Inception [END]

[Hyena]

i guess michelle is giving me hints of her town meta

which means hyena might be a good lead after all?

hyena + TL?

i wish people would push harder on people im actually willing to lynch

What are you talking about? I've been pushing on Michelle ever since I returned to the thread. The only thing I haven't done is placed a vote on her yet.

[iaafr]

i guess michelle is giving me hints of her town meta

which means hyena might be a good lead after all?

hyena + TL?

i wish people would push harder on people im actually willing to lynch

What are you talking about? I've been pushing on Michelle ever since I returned to the thread. The only thing I haven't done is placed a vote on her yet.

no i meant other people in the overall votecount

the 3 biggest wagons of eva nutella 112 are all people i dont actually want to d1

[nutella]

I'd be down for lynching LLD or TL. Not Michelle.

[Jackofhearts2005]

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME why the fuck is your vote still on me. I don't believe you have any reads of your own since you sheeped that for no reason and don't seem to have taken any stances since. Do you actually suspect me or do you just have zero original thpughts

I think you’re town but a bet is a bet

Oof.

So you’re scum or not playing to your wincon.

Cool cool.

[Michelle]

[VOTE: Hyena] aubergine for being wolfy

This vote stays until Eod because is no way town jumps like this to conclusions like Hyena did and because i am going to sleep at 10 pm

[Hyena]

i guess michelle is giving me hints of her town meta

which means hyena might be a good lead after all?

hyena + TL?

i wish people would push harder on people im actually willing to lynch

What are you talking about? I've been pushing on Michelle ever since I returned to the thread. The only thing I haven't done is placed a vote on her yet.

no i meant other people in the overall votecount

the 3 biggest wagons of eva nutella 112 are all people i dont actually want to d1

Oh, got'cha. I haven't really read 112 yet, but I don't think I want to see them lynched either. Hard no's on Eva and nutella though, definitely.

[nutella]

Jack I really feel like you've been hard buddying me and idk what to think of that.

[Hyena]

I'd be down for lynching LLD or TL. Not Michelle.

Why not Michelle?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Jack I really feel like you've been hard buddying me and idk what to think of that.

Well, you should stop saying things I’m going to say.

[nutella]

Reminds me of Hogwarts kinda actually. Bad juju.

[Michelle]

i guess michelle is giving me hints of her town meta

which means hyena might be a good lead after all?

hyena + TL?

i wish people would push harder on people im actually willing to lynch

What are you talking about? I've been pushing on Michelle ever since I returned to the thread. The only thing I haven't done is placed a vote on her yet.

ofc you don't have the courage to vote me because you know i am flipping villager and you just push my mislynch and your own narrative.

[nutella]

I'd be down for lynching LLD or TL. Not Michelle.

Why not Michelle?

Search my iso for her name, I've said a few times why I think she's town, don't feel like restating again

[iaafr]

michelle might be a flipping villager.

[iaafr]

I'd be down for lynching LLD or TL. Not Michelle.

Why not Michelle?

Search my iso for her name, I've said a few times why I think she's town, don't feel like restating again

i think you gotta be wrong on at least one of hyena and michelle man idk

its not like he cant be whimsical as scum

[Hyena]

i guess michelle is giving me hints of her town meta

which means hyena might be a good lead after all?

hyena + TL?

i wish people would push harder on people im actually willing to lynch

What are you talking about? I've been pushing on Michelle ever since I returned to the thread. The only thing I haven't done is placed a vote on her yet.

ofc you don't have the courage to vote me because you know i am flipping villager and you just push my mislynch and your own narrative.

lol
[VOTE: Michelle] aubergine

[Michelle]

I'd be down for lynching LLD or TL. Not Michelle.

Why not Michelle?

see? what did i just say?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Reminds me of Hogwarts kinda actually. Bad juju.

When is the last time I misread you?

It’s been like +6 months.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Also, DH was the serial killer. You should have listened to me.

[Hyena]

I'd be down for lynching LLD or TL. Not Michelle.

Why not Michelle?

Search my iso for her name, I've said a few times why I think she's town, don't feel like restating again

Okay, I'll give it a look.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Idk if I’ve even stated my townread of Nutella up until this point. She’s just said the same thing I’m thinking at least four times this game and twice in the last half hour and that kind of mind meld with me doesn’t come with scum Nutella. She’d try to open something up.

