Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Alison]

Oy actually... Hally, Wisp and LC have all voted elsewhere.... and I trust them the most atm.

I’m not ready to vote Jay at this point.

I’m going to follow Hally and Wisp instead.

[VOTE: Wilgy] aubergine

It is game theoretically incorrect to vote Wilgy; he is extremely likely to be modkilled anyway.

Please redirect your vote to Pawn.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy could be modkilled. He could be replaced. He may not even send a night action.

Kill Pawn.

[Alison]

[mention]Spacedaisy[/mention] [mention]Epignosis[/mention] [mention]Hally[/mention] [mention]Wisp[/mention]

Stop voting someone who's going to be modkilled and actually use the town KP to sort

[Epignosis]

Incidentally I think Epignosis would tell you something similar but I don’t know if that’s relevant.

That's why I responded as I did to Epi's vouch for Pawn. It was drawn into a stencil shaped like my precise expectations of how Epignosis handles his mafia teammates.

How cute. You think they are stencils.

I have the baddest ass collection of Spirographs.

[Epignosis]

Wilgy could be modkilled. He could be replaced. He may not even send a night action.

Kill Pawn.

No.

[Alison]

Wilgy could be modkilled. He could be replaced. He may not even send a night action.

Kill Pawn.

No.

Why?

[Alison]

No fucking way you townread Pawn so strongly off that post you'd rather execute a dead player than flip Pawn

[Epignosis]

i was incidentally just about to ask

is epi a busser? or does he prefer to keep his team alive if at all possible?

more specifically, is this how w!epi would play in this game state with colin and pawn as teammates knowing they’re surely not going to last?

because its certainly not what i would do, but im not epi

I am not. Did it before on purpose to see how it felt but I prefer efficiency. I only do it if my hand is forced.

[Epignosis]

Wilgy could be modkilled. He could be replaced. He may not even send a night action.

Kill Pawn.

No.

Why?

I don't let people tell me what to do.

[ColinIsCool]

pawn iso:

Spoiler: show

I will note that 1 wolf in that duo seems more likely than both fmpov. That dynamic shown from the quote lists from Jay seems too blatant and forced for a pair of wolves to feel like its a good idea. Tying themselves together like that will inevitably lead to both falling toogether eventually. There's too much attention on them, it just is never worth it.

this is a safe take. we know lc is town so there was only at most one wolf in lc/fg. and thats what pawn says here too. cool. this is a case of sounding reasonable without saying a whole lot that moves the game forward or means anything

caveat that this was his first post and he’d just rep’d in, so maybe this was the first thing he saw that he felt he could comment on readily. okay. i cant hold that against him

I’m not anticipating a single cop existing in this game tbh

I’m pretty annoyed we didn’t get those extra 10 minutes I was planning a “naw we’re just killing LC” swing back, and now we have no flip at all. Not great.

Actually it is a good thing. And that's kind of uncalled for and suspicious. Why add chaos intentionally to the end of the day? How is that even remotely town?

Directed chaos forces urgency. Urgency means people have less time to plan posts, so anything they say usually has higher odds of being more genuine than most other posts, even as town, since there is still going to be less of the normal proofreading, sentence structure work, etc. If you want to get honesty out of players and force people to take sides? It's a good way to do it and fits perfectly well as a town play, especially if onto someone that is a suspect.

Even accounting for your viewpoint being biased by not wanting to go down, I don't get how and why you're unable to see any sort of town intention within the play. It's off to say the least considering that its obvious.

Also hey Wisp, it'll be fun to finally play a game with you. ^_^

this is another post that contains no meaningful solving. its simply a post about mafia theory

same caveat as above though

Alison has moved *slightly* down for me tbh

why?

She hates angleshooting and what we were doing was fairly close to it

And you believe that hate is inherently alignment based? Meaning she wouldn't do it as town but would as mafia or 3P?

this is a question

Someone tell me if that vote from Epi is the kind of stupid shit he would push as town?

The grammar/word placement stuff? Yeah, I remember that from Epi a lot during Inception. Its NAI as far as I know.

And so its looking like Hally/Wisp are lock cleared based off of how they've acted regarding their claims and powers. LC is like 90% cleared off it, the only reason I'm not making it a guarantee is that mechanics seem to be fucky on that front considering the amount of claimed millers. Still, basically never hit this.

SD is like 85% town. Just because what is the point? Why does she make that claim as mafia, its just a potential anchor dragging her down long term. She has a baseline competence from what I've seen, so I just don't see what's the point. What mindset or perspective makes this worthwhile as mafia?

