Jack Attack Mafia (Day 5)

[Alison]

Alison your general approach to this game is hard to buy. For a while you called me a suspect because of my orientation toward a POE approach (even as I named and cased suspects along the way). Now your adherence to the POE is more radical than anything I have ever espoused in this game. It's more radical than anything Nanook ever espoused in this game.

By the Alison method, we don't sort players in our POE group. We just chop them. The end. No discussion. No chatter. Nothing. Don't talk to them. Just kill them and go from there. That's glorified i n f o - c h o p p i n g and does not reflect the dedicated hunt of the uninformed faction.

first of all, quote where I said you were a suspect because of your POE approach. literally quote it or I'm calling you out for lying about what I said

second of all, I am a pragmatic player, not an egoistical one. I play in the way I think will maximize my team's chance of winning, not in the way I like the most, not in the way I am most comfortable with, not in the way I think mafia should be played. I have in public voiced my hatred of overly-mechanical setups and forcing wins through mechanics rather than reads vs manipulation - but my strategy in Space Invaders endgame was literally pure mechanics and counting the bunkers to run them out.

On day 1 I do not believe that POE was necessarily the most optimal way to play (although you will note that I called it "especially suited to the context of the game"). Now I believe that it is; and I further believe that opposing the POE is the most optimal way to play for mafia in this situation (even if they have someone embedded in the towncore). Therefore I choose to rigidly adhere to the strategy that I believe is optimal for town and rigidly oppose the strategy that I believe is optimal for mafia.

third of all, you are free to question the suspects in the POE group and figure out which ones of them are the scummiest, which ones of them give you the most information, or even which ones of them project town hard enough that you wish to shift them to the towncore. What I oppose is doing the opposite, casting doubt on and attacking the people in the towncore.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I'd buy that Colin is trying to counterwagon Alison. Epi clearly doesn't count, I don't count cause I'm voting for Epi, Sabie is probably town and thus probably isn't doing it maliciously.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

first of all, quote where I said you were a suspect because of your POE approach. literally quote it or I'm calling you out for lying about what I said

You told me I was suspicious for focusing more on finding civilians than on finding mafia instead of doing both. I don't need to go fetch that. You know what I am referring to.

third of all, you are free to question the suspects in the POE group and figure out which ones of them are the scummiest, which ones of them give you the most information, or even which ones of them project town hard enough that you wish to shift them to the towncore. What I oppose is doing the opposite, casting doubt on and attacking the people in the towncore.

There is one element of this dynamic that you continue to disregard, and it's at the core of what concerns me.

If anyone begins to see civilian indicators from players within the POE pool, then that must by default result in challenging players outside the pool -- someone has to be a mafioso. You'll note a few players in recent memory have voiced impressions that both Tony and Colin have looked better in recent content. This means that they have to reshape their view of the game to account for that. Are you saying then that you have not seen a single interesting thing from either of those players, or from Epignosis, that warrants your reconsideration of their posture? I'm not even saying you have to change your mind -- just reassess. Nothing has inspired that to any degree? Is that accurate?

[ColinIsCool]

I kiiiiiiiiinda want to hot potato to Tony ... any takers?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I kiiiiiiiiinda want to hot potato to Tony ... any takers?

Why?

[ColinIsCool]

I kiiiiiiiiinda want to hot potato to Tony ... any takers?

Why?

I have a lot of problems with Alison but the response to possibly getting chopped here doesn’t feel as scummy to me as I’d like it to. Maybe I’m just falling for bait here.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I kiiiiiiiiinda want to hot potato to Tony ... any takers?

you will not succeed and I will be annoyed. don't do it.

[ColinIsCool]

I kiiiiiiiiinda want to hot potato to Tony ... any takers?

you will not succeed and I will be annoyed. don't do it.

What are the reasons for why you scumread me?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I kiiiiiiiiinda want to hot potato to Tony ... any takers?

you will not succeed and I will be annoyed. don't do it.

What's your current take on Alison?

[TonyStarkPrime]

Jay, did you do an interactive ISO between epi and Alison?

[TonyStarkPrime]

I kiiiiiiiiinda want to hot potato to Tony ... any takers?

you will not succeed and I will be annoyed. don't do it.

What's your current take on Alison?

