Inception [END]

[Creature]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

[juliets]

[mention]Elephant[/mention] one thing about vanity that seems to point to him being town is he wouldn't self-pres. Do you think that was a ploy to get people to move off of him?

[juliets]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

I'm having a hard time reading TL. Is there anything other than his posts this day that is leading you to vote him?

[Creature]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

I'm having a hard time reading TL. Is there anything other than his posts this day that is leading you to vote him?

I have mostly general feels

[juliets]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

I'm having a hard time reading TL. Is there anything other than his posts this day that is leading you to vote him?

I have mostly general feels

Ok thanks Creature.

[juliets]

If there is a trick for pulling quotes from locked threads, could someone please tell me? Wall incoming ín a few.

Elephant, reading back through some of the game I saw this. The way I do quotes is to open another window and use that to search for the posts I want to quote. When I find one I quote it and then copy paste to my "reply" post. Did you try this method when you were trying to pull quotes from the locked thread?

[Elephant]

I identified strong players on day 2 by a criterium independent of their performance in this game: anyone who advanced in the MU championships is undoubtedly "strong". Benson revealed that he had advanced in a previous season, and including Nanook and LLD, who played this year's finale, the list is Benson, Lady LambdaDelta, Nanook, nutella, Spiny Creature, Vanity. I know why vanity is still alive. nutella is either scum with vanity, or left alive because she was considered pocketed (the vote on Ty4on probably helped create that impression).

Not evrry strong player wants to bother playing MU champs

Yes, but I needed an external criterium. If I can arbitrarily define what a strong player is, I can just choose my strong players to make my statement true. By going to an external criterium, I introduce some small error (as you correctly reason), but avoid the pitfall of committing a worse error.

[Elephant]

@Elephant one thing about vanity that seems to point to him being town is he wouldn't self-pres. Do you think that was a ploy to get people to move off of him?

I have a feeling that vanity knew he didn't need to self-preserve, but I don't yet know if I'm allowed to explain it. Please have patience.

[Elephant]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

This seems like a pure POE vote. Is that the case? Do you have a specific reason to vote Trustworthy Liberal and not Long Con?

[Elephant]

If there is a trick for pulling quotes from locked threads, could someone please tell me? Wall incoming ín a few.

Elephant, reading back through some of the game I saw this. The way I do quotes is to open another window and use that to search for the posts I want to quote. When I find one I quote it and then copy paste to my "reply" post. Did you try this method when you were trying to pull quotes from the locked thread?

I did not see the quote button while the thread was locked. I follow your process when the thread is open.

[Elephant]

Why are we wagoning Elephant?

I am said to have been powerwolfing and controlling the lynches to town's disfavor.

[juliets]

@Elephant one thing about vanity that seems to point to him being town is he wouldn't self-pres. Do you think that was a ploy to get people to move off of him?

I have a feeling that vanity knew he didn't need to self-preserve, but I don't yet know if I'm allowed to explain it. Please have patience.

Ok

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Seemingly only members of the site staff have the ability to use the quote function within a locked thread. Many of our games here don't feature locked phases, so this isn't something we encounter often. With that in mind, I will restrict usage of the quote function for everyone for the remainder of the game during any locked phase. That doesn't mean players cannot still directly extract content via copy-paste and/or the usage of generic quote tag HTML coding -- these just won't call back to the original post. Any questions, PM me. Thanks y'all.

[nutella]

Like, do I really need to go on? Nutella has been swinging wherever the tide goes between Elephant and Vanity, and then, when she has had a chance to flip one of them, she hasn't. TWICE.

Yep that's what I do lol. I know meta defense isn't going to satisfy you but anyone on the syndicate can tell you this is pretty typical behavior. I'm invested in getting this right, and I constantly change my mind based on new evidence and the whims of my gut.

[nutella]

Like, do I really need to go on? Nutella has been swinging wherever the tide goes between Elephant and Vanity, and then, when she has had a chance to flip one of them, she hasn't. TWICE.

Nice work on nutella wobbling! My world always had vanity as wolf as the centerpiece, and I wanted to flip vanity before nutella because of that. But your world suggests that there is a scum-sided interest in keeping the Elephant/vanity dichotomy going, and in that case vanity could be town-aligned. That does turn quite a few things on their head.

