Inception [END]

[Epignosis]

Quick post:

Epi, I know it's long, but have you read over my reasons for scumreading Eva? I think it was top of pg 117.

I just find your reasons for TRing her to not be anything very outside her scum range. You've not convinced me I'm wrong about her.

It's in another tab.

That apparently I closed.

I'll look at it.

[Dom]

Epi-- I really don't get what you're trying to say.

Where?

I don't get why you suddenly don't suspect eva.

[nutella]

Sprityo's Evenstar compilaton is very much her style, and my eyes soon glazed over, but first I saw this line:

3: Honestly, given that Pawn missed the same thing I did regarding the doublevoter, I think you're overestimating how obvious the flaw was.

What was your doublevoter deal? Can anyone tell me more about that?

Oh, yeah. We figure Iaafr is the doublevoter since he pushed Drago but ended up not voting at EoD1.

...what? how does this make sense

[nutella]

I'm caught up and am voting [VOTE: Eva] aubergine

what do you think about Elephant?

I see someone playing illogically.

Not sure if it's bad, or just illogical.

Could you please point out to me where I've been illogical?

You're voting for Michelle right now, that's a start.

Ok. I like to use my vote at this stage to indicate where my mind is at, and perhaps to get reactions. I haven't been able to put a complete case together, because I am still (!) catching up, but I don't think Michelle has a solving attitude towards me at all, and I scumread that.

I think she's just town who has misunderstood a lot of your replies and part of that is probably just language barrier and part of it is she hasn't had time to look through your whole iso. I don't like that she's so confident on you when she has a flawed and incomplete understanding of you, but I think she's probably just town

[Epignosis]

Epi-- I really don't get what you're trying to say.

Where?

I don't get why you suddenly don't suspect eva.

1. Evenstar's engagement with Dragomir looked antagonistic and did not appear staged. If you disagree with that assessment, fine. I know a lot has happened since then, but those interactions still exist.

2. Rather than try to cooperate with me after I gave her a shining badge of civilian, she crapped on my work (without even engaging it, which is a bad move, but oh well). She could have used that credibility to her advantage to "work with me" into casting votes against my win condition. This didn't happen.

3. If the impression in the thread was ever that Evenstar was claiming to be Spinyboo's partner, the real Spinyboo's partner would be hopping all over this and demanding Evenstar's head. I think that much is plain. The reaction I drew from Evenstar when I said I didn't think she had BTSC with Spinyboo was an incredulous jab at my intelligence. I don't think she makes that particular post if she's mafia.

4. I'm still alive.

[Epignosis]

Sprityo's Evenstar compilaton is very much her style, and my eyes soon glazed over, but first I saw this line:

3: Honestly, given that Pawn missed the same thing I did regarding the doublevoter, I think you're overestimating how obvious the flaw was.

What was your doublevoter deal? Can anyone tell me more about that?

Oh, yeah. We figure Iaafr is the doublevoter since he pushed Drago but ended up not voting at EoD1.

...what? how does this make sense

It doesn't. It never did. It wouldn't die.

[Master Radishes]

Only a few pages in to my re-read of what I missed. Man, how I wish I had been in this group. No one in my level wanted to discuss EoD vote analysis with me.

Also, I miss Benson already.

[sprityo]

Sprityo's Evenstar compilaton is very much her style, and my eyes soon glazed over, but first I saw this line:

3: Honestly, given that Pawn missed the same thing I did regarding the doublevoter, I think you're overestimating how obvious the flaw was.

What was your doublevoter deal? Can anyone tell me more about that?

Oh, yeah. We figure Iaafr is the doublevoter since he pushed Drago but ended up not voting at EoD1.

...what? how does this make sense

ya, i already addressed day 3 why it didnt make sense for iaafr to be the doublevoter

[Epignosis]

Radishes, if you are convinced Evenstar should be lynched, why is your vote not on her?

[sprityo]

Only a few pages in to my re-read of what I missed. Man, how I wish I had been in this group. No one in my level wanted to discuss EoD vote analysis with me.

Also, I miss Benson already.

more so I didn't have the list. And discussing votes was already a pain, AND there was apparently bigger issues at hand.