[112]

Idk if I’ve even stated my townread of Nutella up until this point. She’s just said the same thing I’m thinking at least four times this game and twice in the last half hour and that kind of mind meld with me doesn’t come with scum Nutella. She’d try to open something up.

ya i like nute

she's not as exactly as in wc1 but i wouldn't expect her to be. just reading her independently this game she looks pretty good, although i think she's off the mark of an awful lot.

[vanity.]

let's uh

do this

[VOTE: trustworthy liberal] aubergine

[iaafr]

[VOTE: trustworthy liberal] aubergine

[112]

let's uh

do this

[VOTE: trustworthy liberal] aubergine

i'mma iso him, maybe galaxy brain here

[nutella]

Idk if I’ve even stated my townread of Nutella up until this point. She’s just said the same thing I’m thinking at least four times this game and twice in the last half hour and that kind of mind meld with me doesn’t come with scum Nutella. She’d try to open something up.

ya i like nute

she's not as exactly as in wc1 but i wouldn't expect her to be. just reading her independently this game she looks pretty good, although i think she's off the mark of an awful lot.

where exactly do you think I've been off the mark? Sorry I don't remember your reads atm. Also that's basically how I feel about iaafr, I strongly townread him but have disagreed on a lot of viewpoints

[Benson]

Elephant seeds. Did not find as any as I thought there would be but oh well.

Spoiler: show

posts 1 and 2
His interactions with Radishes are the first instance where I see him trying to spin MR's argument into something foolish

Spoiler: show

Master Radishes, despite Mr Macdougall's numerous previous contributions, he is conspicuously absent from your list. Should that concern me? Furthermore, this absence does not concern Mr Macdougall himself. I feel that might be unusual for him, but I do not know him very well. Any light you could shed on these issues would be welcome.

Is it conspicuous? I think there are a lot of players absent from my list. Someone said this earlier, but with so many players in the game and it being only Day 0, it's impossible to keep track of everyone.

I haven't noticed Mac for better or for worse so far. He always posts a lot, from what I've seen. Doesn't mean he's contributing to gamesolving.


Question for you, Pachyderm: do you always have such a passive tone to your posts?

I am not convinced that the premise of your question is correct. Maybe you are confusing politeness and passivity?

Politeness is a form of passivity.

I wouldn't say your engagement level is passive, but the tone of your posts comes across as such. "Should that concern me?"; "Any light you could shed on these issues would be welcome"; etc = passive phrasing.

I just want to know if this is what I can expect from you so I can put it aside when forming a read.

Your manner of thought is alien to me, Master Radishes. Despite being concerned with "reads", you do not appear to actually take notice of what I wrote. You open your post by contradicting my implied assertion that passiveness and politeness are not identical, and then act as if that contradictory statement would remove my objection to your question, which it did not. In addition, I am unable to imagine how an expectation of "passivity" (or the absence of this expectation) would impact your ability to "form a read"; if you could educate me in this respect, I'd be much obliged.

Master Radishes, despite Mr Macdougall's numerous previous contributions, he is conspicuously absent from your list. Should that concern me? Furthermore, this absence does not concern Mr Macdougall himself. I feel that might be unusual for him, but I do not know him very well. Any light you could shed on these issues would be welcome.

Is it conspicuous? I think there are a lot of players absent from my list. Someone said this earlier, but with so many players in the game and it being only Day 0, it's impossible to keep track of everyone.

I haven't noticed Mac for better or for worse so far. He always posts a lot, from what I've seen. Doesn't mean he's contributing to gamesolving.


Question for you, Pachyderm: do you always have such a passive tone to your posts?

I am not convinced that the premise of your question is correct. Maybe you are confusing politeness and passivity?

Politeness is a form of passivity.

I wouldn't say your engagement level is passive, but the tone of your posts comes across as such. "Should that concern me?"; "Any light you could shed on these issues would be welcome"; etc = passive phrasing.

I just want to know if this is what I can expect from you so I can put it aside when forming a read.