I'm not intentionally holding up a dichotomy. I've said, more than once I think, that I believe it's possible you're both town. I just don't know what to do if we're in that universe.

[nutella]

I'm having an epiphan-t here. Many things make a lot of sense with a scum elephant. I just want the ok from juliets before I vote for him.

as I understood Juliets, she did not give you an ok? Or did she?

I can go into all of the reasons that I'd rather not go into, and I very much dislike that vanity is the source behind this. Obviously it won't involve me revealing private information, I'd simply not want scum to draw the same conclusions I did.

I did not give the ok. Far from it.

Ok. I'll move if you say so. It wasn't clear at all for me from your response. You just said "well why would he do X if he were bad" which I had an answer for and you didn't really say you strongly believe he's town.

[nutella]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

We could do this. I feel like TL is that player in everyone's poe that the "stopping the juggernaut" article claims will flip wolf.

[nutella]

@Elephant one thing about vanity that seems to point to him being town is he wouldn't self-pres. Do you think that was a ploy to get people to move off of him?

I have a feeling that vanity knew he didn't need to self-preserve, but I don't yet know if I'm allowed to explain it. Please have patience.

Whaaaa

[juliets]

Like, do I really need to go on? Nutella has been swinging wherever the tide goes between Elephant and Vanity, and then, when she has had a chance to flip one of them, she hasn't. TWICE.

Nice work on nutella wobbling! My world always had vanity as wolf as the centerpiece, and I wanted to flip vanity before nutella because of that. But your world suggests that there is a scum-sided interest in keeping the Elephant/vanity dichotomy going, and in that case vanity could be town-aligned. That does turn quite a few things on their head.

I'm not intentionally holding up a dichotomy. I've said, more than once I think, that I believe it's possible you're both town. I just don't know what to do if we're in that universe.

I don't know what to do if we're in that universe either.

TLib is a possibility but I need to read back on him.

[nutella]

If there is a trick for pulling quotes from locked threads, could someone please tell me? Wall incoming ín a few.

Elephant, reading back through some of the game I saw this. The way I do quotes is to open another window and use that to search for the posts I want to quote. When I find one I quote it and then copy paste to my "reply" post. Did you try this method when you were trying to pull quotes from the locked thread?

I did not see the quote button while the thread was locked. I follow your process when the thread is open.

As a mod I always try to refrain from using functions that others can't use in such situations for the sake of fairness. My solution would be to just use the links to specific posts, which you can retrieve by clicking on the post title, rather than quotes.

[Creature]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

This seems like a pure POE vote. Is that the case? Do you have a specific reason to vote Trustworthy Liberal and not Long Con?

Trust already had a vote and I think voting Long will be a waste of time unless we're lynching him

[nutella]

Like, do I really need to go on? Nutella has been swinging wherever the tide goes between Elephant and Vanity, and then, when she has had a chance to flip one of them, she hasn't. TWICE.

Nice work on nutella wobbling! My world always had vanity as wolf as the centerpiece, and I wanted to flip vanity before nutella because of that. But your world suggests that there is a scum-sided interest in keeping the Elephant/vanity dichotomy going, and in that case vanity could be town-aligned. That does turn quite a few things on their head.

I'm not intentionally holding up a dichotomy. I've said, more than once I think, that I believe it's possible you're both town. I just don't know what to do if we're in that universe.

I don't know what to do if we're in that universe either.

TLib is a possibility but I need to read back on him.

I think that may be a reasonable choice based on creature's feelings and what I pointed out about the GH article.

[VOTE: trustworthy liberal] aubergine

[Creature]

Why are we wagoning Elephant?

I am said to have been powerwolfing and controlling the lynches to town's disfavor.

The latter is right?

[Creature]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

We could do this. I feel like TL is that player in everyone's poe that the "stopping the juggernaut" article claims will flip wolf.

There's also a strange resistance to TL lynch

[nutella]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

We could do this. I feel like TL is that player in everyone's poe that the "stopping the juggernaut" article claims will flip wolf.

There's also a strange resistance to TL lynch

From?

[nutella]

I was so attached to my elephant theory for a while lol but I think I was misguided about the thing with juliets so I am backing off. It just made so much sense in my mind but I have to give her some say here.