Re: see my pretty vote color chart on the last page

[nutella]

Morning Juliets ^^
Nutella told me you have a TR on Dom and she trusts you. While we were in the dream thread I had nothing to do but think at the sorrounding players. We were few and Dom sticked out as scummy like a sore thumb.
What gives you your TR on him?

Good morning Michelle, it's not Dom I town read. I can't even remember what he posted day 1 and haven't been with him since. Right now I'm not claiming to have a TR on anyone in my group as I want to re-evaluate everyone (I think I stated this earlier) no matter how strong my town read was in the past days.

@nutella you said Juliets TRs Dom? I think you have old news

Literally no idea what you're talking about. I think you must have misread something somewhere. I've only talked about juliets in connection to elephant.

[Master Radishes]

Radishes, if you are convinced Evenstar should be lynched, why is your vote not on her?

Dunno.

[nutella]

Sprityo and radishes are irrelvant at this point. The vig will solve my PoE.

Since D3, I'm not so sure that we still have an active vigilante, but it's possible.

Thank you for your explanation!

We very likely still have an active vig. Look at the kill timings.

What he means is that since we didn't have a vig kill since n2 we think they ran out of role points. I have no idea how the role points work so maybe they have some by now?

[Master Radishes]

[Catch up]

Geez. Elephant's push on vanity is bad. Talk about constructing a narrative.

[Epignosis]

Quick post:

Epi, I know it's long, but have you read over my reasons for scumreading Eva? I think it was top of pg 117.

I just find your reasons for TRing her to not be anything very outside her scum range. You've not convinced me I'm wrong about her.

Ah, I did read that. I even commented on it last night.

What I had in another tab was the thing where you were responding in blue.

In a vacuum what you say shows a very suspicious Evenstar. However, in the context of Inception Mafia, I think there are strong points in Evenstar's favor (which I've already given and you've declared insufficient).

I think the biggest thing for me is the answer to this question: Was Evenstar distancing from Dragomir Day 1 and what particular posts make you think that?

[Epignosis]

Looking at the poll, it doesn't look like there was ever a concerted effort to save Dragomir at all. If there was one, it was that sudden surge against me, not the votes on 112. If I'm correct about Evenstar, the only two unknowns (from my perspective, obviously) are Elephant and JackofHearts2005.

[Epignosis]

Another observation:

TonyStarkPrime - Eliminated on Inc. Phase 1 - Subconscious aspect of sympathy (vanilla)
Texas Cloverleaf - Eliminated on Inc. Phase 1 - ???

Given the ??? by Texas Cloverleaf, I think it is correct to assume that TC was the mafia kill, confirming the presence of a janitor, and that TSP was the vigilante kill.

If I'm right, my next task is looking through TexasCloverleaf's posts for anything noteworthy.

[Trustworthy Liberal]

And if you want a fourth, I think my reasoning here applies to a mafia Evenstar as well.

Eva is currently claiming vig.

I believe if that were the case, I wouldn't be alive right now.

oh boy I have some fun pages left to read

if eva is claiming vig she's definitely lying because the vig was almost 100% in my original thread group based on the df kill

She feigned surprise at there being a vig earlier bc in day two she referenced one.

She also says that the vig will definitely resovle her f3 problem or whatever.

For what it's worth, I didn't read that as a claim.

As Nutella said it's of high dought that Eva could be the vig as I believe they have to be on our level based I the prosumed second Big shot. Also no prosumed vig shot for two nights unless they were double roleblocked which I highly unlikely.

So if this was a soft claim your 100% wrong but not the worst idea if the Vig can still shot to resolve their three but don't think they can.

[Master Radishes]

Quick post:

Epi, I know it's long, but have you read over my reasons for scumreading Eva? I think it was top of pg 117.

I just find your reasons for TRing her to not be anything very outside her scum range. You've not convinced me I'm wrong about her.

Ah, I did read that. I even commented on it last night.

What I had in another tab was the thing where you were responding in blue.

In a vacuum what you say shows a very suspicious Evenstar. However, in the context of Inception Mafia, I think there are strong points in Evenstar's favor (which I've already given and you've declared insufficient).

I think the biggest thing for me is the answer to this question: Was Evenstar distancing from Dragomir Day 1 and what particular posts make you think that?

Okay, I think we're still on the same page, I'm just putting heavier weight on her macro-level play or whatever.

