DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

His backdown #2 wasn't him going back on his reads though, it was him wanting to move on from stating his case because it was taxing argueing

This also feels a bit like a forced read to me, it feels like you're struggling for what to say, so you're just trying to find something you could say is suspicious, because I don't think your quotes match into your argument very well so it reads as if you made the case first and then tried to fit things into it as opposed to working bottom-up and seeing it first and then making the case

I felt like back down 2 was Sprityo attempting to shut the door on the whole issue, because he didn't want to continue engaging with Mac.
I did force myself to make a read of Mac and sprit (if that's what you mean), but I didn't have a conclusion going into it. It sort of evolved. Where else do my quotes not make since to you? I may have messed them up, or if not I can try to clarify.

I agree it's sprit trying to move on, I don't agree it was 'backing down' though, he was shutting himself off from argueing anymore about it but maintaining his stance

And no it was just that part, it feels like you were trying to twist what he did into some sort of case where you say he keeps backing down even though I don't think it fits properly

Also @M Plus 7 what do you think of robot this game right now? Hopefully that tag works but it didn't come up with the option menu thing so I'm not sure

I... am not sure. I liked her entrance and her attempts to seem grounded in the game struck me as sincere initially, but now I'm just like... I don't know. I'm not sure I like her treatment of Luna. What do you think of her?

She seems different to what I remember of her last game. Last game she listened to people's arguments, agreed, voted accordingly, then listened to counter-arguments, agreed, unvoted. It was like that all game with her. This game she's very much on her own, sort of in isolation from others' opinions. I'm not sure what to make of it though.

Yeah, I'm getting this impression too. But to be fair too she did against the grain things in Game 9 like vote for me on Day 1 and stuff like that.

She did seem more... turbulent that game maybe? I think that's what I'm picking up on. She seems more confident here.

Honestly, I feel a lot more confident here. Last time beru was the only person I knew and I hadn't played a game with her in like 5 years, and this time I've got you, alien, and tsaiah, and I've also been hanging out/lurking on various relevant discord servers. I don't feel thrown off the deep end so much. I feel like I have friends.

The reason I was trying to get Luna is because she appeared to be online right then and also I had no read on her whatsoever. I want to do the same thing to Marmot but they also never appear to be online.

some catchup-y remarks:
I feel like I should comment on being accused as scum but like, idk what you want out of me. I want to get a read on ppl. I'll add "posting a rainbow reads list" onto my todolist.

Spoiler: show

@Tsaiah and @abyssum and @Infected_alien8_ and @RobotNerd277 y’all are cool and fun and neat and super and we’d all be fortunate to have you around for more games okay? Okay

thank you jay <3

You definitely have friends.

[Tangrowth]

I'll consider what you said, Mac.

@M Plus 7, it'd be ideal if you could also go deeper into what has sold you on sprityo as a civilian.

Sigh. I'll ISO him with fresh eyes later too. Maybe I'm too worried about LHF town sprityo. I think just like... a fresh perspective would do me well at this point, so I'll just dig into ISOs later tonight. That's the plan anyway. When I'm feeling less... worn out.

[MacDougall]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

[Tangrowth]

I would still very much like to hear what people think of the dialogue between DharmaHelper and I when this day phase was still very young. We argued for a bit over the case I have stated against him, and my own preconceptions and bias will inherently infect my views of that interaction. I want external perspectives.

This would probably be a good enough starting point.

I still think he's probably scum until I actually see that fire from him, but... I can envision a universe where he's just a townie saying these things too.

I think it's difficult to judge because DH is just in... what's the right word...

Antagonistic mode with respect to the gamestate. I don't know that antagonism has to mean he's scum. That said he's a consistent slight scum read for me. I'll think on it.

[MacDougall]

I think a red flip Turnip Head;

1. Clears sprityo
2. Clears Dharmahelper
3. Clears Kylemii

Which would be a crazy outcome.

[Tangrowth]

I still need to do my MP test. I hope I remember tonight before I go to sleep.

Another dialogue I want to see: does anyone out there view the MacDougall/sprityo combat as being civilian-on-civilian? That is not my impression, but I want to hear from dissenters.

I will be back later.

I really wish I knew what this test was.

Do you have any reason to doubt me being town so far? I honestly feel like this (post count, tone, dogpee, you name it) is already outside of my scum range.

And... that's a good question. I tend to think there's a scum in there, but I could maybe see it as town on town. I'll try to consider that specifically when ISOing later.

[ColinIsCool]

But you said you are more comfortable with Kyle as an option than sprityo. What is comfortable about Kyle as an option for you? Kyle is a complete question mark to me almost always and I am never comfortable. I don't like your choice of words.

What I should have said was “I am also more comfortable having Kyle as an option alongside Sprit”

[ColinIsCool]

I think a red flip Turnip Head;

1. Clears sprityo
2. Clears Dharmahelper
3. Clears Kylemii

Which would be a crazy outcome.