Probably flailing but as someone who's been in this position as town several times recently I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Currently probably less likely a wolf than Epi.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, did you do an interactive ISO between epi and Alison?

Not a comprehensive review. I've had too little time to go on those deep excavations unfortunately. I have highlighted certain things about their interaction that concern me (predominantly a lot of vocal pressure with no real follow-through or vote until right now).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Probably flailing but as someone who's been in this position as town several times recently I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Currently probably less likely a wolf than Epi.

What makes Epi more likely?

[TonyStarkPrime]

Jay, did you do an interactive ISO between epi and Alison?

Not a comprehensive review. I've had too little time to go on those deep excavations unfortunately. I have highlighted certain things about their interaction that concern me (predominantly a lot of vocal pressure with no real follow-through or vote until right now).

I don't want to do it myself.

[Alison]

Do not hot potato to Tony. Force the mafia to choose between Epi and me. If Epi is a wolf member, they are put in a very awkward spot where they have to either bus in a very close tie, or put the spotlight on themselves by voting me. It places them in a very difficult situation and they can wriggle free of that by voting Tony if the vote veers in that direction.

[Alison]

Anyone voting people other than Epi or me should be treated as highly suspect.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Probably flailing but as someone who's been in this position as town several times recently I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Currently probably less likely a wolf than Epi.

What makes Epi more likely?

Tone, mostly. I think teams build slightly better as well.
A thought: wolves shooting at wisp makes it substantially less likely that LC is a wolf.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Tone, mostly. I think teams build slightly better as well.
A thought: wolves shooting at wisp makes it substantially less likely that LC is a wolf.

I wouldn't say "substantially" for a guy that can check entire role cards. I acknowledge the thought though.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Tone, mostly. I think teams build slightly better as well.
A thought: wolves shooting at wisp makes it substantially less likely that LC is a wolf.

I wouldn't say "substantially" for a guy that can check entire role cards. I acknowledge the thought though.

If LC was a wolf and Wisp hit LC's fake, well.

[Alison]

first of all, quote where I said you were a suspect because of your POE approach. literally quote it or I'm calling you out for lying about what I said

You told me I was suspicious for focusing more on finding civilians than on finding mafia instead of doing both. I don't need to go fetch that. You know what I am referring to.

third of all, you are free to question the suspects in the POE group and figure out which ones of them are the scummiest, which ones of them give you the most information, or even which ones of them project town hard enough that you wish to shift them to the towncore. What I oppose is doing the opposite, casting doubt on and attacking the people in the towncore.

There is one element of this dynamic that you continue to disregard, and it's at the core of what concerns me.

If anyone begins to see civilian indicators from players within the POE pool, then that must by default result in challenging players outside the pool -- someone has to be a mafioso. You'll note a few players in recent memory have voiced impressions that both Tony and Colin have looked better in recent content. This means that they have to reshape their view of the game to account for that. Are you saying then that you have not seen a single interesting thing from either of those players, or from Epignosis, that warrants your reconsideration of their posture? I'm not even saying you have to change your mind -- just reassess. Nothing has inspired that to any degree? Is that accurate?

No, I said clearly that it was scummy in a vacuum but not scummy in the context of your play.

Also:

1) I haven't seen any civillian indicators in anyone in the POE except myself.

2) Any civillian indicators would have to be stronger than the things that clear the towncore for me to push out members of the towncore in favor of people from the POE, which is a high barto clear.

I am comfortable saying that nothing I have seen from TSP, Colin or Epi has made me change my mind about putting them in POE. Some stuff have changed the position they're in within the POE, but the idea of booting out someone from the towncore to make space for them is absurd to me. They have all done things I find highly objectionable, compared to everyone in the towncore, who either have done nothing but things I find townie, or are mechanically cleared.

I have no problems shifting members of the POE to towncore if I think they have done something that looks townie. But they haven't here. Certainly not to the extent that I'd bloat out the towncore until it has to contain a mafioso.

[ColinIsCool]

Do not hot potato to Tony. Force the mafia to choose between Epi and me. If Epi is a wolf member, they are put in a very awkward spot where they have to either bus in a very close tie, or put the spotlight on themselves by voting me. It places them in a very difficult situation and they can wriggle free of that by voting Tony if the vote veers in that direction.