Come at me Hyena.

[juliets]

If there is a trick for pulling quotes from locked threads, could someone please tell me? Wall incoming ín a few.

Elephant, reading back through some of the game I saw this. The way I do quotes is to open another window and use that to search for the posts I want to quote. When I find one I quote it and then copy paste to my "reply" post. Did you try this method when you were trying to pull quotes from the locked thread?

I did not see the quote button while the thread was locked. I follow your process when the thread is open.

As a mod I always try to refrain from using functions that others can't use in such situations for the sake of fairness. My solution would be to just use the links to specific posts, which you can retrieve by clicking on the post title, rather than quotes.

Cool, that works!

[nutella]

[mention]Creature[/mention] I think I trust you. Why is that? One could say you have been pushing away from potential vanity lynches. Would that be an accurate representation?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Seemingly only members of the site staff have the ability to use the quote function within a locked thread. Many of our games here don't feature locked phases, so this isn't something we encounter often. With that in mind, I will restrict usage of the quote function for everyone for the remainder of the game during any locked phase. That doesn't mean players cannot still directly extract content via copy-paste and/or the usage of generic quote tag HTML coding -- these just won't call back to the original post. Any questions, PM me. Thanks y'all.

To be clear, that only applies when the thread is locked. Nothing changes right now.

[Elephant]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

We could do this. I feel like TL is that player in everyone's poe that the "stopping the juggernaut" article claims will flip wolf.

There's also a strange resistance to TL lynch

From?

I resist because his ISO feels townie, and I assume he would look scummy by now.

[nutella]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

We could do this. I feel like TL is that player in everyone's poe that the "stopping the juggernaut" article claims will flip wolf.

There's also a strange resistance to TL lynch

From?

I resist because his ISO feels townie, and I assume he would look scummy by now.

Not the strongest reasoning but ok.

Ugh maybe it really is best to resolve vanity already but I do not feel good about it

[nutella]

I would just sheep hyena but he's voting for me lol. I would just sheep juliets but she isn't voting currently.

[mention]Hyena[/mention] we can do vanity I guess. If he flips wolf do your worst on me. I give up.

[nutella]

[mention]Quin[/mention] [mention]Lady LambdaDelta[/mention] you two need to participate. It doesn't feel like you're part of the game and you need to be. Just because you're lost on what's going on in here doesn't give you an excuse to just quit the game. Give us something. Please.

[juliets]

I would just sheep hyena but he's voting for me lol. I would just sheep juliets but she isn't voting currently.

@Hyena we can do vanity I guess. If he flips wolf do your worst on me. I give up.

Oh my gosh don't sheep me lol!

Just to let you know where I am right now I am reading back on TLib but also considering going back to vanity. There is a strong part of me that is saying we need to resolve him and Elephant's post just adds to that feeling. I am about to leave for the gym though and won't be back until 2:30 or so.

I have a question for [mention]Hyena[/mention] and that is are you seeing anyone else as scum besides nutella?

[juliets]

Also, I want to join the call out to [mention]Lady LambdaDelta[/mention] and [mention]Quin[/mention]. If you are town we really need you.

[nutella]

Hyena was voting vanity before and I think he sees me as associated with vanity? Unless he's now concerned about the false dichotomy/that vanity and elephant could both be town and he thinks I was taking advantage of it.

[Elephant]

I think most likely there were originally two scum among first 11 players and Trustworthy and Long Con are the most likely

[VOTE: Trustworthy Liberal] aubergine

We could do this. I feel like TL is that player in everyone's poe that the "stopping the juggernaut" article claims will flip wolf.

There's also a strange resistance to TL lynch

From?

I resist because his ISO feels townie, and I assume he would look scummy by now.

Not the strongest reasoning but ok.

Ugh maybe it really is best to resolve vanity already but I do not feel good about it

I agree, it's not the strongest reasoning. Maybe Trustworthy Liberal is very good, and I am bad at reading him.

[nutella]

Have you played with him before? Can't remember if you've said so

[Elephant]

@Elephant one thing about vanity that seems to point to him being town is he wouldn't self-pres. Do you think that was a ploy to get people to move off of him?