How come

[nutella]

I... really wish speedchuck was in this game right now so I could ask him about Luna.

haha, he knows all and refuses to talk about the game.

speedchuck

WHY DID YOU NOT PLAY THIS GAME

I NEED YOUR HELP IN READING YOUR WIFE PLEASEEEEEEEEE

"YOUR WIFE PLEASEEEEEEEEE"

read as: yo͝or wīf plēz
Unsure what to do with the excess EEEEEEEEs in the pronunciation

Meanings:
Your - a posessive, indicating that the following object of the sentence belongs or is related to the addressed party
Wife - general term for a female spouse, in this context, referring to the spouse of the 'you' in this sentence
Please - a meaningless word meant to coerce

You're welcome. Please ask if you need more assistance with reading. As a book lover and a writer myself, I am more than qualified to help.

between this and "please expand" this thread has just been killing it with the snarky replies

[Tangrowth]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

[MacDougall]

I wonder if Turnip Head is going to come into the thread now and call me definite scum too.

[Tangrowth]

I wonder if Turnip Head is going to come into the thread now and call me definite scum too.

I never know what TH is going to do at any minute.

[MacDougall]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

I quickly ISO checked TH, Colin, DH and Marmot for post counts and found the former three with far higher post counts than I thought. That they are not central to discussion pings me.

I am want to give Marmot a pass for it. I know Colin will continue to post whether he's scum or not and have seen him tie himself in knots to the point where he couldn't get out of it before, very recently, as scum.

TH straight up called Dharmahelper town. If TH flips bad I am calling Dharmahelper town. I do not think a scum TH calls a teammate DH town the way he did.

He called sprityo his spirit animal. I do not think a scum TH engages with a scum teammate sprityo in this way.

Kylemii was visibly taken aback by TH giving DH a town clear. It is both a good look for Kyle and I cannot see them as scum teammates because of it.

I know these are all simple things but I can't sense any of these three interactions being scum/scum.

Going on the post I made before that I directed at Jay I would like one of DH or TH lynched today because neither of them are living up to what I feel their standards of contribution are which in THIS particular game where we as town have the benefit of a significantly active thread, makes me want to get rid of them early as they are not going to allow themselves to, "tie themselves in knots" the way a Colin will.

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

[nutella]

@Tsaiah and @abyssum and @Infected_alien8_ and @RobotNerd277 y’all are cool and fun and neat and super and we’d all be fortunate to have you around for more games okay? Okay

I'm regretting not playing cause you all seem super cool so I hope we get to play together in a future game!

[MacDougall]

I've changed my vote to Turnip Head. I still think sprityo is a good vote but sprityo is a more independent analysis whereas my reasons for voting Turnip Head are strategic. I think it is sound logic for him to be our day 1 lynch.

[ColinIsCool]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

I quickly ISO checked TH, Colin, DH and Marmot for post counts and found the former three with far higher post counts than I thought. That they are not central to discussion pings me.

I am want to give Marmot a pass for it. I know Colin will continue to post whether he's scum or not and have seen him tie himself in knots to the point where he couldn't get out of it before, very recently, as scum.

TH straight up called Dharmahelper town. If TH flips bad I am calling Dharmahelper town. I do not think a scum TH calls a teammate DH town the way he did.

He called sprityo his spirit animal. I do not think a scum TH engages with a scum teammate sprityo in this way.

Kylemii was visibly taken aback by TH giving DH a town clear. It is both a good look for Kyle and I cannot see them as scum teammates because of it.

I know these are all simple things but I can't sense any of these three interactions being scum/scum.

Going on the post I made before that I directed at Jay I would like one of DH or TH lynched today because neither of them are living up to what I feel their standards of contribution are which in THIS particular game where we as town have the benefit of a significantly active thread, makes me want to get rid of them early as they are not going to allow themselves to, "tie themselves in knots" the way a Colin will.

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

You said in Retro you will flat out defend teammates because people don’t expect it. Do you think TH wouldn’t do it for the same reason?

[Tangrowth]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

I quickly ISO checked TH, Colin, DH and Marmot for post counts and found the former three with far higher post counts than I thought. That they are not central to discussion pings me.

I am want to give Marmot a pass for it. I know Colin will continue to post whether he's scum or not and have seen him tie himself in knots to the point where he couldn't get out of it before, very recently, as scum.

TH straight up called Dharmahelper town. If TH flips bad I am calling Dharmahelper town. I do not think a scum TH calls a teammate DH town the way he did.

He called sprityo his spirit animal. I do not think a scum TH engages with a scum teammate sprityo in this way.

Kylemii was visibly taken aback by TH giving DH a town clear. It is both a good look for Kyle and I cannot see them as scum teammates because of it.

I know these are all simple things but I can't sense any of these three interactions being scum/scum.

