Inception [END]

[Dom]

Eva
Pawn
Sprit


there be baddies

Eva and Sprit aren't w/w though. No way that F3 had w/w, otherwise it wouldn't have been so intense.

F3? I don;t ger your abbreviations

Final 3. Not a real one, since we're all still here, but Sprit, Eva, and I went to 'Limbo' level together and had to vote out one of us. No way 2 of 3 sent there are scum for mechanics reasons and because the way the thread went it was obvious there were not two mafia teammates working together.

understood.

[Elephant]

What is the case against Master Radish? If it's been stated this day phase in the thread please tell me who and I will look at their ISO. The posts are running together a bit for me.

I haven't seen a case yet. I suspect Radishes, because he came in early, told us of the F3 vote, and suggested that because he was the one who was lynched, Evenstar must be the mafia, for her last-minte vote switch. Radishes also mentioned some prize for the scum team that nobody else has heard of or talked about. It's early in the day, though; Michelle is correct that players should also look at what these three did on the other days, which unfortunately cuts us mostly out.

Your reading comprehension is poor on two counts - that was not my reason for Eva being mafia, and you are completely mischaracterising what I said about the so-called 'prize' (not a term I used). You're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I am referring to this:

Evenstar is scum. Lock it in. Don't listen to her.

I've had her since D2 and no one is listening to me.

Sprityo made a bad choice. I think the mafia may have gained some sort of advantage.

Those were your third and fourth posts today, I think that still counts as entrance. You later expounded:

Too intrigued to sleep yet, too tired to get involved.

Lemme back up just to orient the rest of you a bit, I'm part of the group that has been in the main thread all along. The rest who have been here the whole time and are still alive are elephant, hyena, juliets, LC, TLib. We didn't have vote restriction rules but learned about them when people joined us from other levels later. This is the "top" level where players can actually die. Or something like that lol.

We figured as much. We 'lynched' players and there were 'kills', but it was all done privately via PMs. We can't discuss it.

Sprit, Eva, and I went to the final level. Something must've been at stake but I don't know what. Anyway, Sprit voted me, Eva leapt on, so I was 'lynched'. But I'm 95% confident Eva is scum and a little annoyed at Sprit, but I think it was mainly down to lack of availability for him and me (we were rarely online together) so I'll forgive him.

(If you guys tell me Sprit is known to be tricky mafia, I may lower my confidence rating.)

Right. So read what I said again. You're mischaracterising it. I speculated on there being something to gain from limbo, but did not state there was a prize I knew about beforehand. I scumread Eva for many reasons prior to the vote, not because I was lynched/her last minute vote.

"something to gain" is the deifnition for "prize", that's just semantics.
I read your quote as if Evenstar "leaping on" was your strongest point against her; I apologize for misreading that.

[Elephant]

Also, hiiii Mendel. <3

Thank you for the warm welcome!
This is my only Syndicate account, so technically it is not an alt. JJJ knew all along, and so did nutella. I've become the Elephant because I felt a bit of an imposter for not actually advancing in the championship, because I wanted to conceal my presence from some participants (not here now), and because I wanted to try out a more considered and less emotional and aggressive posting style. I'd prefer to keep the style, though I can drop it if that helps resolve me. I guess it's good that this isn't an anon game, eh?

Hahaha it IS you! I hope this doesn't mean you will stop posting Elephant pics!

@Elephant are you Mendel? This may explain the refference to Mendel's playstyle.
<3 i still think you are scum but I hope you will understand it because randing scum is part of the game

Yes.
You still haven't answered the question.

[Michelle]

[mention]Master Radishes[/mention] when you come back please reconsider that hidden and tricky mecanics may exists and your base to consider one of you 3 scum including you is alike Vanity not self pressing at Eod.
This is not pro town play. At least not for me.
I am not a player to say nice words and I am not a good enough english speaker to be at a higher level but I am not an idiot and at logical level I am usually right. Please reconsider and vote the scummiest player, not from my top town reads ofc

[sprityo]

sprityo, I would still like to talk to you about how significant you felt your decision was yesterday. Michelle and Radishes said you knew that whoever got lynched or nightkilled would just be "kicked up" a level, back to the other players, did that factor into your thinking at all?

Not at all, i didnt even consider what might happen next, I treated it as any other final 3 situation

Evenstar says your vote made the tally a 3-way rand, how comfortable would you have been with that as the final outcome?
How do you see her last-second vote switch?

Evenstar voted almost immediately after day started for reasons i disagree with. I really dont like it still. I voted Radishes and he voted Evenstar and asked me to switch this was with about 2-3 minutes left. At this point Evenstar could leave the vote at a tie or vote MR to save herself guaranteed. On the random it's a 1/3 chance mafia hit and 2/3 town hit so as far as having to choose it's not anything i consider relevant. Voting for Radishes arguably was the better choice by pure numbers

How would you have felt if Radishes had switched his vote in that situation? Why do you think he didn't?

Switched to me? After having voted for Evenstar? Well I would'nt have a choice but to accept my fate and die....if this were a normal game. A switch after realizing i wasnt switching would definitely look bad for him. I feel like he didnt switch votes because he felt confident I would change my mind. There's actually yknow posts that I can quote too regarding that last 10 minutes.

Ok, I feel I have understood this, but please correct me if I have the nuances wrong. You were all voting each other.
* mafia!Radishes did not switch to you because he would have outed himself (almost).
* town!Radishes did not switch to you because he had conviction, and preferred a rand to lynching you.

mafia!Radishes could have switched for self-preservation.
* He already said early today that he was aware players would only get "kicked up", so he would have known that his lynch was no big deal.
* He made it into a big deal by suggestingt there was a prize of some sort involved for mafia.
* Would Evenstar have reacted to Radishes switching? Knowing her, she probably would So successful self-preservation was doubtful unless done at the very end.

Sprityo, you could have self-preserved onto Evenstar in that situation. Why did you decide against it?

Evenstar had done more work and had garnered my trust that day. I was essentially stuck with voting with Radishes who had a kinda bland, uninspiring play most the game, or evenstar who had a couple noteworthy slip ups and not very town looks (in my mind) but at the same time had a lot of stuff i agreed with. This is not to say Radishes did not put forth a better more easy to understand effort that day, it's just i weighed Evenstar's convictions as stronger and more towny at the time.

[sprityo]

There wouldve been no point to voting evenstar if they had both voted me, it being so late in the phase. The timing for me was just bad really I was dead tired and not able to perform at top quality at 2 am

[sprityo]

Also sorry for the absence my internet went out, ill be getting radishes' posts now

[Michelle]

Also, hiiii Mendel. <3

Thank you for the warm welcome!
This is my only Syndicate account, so technically it is not an alt. JJJ knew all along, and so did nutella. I've become the Elephant because I felt a bit of an imposter for not actually advancing in the championship, because I wanted to conceal my presence from some participants (not here now), and because I wanted to try out a more considered and less emotional and aggressive posting style. I'd prefer to keep the style, though I can drop it if that helps resolve me. I guess it's good that this isn't an anon game, eh?

Hahaha it IS you! I hope this doesn't mean you will stop posting Elephant pics!

@Elephant are you Mendel? This may explain the refference to Mendel's playstyle.
<3 i still think you are scum but I hope you will understand it because randing scum is part of the game

Yes.
You still haven't answered the question.

Your playstyle it's not a reading method. And posting minimalist also is not. The difference is in wording. And in my own soul who reads. I am helped while playing by the use of my intuition,

Now that I know you should know I am villager, keeping that vote of yours may help me in my case to demonstrate you are scum

[Elephant]

There wouldve been no point to voting evenstar if they had both voted me, it being so late in the phase. The timing for me was just bad really I was dead tired and not able to perform at top quality at 2 am

Thank you for your answers! I have the impression that this was a difficult situation for all of you.