So functionally 4 clears. Its a damn good position for us to start D2 in.

this is a summary of the claim fiasco at SoD2, but ultimately adds nothing new or meaningful to the discussion

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

this is a reads list. fairly consensus but so are many others’ in this game

@Pawn Lelouch where are your reads at now?

Rougher than I'd like, I need to get to the point where I can feel comfortable figuring out where I lean on my 3 nulls for now. Otherwise, I feel solid overall on this grouping.

Town:
Hally
Wisp
Spacedaisy
Longcon

Town Lean:
Jay
Epi

Null:
sabie
kitsu
TSP

Scum Lean:
Alison
Drwilgy
Colin

Scum: N/A currently

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

i asked him why alison is so low and this is the response

i maintain that this post is simply an amalgamation of the reasons people have suspected alison at various points in the game. these are, i think, very easy and surface level things to suspect someone for

maybe pawn believes/agrees with the reasons and genuinely finds alison scummy. but i cant say this post actually gives me confidence in that

why is alison so low?

Combo of trying to lightly push against the SD clear, heavily pushing for pre flip associations earlier which is usually an easy wolf tactic to get credit or try and setup auto yeet chains, and while her point about Epi recently is a good one and mitigates my last point somewhat, I just don't like how she handled Epi's slot. It felt like she was trying to solve him and more that she was trying to shade with hypotheticals rather than anything concrete.

Overall, its more than enough to bump her to scum lean for me.

well lc is town so alison couldnt have been trying to chain jay to him post flip by pushing them as w/w

does this change anything for you?

If that was the only one she did then yeah, it does end up pushing her back up to null again. The SD bit is a point against her but not enough for a full drop, considering the Epi bit is mitigated recently.

But I could have sworn she had done it to more than just that pair? Am I misremembering there?

we continue our exchange about his alison read. there is perhaps some hedging here

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

okay

she sorta did it with me/fg but less so?

Ughhhhhh. The lack of flip info with fg makes that far more ambiguous than I like.

i kinda doubt she is w/w with fg anyway just from their interactions? so that probably wasnt a case of her chaining me to a teammate either

Okay, you've read more than I have and have the real time interactions that flow differently. I'll take your word on that interaction grouping since I've got too much of a headache to deep dive right now.

okay

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

this is a very weird post

pawn was not around at the time and i made a long post that contained that one line that pawn singles out and quotes. he excuses his lack of activity and apologizes for it

its just... kinda weird to me. why does v!pawn feel like he should single this out and defend himself here? why is this where his focus goes when he pops into the thread as opposed to like, contributing to the broader discussion about the game state that my post was a part of?

there was an actual, real discussion going on at the time that v!pawn could have contributed to. or he could have jumped in to comment on literally anything else that he found meaningful and where his insight might help us

instead he excuses his inactivity and then leaves again

if people dont post themselves clear i cant clear them

I would but I'm doing a lot of jury work plus law school prep and searching. Which is not at all AI, more just me apologizing for the relative dearth of posts and info.

no worries, i get people can be busy

question though: i feel like its now a couple of times where you pop in to respond to a very recent post

are you watching the thread and not commenting?

More that when I start feeling burned out on writing I pop over to this tab to do catchup and reset on that front a bit.

Where I feel I need to give some show that I'm alive despite not really wanting to write long posts. So it's more that I'm commenting only when I'm reading the thread? If that makes sense.

i question him about the above post and heres his answer. then he goes away

so that’s it. that’s all of pawn’s game related posts so far

i dont want this to be too harsh. i get pawn is busy and i appreciate him being willing to sub in here for us

my issue with him is not simply his lack of posts. its what he dedicates those posts to. its where he comments and where he doesnt. what he chooses to use his limited posts on feels... less than optimal. and the substance of those comments in terms of real, genuine game solving is, to me, either lacking or nonexistent. theres no spark

so thats why im most suspicious of pawn out of the three inactives

i should probably go back over sprityo’s posts too to be more comprehensive but i remember them being... less than great too

This is a good ISO.

What's good about it?

I think it points out how Pawn’s behavior is calculated and/or kinda scummy

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy could be modkilled. He could be replaced. He may not even send a night action.

Kill Pawn.

No.

I think you’re well aware that Wilgy is not the right choice right now.