Going on the post I made before that I directed at Jay I would like one of DH or TH lynched today because neither of them are living up to what I feel their standards of contribution are which in THIS particular game where we as town have the benefit of a significantly active thread, makes me want to get rid of them early as they are not going to allow themselves to, "tie themselves in knots" the way a Colin will.

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

Wow, I'm really intrigued by all of this. I'll take a look at TH's ISO myself too, but this is good stuff. I don't disagree about Colin either.

I could get behind this for sure.

[DharmaHelper]

So here's what I got fam.

I was 100% intending to read up on this shit-show all day today but every time I got close to digging in I got called away to help somebody do something or pick something up or w/e. Spent 2 days setting up a smart TV and game console, really beat. And I got shit I'm doing tomorrow too.

Anyway all I'm saying is I'll hit my groove at some point but not now. If that's suspicious, fuck it. OK. Fine.

[ColinIsCool]

I see what you’re saying about getting tied up generally, but if I may defend my play, the only reason I got so caught in Retro was because you motherfuckers towncleared half the game by D2.

[Tangrowth]

I still have to reconcile the possibility of scum Mac with what you are doing right now and slfgknqasdlignadlfg but yeah I like where your head is at right now Mac. I think.

[Tangrowth]

So here's what I got fam.

I was 100% intending to read up on this shit-show all day today but every time I got close to digging in I got called away to help somebody do something or pick something up or w/e. Spent 2 days setting up a smart TV and game console, really beat. And I got shit I'm doing tomorrow too.

Anyway all I'm saying is I'll hit my groove at some point but not now. If that's suspicious, fuck it. OK. Fine.

I actually sort of think it simultaneously looks good and bad on you?

Like it sometimes seems townie that you're so up front about it and keep engaging about it, but then it also seems scummy that you were shading me with some of it and you could at least throw out a hot take or two after barely reading some stuff, so...?

You're an enigma. I'm just waiting for hardcore DH still. I miss him.

[Tangrowth]

I see what you’re saying about getting tied up generally, but if I may defend my play, the only reason I got so caught in Retro was because you motherfuckers towncleared half the game by D2.

POE! POE! POE!

I didn't even play the game, but I'll taunt POE whenever I can.

[MacDougall]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

I quickly ISO checked TH, Colin, DH and Marmot for post counts and found the former three with far higher post counts than I thought. That they are not central to discussion pings me.

I am want to give Marmot a pass for it. I know Colin will continue to post whether he's scum or not and have seen him tie himself in knots to the point where he couldn't get out of it before, very recently, as scum.

TH straight up called Dharmahelper town. If TH flips bad I am calling Dharmahelper town. I do not think a scum TH calls a teammate DH town the way he did.

He called sprityo his spirit animal. I do not think a scum TH engages with a scum teammate sprityo in this way.

Kylemii was visibly taken aback by TH giving DH a town clear. It is both a good look for Kyle and I cannot see them as scum teammates because of it.

I know these are all simple things but I can't sense any of these three interactions being scum/scum.

Going on the post I made before that I directed at Jay I would like one of DH or TH lynched today because neither of them are living up to what I feel their standards of contribution are which in THIS particular game where we as town have the benefit of a significantly active thread, makes me want to get rid of them early as they are not going to allow themselves to, "tie themselves in knots" the way a Colin will.

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

You said in Retro you will flat out defend teammates because people don’t expect it. Do you think TH wouldn’t do it for the same reason?

Colin my man, if Turnip Head as scum is good enough to distance by publicly befriending people in the thread on day 0, knowing that someone like me would come along and civ clear his teammates AFTER he was lynched, then that's a good player and he'll get some mileage out of that deservedly. Yes it is a possibility.

I don't have the liberty of being able to do anything but read the thread at face value and assume that he was just buddying townies which seems to me a far more likely scenario, if he were to actually flip red.

If he flips civ, well we've lost a question mark civ on day 1. There are worse mislynches to be made than Turnip Head.

[DharmaHelper]

So here's what I got fam.

I was 100% intending to read up on this shit-show all day today but every time I got close to digging in I got called away to help somebody do something or pick something up or w/e. Spent 2 days setting up a smart TV and game console, really beat. And I got shit I'm doing tomorrow too.

Anyway all I'm saying is I'll hit my groove at some point but not now. If that's suspicious, fuck it. OK. Fine.

I actually sort of think it simultaneously looks good and bad on you?

Like it sometimes seems townie that you're so up front about it and keep engaging about it, but then it also seems scummy that you were shading me with some of it and you could at least throw out a hot take or two after barely reading some stuff, so...?

You're an enigma. I'm just waiting for hardcore DH still. I miss him.

Hey this is what you get when I don't want to play mafia anymore but have my buddy host a game that looks decent and needs players.

Dunno. My hot take right now is I don't think Jay is bad.

[Tangrowth]

Turnip Head being lynched D1 from a POE standpoint makes sense anyway, frankly and I'd rather give Marmot the opportunity to actually orient himself in the game given how clutch he can be in the lategame.