[sprityo]

Notable posts by Master Radishes Day 4

Spoiler: show

Let's start with me.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:38 am
sprityo
Frankly, it really goes against my instincts to be voting you right now. Radishes is inconsistent and wobbly, pushed me for stupid reasons, and accepted that the spiny post cleared me way too easily. I think, in my heart of hearts, even as I am voting you, that he's the scum here. I'm stomping on it 'cause I'm at lylo and therefore I am wrong.

sprityo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:49 am
So between the option of Radishes who I haven’t tried to scrutinize. The man who was drawing a lot of different view points from everyone yesterday (and I think day 2 as well?). Points of interest I remember about Radishes was his and Pawn’s “You’re copying me” type deal with reads

By all means I would be the one lynched here since Evenstar and Radihes have the same reads. But if mafia is picking who goes where...then that would be what they want and too easy. I’m going to apply Occam’s Razor and go with that’s the case.

Radishes seemed to have pretty consistent reads from what I can remember as well. As in they didn’t change if at all. Evenstar is going to be a bag of cats to dissect
So the two real points against me appear to be my 'wobbly and inconsistent' play (what does that even mean?) and my 'pretty consistent reads' (which isn't true).

My play has been the same since the beginning; any wobbliness comes from three things:
(a) adapting my gameplay to the non-voting/non-rereading mechanics
(b) unfamiliarity with me/my meta
(c) the fact I never truly let go of my scum!Evenstar read and was trying to work around it

My reads did change:
(i) Jack went from mild SR to mild TR to strong SR (bottom 3) to strong TR
(ii) Colin went from TR to a bottom 3 SR
(iii) Epi went from SR to TR
(iv) Sprityo went from SR to uncertain TR
...etc. Rabbit was a strong TR throughout, but beyond that everything was in flux to some extent.

Spoiler: show

Aaaaand a bunch more posts.

It's 6:30am here and I need to leave for work soon. It's a full day of teaching for me, no real breaks start to finish, so I'm going to have to keep it to cliffs notes versions for now. We have a day and a half still.


Evenstar - everything I'm seeing looks the opposite of the town!Eva I've seen. I've never played with her, and it's different to watch from spec chat, but she looks...uncertain. Also, the Nook and potentially Pawn kills fit her meta perfectly. And lest we forget her D1 vote at 3 mins remaining nearly prevented Drago being lynched. The big point against this theory is if Spiny spewed her Mason, but without access to the main thread I can't check.

Sprityo - has been laying low and is now suddenly here and active, which is nagl for anyone. D1-D3 posting left me uninspired. Emotional outbursts can be faked. The big point against this case is that he's also shown a propensity to be much more insightful than his low-posting would indicate, such as countering theories with logical points others had missed, and how this round his biggest post ^^ showed me he's been paying much more attention than I realised.


I won't 'hide' the fact that I am still leaning towards Evenstar as scum. But I suppose in F3 due diligence is needed, so I'll duly and diligently try to see the opposite world.

Spoiler: show

sprityo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:27 am
Open Question:

What's the Singular biggest reason to Town read the other two players

And what is the Singular biggest reason to read them Mafia?

I'll be doing mine
Kind of did this above ^ but will do it again in brief.

Town!Eva = Spinyboo's Mason as per *that* post
Scum!Eva = overall passive and uncertain play

Town!Sprit = insightful posts that show townie thought process
Scum!Sprit = macro-level play is uninspiring; has been laying low

Spoiler: show

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:28 am
Radishes, uncertainty means I don't have TMI. Go look at the ridiculous confidence with which I pushed the X Cult thing, for a start.

The vote is a bad look, I agree. I wouldn't read into the kills like that though, because I know Lexi, Mac and you all have enough meta on me to frame me. Also, do you really think I would let both Lexi and Pawn persist in the same game with me for more than one daycycle? That's seriously bad juju, man.

Eh. You had confidence in the Finale and were town. You had confidence of D1 in this game. The uncertainty I could forgive on D2 for awhile because, you know, it took us by surprise, but aside from a brief attack on Pawn you’ve come across as very passive, and that is not a look I’m used to seeing on you (with admittedly a low amount of meta). I think ‘passive’ is better than ‘uncertain’ here as a term, though.

As for who you’d kill and what you’d do, that’s WIFOM. But to entertain the discussion for a moment: LLD is clearly a non-factor this game, and Pawn was deep in your pocket until yesterday. The other known kill was Nook, who you know from the Finale, so 'fits' who you might choose, as I do believe you're the type of mafia who kills players they think could be dangerous for them personally.

And one of the reasons I think Pawn is the likely MK is because he’s exactly who you wouldn’t want here right now if you were scum. Whereas scum!Sprit keeps him because he’s mislynch bait and there’s no meta, and scum!Sprit MKs Epi or Dom or someone who knows him better and may be able to find him.

I never kill Pawn (or colin) for the same reason, since no one knows my meta so I’m mainly concerned about having viable bait if I’m scum. I consider killing Rabbit or Epi, I'd hazard.

But this is all WIFOM more than anything, and truthfully isn’t a strong piece of evidence for me, so feel free to ignore this thread of discussion. It just…fits, is all.

Spoiler: show

sprityo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:02 pm

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:32 am
My reads did change:
(i) Jack went from mild SR to mild TR to strong SR (bottom 3) to strong TR
(ii) Colin went from TR to a bottom 3 SR
(iii) Epi went from SR to TR
(iv) Sprityo went from SR to uncertain TR

So do you remember the reasons for these changes? or at least when they happened?

Jack – on D1 I didn’t like his lack of contribution, but he engaged with Eva/Nutella in a way I felt was townie, hence my strong TR (which no one at the time liked; I got a lot of flack for it). His D1 vote was one I pegged as a potential scum vote if there was a campaign to save Drago. Throughout D2 I felt Jack did little again, and by PoE he slipped down to my mushy middle 3. Yesterday I felt his contributions improved and he actually was playing the game. He was also completely different from everyone on reads and style, which makes me think town more than scum; he wasn’t trying to be blendy, but ended up being so. I think I had another reason to like him but I forget now. I ended with him as an upper mid-3.

Colin – barely remember Rej in that slot, but when Colin entered D2 I felt there was some attempt to delve in to the game without worrying about how he appeared. I acknowledged him as a PoE candidate, but kept him at that until D3 due to lack of content. When I began to seriously ISO people realised I had zero reason to read him as...anything. I saw no townie posts, no scum posts. Just blah posts. So by end of D3 he slipped to my bottom 3. What I had read as townie nonchalance I now was reading as scum blend-alance.

Epi – I put him in a ‘potential scum vote on D1’ slot. I also accused him of trying to bury the thread with all his analysis, much of which I felt was a bit useless. He took issue with all this and reasoned with me at beginning of D2. I liked our interaction and kept him in the Mid-3 for awhile (not higher since I knew he had a rep). His attack on Rabbit felt to me like a dog who felt he had a bone in a townie way, and he seemed a bit put out when the doublevoter thing put his idea to rest. He had pushed hard and without regard for how he came across. He also put in more effort than most others in our various levels, which is not a towntell per se but buys him some goodwill considering how I've felt the D2/D3 threads were rather lacking it despite the postcount being reasonable. I think scum ride out that thread uncertainty rather than raise the effort level.