Your manner of thought is alien to me, Master Radishes. Despite being concerned with "reads", you do not appear to actually take notice of what I wrote. You open your post by contradicting my implied assertion that passiveness and politeness are not identical, and then act as if that contradictory statement would remove my objection to your question, which it did not. In addition, I am unable to imagine how an expectation of "passivity" (or the absence of this expectation) would impact your ability to "form a read"; if you could educate me in this respect, I'd be much obliged.

On phone now, so not going to bother breaking up your post into relevant sections, but:
(a) What did you write that I didn't take notice of?
(b) We're now arguing over the semantics of 'passive' which seems NAI.
(c) Players have different posting styles, but I often associate passivity (as I define it) with scuminess. This is not a hard rule, however, and some people just have a tone to their posts I struggle to look past. There's a player on my home forum I scum read every single game and am usually wrong about, and it's because he posts in a manner I find similar to yours.

You have asked me a question that was unclear to me. After I drew your attention to that, you have not clarified (still!), but instead asserted that it wasn't unclear. Predictably, that led us nowhere. What you seem to be saying is that you would like to read "passivity" as scummy, but that it isn't really working out for you, which begs the question why you keep doing it. I still have no idea how the expectation of passivity can shape your read. Basically, you've been blocking my attempts to find out how you do solving in this game, which foils my attempt at townreading you. Why would you behave like this as town? (This is a genuine question!)

For now, I suggest that we revisit my original question: do you find it in character for MacDougall to ignore his absence on your reads list, or does it strike you as unusual? I understand you are somewhat familiar with him, is that correct?

post 3: His argument with me after I bring up my distaste for his argument with Radish. Here he is misrepresenting my claim, and in the last part he tries to insinuate that my line of questioning is a deliberate counter-pressure to defend MR. Again, this converation relieves the pressure from me sussing him and puts me on the defense.

Spoiler: show

What I was saying. In post #716, Im suspicious over elephant's rebuttal to MR. The tone just feels Wolfy - I know I haven't played with this guy so I'm not too concerned over that.
But I also don't like how he's honing in on very very minor discrepancies in MR's game (like stuff common to all villagers), and using that as a means to discredit his argument and push a scum read. Idk, seems like the kind of tactics I use as a wolf.

post 716 http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 03#p558403

I am not pushing a scum read here, I am still investigating, and I have especially said that I am trying for a town read and that I am not getting it. That you are trying to interpret this as a scumread is something I very much don't like. Obviously I am aware that everyone can be part of a misunderstanding. I believe this shows clearly in my post. But I am not willing to leave it uninvestigated.

I should have been more clear: I meant to imply that I thought you were laying the groundwork for an eventual scum read on MR; not that you were scumreading him at that moment per se.

I am very much laying the groundwork for an eventual scum read. An investigation that can not support either a town read or a scum read is fluff. An investigation that only works towards one of these ends is biased. I have asked Master Radishes to answer my original question, and to explain the thinking behind his own question. What do you recommend I should have done instead?

You have also noticed that I have been explicitly bringing up that a continued failure to answer has consequences for my perception of Master Radish's alignment. This is pressure. Your intervention here creates counterpressure on me, and therefore defends Master Radishes to a certain degree. Is this defense an intended effect, and if so, why did you do it?

Post 4: In this case he responds to me saying pressure votes are acceptable by creating a misrepresented argument of what I said; and it was so obviously not what I meant. He's seeing past what I'm saying and looking for ways to make my suggestion look bad. Once again.

Spoiler: show

Epignosis then?

Fine with me. I'm not bad, but there's no way I'm going to keep up with this.

I am awake and picking up where I left off last night. [VOTE: Epignosis] aubergine for trying reverse pysychology, and a revenge vote on Hyena. Looking at the poll, I anticipate my vote may change during the next 600 posts of catching up.

LIke, why say the last part? Wolves so often feel the need to tack on additional information about hwo they are going to vote.

I mention not being caught up because I want to be transparent about the state of my mind, and I see the need for transparency since the original votes on Epignosis have gone elsewhere, and I have not. I had hoped to avoid ill-considered cases on me. Judge for yourself how successful that was.

actually, let's just cut off the infected part while it's early.

[VOTE: Elephant] aubergine

You have no case and no investigation, merely pressure. Why do you do it?