[Epignosis]

JJJ asked me specifically about Pawn, but nobody up in here is engaging with me about the specifics of what I had to say. Instead all damn day it's been "Epi must be Pawn's teammate."

If it's Pawn's head you want, have Pawn's head.

But I'll vote where I goddamn please.

[Alison]

Nobody is asking you to blindly sheep Jay, there are actual compelling logical reasons as to why Wilgy is not a good execute compared to Pawn

[ColinIsCool]

I gotta say I’m not drunk anymore but I don’t follow the discussion of Epignosis at all.

What am I saying that you aren't understanding?

It was the discussion about you [being scum], not anything you said.

[Millium]

[VOTE: Pawn] aubergine

[Alison]

[VOTE: Pawn] aubergine

thanks

[sabie12]

JJJ asked me specifically about Pawn, but nobody up in here is engaging with me about the specifics of what I had to say. Instead all damn day it's been "Epi must be Pawn's teammate."

If it's Pawn's head you want, have Pawn's head.

But I'll vote where I goddamn please.

If it's any consolation I did not think that. I'm curious as to why you feel wilgy is the better choice over pawn.

[Epignosis]

I gotta say I’m not drunk anymore but I don’t follow the discussion of Epignosis at all.

What am I saying that you aren't understanding?

It was the discussion about you [being scum], not anything you said.

Ah. Then I apologize for misunderstanding you.

[Millium]

JJJ asked me specifically about Pawn, but nobody up in here is engaging with me about the specifics of what I had to say. Instead all damn day it's been "Epi must be Pawn's teammate."

If it's Pawn's head you want, have Pawn's head.

But I'll vote where I goddamn please.

If it's any consolation I did not think that. I'm curious as to why you feel wilgy is the better choice over pawn.

^^^

[Hally]

My concern with Epignosis more broadly: if we're suggesting Pawn is a civilian and Colin is a civilian, then given the state of the game and Epi's own reads: we're solved. The team must necessarily be: DrWilgy, Alison, TonyStarkPrime.

If the team is anything else, Epignosis has left himself no space to figure it out. There's nobody left. That could be a great idea if it's motivated by well-reasoned reads.

Epi's civilian view of Pawn doesn't strike me that way. "Colin has shown more effort" is a read I'd expect Epignosis to complain about if he saw someone else make it.

ig my concern with this is, if epi is mafia, unless he’s mafia with exactly pawn and colin he’s... really boxed himself in? as in, if pawn and colin are town those are mislims w!epi simply needs to get in this game state. if theyre wolves together, well... okay

but ig w!epi could also think it doesnt matter since the rest of us are gonna yeet pawn and colin anyway and then if theyre town he can be like “see i told ya!”

but like, if colin and pawn are town, who would epi’s team even be? he doesnt seem to be with tony or alison? so if hes wolfing i think it would have to be like exactly with some combo of pawn/colin/wilgy?

What is "ig?"

i guess

[Hally]

I’m really sorry guys. I was out sick from work, yesterday was my first day back after like ten days. So I was so tired by the time I got home I didn’t have the energy to do much beyond read. Today I woke up with a crazy headache I haven’t been able to shake. I’ve been keeping up until today so I’ve got like four pages left to catch up on. I see the majority are voting Pawn. I get the basic POE reasoning. Also I trust the town core atm. So I’m putting my vote there as well.

[VOTE: Pawn] aubergine

Now to catch up.

sorry you arent feeling well!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JJJ asked me specifically about Pawn, but nobody up in here is engaging with me about the specifics of what I had to say. Instead all damn day it's been "Epi must be Pawn's teammate."

If it's Pawn's head you want, have Pawn's head.

But I'll vote where I goddamn please.

"The specifics of what you had to say"

There were no specifics. You said this:

That looks honest as shit.

That looks dishonest as shit.

[Millium]

Every day of work is painful for me

[Alison]

Hally do you understand the reasons I have for voting pawn over wilgy?

[Hally]

@Spacedaisy @Epignosis @Hally @Wisp

Stop voting someone who's going to be modkilled and actually use the town KP to sort

what makes you think i have any intention of staying?

[Alison]

@Spacedaisy @Epignosis @Hally @Wisp

Stop voting someone who's going to be modkilled and actually use the town KP to sort

what makes you think i have any intention of staying?

Why vote if you aren't going to stay?

[Millium]

@Spacedaisy @Epignosis @Hally @Wisp

Stop voting someone who's going to be modkilled and actually use the town KP to sort

what makes you think i have any intention of staying?

well this is a response?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I looked through Pawn's posts. I'd let him alone.