Sprityo – there was a D1 post I felt was bad, and many others agreed at the time, but there wasn’t enough to build more of a case there. In D2 I again felt his posts lacked substance, and by PoE he floated around my bottom 3. By D3 I began to re-evaluate, as in ISOing him I felt there was nothing particularly scummy to find, and in turn the (now much discussed) ‘points of logic’ pointed in his favour. He remained in my PoE, but was climbing out of it.


Additions:

Dom - went from null (lack of content) to slight TR (for not giving af how he looked as he finally entered the thread) to slightly firmer TR (for having some decent points hidden amongst his dickish-- I mean aggression.)

Iaafr - strong TR throughout based on style and substance. I get how his style rubs people the wrong way, but I was used to it from MU spec chat and so saw through it fairly easily. Purest one of all, IMO.



And with further detail, since I see him being discussed later in this thread:

Pawn – He and I were on the same page so much I did worry about a deepwolf and said as much, but otherwise felt he was very townie. When Eva attacked him I felt his responses were cogent, and did not shift my opinion much there when all was said and done. But at the end of D3 I listed my best reason for townreading everyone, and I realised I didn’t really have a better reason to TR him than ‘I like what he says’ (I don’t remember exactly what I worded it as). After considering others, e.g. Dom, Epi, Jack, etc, he ended up in my bottom 3 a bit by default, as I had better reasons to TR others, but was not necessarily SRing him, if that makes sense. I admit also to a touch of paranoia (I called him a deepwolf way before anyone else started to SR him!). But I can’t specify anything more with regards to that, I think.

Spoiler: show

Geezus Eva – sorry if this is a backhanded compliment, but that may be your best post of the game. THIS is the player I’ve been expecting but not seeing. *cough*fightingforsurvival*cough*

I mean, it’s got a lot wrong with it, but points for trying anyway.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
I expect to be able to understand your reasoning for why certain people are town or scum, since we come from a similar environment and you claim to have some idea how my brain works and how to pitch me a case, but everything you've personally come up with has left me cold.

Do we come from a similar environment? I don’t know that we do. I rarely play away from my homesite and I’ve not played ‘competitive’ Mafia (as it were) in years. I just happened to watch Champs this year (to cheer on 112) and JJJ twisted my arm to join (he and I go back to Season 2).

I also don’t claim to know how your brain works. I only claim to have watched a couple games of yours, heard your rep, discussed you in spec chat, etc. Your style of playing is, I believe, actually quite different from mine.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You called me scum D2&3 based on my late D1 vote, then said you were having doubts early in D3 and used that to justify accepting Spiny's post as a clear on me. When me and Pawn called you on it, you backtracked hastily. Today you're maintaining that your heavy scumread of me remained strong for the whole day. So what you said about having doubts on D3 was a lie, then?

Creating narratives won’t work on me, fyi. I did not use anything to ‘justify’ anything. And I certainly did not backtrack ‘hastily’. (Who was saying things about adverbs being scumtells? I like the theory, I’ve decided.) There’s been no lie about my read on you.

Let’s try again.

After townreading you D1 for a generally solid tone, your vote pinged me, and I put your name forward as an option. Iaafr, Pawn, Epi, and even Jack all shut me down. Look, say what you want about me, but I’m a team player – if my team tells me I’m wrong, I’ve learned to listen. Now, I’m not calling all of them villagers, but certainly at the time I read most of them as such, and still do to various extents. So I shrugged and backed off.

As is natural, yes, doubts crept in. And I did try to recalibrate my view of the game and create a town!Eva world. I didn’t really get anywhere, though, because I couldn’t get it out of my mind. I hoped the dream levels would re-combine or something and I would get different opinions and/or not be in a level with you. (And now here we are. Sigh.)

In D3, Rabbit brought up the Spiny post. As a general rule of thumb, I always err on the side of believing claims, even if I have doubts. So yes, I latched on to that as a means to force me to stop tunneling. And still no one else was expressing doubt about you anyway, so I did feel on an island. And I simply don’t have the time or energy in this game to make everyone swim to my island. (Not sure that metaphor made sense…) So I let it be and continued to focus on looking for scum through other methods.


I’ll continue this train of thought in a future post. Let’s continue responding to your points.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You scumread Jack early in D3, putting him in your bottom 3 IIRC. He remained there for some time, and then I made my post about how the current PoE felt bad and I thought Jack, Colin, Dom, Sprityo were all bad cases and that Jack in particular was ML bait because he has no defenders at all. You seemed vaguely convinced by this and moved off your scumread, but returned to it later in the day for reasons that aren't really clear to me, and AFAIK that was where you left off. Now you're saying that you reversed your position again and hard-townread Jack? I don't understand the reasoning behind your flip-flops here.

You have misremembered and/or misinterpreted.

First of all, where do you get the idea any post you made changed my mind on anything? You were not the first to suggest the low-posting PoE felt bad; in fact, I was on that as early as D2. I had a brief discussion with Pawn about it. (He basically shrugged at it and said it was the best PoE for now.)

My read on Jack has bounced like a yo-yo, that’s true, but it’s been doing that all game because he posted so much whilst saying so little and refused to engage in conversations or really explain his reads in more than a brief sentence. I can’t read that style well, so my read has bounced around. As explained in an above post directed at Sprityo, I did a list near the end of D3 and found decent reasons to TR Jack, whereas my SR had always been for fairly lazy ‘he’s not doing much’ reasons.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Throughout the entire day you were "townreading" Pawn with a deeply uncertain tone. I don't recall if you actually flipped on him when I pushed him, but I definitely don't recall you defending him... and checking my spreadsheet here, it looks like one of your final 3 options was Pawn.

Explained above to Sprit. Pawn’s posts showed a similar thought process to mine, so that made me a bit concerned but overall made me TR him. I wasn’t around when you pushed him, and concluded it hadn’t changed my opinion. He ended up in my final 3 by PoE as I didn’t find a better reason to TR him than I did for a couple others who had been hovering down my list, e.g. Jack.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Epi, on the other hand, you entered the day scumreading... and then slowly slid into a townread based IIRC on his push of Rabbit, which to my eyes was excessive and unfair. You did this while townreading Rabbit, and made no attempt to break up the conflict between two of your townreads. It feels extremely convenient to me that you slid into townreading Epi in this fashion.

False. Epi was a town read all of D3. It was strengthened by the Rabbit thing, that's true. But it was D2 I started the day uncertain on Epi, and had changed by the end of the phase.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
I think you did make a brief post about Pawn "slanking" or "coasting" at one point, but I certainly don't recall any major contributions from you at EoD. (Unless it was you who was tinfoiling a Pawn/me scumteam? I'm fairly sure that was earlier in the day anyway.)

It was me, but you’re right it was earlier.

There were no major contributions at EoD because I wasn’t here.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You slid towards "Jack is town" following me; you slid towards "Pawn is scum" following Epi. You claim to have only townread Pawn in the first place based on the fact that Rabbit thought he was town. You backed off your position that I was scum very quickly when Spiny's post came up, and then backed right back onto it just as quickly when I called you out on it.

All of these are false. You're either trying to create a narrative about me being a follower, or you misremember my posts/the timing of them.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You try not to get involved in conflicts in the thread, and are particularly likely to ambiguously-townread strong players like Epi and Pawn. It seems important to you that perceptive people like Epi not have reason to look at you too close: while I'm also known as a strong player, it's a lot easier to brush off suspicion from me than from someone like Epignosis, which makes your persistent scumread of me slot quite neatly into a world where I'm being framed.

That's another nice narrative, but also not true. I would agree I’m not a ‘confrontational’ player, but at the same time all the ‘conflicts’ have happened when I haven’t been in the thread. So I haven't exactly been able to get involved.