Yeah but what if Epi is town and Tony isn’t

[Epignosis]

Spoiler: show

Epignosis
5
36%


Voters: Hally, nutella, Alison, TonyStarkPrime, KitsuShel

I'd say these people are as lost as I am.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Spoiler: show

Epignosis
5
36%


Voters: Hally, nutella, Alison, TonyStarkPrime, KitsuShel

I'd say these people are as lost as I am.

[VOTE: Epignosis] aubergine

[Alison]

Do not hot potato to Tony. Force the mafia to choose between Epi and me. If Epi is a wolf member, they are put in a very awkward spot where they have to either bus in a very close tie, or put the spotlight on themselves by voting me. It places them in a very difficult situation and they can wriggle free of that by voting Tony if the vote veers in that direction.

Yeah but what if Epi is town and Tony isn’t

Could be. I'm fairly confident Epi is scum, but not 100%. But I think Epi has high enough scum equity that I'm not going to let go of a chance to possibly make his teammates reveal themselves by associatives. For an execute on Tony to be more correct than executing between me and Epi, Epi has to be town and Tony has to not be town. If either of those things are untrue, it is better to execute between Epi and me. (If Tony is town, executing him leaves us back at square one with the me/Epi situation unresolved.) So since the probability that all of those things are true is less than probability that not all of those things are true, it is correct to execute between me and Epi.

[Epignosis]

Spoiler: show

Epignosis
5
36%


Voters: Hally, nutella, Alison, TonyStarkPrime, KitsuShel

I'd say these people are as lost as I am.

[VOTE: Epignosis] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To put it as succinctly as I can:

The hell are you doing?

[ColinIsCool]

I am comfortable saying that nothing I have seen from TSP, Colin or Epi has made me change my mind about putting them in POE. [...] They have all done things I find highly objectionable, compared to everyone in the towncore, who either have done nothing but things I find townie, or are mechanically cleared.

I have no problems shifting members of the POE to towncore if I think they have done something that looks townie. But they haven't here. Certainly not to the extent that I'd bloat out the towncore until it has to contain a mafioso.

I just find it very hard to believe that you have seen nothing from the 3 of us that you would think “hm, maybe they’re town”. And that you have people in this game where you’ve read every one of their posts and thought to all of them “yep, they’re town!”

You keep insisting that there’s an objective towncore that we all agree on but outside of mechanical clears there just isn’t. It feels super disingenuous and as if you want to lead is to a number of mischops (mine included in there) in order to piddle the town’s good gamestate away.

[nutella]

Hi all. I'm free now and will be responding to the accusations laid out against me. I think they are poorly reasoned, and I will show you why.

[VOTE: alison] aubergine

[Epignosis]

To put it as succinctly as I can:

The hell are you doing?

What do you think I'm doing?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hi all. I'm free now and will be responding to the accusations laid out against me. I think they are poorly reasoned, and I will show you why.

[VOTE: alison] aubergine

lmao great vote, literally

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To put it as succinctly as I can:

The hell are you doing?

What do you think I'm doing?

I don't know man. I meant that question in the most general sense, by the way. I can't say your play in this game is clearly "mafia Epignosis". I don't know what it is.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Do not hot potato to Tony. Force the mafia to choose between Epi and me. If Epi is a wolf member, they are put in a very awkward spot where they have to either bus in a very close tie, or put the spotlight on themselves by voting me. It places them in a very difficult situation and they can wriggle free of that by voting Tony if the vote veers in that direction.

Yeah but what if Epi is town and Tony isn’t

let's think through this mindset being offered here.
Epi is town.
Alison is town.
Colin is town.
The scum team is... ???

[Epignosis]

To put it as succinctly as I can:

The hell are you doing?

What do you think I'm doing?

I don't know man. I meant that question in the most general sense, by the way. I can't say your play in this game is clearly "mafia Epignosis". I don't know what it is.

In that case, have a beer and let me have a little fun.

[Alison]

I am comfortable saying that nothing I have seen from TSP, Colin or Epi has made me change my mind about putting them in POE. [...] They have all done things I find highly objectionable, compared to everyone in the towncore, who either have done nothing but things I find townie, or are mechanically cleared.