Unfortunately I can't find any more votes in that "expand view" feature, although I know iaafr was just sheeping 112, and Nanook seems to have a blank vote. I'll go back to catching up until someone actually quotes or mentions me, ok?

Yeah, all fair.

This wasn't directed at me but I think votes for merely pressure are acceptable strategies.

I do not understand how mere pressure is a strategy if it has no goal. If there is no goal, how can you have a strategy?
A blank vote says, "I scumread this person, but I do not want to investigate them, engage them, or convince anyone else, and while I feel this scum read is important, I will not share my thought process". It is like playing the game and not playing it, simultaneously.

Post 5: Conversations with Juliets. This is where I think he's definitely planting the seeds. He's going about it in the nicest way possibly, but he's quietly tearing apart Juliet's ISO on TSP and her follow up to said ISO. I suppose in retrospect this could be some tactical scumhunting method from Elephant.

Spoiler: show

Hi Juliets!
May I inquire whether you have done anything scummish lately?
Thanks in advance
the Elephant

Hi Elephant!

I'm reading through your posts right now, and mind-melded with you on one of them.

I don't feel like I've done anything scummy but both Dom and Epi feel like my ISO on Tony was OOC in that I am not usually that accusatory. I have to believe them because I've played with both for a long, long time. You'll see my responses to them in my ISO.

TSP who I have played one game with and I was bad says I remind him of that game but he admits thats a weak meta read.

I have a question for you too - why does 112 find you scummy?

I believe the questions you put to Tony in your ISO of him were worth asking. When I read a player, I try to determine their intentions: why did they write that? Would they have written that as town? as scum? The motivations for the points you observed were unclear, so it was good to ask about them. Tony answered you 25 minutes later, here. My impression is that he gives fairly townish motivations for the posts that pinged you. I did not see a reaction to Tony's reply in your ISO. Why did you not comment on his answer?

I was embarrassed that I had viewed several of his posts as serious when they were really jokes so I didn't feel like there was a lot for me to say to him. I should have responded though, it's rude not to acknowledge that he took the time to answer. I'll go back and take another look at his reply when I'm finished with my group.

I can certainly empathize with your feeling of embarrassment: you felt you were being more accusatory than you were comfortable with, and had been deflated. With a proper "accusatory" mindset, you would have realized that your questions were justified, and kept questioning some of the answers without embarrassment.
I see that you did not unvote Tony, and are still voting him. Why did you still scumread him after this answer?
You had been accused of being unusally accusatory; did that play a role in your decision not to double down?

I will re-visit that Tony vote today when I re-visit his reply to me. By double down do you mean did the accusatory accusations cause me to not say "I see your answers but still think you are scum"?

Also, have you read Eva yet? I just read her and my head is spinning. I'd appreciate your opinion if you have one at this point.

I've got to take a break and get ready for an appointment I have.

Please don't understand this as me giving you advice, I'm certain you don't need any help playing mafia. My thought is that some of Tony's answers can be questioned. For example, you accused him of hiding four reads in a "summary". Tony answered, "It’s literally just a joke summary for Michelle". It still has four reads in it that are getting passed of as a joke, so you could go and look at the page in question: would a bona fide "joke summary" characterize these players for their alignment, in the same way that "Elephant: elephant" characterizes my contributions? If you can see that, his answer is valid; if you can't see it, it might not be, and deserves further questioning.
I do hope for an explanation why Tony's answers satisfy you, but you still read him as mafia. I'm happy to hear you'll be re-visiting Tony and provide that.

I am watching Evenstar from the gallery, so to speak. I consider myself unable to read her off her antics, and therefore I am content to sit back and enjoy the fireworks exploding around her. As a benefit, this attitude nicely avoids the "my head is spinning" sensation that you just experienced.

There's less substance to the whole thing than I had hoped but whatever. It's a gut suspicion anyways.

[nutella]

[VOTE: trustworthy liberal] aubergine. Sure why not.