You could categorise my TRs of Epi and Pawn as ambiguous, sure. Or perhaps 'uncertain'? Weren’t you just defending my accusations of your ‘uncertainty’ by pointing out that’s a towntell? My reads of Epi and Pawn have fluctuated between varying levels of certainty, and I see nothing wrong with that.

(Also, for the record, I’d rather Epi come after me than you. You’re scary when you want to be.)

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
As for your analysis content, I recall one solid analysis post at the beginning of D2 regarding the votals, and thereafter your reads have felt confused, vague and underspecified.

This is…fair. Or, rather, I feel that’s not the case, but enough people have said something like this to me so far that I can accept I’m not making myself as clear as I need to be. It’s a bit unfair to attack my lack of analysis, though, considering there’s very little to analyse without past threads, and I could easily say the same about you.

Also, I love ‘votals’. Haven’t seen that one before.

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
I've had to prod you for reasoning multiple times,

You have done no such thing. You’ve engaged me about twice in this game. I was paying attention because I was waiting for a post such as this and never got it.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
but they score points for getting louder in lylo while you seem to be becoming quieter.
Completely unfair. My timezone is different from yours and I’ve explained that today was particularly busy for me. I have about 3 hours max per day on for this game, and a lot of that has been spent simply reading up. As for this round, it started at 11pm for me, and so I’ve had all of one hour this morning so far.


---

My concern with your reasoning here is that so much seems predicated on things that are twisted, misrepresented, or in some cases simply untrue. Suggesting my reads have felt ‘confused, vague, and underspecified’ is the best thing about it, as you’re not the only player so far to feel that way, so clearly I’ve not done a good enough job projecting my thoughts. But essentially everything else feels more like you’re scraping the barrel for reasons to cast doubt on me in any way you can.

Spoiler: show

Geezus Eva – sorry if this is a backhanded compliment, but that may be your best post of the game. THIS is the player I’ve been expecting but not seeing. *cough*fightingforsurvival*cough*

I mean, it’s got a lot wrong with it, but points for trying anyway.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
I expect to be able to understand your reasoning for why certain people are town or scum, since we come from a similar environment and you claim to have some idea how my brain works and how to pitch me a case, but everything you've personally come up with has left me cold.
Do we come from a similar environment? I don’t know that we do. I rarely play away from my homesite and I’ve not played ‘competitive’ Mafia (as it were) in years. I just happened to watch Champs this year (to cheer on 112) and JJJ twisted my arm to join (he and I go back to Season 2).

I also don’t claim to know how your brain works. I only claim to have watched a couple games of yours, heard your rep, discussed you in spec chat, etc. Your style of playing is, I believe, actually quite different from mine.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You called me scum D2&3 based on my late D1 vote, then said you were having doubts early in D3 and used that to justify accepting Spiny's post as a clear on me. When me and Pawn called you on it, you backtracked hastily. Today you're maintaining that your heavy scumread of me remained strong for the whole day. So what you said about having doubts on D3 was a lie, then?
Creating narratives won’t work on me, fyi. I did not use anything to ‘justify’ anything. And I certainly did not backtrack ‘hastily’. (Who was saying things about adverbs being scumtells? I like the theory, I’ve decided.) There’s been no lie about my read on you.

Let’s try again.

After townreading you D1 for a generally solid tone, your vote pinged me, and I put your name forward as an option. Iaafr, Pawn, Epi, and even Jack all shut me down. Look, say what you want about me, but I’m a team player – if my team tells me I’m wrong, I’ve learned to listen. Now, I’m not calling all of them villagers, but certainly at the time I read most of them as such, and still do to various extents. So I shrugged and backed off.

As is natural, yes, doubts crept in. And I did try to recalibrate my view of the game and create a town!Eva world. I didn’t really get anywhere, though, because I couldn’t get it out of my mind. I hoped the dream levels would re-combine or something and I would get different opinions and/or not be in a level with you. (And now here we are. Sigh.)

In D3, Rabbit brought up the Spiny post. As a general rule of thumb, I always err on the side of believing claims, even if I have doubts. So yes, I latched on to that as a means to force me to stop tunneling. And still no one else was expressing doubt about you anyway, so I did feel on an island. And I simply don’t have the time or energy in this game to make everyone swim to my island. (Not sure that metaphor made sense…) So I let it be and continued to focus on looking for scum through other methods.


I’ll continue this train of thought in a future post. Let’s continue responding to your points.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You scumread Jack early in D3, putting him in your bottom 3 IIRC. He remained there for some time, and then I made my post about how the current PoE felt bad and I thought Jack, Colin, Dom, Sprityo were all bad cases and that Jack in particular was ML bait because he has no defenders at all. You seemed vaguely convinced by this and moved off your scumread, but returned to it later in the day for reasons that aren't really clear to me, and AFAIK that was where you left off. Now you're saying that you reversed your position again and hard-townread Jack? I don't understand the reasoning behind your flip-flops here.
You have misremembered and/or misinterpreted.

First of all, where do you get the idea any post you made changed my mind on anything? You were not the first to suggest the low-posting PoE felt bad; in fact, I was on that as early as D2. I had a brief discussion with Pawn about it. (He basically shrugged at it and said it was the best PoE for now.)

My read on Jack has bounced like a yo-yo, that’s true, but it’s been doing that all game because he posted so much whilst saying so little and refused to engage in conversations or really explain his reads in more than a brief sentence. I can’t read that style well, so my read has bounced around. As explained in an above post directed at Sprityo, I did a list near the end of D3 and found decent reasons to TR Jack, whereas my SR had always been for fairly lazy ‘he’s not doing much’ reasons.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Throughout the entire day you were "townreading" Pawn with a deeply uncertain tone. I don't recall if you actually flipped on him when I pushed him, but I definitely don't recall you defending him... and checking my spreadsheet here, it looks like one of your final 3 options was Pawn.
Explained above to Sprit. Pawn’s posts showed a similar thought process to mine, so that made me a bit concerned but overall made me TR him. I wasn’t around when you pushed him, and concluded it hadn’t changed my opinion. He ended up in my final 3 by PoE as I didn’t find a better reason to TR him than I did for a couple others who had been hovering down my list, e.g. Jack.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Epi, on the other hand, you entered the day scumreading... and then slowly slid into a townread based IIRC on his push of Rabbit, which to my eyes was excessive and unfair. You did this while townreading Rabbit, and made no attempt to break up the conflict between two of your townreads. It feels extremely convenient to me that you slid into townreading Epi in this fashion.
False. Epi was a town read all of D3. It was strengthened by the Rabbit thing, that's true. But it was D2 I started the day uncertain on Epi, and had changed by the end of the phase.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
I think you did make a brief post about Pawn "slanking" or "coasting" at one point, but I certainly don't recall any major contributions from you at EoD. (Unless it was you who was tinfoiling a Pawn/me scumteam? I'm fairly sure that was earlier in the day anyway.)
It was me, but you’re right it was earlier.

There were no major contributions at EoD because I wasn’t here.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You slid towards "Jack is town" following me; you slid towards "Pawn is scum" following Epi. You claim to have only townread Pawn in the first place based on the fact that Rabbit thought he was town. You backed off your position that I was scum very quickly when Spiny's post came up, and then backed right back onto it just as quickly when I called you out on it.
All of these are false. You're either trying to create a narrative about me being a follower, or you misremember my posts/the timing of them.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
You try not to get involved in conflicts in the thread, and are particularly likely to ambiguously-townread strong players like Epi and Pawn. It seems important to you that perceptive people like Epi not have reason to look at you too close: while I'm also known as a strong player, it's a lot easier to brush off suspicion from me than from someone like Epignosis, which makes your persistent scumread of me slot quite neatly into a world where I'm being framed.
That's another nice narrative, but also not true. I would agree I’m not a ‘confrontational’ player, but at the same time all the ‘conflicts’ have happened when I haven’t been in the thread. So I haven't exactly been able to get involved.