I have a feeling that vanity knew he didn't need to self-preserve, but I don't yet know if I'm allowed to explain it. Please have patience.

I noticed earlier that nutella has voted on all the lynches, including the two lynches that are tied. We have always assumed that these lynches were randomly decided, but there is no evidence for it. If nutella is the Doublevoter, then both ties would have been broken by her. Juliets and Creature also voted on Ty4on, but not on Boo, so they cannot be doublevoters. Since the "inception team" have a role cop, they could well have copped a top town like nutella. In that event, the scum would have been aware that the tied wagons were actually not lynching vanity, and vanity could safely grandstand a no-self-preservation.

If this is true, then nutella is subconscious-aligned. As a far-fetched alternative, the 3rd party might also have doublevoting ability. Vanity asked earlier about the independent cop, maybe that is a possibility. But I expect nutella to the town doublevoter, and scum know this. Obviously, nutella must not confirm or deny her role!

[Elephant]

Have you played with him before? Can't remember if you've said so

Yes, I have played with him before, but I don't remember much of it.

[Hyena]

I was so attached to my elephant theory for a while lol but I think I was misguided about the thing with juliets so I am backing off. It just made so much sense in my mind but I have to give her some say here.

Come at me Hyena.

Ugh, you're killing me, nutella.

[Hyena]

@Elephant and @Hyena do you feel like vanity was just fabricating his lack of knowledge about why Nanook accepted me and Elephant into the town core?

No, he might've been unaware of it. I'm just annoyed that he didn't go back to see why Elephant was being townread. Like, it doesn't really feel like Vanity has been reading Elephant's, or anybody's really, posts and that he's just blindly pushing Elephant only because of that's what he has been doing. Like, there's no effort to really change direction, aside from occasionally calling people scum when they go against him. It's this lack of effort to evaluate people that's really driving me nuts.

Like, Nutella has been swinging back and forth between Elephant and Vanity, but at least these changes are based on, like, new thoughts and info as they're posted in the thread. Vanity, on the other hand, is perfectly fine refusing to acknowledge Nutella's swinging in spite of there being clear evidence that she has been doing it, and it felt like he was fine with it only because Nutella started townreading him again.

[Hyena]

[VOTE: unvote] aubergine

[nutella]

...Wait so do you still suspect vanity or are you saying you think he's town but driving you nuts?

[Hyena]

I would just sheep hyena but he's voting for me lol. I would just sheep juliets but she isn't voting currently.

@Hyena we can do vanity I guess. If he flips wolf do your worst on me. I give up.

Well, like, here's the deal. The reason I'm wanting to do vanity is because it still feels like there are good odds that Elephant and Vanity are v/w and that Elephant feels like the more towny of the two. However, if we're feeling that they both are town, then there's no sense in lynching between the two of them anymore.

That's the thing though, however. I don't want to continue talking about Elephant vs Vanity. We've been talking about it for the last three days. Either we need to flip one of them today (I really want Vanity over Elephant), OR we need to fully decide today that they're both town. The game can't progress until we do one of those two things. I want this resolved today so that we can start focusing on other things.

[Hyena]

...Wait so do you still suspect vanity or are you saying you think he's town but driving you nuts?

I still suspect Vanity.

[Hyena]

Neither Boo's nor Ty's lynch had a huge impact on the game, I feel, because we're still focusing so much on Elephant vs Vanity. The game is going nowhere and it's getting stale. Let's get it moving again.

[Hyena]

Hyena was voting vanity before and I think he sees me as associated with vanity? Unless he's now concerned about the false dichotomy/that vanity and elephant could both be town and he thinks I was taking advantage of it.

I was doing both at different times. This time it was the latter.

[Hyena]

Also, I find it interesting that every time that TLib and Long Con are talked about, TLib is the one getting voted for and not Long Con.

[Hyena]

@Quin @Lady LambdaDelta you two need to participate. It doesn't feel like you're part of the game and you need to be. Just because you're lost on what's going on in here doesn't give you an excuse to just quit the game. Give us something. Please.

Also, I want to join the call out to @Lady LambdaDelta and @Quin. If you are town we really need you.

Yes, this^ [mention]Quin[/mention] [mention]Lady LambdaDelta[/mention]