out in that post?

I think its a valid option, and technically appeals to me through mac’s eyes.

However, it can, and could very well be an easy way to get pressure off himself. In where mac thought he could get an easy lynch out of me, he was met with resistance and now has to backtrack to another lynch. Only this time he adds understandable reasons it’s to lynch XYZ unlike previously.

[Tangrowth]

Alright I’m back! On phone for a little bit here

[Infected_alien8_]

What the actual fuck btw is going on with Kyle and Colin still

Good question. I’d like other people to weigh in because I’m not in a position to assess Kyle anymore on it, we’re just going to talk past each other.

To me it reads as two town misinterpreting each other/fighting each other

[MacDougall]

This post in which mac goes through individually his options he put forth for an information lynch, he backs up how that will benefit the town as a whole and I thought that looked good on him

Do you think we should follow the advice he laid out in that post?

I think its a valid option, and technically appeals to me through mac’s eyes.

However, it can, and could very well be an easy way to get pressure off himself. In where mac thought he could get an easy lynch out of me, he was met with resistance and now has to backtrack to another lynch. Only this time he adds understandable reasons it’s to lynch XYZ unlike previously.

Hey look he is doing that thing that Russ said made Alien bad!!!