I'll need to re-read the interaction. (I did read it when you re-posted during D2, but I forget.) My impression is that I don't see why it can't be your standard wolf distancing though.

[Trustworthy Liberal]

Another observation:

TonyStarkPrime - Eliminated on Inc. Phase 1 - Subconscious aspect of sympathy (vanilla)
Texas Cloverleaf - Eliminated on Inc. Phase 1 - ???

Given the ??? by Texas Cloverleaf, I think it is correct to assume that TC was the mafia kill, confirming the presence of a janitor, and that TSP was the vigilante kill.

If I'm right, my next task is looking through TexasCloverleaf's posts for anything noteworthy.

That is the conclusion we came to unless we have a neutral killing around which if so the Vig really needs to make some noise. (99% sure Texas and DF where Vig shots though)

[juliets]

Another observation:

TonyStarkPrime - Eliminated on Inc. Phase 1 - Subconscious aspect of sympathy (vanilla)
Texas Cloverleaf - Eliminated on Inc. Phase 1 - ???

Given the ??? by Texas Cloverleaf, I think it is correct to assume that TC was the mafia kill, confirming the presence of a janitor, and that TSP was the vigilante kill.

If I'm right, my next task is looking through TexasCloverleaf's posts for anything noteworthy.

Yes that's what we assumed too, especially since TSP was suspect during that lynch. I can't remember without looking back at the poll but I think he was a counter wagon.

[Master Radishes]

I think I'm about 40% through my read. Taking a break.

[Epignosis]

iaafr is town because spewing tone everywhere
Mac is town because Mac
112 is town because reasons

Eva is scum because she went out of her way to manufacture a negative read on me based on things which had not actually occurred

stab eva

[Epignosis]

Quick post:

Epi, I know it's long, but have you read over my reasons for scumreading Eva? I think it was top of pg 117.

I just find your reasons for TRing her to not be anything very outside her scum range. You've not convinced me I'm wrong about her.

Ah, I did read that. I even commented on it last night.

What I had in another tab was the thing where you were responding in blue.

In a vacuum what you say shows a very suspicious Evenstar. However, in the context of Inception Mafia, I think there are strong points in Evenstar's favor (which I've already given and you've declared insufficient).

I think the biggest thing for me is the answer to this question: Was Evenstar distancing from Dragomir Day 1 and what particular posts make you think that?

Okay, I think we're still on the same page, I'm just putting heavier weight on her macro-level play or whatever.

I'll need to re-read the interaction. (I did read it when you re-posted during D2, but I forget.) My impression is that I don't see why it can't be your standard wolf distancing though.

With your godfather though? That's not a gamble I would take, personally.

However, I do recall Evenstar losing it over the utility of having a godfather in a no-claiming setup, so...

[Epignosis]

I'm gonna say this interaction is not killing my Texas nook w w idea though I don't want either killed today regardless

Did you miss the part where you created this w/w idea based on me saying I mindmelded with Mac

yes

but now im just gonna run with it even though youve proved the premise false

just call me iba

hahahahaha kill me now

[Epignosis]

Yeah, I didn't get anything out of that exercise.

[Lady LambdaDelta]

Dom can be town

Epi can be weird

but all players who vote for Nutella can get a once in a lifetime free pass for one day.h

[Lady LambdaDelta]

Evenstar
4
24%
Voters: Dom, nutella, Jackofhearts2005, Epignosis

This is a bad wagon. At minimum 1 scum on this wagon even is ES is scum.

Of course if ES is scum, likely 2 scum in 112/ES/Pawn on the Epi wagon.

[Lady LambdaDelta]

is Nutella/ES/112/Juliets feasable....

I just don't knwo enough to world build that kind of nonsense and feel comfortable with it.

and I honestly dont think Eva is scum here with the caveat that her play doesn't strike me particularly town either.

But still, it's worth considering from wagon perspective that something like that kind of has to happen. Especially with Juliet off wagon rn.

[Lady LambdaDelta]

@MacDougall, @Lady LambdaDelta, @Quin, @Michelle, @112
Your group mislynched novaseline on day 2. Who was responsible for that?