[DharmaHelper]

Lemme read Mac's cool big post on TH(?) and see what I think

[Russtifinko]

infected_alien_8 ISO by Russti

The Good:

I went into this read thinking Alien was backing off from every suspicion. That's actually not entirely the case. He's stuck to his MP guns all game so far, and he expressed a definite (positive) opinion about Colin pretty early on (even if he did later forget why he felt good about Colin).

So those things are worth some brownie points.

The Bad:

Side note: I realized reading back that Jay had pointed both 1) the waffliness and 2) the buddying of Jay before. Kudos to JJJ on those. I already wrote most of this post, though, and I tink the way I highlight it might help some people. So it stays. My point 3 is still new, though.

1. MP will remember that in high school English class, Mr. Goldfuss once told us about an analysis that was done on Hitler's speeches. A univeristy group had apparently analyzed a large number of them line by line and found that nearly every one had a net "opinion content" (I'm paraphrasing here) of 0. What they meant was, every time Hitler expressed an opinion in a speech, he offset it by saying the opposite thing with about the same intensity somewhere else in the speech. This made him very appealing, because everyone in a crowd could find something to agree with him about. (Mr. Goldfuss was weird, and recommended we try to follow this model for some speeches.) Mr. Goldfuss also lied a lot, and it's possible he made up that story entirely, but the core of it applies really well to some posts by Alien. Let's play a game: I'll post an Alien quote, highlight anything where he expresses a positive opinion in green, and highlight anything with a negative opinion in red. I think we'll find quite a few offsetting posts.

Disclaimer: it is Day 0, so I'm not expecting anyone to have iron-clad reads from the get-go. No single one of these is damning, but there are a LOT of these suckers.

Hey everyone!

Pleased to meet you all, very excited to play this game with everyone!

I've read through the thread and I'm suspicious of M Plus 7, slight town-read on Tsai, I want to town-read Jagged but M Plus 7 says they're good at acting Townie so I'm a bit reluctant to do that but I've felt like they've been genuinely hunting so far rather than faking it, and I wanted to town-read Mac based on tone but I think they might have possibly slipped?

First post ever. Offers some reads on Tsai, JJJ, and noncommital on Mac

Okay, thanks. So basically, you think it seems reasonable that he's confident due to his past games, and therefore, as a Townie, that confidence would translate into confident reads, whereas as Mafia he'd be more cautious?

That's my best guess, yes.

The nice thing about MP is that he is never going to stop posting, even when he shouldn't be posting, and we'll have every opportunity to critically assess whatever he is doing.

Alright, thanks. That perspective does make sense to me, but I can also see worlds where he does this as Mafia, either because he's aware he might need to come off as more confident, or because he's confident enough to pocket people, so I don't want to give too much credit to that theory personally

Also despite her reasonable explanation for it, aby's kind of reluctance to have much of an opinion on M Plus 7 is pinging me

Look at Tsaiah asking questions and shit.

TSAIAH IS PURE AS FUCK

I WILL CUT ANYONE THAT KILLS HER

Again the confidence in her purity even though you've never played a full game with her so presumably don't know her that well pings me. I agree she looks like she's genuinely solving but I also think she could be faking it, and I don't share your confidence in her being so pure to that degree, which is why it pings me

Two separate reads here: Net neutral on Tsaiah, but still suspicious of MP, as mentioned above.

And, if I'm reading it correctly, he's basically saying 'if I were Mafia I'd know you were citizen, and that's the only scenario where I'd know'. That assumes you're a citizen because he's ignoring the possibility of you being Mafia, meaning that if he was Mafia, he'd be your partner instead of knowing you were a citizen.

I'm not 100% convinced that him working under the assumption you're Town in that post is a 'slip' because he could have just done that as Town of course, and the fact the rest of his posts seem Townie to me makes me want to say gut-wise it's not a genuine slip, but I think it's worth considering at least unless I'm completely misunderstanding it

We'll come back to this one.

In response to JJJ's take on DH:

"I already spoke about this post. Not a fan."

I understand your perspective on it, although it wasn't my initial interpretation of it, I just saw it as a joke and that's basically it, I don't necessarily think there's some agenda behind it, though I do agree it's compatible with having an agenda behind it as well.

"This has now become a trend. This is a negative statement about MP which feeds the climate initially generated by Infected_alien8 against him -- but it's masked under the veil of humor. To imply that MP has been promising a rainbow list and failing to deliver is an accusation, and it carries certain weight. That weight is discarded within the humor presented here by the man who made the comment in the first place. Yuck."

I think this is the most compelling point in my opinion, it is a bit of an attack covered in a joke so that he can point it out but not be the one to push it and hopes others will instead so that they take the blame for the lynch/make an enemy with M Plus 7. Could also just be purely a joke and he didn't actually care about the rainbow reads list at all but I get your interpretation, and slightly lean towards agreeing.