[Benson]

Probably never staying with Elephant today

[112]

ok yeah, let's do that

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

[vanity.]

choo choo motherfuckers

[Hyena]

[mention]nutella[/mention] I'm not convinced by what you said about Michelle, and there was also this post that I didn't like from her that I saw:

Spoiler: show

Just skimmed again through million of posts and forgot half of the content.
I will just relax as I rly have a bad day today and I wasted my energy into carrying home the Cats/Dogs game with Novas and Speedchuck

Here some crappy GTH reads to satisfy your hunger:

Nutella - good
Michelle - good
Sprityo - good
the guy with the rabbit avatar - good

don't mention me -_-

give me details of Nutella good and what alignament means good for you please. Thanks

why nutella? why not interested in why I read you good?
good means civillian

I don't need to be pocketed thanks for asking.

Don't avoid the question Rej, talk to me about Nutella.

I don't see how what she's doing here differs from what I'm doing right now.

[Trustworthy Liberal]

this diagram says I'm misreading this game badly somehow, 'cause either nutella is scum or my reads are shit

leaning towards my reads are shit

pls halp no speak

Arrows indicate read given by person in the center
Background color of the bubble is my read

dark green: town
green: townlean
light blue: towny
grey: null
pink: scummy
orange: scumlean
red: scum

as you can see, my reads and nutella's reads disagree a lot.

Context makes me question if evenstar or Nutella by assuming this is the right one

Most arn't out there having simular reads it seems but seems even isn't confident in said reads

(Also really hard to dig through looking for a number post)

[112]

choo choo motherfuckers

[Trustworthy Liberal]

Well getting mislynched as ussaly

Monica sad

[Benson]

Can be completely honest and say that I rarely understand what tlib is saying or why he's saying it. Don't want to be an asshole but there it is.

[nutella]

@nutella I'm not convinced by what you said about Michelle, and there was also this post that I didn't like from her that I saw:

Spoiler: show

Just skimmed again through million of posts and forgot half of the content.
I will just relax as I rly have a bad day today and I wasted my energy into carrying home the Cats/Dogs game with Novas and Speedchuck

Here some crappy GTH reads to satisfy your hunger:

Nutella - good
Michelle - good
Sprityo - good
the guy with the rabbit avatar - good

don't mention me -_-

give me details of Nutella good and what alignament means good for you please. Thanks

why nutella? why not interested in why I read you good?
good means civillian

I don't need to be pocketed thanks for asking.

Don't avoid the question Rej, talk to me about Nutella.

I don't see how what she's doing here differs from what I'm doing right now.

That's one of the posts that most made me think she's town. I think being afraid she's getting pocketed is a legit town tell.

[112]

sorry- nsfw language obviously, maybe i shouldn't have posted that

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME why the fuck is your vote still on me. I don't believe you have any reads of your own since you sheeped that for no reason and don't seem to have taken any stances since. Do you actually suspect me or do you just have zero original thpughts

I think you’re town but a bet is a bet

Garbage reason to vote someone. Anti-town. Screw the bet it's dumb and LLD doesn't deserve that kind of positive feedback rn.

I mean

If you wanna make the same bet on someone I’m game

I just want sheeple to follow my wisdom when I start paying attention

[juliets]

I'm back, can someone point me to the case on Trustworthy Liberal? I see he or she is taking votes currently. I see I've been pinged, I'll get to those.

[nutella]

Can be completely honest and say that I rarely understand what tlib is saying or why he's saying it. Don't want to be an asshole but there it is.

Agreed. I'm usually fine understanding non native speakers but I don't even see why he's bringing up the posts he is rather than addressing more salient discussions

[Benson]

Michelle you wanted to talk if you are around So am i

hi.
Once, long ago, you said you catched up and dissapeard. Tell me what have from catching up back then.

I have slight reads for some player poated earlier but this I them I am more confident on my town reads then skim reads not gonna lie but pretty confident on the town ones also why i would prefore not lynching Eve today feeling leaving her alove another day will help sort her out more also why it's juat slight atm.

Still not 100% from that point forward I the 30's of pages woth alittle but seen with the grouping idea feel bad but have more time as this game goes to give it.

Haven't read you as either but you so far don't seem in your work meta having played against and with before so would prefore you to live for now

Towny
-Mac (you)
-Nanook
-Sprityo (i 100% misspelled this am sorry)

-Town Lean
-Everstar

Skumy leaning
-nutella

skumy
-hyena

Wait. Is this the exact list you posted like 30 pages ago?