Not me I didn't even vote that day, I haven't voted since day 1, well until now.[VOTE: Nutella] aubergine

[Evenstar]

Eva made this post on day 2

okay, so

rainbow lists are not allowed

but I think the following is in the spirit: I

Negative side of neutral:
Dom
Radishes
112
Nova
Colin/rej
Quin
Jack
Michelle

Positive side of neutral:
Evenstar
Macdougall
Pawn Lelouch
Lady Lambdadelta
Iaafr
Epignosis
Sprityo
Nanook

names not in any particular order, exactly 8 in each category even though it took some massaging

I don't understand what happened to her reads. Nothing organic.

I wanna know what @Quin thinks about all this?

he's pretty tired and regretful of not keeping up but unashamedly thinks he'll do better once more of you are dead

but not you mac, you should live

quin pushed tsp in a not aligned way imo so I have him clear assuming tsp scum

this post is really interesting

also I did a quick iso of quin because people reminded me they exist

yeah, this can die

ideally vig it though

Eva is currently claiming vig.
Yet here she is doing the same on day 2, but nothing happened, as far as I'm aware.

*rubs her face*

Dom, it is blatantly impossible for me to be the vig unless I somehow blind-shot across four levels of dream distance. Do you really think I am that dumb?

[nutella]

I remembered to look through Spiny Creature's posts to see what I can glean.

@Evenstar

so far you are an easy townread to me (actually the easiest), which makes me nervous only because I don't think you are easy to read in general. and in finals when you were town you were a townread, yes, but not an easy or pure one, just like a "I think eva is always like this and it's not scummy" one.

that said, the effortlessness of your savage-tone posting, and the fact that your conversation with Drogo, while meaningless shitposting, actually led you to have a read on him by the end, feels like v easytown to me.

should I be nervous about this read y or y not? :P

Yeah, you should be nervous. You're probably reading "not stressed out by champs" as "town" here: as Pawn would tell you, I'm never certain anything D1.

Keep watching me; generally I slip somewhere in my tapdancing by D3/4 if I'm scum. (Like in WC1 with my hotdogs thing.)

thanks for reply.

@PawnLelouch (hopefully that has no spaces, if it does i give up on tagging) not to repeat d1 of finals, but what's your read on Eva rn? I see that you are in more heat than she is but I am far from caught up and left before you showed up at all.

This exchange indicates that Spinyboo and Evenstar were not civilian partners, as once assumed after Day 2.

....I have had a thought. Janitors get the flips of their kills right? What if Texas was spinyboo's mason??

Lynch evenstar yall.

[nutella]

Dom, nutella, and Jack:

When next you get the chance, would you take a look at the brief analysis I made regarding Evenstar and Dragomir from Day 1?

The link is here.

How does that color your perception of Evenstar?

I have read it. I disagree with your conclusion.

[nutella]

Like, she had that "double-barreled FoS" on him before daystart but her vote did not end on him so I don't care. They can be partners.

[Pawn Lelouch]

....I have had a thought. Janitors get the flips of their kills right? What if Texas was spinyboo's mason??

Lynch evenstar yall.

No. They hard remove the info, even from their eyes.

[nutella]

It's certainly within Eva's scum range to push suspicion of a bad-looking partner in order to look good after the flip, and I could believe that when it became clear it wasn't a runaway and she could hop on the 112 wagon to potentially keep her teammate around another day, she did.

[Master Radishes]

Right. So read what I said again. You're mischaracterising it. I speculated on there being something to gain from limbo, but did not state there was a prize I knew about beforehand. I scumread Eva for many reasons prior to the vote, not because I was lynched/her last minute vote.

"something to gain" is the deifnition for "prize", that's just semantics.
I read your quote as if Evenstar "leaping on" was your strongest point against her; I apologize for misreading that.

Key word I meant was that I was 'speculating' whilst you made it sound like I definitely knew.

[nutella]

....I have had a thought. Janitors get the flips of their kills right? What if Texas was spinyboo's mason??

Lynch evenstar yall.

No. They hard remove the info, even from their eyes.

The mafia universe wiki says otherwise. I can ask the hosts privately.

[Evenstar]

Ok thanks Dom.

So Evenstar, if that's the case, why do you think scum got to choose?

If it's random that would risk the scum player at F3 being their weakest/most inactive teammate, thereby making the game incredibly swingy for no reason, assuming that there was actually a reason for scum to want to win any of the sublayer games.

If scum don't need to try to win the sublayer games, we are just straight up not playing mafia anymore.