"MP then posts the rainbow, and DH gives him shit based upon the inherent invalidity of rainbow lists (see here). MP can't win."

Assuming he was in fact serious about the rainbow reads list yeah this seems like he's targetting M Plus 7 a bit here, in an unfair way, possibly Mafia-agenda

Okay I'm caught up.

I think my top town-reads would be Jay and Tsiah. My main suspicion M Plus 7. Town lean on Mac too but I can't help but feel their post explaining their 'fake' reads was an excuse to stop Jay pushing on them, but it does make sense so I'm sort of like 'well fair enough'. I feel like I need to mull over that post

My opinion is that this is neutral on Mac. Just noticed that Tsaiah morphed into a "top town read" in the space of one post, when the previous one said she "could be faking it".

Russ - Light Town because their posts accusing me felt genuine actually

I am inclined to disagree on this one. I found Russ's take on your proposed Mac slip to be convoluted, in that the variables he introduced (primarily the relationship/experience you've had or not had with MacDougall) to be of shaky relevance, and I struggled to follow the thread of thought he was putting to paper.

Actually I can see that, I too was kind of confused as to where he was going with that, it felt like he was going to say that if I knew him it'd be worse for me because he said it would be a good 'revenge lynch', but then suddenly it was the opposite and I didn't quite feel like I was riding his thought process with him very well, which could be a sign he was kind of making it up as he went along I guess?

I guess maybe net positive on me? If it is positive, it leaves a LOT of wiggle room to change stances, though.

(interior quotes removed for length)

There was one point I found compelling in your ISO of Dharma yes, but it's not compelling enough to make me want him lynched over M Plus 7. What was the thing about kyle? The russ thing yes, I can see your perspective, I asked Russ to explain where he was going with that and I'll go from there with that read.

I don't think I have 'one guy in my crosshairs' at all, he's my top suspect but he's not my only suspect and I think I've made that clear at least.

That he had more than one guy (MP7) in his crosshairs was NOT apparent at this point, by the way, as Jay pointed out.

at some point i want somebody, in some game, to realize that trying to tease out people's thought processes on another player isn't automatically a defense

which is probably a thing you should know based on the way you "defended" Turnip Head without it really being a defense

Well, it felt to me like it was you defending M Plus 7 instead of trying to tease out my thoughts, but looking back on it through your ISO I can see a world where you're doing it to tease out my thoughts as well and you actually haven't defended him as much as I had in my mind. Still though, do you not find your lack of mindmelds with him at all concerning? Didn't you mindmeld with him right from the start last game?

Mac doesn't give a fuck whether sprityo is town. He sees an easy D1 lynch.

Hm, I think I see what you mean here? Like, the post is about 'look at what sprit is doing that's bad regardless of alignment', not 'is sprit Mafia' in this bit

Not sure if I get much out of it alignment-wise though, why do you think that comes from Mafia over Town specifically?

(These last 2 were consecutive posts from him, about the same thing.)

Alright fine if I made just a giant ass of myself so be it. I'll just walk away. Clearly you all could do without me anyway probably.

Not at all. Fwiw I think your point about that post lacking a sense of him sorting his alignment makes sense and your case does make me reconsider him, because even though it's just one post, it could be him falling short on keeping his act up all the time of genuinely trying to sort him. But Townies aren't exempt from making those posts either of course, so it's not something that makes me want to lynch him, just reconsider him, but even if it's wrong and you're Town you at least made sense so didn't make an ass of yourself in my eyes.

This one.....wow. SIX back and forths on Mac! In one post!

2.

Following JJJ's lead.

This one I have to talk about a little. Again, Jay already pointed it out (along with mentioning that Alien's reads have been noncommital, as I showed above):

A trend I have noted in your posts is that you've been pretty agreeable, at least in your dealings with me, in that you have acknowledged at least some portion of a point being made without really committing to that thought. Indeed, the only commitment I observe in your play to this point is to voice suspicion of M Plus 7. I can understand having suspicions of MP, but for him to be the sole suspect of note at this stage of 700 some posts is hard to believe.

Alien has talked to Jay a LOT. I won't quote them all, because there are actually too many and this post will be monster already. But Alien has asked JJJ 23 clarifying or follow-up questions about something he said. To reiterate: 23 follow-up questions. That is NOT including general questions to the thread, commentary or responses to things Jay has said, it's literally just the questions. It looks like buddying/trying to make Jay notice how engaged he is, to me.

Not to mention the times JJJ LITERALLY WAS INSIDE ALIEN'S HEAD:

Russ - Light Town because their posts accusing me felt genuine actually

I am inclined to disagree on this one. I found Russ's take on your proposed Mac slip to be convoluted, in that the variables he introduced (primarily the relationship/experience you've had or not had with MacDougall) to be of shaky relevance, and I struggled to follow the thread of thought he was putting to paper.