You could categorise my TRs of Epi and Pawn as ambiguous, sure. Or perhaps 'uncertain'? Weren’t you just defending my accusations of your ‘uncertainty’ by pointing out that’s a towntell? My reads of Epi and Pawn have fluctuated between varying levels of certainty, and I see nothing wrong with that.

(Also, for the record, I’d rather Epi come after me than you. You’re scary when you want to be.)

Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
As for your analysis content, I recall one solid analysis post at the beginning of D2 regarding the votals, and thereafter your reads have felt confused, vague and underspecified.
This is…fair. Or, rather, I feel that’s not the case, but enough people have said something like this to me so far that I can accept I’m not making myself as clear as I need to be. It’s a bit unfair to attack my lack of analysis, though, considering there’s very little to analyse without past threads, and I could easily say the same about you.

Also, I love ‘votals’. Haven’t seen that one before.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
I've had to prod you for reasoning multiple times,
You have done no such thing. You’ve engaged me about twice in this game. I was paying attention because I was waiting for a post such as this and never got it.
Evenstar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm
but they score points for getting louder in lylo while you seem to be becoming quieter.
Completely unfair. My timezone is different from yours and I’ve explained that today was particularly busy for me. I have about 3 hours max per day on for this game, and a lot of that has been spent simply reading up. As for this round, it started at 11pm for me, and so I’ve had all of one hour this morning so far.


---

My concern with your reasoning here is that so much seems predicated on things that are twisted, misrepresented, or in some cases simply untrue. Suggesting my reads have felt ‘confused, vague, and underspecified’ is the best thing about it, as you’re not the only player so far to feel that way, so clearly I’ve not done a good enough job projecting my thoughts. But essentially everything else feels more like you’re scraping the barrel for reasons to cast doubt on me in any way you can.

Spoiler: show

The case against Sprityo

There’s obviously less here, since Sprit has posted less. But let’s see what we got.

--D1 he made an opening post that was basically fluff, e.g. ‘Oh these two people are fighting, I’ll stay out of that’ with no analytical content or anything. I called him on it and several agreed, and Sprit’s response was to basically say he hadn’t intended to be analytical, just a catch up for himself. I still know why he needed to *post* it then.

--D2 he was one of the slankers, and was generally ignored until closer to the end. I think I was the one to first raise this. Sprit…again didn’t really have much of a response. But as I recall it, Nova and Sprit became the two real wagons by EoD2. My sense of the thread at that point was that it was 50/50. The fact Sprit remained could suggest the scum voted Nova (presumably as a bloc, since it’s private). This is interesting, as if it was a v/v situation why did they choose to help lynch the bigger slanker? It could indicate Sprit was a wolf wagon in this situation.

--Sprit had that emotional outburst; that’s a post that is easily faked. He’s certainly seemed calmer since.

--In D3 there was more activity, but the quality of contribution remained variable. Aside from a couple insightful moments, which are somewhat NAI anyway, he coasted through without ever really being under the heaviest of fire.

--His start this Day has been better. Although now that Eva and I are going at it, he seems content to recede to the background again.



Unfortunately that’s about all I remember from Sprit. And a lot of it relies on speculation.

There’s a very plausible world where Sprit is mafia here – it doesn’t take much to imagine it.

[sprityo]

[mention]Evenstar[/mention] [mention]Master Radishes[/mention] feel free to quote all my relevant content as you see fit

[sprityo]

Epi, I see you browsing currently, would love to hear your opinion on some of the things we were talking about day 4

[Long Con]

So you guys didn't get a lynch result on that level?

[sprityo]

So you guys didn't get a lynch result on that level?

Nope, All that happened was Master Radishes was lynched. That's all the Host posted aside from the flavor

[Evenstar]

exactly one of Radishes and Sprityo is scum
exactly one of Epignosis is scum

Epi has been PoE clamped by the fact that layers exist.

[mention]Elephant[/mention], this is the answer to your question: please read it carefully, I don't want to have to go through all this for a fourth time.

There's going to be exactly one scum in the 3rd layer after me and radish and sprityo leave, because there must be at least one scum in each layer for this game to make any sense and the 3rd layer was a 9er so there's no way there were 3+ scum in it.

F3 cannot be fake (all town or two wolves) because I don't think JJJ is that hardcore a sadist.

So there are four people left in the layer after Colin is lynched and Pawn is NK'd.

(The fact Pawn is NK'd tells us there are probably still scum in the layer because if JJJ allows kills across layers I will be very cross. )

So then the scum is one of:
Epi
Jack
Dom
Rabbit

Rabbit cannot be the scum because if he was he would go to F3 with me and pocket me to hell.
Dom cannot be the scum because he is a highly implausible partner for either Radishes or Sprityo.
Jack cannot be the scum because he was almost lazy-lynched on D3 the same way we lazy-lynched Nova on D2. (Super unsurprised that flipped town, tbh.)

Epi cannot pocket me at F3.
Epi can be Rabbit or Sprityo's partner.
Epi has seen pressure but has never really become a viable lynch target.

On top of all that, he's repeatedly tunneled the entire townblock of me, Pawn and Rabbit, hasn't produced real analysis since his D2 walls, and is softing that he's able to communicate with other layers.

Yes, I acknowledge there may be such a town role. But if it exists, Epi is not the person who has it. Epi is fake-claiming using a standard mafia ability. This is not dissimilar from the ever popular fake scum cop gambit: he's taking the fact that he has TMI and trying to use it to claim a power role. That is bullshit and I won't stand for it.

I am entirely willing to thunderdome Epi today, and frankly don't really care if he ends up winning it. Given Radishes' zombielike persistence and the carefully-constructed frame that's been built here, I probably don't live more than a day even if I do manage to dunk him.

[Long Con]

10 pages to read, i can do this today.

My mafia reads from previous days Dom, Elephant, probably LLD and I need to read for more.
Town reads Quin, Pawn, probably all others in the last 2 days when we played in 5 except LLD

AMA

How strong are these reads and can you cliffnotes them for me again please. I kinda just want to copy your homework haha.

Very strong i will proove it with quotes since day 1.

I suspect Elephant since then. Now that Nutella says he masterminded Vanity's lynch this makes it like he is lock scum in my eyes.
I can look at this more clear because I still have day 1 feelings more close without dozen of pages of infos on top

I read that earlier and I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Elephant was the original casemaker against vanity, but I think that was on Day 2. Was Elephant the main thrust all the way through to Day 4? Nutella came in at the beginning of Day 4 with a vanity vote in her very first post, and then juliets followed suit very quickly. [mention]nutella[/mention] Why is Elephant the mastermind, that's a strong word.

[Long Con]

So you guys didn't get a lynch result on that level?

Nope, All that happened was Master Radishes was lynched. That's all the Host posted aside from the flavor

How did you three all get all they way down there? Did you make decisions on your movement? I'm a nondreaming kind of dude here, why wasn't I invited?

[Elephant]

I can't make much sense of Michelle's D0/D1 ISO, but I found these two gems.

kill Michelle she's not Towny

yeah i'd expect to have a townread on michelle at this point if she were a villa

[VOTE: michelle] aubergine

wait you voted me before reading my Iso? -_-

i guess michelle is posting more than i know of her scum meta but uhh

no townread still

defaults to a wolfread

omgus suits you

I'd vote Radishes over Sprityo and Evenstar right now, but it's still earlay in the day.