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME why the fuck is your vote still on me. I don't believe you have any reads of your own since you sheeped that for no reason and don't seem to have taken any stances since. Do you actually suspect me or do you just have zero original thpughts

I think you’re town but a bet is a bet

Oof.

So you’re scum or not playing to your wincon.

Cool cool.

Counterpoint: getting people to sheep me is good for my wincon

[nutella]

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME why the fuck is your vote still on me. I don't believe you have any reads of your own since you sheeped that for no reason and don't seem to have taken any stances since. Do you actually suspect me or do you just have zero original thpughts

I think you’re town but a bet is a bet

Garbage reason to vote someone. Anti-town. Screw the bet it's dumb and LLD doesn't deserve that kind of positive feedback rn.

I mean

If you wanna make the same bet on someone I’m game

I just want sheeple to follow my wisdom when I start paying attention

No, I don't. This bet thing is anti-town. Don't do it.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME why the fuck is your vote still on me. I don't believe you have any reads of your own since you sheeped that for no reason and don't seem to have taken any stances since. Do you actually suspect me or do you just have zero original thpughts

I think you’re town but a bet is a bet

Garbage reason to vote someone. Anti-town. Screw the bet it's dumb and LLD doesn't deserve that kind of positive feedback rn.

I mean

If you wanna make the same bet on someone I’m game

I just want sheeple to follow my wisdom when I start paying attention

No, I don't. This bet thing is anti-town. Don't do it.

Are you gonna vote drago or Texas with me?

[112]

I'm back, can someone point me to the case on Trustworthy Liberal? I see he or she is taking votes currently. I see I've been pinged, I'll get to those.

his iso

[112]

Michelle you wanted to talk if you are around So am i

hi.
Once, long ago, you said you catched up and dissapeard. Tell me what have from catching up back then.

I have slight reads for some player poated earlier but this I them I am more confident on my town reads then skim reads not gonna lie but pretty confident on the town ones also why i would prefore not lynching Eve today feeling leaving her alove another day will help sort her out more also why it's juat slight atm.

Still not 100% from that point forward I the 30's of pages woth alittle but seen with the grouping idea feel bad but have more time as this game goes to give it.

Haven't read you as either but you so far don't seem in your work meta having played against and with before so would prefore you to live for now

Towny
-Mac (you)
-Nanook
-Sprityo (i 100% misspelled this am sorry)

-Town Lean
-Everstar

Skumy leaning
-nutella

skumy
-hyena

Wait. Is this the exact list you posted like 30 pages ago?

LMAO it is. i just read his iso

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Cause tbh I’d vote them over you even with the bet

[nutella]

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME why the fuck is your vote still on me. I don't believe you have any reads of your own since you sheeped that for no reason and don't seem to have taken any stances since. Do you actually suspect me or do you just have zero original thpughts

I think you’re town but a bet is a bet

Oof.

So you’re scum or not playing to your wincon.

Cool cool.

Counterpoint: getting people to sheep me is good for my wincon

So you want to sacrifice a townie who has frankly contributed a lot more content than you for the sake of having cred. If that is good for your wincon then your wincon must not be a town one.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Michelle you wanted to talk if you are around So am i

hi.
Once, long ago, you said you catched up and dissapeard. Tell me what have from catching up back then.

I have slight reads for some player poated earlier but this I them I am more confident on my town reads then skim reads not gonna lie but pretty confident on the town ones also why i would prefore not lynching Eve today feeling leaving her alove another day will help sort her out more also why it's juat slight atm.

Still not 100% from that point forward I the 30's of pages woth alittle but seen with the grouping idea feel bad but have more time as this game goes to give it.

Haven't read you as either but you so far don't seem in your work meta having played against and with before so would prefore you to live for now

Towny
-Mac (you)
-Nanook
-Sprityo (i 100% misspelled this am sorry)

-Town Lean
-Everstar

Skumy leaning
-nutella

skumy
-hyena

Wait. Is this the exact list you posted like 30 pages ago?

Loooool I want to believe.

[nutella]

Cause tbh I’d vote them over you even with the bet

Drago maybe. Texas nah.