Actually I can see that, I too was kind of confused as to where he was going with that, it felt like he was going to say that if I knew him it'd be worse for me because he said it would be a good 'revenge lynch', but then suddenly it was the opposite and I didn't quite feel like I was riding his thought process with him very well, which could be a sign he was kind of making it up as he went along I guess?

Infected_alien8_ I guess I just don't really understand what your initial concern was with my history questions in the first place. like i see where you say "yes, I am also curious about that am waiting for a response" and where you said "cool, nice answer". I don't really understand what were you looking for. what kind of answer wouldn't have satisfied you?

I thought you were scumhunting/town hunting, or trying to look like you were at least, with that question, and I couldn't understand where you were going with it to sort anyone's alignment. So you saying that it was mainly just to make us feel welcome and get into the game made sense and so I'm fine with your answer.

An answer that wouldn't have satisfied me would have been one where you tried to insist it was helping you form a read on us that I didn't find genuine.

did you have that impression of my getting-to-know-you posts before Jay's commentary?

Yes, but I forgot about until Jay brought it up again if I remember correctly

If I had to state what I dislike most about MacDougall, it'd still be that we know for certain that he attempted to emulate his civilian meta when he joined the thread.

That's the thing currently echoing back in my mind as well

3. Asking lots of questions.

Colin just point this out, not about Alien, but I think it applies.

Does Kyle usually ask a lot of questions? Like, maybe it’s the alcohol but this pinged me:

players who know infected alien, how would you characterize their civ gameplay? mafia gameplay?

do they often go out of their way to weigh in on things, both positively and negatively? is there a correlation to alignment or is it a consistent behavior across the board

When I’m scum I frequently will pose questions not necessarily related to anything in the thread that are juuuuust relevant enough to make it look like I’m attempting to solve. That’s what this post felt like.

Like I said, Alien has asked JJJ 23 follow-up questions. Add in the questions for other people and the general thread, and I'd bet dimes to donuts we're up over 50 in 135 posts. If Colin's point is accurate, Alien exemplifies it.

The Ugly.

You guys know I've been on Alien for this Mac "scumslip" thing. I won't rehash that. Instead, I'll point out all the times Alien said it was a slip, and then the times later on where he said that he never said it was a slip.

I wanted to town-read Mac based on tone but I think they might have possibly slipped?
......(edited for length).......
Despite the rest of mac's post making me feel he's Town, this could be a slip here - he's assuming Jay is Town and not Mafia, because if he's Town, imagining being Mafia still leads to the possibility of him them being Mafia partners, but he ignores that scenario.

The initial waffly, low accountability accusation, which I've already discussed at length.

And, if I'm reading it correctly, he's basically saying 'if I were Mafia I'd know you were citizen, and that's the only scenario where I'd know'. That assumes you're a citizen because he's ignoring the possibility of you being Mafia, meaning that if he was Mafia, he'd be your partner instead of knowing you were a citizen.

I'm not 100% convinced that him working under the assumption you're Town in that post is a 'slip' because he could have just done that as Town of course, and the fact the rest of his posts seem Townie to me makes me want to say gut-wise it's not a genuine slip, but I think it's worth considering at least unless I'm completely misunderstanding it

Sure, Alien is not "100% convinced". But he thinks it's slippery enough to raise (twice).

@MacDougall Your 'slip' was because you essentially said "the only way for me to know you're Town is if I'm Mafia', because an underlying assumption of that statement is that they're Town, because if you were Mafia you'd know it, as opposed to knowing they were also Mafia, which is a possibility to you if you're Town. We may just have different ways of thinking but if I'm Town and someone says 'you know I'm Town', my natural reaction isn't 'well if I was Mafia I'd know it, but I'm not Mafia so I don't', because that assumes you are in fact Town. I might think 'well, *if you are in fact Town* then the only way for me to know that is if I'm Mafia', and it was the 'if you are Town' bit that you left out, which could be because you're not thinking about it that way, you're assuming they're Town, because you know they are, because you're Mafia. It's very nitpicky but it's possible it reflects your thought process perfectly and you didn't have any doubt about them being Town.

I don't necessarily think it is actually a slip from scum, my gut says it wasn't at least; maybe just you didn't feel the need to add that part of 'if you're town', even though you did think it, or maybe it was an accidental assumption during that specific part of the thread, like you came at it from an angle of 'you're making this accusation that I'm Mafia and I'm showing you why I've identified this by speaking about it from your point of view', but it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out. Hope that makes sense?

Now it's "Your (Mac's) slip" in the first paragraph, sounding like an assertion that this factually happened and was a slip. Then in paragraph 2, "I don't necessarily think it is actually a slip from scum" (so we're back to "maybe a slip"), then "my gut says it wasn't at least" (not a slip), and then finally "it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out" (which to me reads as "maybe a slip, and I'm leaning that it is".

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

In both of these references, his slip is just straight up a slip, no waffling.



Then, I started giving Alien heat, and lo and behold!