[Evenstar]

Sprityo and radishes are irrelvant at this point. The vig will solve my PoE.

[Long Con]

Anyway, I'm at the top of 125. Gotta go to work for a few hours, then I'm on my weekend until Tuesday.

[Michelle]

Morning Juliets ^^
Nutella told me you have a TR on Dom and she trusts you. While we were in the dream thread I had nothing to do but think at the sorrounding players. We were few and Dom sticked out as scummy like a sore thumb.
What gives you your TR on him?

Good morning Michelle, it's not Dom I town read. I can't even remember what he posted day 1 and haven't been with him since. Right now I'm not claiming to have a TR on anyone in my group as I want to re-evaluate everyone (I think I stated this earlier) no matter how strong my town read was in the past days.

[mention]nutella[/mention] you said Juliets TRs Dom? I think you have old news

[Dom]

Maybe the vig doesn't give a shit about your POE

[Evenstar]

Maybe the vig doesn't give a shit about your POE

Trust me, the vig will solve my POE.

[Elephant]

Sprityo and radishes are irrelvant at this point. The vig will solve my PoE.

Since D3, I'm not so sure that we still have an active vigilante, but it's possible.

Thank you for your explanation!

[Hyena]

My boyfriend wants me to play Fortnite with him, but I've got some time before that happens.

FITE ME

[Hyena]

Catching up right now. Going through from the beginning of day 2 and today simultaneously. All I will say is that I want the head of the people behind the Spiny lynch.

Come at me.

wait,

you lynched spiny?

Yes. :P

[VOTE: hyena] aubergine

I am informed there is a vig

\o\
/o/
\o/!!

[Epignosis]

More than I'm allowed to say.

Thank you for scumclaiming.

I was forbidden by the host from talking about it.

Good luck finding favor around here with your humility.

I cannot think of any role that would have access between layers - the power you are clearly softing and have been for a while - other than a mafioso.

I recognize you probably cannot productively engage with this accusation given the frankly bizarre and confining anti-claim rules here, but nonetheless this is a major reason for my scumread of you.

I am not concerned with finding favor: I am concerned with finding scum. I feel that your derisive and dismissive treatment of everyone who scumreads you is a defensive strategy you are deliberately employing to increase the social cost of trying to lynch you and thereby encourage doubt. I believe that this strategy also harms the enjoyment and morale of those around you, thereby discouraging them from engaging productively with the game. This game is already an unusually high-stress environment due to its highly eccentric mechanics that hide vital information from the players, and so maintaining Town morale should be a high priority. You are visibly failing to prioritize this goal in favour of yelling at players who are not scumhunting in a way you approve of. That makes you more likely to be scum.

I did not intend to start writing a case on you, here; I intended to go to bed. This seems like a logical breakpoint as it explains why being "not nice" makes you scum. I still need to address multiple other reasons why I believe you are scum - some quite major - but for the sake of my own stress levels I'm going to stop here. If you are town, I would encourage you to think carefully about how your play makes everyone you accuse believe you to be scum.

Goodnight.

.......oh shit. Epi is a forum admin. Which means he probably has access to the layers regardless, but the hosts would realize that and he'd be honest about it so it could be that they just incorporated it into his role in the game. If they hadn't made it kosher for him to just read the other threads I believe he wouldn't do it.

But I disagree that that's a scum role, because scum would already have people distributed and get info that way, so it makes total sense for a townie to get that ability.

I think he is a scum softing the fact he's in scumchat and therefore can get his mafia buddies to fetch him stuff from other levels as a "power".

That makes no sense lmao. Read what I've said, it's occam's razor. He's an admin, he's not allowed to talk about it, it's whatever. He's probably town.

I don't understand the fuss about this.

If I could see a thread, I would assume I could post there, and would have done so.

I wonder if mafia had access to all the game threads. If that's the case, they could have seen the people here D2 having doubts about Evenstar and 112 and started pushing those two in preparation for when we all joined back up here.

Didn't you see Epignosis reading here?

I should rephrase that. One of us spotted Epignosis as viewing this thread D2. I don't remember who it was, it might have been Hyena. I don't remember what we concluded from it, but the "access" suggestion pinged this recollection.

The only time I was reading this thread after Day 1 was during Night 1. If I were reading this thread Day 2, what does that do to your opinion of me? Am I bad? Good? How does that information impact your view?

[Epignosis]

Epi, I see you browsing currently, would love to hear your opinion on some of the things we were talking about day 4

Just because my name is at the bottom of the page doesn't mean I'm reading.

[Epignosis]

Don't need anything in my play. The Syndicate people will tell you I'm a civilian. Get used to it hon. This is my civilian bod. It's sexy.

Who are "the syndicate people" who are still with us? Colin, Dom, Epignosis, Jack, Juliets, Long Con, Radishes, nutella, Quin, Sprityo? Anyone who knows, please confirm or correct this list!

This was tongue-in-cheek, a nod to some bizarre theory that gained currency in one of our sub-threads.

Who are "the syndicate people" who are still with us? Colin, Dom, Epignosis, Jack, Juliets, Long Con, Radishes, nutella, Quin, Sprityo? Anyone who knows, please confirm or correct this list!

Day 23: I have successfully blended into the community. No one suspected I'm an outsider.



I'm not a Syndicater, but I'll take it as a compliment to be associated with these wonderful people and Jack.

So that must mean you're mafia.

[Epignosis]

Radishes sir, why thunderdome, why not lynch Elephant who is scum?

Because a lynchpool of 3 is a decent one. Elephant is one of 6? players who existed through the same level and voted out several townies, which leaves more room for error that he might be misguided town. Not saying definitively that's what I believe, but odds are better amongst 3.

what lynchpool? Tell me please the players.

Eva/Sprit/Radishes

We were in an F3 'limbo' together and we all agree one of us must be scum because otherwise it made no sense.

I don't agree with this. All three of you are alive. The votes you all made were therefore not for a lynch.

[Epignosis]

Civilians are going to lose because the subject that should be the main focus of discussion is being overlooked.

Dragomir is dead. He was mafia.

Who are his partners and why?

[Evenstar]

Radishes sir, why thunderdome, why not lynch Elephant who is scum?

Because a lynchpool of 3 is a decent one. Elephant is one of 6? players who existed through the same level and voted out several townies, which leaves more room for error that he might be misguided town. Not saying definitively that's what I believe, but odds are better amongst 3.

what lynchpool? Tell me please the players.

Eva/Sprit/Radishes

We were in an F3 'limbo' together and we all agree one of us must be scum because otherwise it made no sense.

I don't agree with this. All three of you are alive. The votes you all made were therefore not for a lynch.

Epi, please do not resort to "the final 3 was fake." That's disrespectful to all of us who were there as well as the moderators. We played our hearts out for two days trying to figure out the scum, and I'm not prepared to accept that Sloonei and JJJ would be such utter bastard moderators as to make it all a lie.

[Epignosis]

Radishes sir, why thunderdome, why not lynch Elephant who is scum?

Because a lynchpool of 3 is a decent one. Elephant is one of 6? players who existed through the same level and voted out several townies, which leaves more room for error that he might be misguided town. Not saying definitively that's what I believe, but odds are better amongst 3.

what lynchpool? Tell me please the players.

Eva/Sprit/Radishes

We were in an F3 'limbo' together and we all agree one of us must be scum because otherwise it made no sense.

I don't agree with this. All three of you are alive. The votes you all made were therefore not for a lynch.