There's adamancy there, there's interest, there's quick but understandable progression.

You highlighted a post in which Pawn voiced suspicion of Alison. I searched Pawn's posts for "Alison" and found next to nothing, so that couldn't be the "progression" you noticed.

He named Colin and Wilgy suspects without otherwise mentioning them. So that's not a "progression".

He said your tendency to make language-driven reads was "NAI" and then called you a town lean. Is that a "progression"?

What progression did you find understandable?

[Alison]

you know what, I don't care

just make sure to consolidate on pawn by the eod

i have faith in you

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hally is using her vote beyond just it's literal capacity to net a chop. Hally knows what's up. Let Hally be Hally.

[Hally]

Hally do you understand the reasons I have for voting pawn over wilgy?

yes? im the one who scum cased pawn

but having multiple wagons at EoD is better than one giant wagon

i use my vote as an information gathering tool

[Alison]

Hally do you understand the reasons I have for voting pawn over wilgy?

yes? im the one who scum cased pawn

but having multiple wagons at EoD is better than one giant wagon

i use my vote as an information gathering tool

none of this seems relevant in the context but again idc as long as you do the right thing

[Long Con]

@Spacedaisy @Epignosis @Hally @Wisp

Stop voting someone who's going to be modkilled and actually use the town KP to sort

what makes you think i have any intention of staying?

well this is a response?

I think it's a better ploy than stacking up on Pawn early. Shake it up, see what it pulls out.

[Hally]

Hally is using her vote beyond just it's literal capacity to net a chop. Hally knows what's up. Let Hally be Hally.

its not my first rodeo

but now that its known i will move back to pawn i will do that

[VOTE: pawn] aubergine

[Alison]

i am just going to accept that some people play the game differently from me and this is acceptable as long as they come to the correct conclusion or outcome in the end

i don't really want to argue about it and you can do what you like, i don't own your vote

[sabie12]

Hally do you understand the reasons I have for voting pawn over wilgy?

yes? im the one who scum cased pawn

but having multiple wagons at EoD is better than one giant wagon

i use my vote as an information gathering tool

Which is fine to me. I think more discussion at end of day isn't a bad thing. I don't think anyone should push people to vote how they want, but rather have a discussion and share your thoughts or ask questions to get a better understanding.

[Hally]

i am just going to accept that some people play the game differently from me and this is acceptable as long as they come to the correct conclusion or outcome in the end

i don't really want to argue about it and you can do what you like, i don't own your vote

correct, you own jays

[Long Con]

i am just going to accept that some people play the game differently from me and this is acceptable as long as they come to the correct conclusion or outcome in the end

i don't really want to argue about it and you can do what you like, i don't own your vote

I guess Pawn had better be scum then, eh?

[Millium]

he better be or we are gunna hear it from Epi

[Hally]

rip pawn

i will feel bad if hes town and subbed in for us and then we kill him while hes busy

but i do think this is the best choice for today

[Alison]

i am just going to accept that some people play the game differently from me and this is acceptable as long as they come to the correct conclusion or outcome in the end

i don't really want to argue about it and you can do what you like, i don't own your vote

I guess Pawn had better be scum then, eh?

the thing about my argument is that it is better to vote pawn than wilgy even if pawn is town

this is why I was so dismayed by people not realizing this and voting wilgy

[Hally]

why am i a drug dealer? the undertitles here are slanderous

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Pawn's my top suspect.

[Alison]

i will say that in all my years playing mafia I have seen EoD reaction tests catch mafia 2 or 3 times and hurt town dozens of times. Every time I was mafia, i have benefitted vastly from EoD chaos and disorder. This is why I am a stickler for it.

[Alison]

Just in Space Invaders alone, the kills that were agreed upon and announced well in advance were Rej, Soneji, dunya and myself. The "chaotic" kills that were unpredictable and took everyone by surprise were Dizzy and nanook. I understand that the voting dynamic there was slightly different but I think that is basically how chaos vs order tends to play out.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Total unhinged chaos is not ideal, I'd agree. I do think active EOD motion can itself be structured though, like a mass exodus from one wagon to another when a compelling reason comes into existence or the like.

Anyway right now that's not relevant.

[Hally]

what if pawn is a bomb and kills everyone on his wagon?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

what if pawn is a bomb and kills everyone on his wagon?

blame jack

[Millium]

then I guess I'll be less busy

[Hally]

lol