I didn't say I thought he slipped, I said I thought he possibly slipped, and that I didn't think it was genuinely a slip myself because he seemed Town other than that and my gut says it wasn't, but I wanted to point it out anyway to see if anyone else made anything of it. I didn't want to act like I thought he was genuinely slipping because I didn't, and I didn't see the point of pressuring him to think I did other than to make us have a pointless debate about it.

The colored parts here cannot coexist. Saying you think someone slipped and saying you think someone possibly slipped are actually equivalent. The ONLY difference here is that the second one makes you less associated with the sentiment. This is a CYA.

I think Alien may have been grasping at straws with that slip talk and has now found themselves in the (unenviable) position of defending and debating a suspicion they knew was bunk. On notice.

I'm not defending it, I don't believe in it myself, I said so right from the moment I pointed it out, or right after. I pointed it out to get other opinions on it.

Again, the colored statements above cannot coexist. More importantly, both of these are false, as shown above. You did waffle a CRAPTON making the accusation, but you definitely made it. If you believe it wasn't a slip, then why did you come into the thread saying it might be MULTIPLE TIMES? No civ who genuinely doesn't believe something treis to draw attention to it like that.

It's worth pointing out here that a slip is, by definition, the most obvious of any mafia tell, and we're (mostly) highly experienced at this game and at finding slips. If it were truly a slip, someone would've pointed it out, which is why I keep saying if you don't believe it's a slip, it makes no sense to mention it. Even if you don't, if a slip exists it will be brought up. You were the only person to push this, and you did it in a way designed to give you as littel exposure as possible to blowback no matter the outcome.

[Tangrowth]

The only fear losing town Turnip Head on D1 is that when he is town he is really good at finding other players as town.

Linki: HOLY SHIT WALL

[Kylemii]

Does Kyle usually ask a lot of questions? Like, maybe it’s the alcohol but this pinged me:

players who know infected alien, how would you characterize their civ gameplay? mafia gameplay?

do they often go out of their way to weigh in on things, both positively and negatively? is there a correlation to alignment or is it a consistent behavior across the board

When I’m scum I frequently will pose questions not necessarily related to anything in the thread that are juuuuust relevant enough to make it look like I’m attempting to solve. That’s what this post felt like.

asking questions about shit is like literally 90% of what i do are you kidding

no one responded to my asking about aliens' meta before so i reiterated it

[Tangrowth]

OMG RUSS CITING MR. GOLDFUSS

YESSSSSSS

[MacDougall]

I still have to reconcile the possibility of scum Mac with what you are doing right now and slfgknqasdlignadlfg but yeah I like where your head is at right now Mac. I think.

MP. I woke up after having a very long sleep in a very clear headed state with a big smile on my face.

I flipped open my laptop and had a look at the thread.

I saw Sprityo had, again, just painted over my posts with "no u" everywhere.

Rather than calling him names I decided to just make a very reasoned post. I felt so confident that I was right, that I drafted it up like closing arguments in a court room addressing the people.

You are so used to seeing me be cynical and blunt that you got completely pinged by the fact that I didn't yell at him. That is literally all that happened. You then got so fixated on being right about it that you proceeded to make excited posts declaring that you cannot be wrong.

Now that I am back, in no small part because you put back here in my normal place of meta, you are back to reading me as you normally do.

This is exactly what I was referring to in the actual post you called me "town as fuck" in. To a freakin' tee.

You accused me of having an agenda. Yes, I had an agenda. My agenda was trying to drum up a lynch wagon on a guy I think is scum.

[DharmaHelper]

Can we lynch Turnip Head? I know it's an about face but I think he'll flip red and if he does I'm willing to back off sprityo and Dharmahelper too.

Wait, explain this to me. Why would TH clear other players? And why would he flip red?

I think he's pretty close to 50/50 because it's fucking TH but what do I know. I was giving him mild points for tone, but... yeah, he's the hardest player for me to sort right now other than Marmot.

I quickly ISO checked TH, Colin, DH and Marmot for post counts and found the former three with far higher post counts than I thought. That they are not central to discussion pings me.

I am want to give Marmot a pass for it. I know Colin will continue to post whether he's scum or not and have seen him tie himself in knots to the point where he couldn't get out of it before, very recently, as scum.

TH straight up called Dharmahelper town. If TH flips bad I am calling Dharmahelper town. I do not think a scum TH calls a teammate DH town the way he did.

He called sprityo his spirit animal. I do not think a scum TH engages with a scum teammate sprityo in this way.

Kylemii was visibly taken aback by TH giving DH a town clear. It is both a good look for Kyle and I cannot see them as scum teammates because of it.

I know these are all simple things but I can't sense any of these three interactions being scum/scum.

Going on the post I made before that I directed at Jay I would like one of DH or TH lynched today because neither of them are living up to what I feel their standards of contribution are which in THIS particular game where we as town have the benefit of a significantly active thread, makes me want to get rid of them early as they are not going to allow themselves to, "tie themselves in knots" the way a Colin will.