Epi, please do not resort to "the final 3 was fake." That's disrespectful to all of us who were there as well as the moderators. We played our hearts out for two days trying to figure out the scum, and I'm not prepared to accept that Sloonei and JJJ would be such utter bastard moderators as to make it all a lie.

You're still alive. All three of you. Whatever you went through was not a lynch.

You can believe what you want.

[Michelle]

I can't make much sense of Michelle's D0/D1 ISO, but I found these two gems.

kill Michelle she's not Towny

yeah i'd expect to have a townread on michelle at this point if she were a villa

[VOTE: michelle] aubergine

wait you voted me before reading my Iso? -_-

i guess michelle is posting more than i know of her scum meta but uhh

no townread still

defaults to a wolfread

omgus suits you

I'd vote Radishes over Sprityo and Evenstar right now, but it's still earlay in the day.

what to do with this gem? What do you see here?

[Michelle]

Civilians are going to lose because the subject that should be the main focus of discussion is being overlooked.

Dragomir is dead. He was mafia.

Who are his partners and why?

[Michelle]

Evenstar, take a moment and think at the game as a whole please

[Hyena]

gonna go check that to make sure it's not just hyena having a sick sense of humor

but yeah, that's atrocious.

I'm happy that you know I'd say yes either way. <3

Catching up right now. Going through from the beginning of day 2 and today simultaneously. All I will say is that I want the head of the people behind the Spiny lynch.

it is so fucking good to see you again. help me dunk radishes please.

So how the fuck did iaafr get lynched? In what world does that happen?

I have no clue what you're talking about but I very very much want to murder Hyena and Nutella right now.

I have no issues with a Hyena vote as of this spot in the thread. I called him scummy since D1.

[VOTE: Hyena] aubergine

Ur scum, bro.

112 - suspect.
Evenstar- suspect
Pawn - suspect

No way in hell I'm voting Hyena today.

Cool. I don't want to lynch you today either, but not because you don't want to lynch me. I figure that if we lynch you and you flip town, Eva will be able to find a good excuse to explain away everything and talk her way out of looking scummy for it. I haven't played with you before, so I dunno what you would do or how you'd try to play it off if we lynched Eva and she flipped town. :P

[Dom]

Maybe the vig doesn't give a shit about your POE

Trust me, the vig will solve my POE.

Are you claiming the vig when you didn't know one existed until today while also claiming the mason?

Civilians are going to lose because the subject that should be the main focus of discussion is being overlooked.

Dragomir is dead. He was mafia.

Who are his partners and why?

Eva.
Let's kick her out of this game.

[Evenstar]

Sprityo and radishes are irrelvant at this point. The vig will solve my PoE.

Since D3, I'm not so sure that we still have an active vigilante, but it's possible.

Thank you for your explanation!

We very likely still have an active vig. Look at the kill timings.

[Evenstar]

Maybe the vig doesn't give a shit about your POE

Trust me, the vig will solve my POE.

Are you claiming the vig when you didn't know one existed until today while also claiming the mason?

Civilians are going to lose because the subject that should be the main focus of discussion is being overlooked.

Dragomir is dead. He was mafia.

Who are his partners and why?

Eva.
Let's kick her out of this game.

I am not allowed to explictly not claim a role, but if that's what you got out of that, you are absolutely barking up the wrong tree.

[Epignosis]

I'm going to start with those I think are the easiest to work out.

Dom - I would wager money Dom is a civilian.

Master Radishes - As I've alluded to, the Root and I had an exchange Day 2 that helped us better understand each other, and right now I find myself largely agreeing with his positions. I like what I see, though I don't have the same confidence I do with Dom.

Michelle - Most of what I've seen from Michelle exudes a sense of genuineness that is difficult to fake for most. I wish Michelle (as with pretty much everyone) would examine suspects within the context of Day 1, since that is the most valuable Day the civilians have in the books, but I'm viewing Michelle as a civilian for now.

nutella - Anyone from here can tell you that nutella has been a perpetual blind spot for me for years. I feel that I'm turning a corner on that front. Alternatively, nutella always seems to have my number. I think the last couple of times I've been bad, she called it early and often. Maybe that's a fluke. Maybe it's a small sample size. I know she's correct about me again here, and I don't believe she's faking that.

These are four individuals (in order) that I believe are civilians.

[Evenstar]

Evenstar, take a moment and think at the game as a whole please

I am, that's why I'm focussing on Epi today.

[Hyena]

[VOTE: epignosis] aubergine

anyone who doesn't see this now should just trust me

Nah

And Evenstar, even if you are a civilian, you are derailing matters. I'm comfortable lynching you regardless.

How was it you put it?

Ah yes.

I need you...resolved.

tbqh i'm resigned to the stomp if this thread can't see scum as obvious as you, hyena and nutella

and yeah, I agree I do need resolved

dunno why you want me resolved before radishes and why you blew 'stop taking credit four times for the same post' into a serious lynch attempt, though

seriously, you will fucking know it if and when I decide you actually need to be lynched

That was tongue in cheek.

Nobody needs to be "resolved." That's lazy-talk.

My frustration with you is that you exuded a civilian confidence and then you went and lost your mind about me over the most inane reasons. I can't support you for that any longer.

No, people need to get resolved, or the game gets super-stale to me. It's not lazy-talk. It keeps the game moving.

[VOTE: 112] aubergine

If 112 is town I will literally shit my pants. I will shit inside my pants as I wear them.

Me too, really.

I will vote to ensure one of my suspects dies. No tie bullshit.

Ties are fun.

I am looking at that elephant vote on Nutella and it's giving me major neg vibes. How tf is that the best place for a vote right now?

With the knowledge that Elephant thinks there are scum in the group that stayed here D2 and that he wants to solve that group, is Nutella a better-looking vote? Who else from that group would you prefer Elephant to vote?

[Epignosis]

Hyena, what can you tell me about Pawn Lelouch? What is your opinion of this exchange?

Spoiler: show

I am at work, and unable to post much. I have meeting coming up soon (that includes a 50-slide Power Point about how to have a meeting ), but...

but i mean yeah your logics a bit weird

wouldnt keeping him alive to keep sussing the towncore sow suspicion on its own?

why would scum assume people would even remember nooks reads

Yes, but Nook was relatively low impact in the thread so he probably wouldn't make much progress and might even be convinced to change his mind. Better to go for the guarantee rather than a gamble.

Because it's good town play to look back at those who died to try and divine the intent as to why they died. Since there is always a discernible reason behind a scum nightkill. The trick is actually figuring it out. Plus remembering the reads of one of 14 other players is far easier than that of 29 other players. Especially since scum could potentially just point it out themselves in thread as a reason why Nook could have been a silencing kill. So there's a fair chance that town would easily remember the reads or scum would just state it themselves.

I'm basically assuming that Epi is scum based off this as I read into the kill more and more. If I'm right this is a kill that came at it from a methodical view, which fits my mental image of Epi's style and even is something he has stated in previous days.

...this is rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

First, the qualifiers indicate someone who knows what he is saying is rubbish. "Basically assuming" is equivocal language. "As I read into the kill more and more" is a vague way to make it sound as though this perspective bears credibility. It doesn't. This is an attempt to appear analytical. The little lecture that precedes the accusation rings hollow.

Second, Pawn, who knows nothing about me and has no prior experience with me, suggests that he can correctly peg me specifically as killing Nanook. Nonsense. In fact, if you remember, Nanook was among my top suspects coming into Day 2. From my perspective, the incessant posts begging for credit for lynching Dragomir looked too on the nose. If I were mafia, I would have been confident I could have gathered support for a Nanook lynch. No- Nanook would not have been in my top ten choices for a kill.