[Master Radishes]

@Master Radishes when you come back please reconsider that hidden and tricky mecanics may exists and your base to consider one of you 3 scum including you is alike Vanity not self pressing at Eod.
This is not pro town play. At least not for me.
I am not a player to say nice words and I am not a good enough english speaker to be at a higher level but I am not an idiot and at logical level I am usually right. Please reconsider and vote the scummiest player, not from my top town reads ofc

If you're implying that one of Sprit/Eva/me is not scum because of 'tricky mechanics' you're wrong. If it turns out all three of us as town that is when I start calling this a bastard setup.

[nutella]

....I have had a thought. Janitors get the flips of their kills right? What if Texas was spinyboo's mason??

Lynch evenstar yall.

No. They hard remove the info, even from their eyes.

The mafia universe wiki says otherwise. I can ask the hosts privately.

And even if you're right, they also have a role cop and I could easily believe that they would choose to use the janitor and the role cop on the same target if the janitor doesn't get the flip otherwise.

[Master Radishes]

@Evenstar @Master Radishes feel free to quote all my relevant content as you see fit

You're a star. Thanks for digging all that up.

Like, no one else is going to read it, because they're lazy (except juliets) but I appreciate it nonetheless.

[Master Radishes]

So you guys didn't get a lynch result on that level?

Nope, All that happened was Master Radishes was lynched. That's all the Host posted aside from the flavor

How did you three all get all they way down there? Did you make decisions on your movement? I'm a nondreaming kind of dude here, why wasn't I invited?

Ask our hosts. As far as I'm aware it was random (or, rather, pre-determined based on role cards) but it's definitely possible the scum got to choose who to send 'deeper'.

[nutella]

Yeah janitor just wouldn't make sense the way you're describing. They have to get the flip. Mafia wouldn't use it otherwise. They don't like not having info on what town roles are around.

[Master Radishes]

*cracks knuckles*

Back to reading up.

This sure is how I love to spend my weekends...

[nutella]

SO that leaves me to these questions

Why are nutella and juliets town together?
What is the case on 112?
What is up with Michelle and Elephant?
Who am I wrong about from TS?

- I just have reason to believe juliets is town. Nothing to do with me specifically. But supposedly if she is to be trusted, Elephant is town as well. I am still not 100% sold on that but taking her word for it for now.
- idk there are a few things, currently (from stuff she said last night mostly) I think she's just town
- eh they misread each other a bunch
- Jack is scum (plus I'm not 100% sold on Mac and LC but leaning town)

[nutella]

The Eva you show there looks like a different player entirely. She flips on a dime the very next day on pretty much everything you observe.
Why?

My assessment of Day 1 had Evenstar in the upper echelon of civilianhood.

She has repeatedly taken a dump on my efforts, and went so far as to accuse me.

That's a really suboptimal play if you are mafia, is what I'm getting at.

Apparently not, if it has fooled you.

[Pawn Lelouch]

Yeah janitor just wouldn't make sense the way you're describing. They have to get the flip. Mafia wouldn't use it otherwise. They don't like not having info on what town roles are around.

And I disagree on principle since mafia care far more about keeping an information deficit and can oftentimes use it on themselves. That way they block any info from leaking out with a member's death and prevent as many flip associatives or block a townie flip.

Since mafia starts with more info, mafia and town getting the same amount of info from a normal flip (rather than effectively 0 from a janitor'd flip) is good for town since it lowers the proportional information gap. It is absolutely a strong role without role info being given, and in fact would become the only role I think is too powerful for mafia to have if they had a rolecop's power incorporated in.

And that's coming from me where I am a massive bus driver proponent and have made stronger versions of framers to make them long term useful for information control.

[juliets]

@Evenstar @Master Radishes feel free to quote all my relevant content as you see fit

You're a star. Thanks for digging all that up.

Like, no one else is going to read it, because they're lazy (except juliets) but I appreciate it nonetheless.

You're pretty funny Master Radishes.

I actually did read sprit's first post full of content and I will read the second a little later today.

I will be in and out for the next few hours but my attention will not be 100% here until tonight sometime.

[Evenstar]

Radishes, if you are convinced Evenstar should be lynched, why is your vote not on her?

Dunno.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
This is never, ever town. Kill it with extreme prejudice. I don't want it lynched, but I want it dead.