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

Oh.

Uhm, you could lynch me I guess, or you could try to lynch a baddie. I dunno. Up to you man.

Linki - V. Cool how every time I do have 10 minutes to spare for this game I get linki'd into actual hell.

[Tsaiah]

That M Plus 7 moment didn't feel genuine to me. There was no fire there.

...i actually felt the fire burning me through my screen

[Tangrowth]

Also Russ, I'll get to the rest, but I want to say right now, I actually thought it looked BAD on Alien after a while that he still suspects me because we had extensive conversations over and over and it felt like he just kept coming back to "nope, you're bad". It didn't feel like he was actually thoughtfully considering everything I was saying at times towards the end there.

That's just the impression I got though, and I'm not the best judge of when people suspect me.

Now I'll read the rest, promise.

[Tangrowth]

That M Plus 7 moment didn't feel genuine to me. There was no fire there.

...i actually felt the fire burning me through my screen

Lol just wait until you catch up to earlier today.

*embarrassed*

[Kylemii]

cool fact, if you lynch me tomorrow it will be the third time in a row I've been lynched or night killed in a game on my birthday, not counting years in which i wasn't active in mafia.

[Tangrowth]

Kyle I'll still get to the Alien meta stuff, sorry. It's a question that requires a very thoughtful answer.

[Tangrowth]

cool fact, if you lynch me tomorrow it will be the third time in a row I've been lynched or night killed in a game on my birthday, not counting years in which i wasn't active in mafia.

THE BIRTHDAY CURSE

[MacDougall]

I see what you’re saying about getting tied up generally, but if I may defend my play, the only reason I got so caught in Retro was because you motherfuckers towncleared half the game by D2.

Yes because there was a lot of participation in that game (and a lot of town confirming shenanigans going on btsc) but that is exactly what could play out here if we as a town just decide to use that strategy. Freeze out the bad guys by knocking off the non compliers one by one until the scum that are left are scum with large post counts ergo a lot of opportunities for us to see their scum stripes.

[ColinIsCool]

cool fact, if you lynch me tomorrow it will be the third time in a row I've been lynched or night killed in a game on my birthday, not counting years in which i wasn't active in mafia.

Is that your birthday wish?

[MacDougall]

cool fact, if you lynch me tomorrow it will be the third time in a row I've been lynched or night killed in a game on my birthday, not counting years in which i wasn't active in mafia.

Kyle were you mislynched the other times?

[MacDougall]

Sorry, other time. Were you town?

[DharmaHelper]

Fun fact there's a Game of Champions that I technically lost but got an Honorary win from because everyone illegally outted themselves including MP

Epi was the host it was pretty fun.

[Tangrowth]

Russ, you fucking G.

[Russtifinko]

Now, I need the rest of the thread's help. Sanity check: am I insane for thinking there's no good reason to point out a scumslip, waffle on it, and then say you never thought it was a scumslip in the first place? Is Alien just asking lots of questions because he's super friendly, has just it it off with JJJ organically, and waffling on reads because he's new and doesn't know anyone? Does he truly suspect MP is mafia?

I think the answers to all these are a resounding NO. It makes sense to me that he's been caught trying to push a lynch with no accountability, that he's being really nice to JJJ (and polite to the thread in general) in order to curry favor, that he's waffling so as not to be pinned to a bad suspicion, and that he threw out a (first post!) garbage case on MP because that was the one person he knows and he knew roughly what reaction he'd get. However, if my case is weak and/or I'm tunneling, I want to hear about it and have it out now.

Linki: Thanks, MP. And yeah, I didn't include it in my case except to quote JJJ, but he's right - having you as his sole suspicion is nuts imo.

LOL DH good memories. And MP, Goldfuss FTW!!!

[MacDougall]

That Russ wall on Alien is hot as fuck.

[Kylemii]

cool fact, if you lynch me tomorrow it will be the third time in a row I've been lynched or night killed in a game on my birthday, not counting years in which i wasn't active in mafia.

Kyle were you mislynched the other times?

i was surprise mislynch last year while i was out doing birthday things, i think i was town. or maybe it was a nightkills, I don't remember. I don't even remember what game it was lol

[Tangrowth]

[mention]Russtifinko[/mention]

I actually think Alien tends to be rather hedgey in general, but he did seem hedgier AND wordier with his reads in WC1 than in G9, and I'm starting to see some of that in what you've quoted.

I think I'll need to some deep WC1 and G9 digging later and crosscheck it against what you have here.

I like what you have though. I can easily see an agenda. Suspect me. Buddy Jay. TMI tsaiah. Hedge everything.

[Tangrowth]

That Russ wall on Alien is hot as fuck.

Isn't it though? RUSS GOAT

I really fucking missed this guy.

[Russtifinko]

Oh my god I'm so tired after that case. I'm signing off for the night. Vote Alien (or tell me why I'm a moron).