Third, the accusation is empty. Any victim could be a "methodical" choice for the Night kill. What makes the Nanook kill specifically a methodical choice (as opposed to, say, an Evenstar kill or a Pawn kill)? The accusation is based on multiple assumptions that don't even support it.

Fourth, the basis for this accusation against me is at present non-falsifiable. "If I'm right this is a kill that came at it from a methodical view" is nothing that can be proved or disproved until endgame.

This is rubbish.

Do you think these are Pawn's genuine opinions?

[Michelle]

Evenstar, take a moment and think at the game as a whole please

I am, that's why I'm focussing on Epi today.

What do you think about Elephant?
Also Dom is very scummy in my eyes since that dream level we were in. How do you see him?

[sprityo]

Civilians are going to lose because the subject that should be the main focus of discussion is being overlooked.

Dragomir is dead. He was mafia.

Who are his partners and why?

I see your point and I will look into it

I do want in return a look at what happened on Day 4

[Epignosis]

I remembered to look through Spiny Creature's posts to see what I can glean.

@Evenstar

so far you are an easy townread to me (actually the easiest), which makes me nervous only because I don't think you are easy to read in general. and in finals when you were town you were a townread, yes, but not an easy or pure one, just like a "I think eva is always like this and it's not scummy" one.

that said, the effortlessness of your savage-tone posting, and the fact that your conversation with Drogo, while meaningless shitposting, actually led you to have a read on him by the end, feels like v easytown to me.

should I be nervous about this read y or y not? :P

Yeah, you should be nervous. You're probably reading "not stressed out by champs" as "town" here: as Pawn would tell you, I'm never certain anything D1.

Keep watching me; generally I slip somewhere in my tapdancing by D3/4 if I'm scum. (Like in WC1 with my hotdogs thing.)

thanks for reply.

@PawnLelouch (hopefully that has no spaces, if it does i give up on tagging) not to repeat d1 of finals, but what's your read on Eva rn? I see that you are in more heat than she is but I am far from caught up and left before you showed up at all.

This exchange indicates that Spinyboo and Evenstar were not civilian partners, as once assumed after Day 2.

[Evenstar]

I remembered to look through Spiny Creature's posts to see what I can glean.

@Evenstar

so far you are an easy townread to me (actually the easiest), which makes me nervous only because I don't think you are easy to read in general. and in finals when you were town you were a townread, yes, but not an easy or pure one, just like a "I think eva is always like this and it's not scummy" one.

that said, the effortlessness of your savage-tone posting, and the fact that your conversation with Drogo, while meaningless shitposting, actually led you to have a read on him by the end, feels like v easytown to me.

should I be nervous about this read y or y not? :P

Yeah, you should be nervous. You're probably reading "not stressed out by champs" as "town" here: as Pawn would tell you, I'm never certain anything D1.

Keep watching me; generally I slip somewhere in my tapdancing by D3/4 if I'm scum. (Like in WC1 with my hotdogs thing.)

thanks for reply.

@PawnLelouch (hopefully that has no spaces, if it does i give up on tagging) not to repeat d1 of finals, but what's your read on Eva rn? I see that you are in more heat than she is but I am far from caught up and left before you showed up at all.

This exchange indicates that Spinyboo and Evenstar were not civilian partners, as once assumed after Day 2.

Have you ever considered that teams other than mafia might want to distance from each other so as not to be obvious?

[Hyena]

Spoiler: show

FLOOMP
Grenades rained down from the parking garage roof.
Projection-soldiers were blown from their boats and to the base of the spiral incline.
Some of them seemed confused in the fray, even getting in one another's way.
The mark doesn't seem to know they're dreaming. Good.
The distracted projections offer the right opportunity.
The car revs to life, and with squealing tires barrels straight over the edge.

Subconscious Phase 4 has ended.

vanity. was lynched. He was:

Spoiler: show

You are the subconscious aspect of love.

You represent the mark’s capacity for affection, dedication, and intimate interpersonal connection.

During any inception phase, you may select two players whom you must indicate as "A" and "B". Any action performed by player A will be directed to player B regardless of player A's intentions. You begin the game with 4 role points.

You will win the game if all threats to the subconscious mind are eliminated.

Spoiler: show

Inception Phase 4 begins now. You have 24 hours until 6:00 PM EST to get your actions to both hosts.

this is sad btw.

viewtopic.php?p=566869#p566869
the poll says he was lynched with 5 votes from
Elephant
Juliets
Hyena
Nutella
TL

There is at least one scum.

With Long Con in that group, there's at most two scum there. Benson and Creature were initially part of the group, too, but they got NK'd and flipped town. We lynched Spiny D2, who also flipped town, and we think a Vig shot DFar, who also flipped town. Knowing all this, do you really think it's bold to call that many of our group scum even ignoring the fact that you named everyone alive today except for Long Con? We had our reasons for lynching who did. Why don't you and the others take a look at them and evaluate us from there? :P

Also- I'm probably way behind everyone- but the eva/MR/Sprityo thing is important to solve.

I've played 100s of games with MR and do not like him here, honestly

Elephant got mislynched Vanity and you ignore him? Please let me know your oppinion on him.

It wasn't just Elephant. I was a major influence in that, and Nutella, too, to a much lesser degree. Everybody else kinda just followed or went against it.

Elephant, it might just be me but you seem a tad more... overwhelmed(???) today with everyone back? Like, I don't feel like you're trying to have as much influence over the thread as you did the past couple days, whereas nutella is still, like, consistently showing her presence here.

I feel as overwhelmed as I was on D0 and D1; please also consider that SoD is midnight for me. I was surprised myself to to see you un-vote and un-use your vote; I took that as a sign that you are somewhat disoriented as well, is that correct? The sane thing to do seems to be to finally find the scum we have been hunting for in our group, since everyone has access to our posts, but we can only see their D0/D1 work.

Right, I forgot SoD was midnight for you. I unvoted because I decided again that I wasn't going to cooperate with LLD since I don't really know much about the state of the game right now in terms of the ratio of town to mafia to 3P.

Anyway, 112 and Evenstar are the two people I want lynched. 112 to see if D1's wagons were v/w or w/w, and Evenstar just for stuff at EoD1.

Yup. Come at me.

I just said I wanted to hunt in our group. What would a 112 lynch really do for us? Whom would it help solve for you?

If she flips scum, the people on the Dragomir wagon have less town cred than people think. If she flips town, those people have more town cred. Plus, I think she's scum. I'm up for trying to going after someone from in our group. I just need people to see that we had reasons for thinking Vanity was scum rather than blanket calling us scummy for doing it.

I wonder if mafia had access to all the game threads. If that's the case, they could have seen the people here D2 having doubts about Evenstar and 112 and started pushing those two in preparation for when we all joined back up here.

Didn't you see Epignosis reading here?

I didn't see it when it happened, but I remember nutella and others talking about it.

this is sad btw.

viewtopic.php?p=566869#p566869
the poll says he was lynched with 5 votes from
Elephant
Juliets
Hyena
Nutella
TL

There is at least one scum.

Agreed. Vanity was so pure and whilst I haven't re-read this yet I can't imagine there are not scum here.

It's a bunch of people I'm about too, so I don't have anyone I won't consider here.

[Evenstar]

Evenstar, take a moment and think at the game as a whole please

I am, that's why I'm focussing on Epi today.

What do you think about Elephant?
Also Dom is very scummy in my eyes since that dream level we were in. How do you see him?

Dom can't be scum. Not Radishes' partner, not Sprityo's partner, most importantly not Epignosis but ended in the same level as him.

I haven't played with Elephant for six days and haven't caught up on backlog, but from his interactions today he seems to be making a real effort to solve. Likely town.