I have no problems shifting members of the POE to towncore if I think they have done something that looks townie. But they haven't here. Certainly not to the extent that I'd bloat out the towncore until it has to contain a mafioso.

I just find it very hard to believe that you have seen nothing from the 3 of us that you would think “hm, maybe they’re town”. And that you have people in this game where you’ve read every one of their posts and thought to all of them “yep, they’re town!”

You keep insisting that there’s an objective towncore that we all agree on but outside of mechanical clears there just isn’t. It feels super disingenuous and as if you want to lead is to a number of mischops (mine included in there) in order to piddle the town’s good gamestate away.

Why do you find this hard to believe

you three have just done nothing that I strongly like

[TonyStarkPrime]

Like I can sort of get where Alison is coming from. Not sure on Colin.

[ColinIsCool]

Do not hot potato to Tony. Force the mafia to choose between Epi and me. If Epi is a wolf member, they are put in a very awkward spot where they have to either bus in a very close tie, or put the spotlight on themselves by voting me. It places them in a very difficult situation and they can wriggle free of that by voting Tony if the vote veers in that direction.

Yeah but what if Epi is town and Tony isn’t

let's think through this mindset being offered here.
Epi is town.
Alison is town.
Colin is town.
The scum team is... ???

Yeah good point. Tony/Kitsu/Jay? Do we know it’s 3?

[ColinIsCool]

Do not hot potato to Tony. Force the mafia to choose between Epi and me. If Epi is a wolf member, they are put in a very awkward spot where they have to either bus in a very close tie, or put the spotlight on themselves by voting me. It places them in a very difficult situation and they can wriggle free of that by voting Tony if the vote veers in that direction.

Yeah but what if Epi is town and Tony isn’t

Could be. I'm fairly confident Epi is scum, but not 100%. But I think Epi has high enough scum equity that I'm not going to let go of a chance to possibly make his teammates reveal themselves by associatives. For an execute on Tony to be more correct than executing between me and Epi, Epi has to be town and Tony has to not be town. If either of those things are untrue, it is better to execute between Epi and me. (If Tony is town, executing him leaves us back at square one with the me/Epi situation unresolved.) So since the probability that all of those things are true is less than probability that not all of those things are true, it is correct to execute between me and Epi.

I am wondering now if the math actually bears this out. If we’re gonna start throwing around “probability” we should be scientific about it.

[ColinIsCool]

Like I can sort of get where Alison is coming from. Not sure on Colin.

Is that your answer to my unanswered question?

[TonyStarkPrime]

Do not hot potato to Tony. Force the mafia to choose between Epi and me. If Epi is a wolf member, they are put in a very awkward spot where they have to either bus in a very close tie, or put the spotlight on themselves by voting me. It places them in a very difficult situation and they can wriggle free of that by voting Tony if the vote veers in that direction.

Yeah but what if Epi is town and Tony isn’t

let's think through this mindset being offered here.
Epi is town.
Alison is town.
Colin is town.
The scum team is... ???

Yeah good point. Tony/Kitsu/Jay? Do we know it’s 3?

Tony Kitsu Jay is... low key brilliant actually. Like me setting up to elim Alison/epi after jay's poe goes south, and then either of us can elim the other for huge credit at any point. It's also completely unreasonable on many levels. It's pretty much the only possible team with epi/alison/colin as v/v/v.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Like I can sort of get where Alison is coming from. Not sure on Colin.

Is that your answer to my unanswered question?

No.

[TonyStarkPrime]

(someone's gonna be like TSP slipped too much talking about himself as a wolf and if it's alison or colin I'm going to vote for them)

[TonyStarkPrime]

do Epi/Alison vote for each other to the death? Do they have another saving option?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There's something deeply inspiring to me about this whole careful dialogue with nutella just seeing one post and saying "nah that's a vote". And I understand it.

[Alison]

I don't think I can stay up for this EoD sorry. If you guys want to do some "hot potato" stuff or whatever count me out. Here's what I want to say in case I die.

- Listen to my legacy. Once I die, I am confirmed town. Read everything I've said this day phase with the realization that it comes from confirmed town who genuinely believes everything she is saying. If you have any doubts about what my stances are, ask them now. I think I've made it extremely clear who I think is town, who I think is scum, and how I think town should proceed forward from this game.

- Look at the way the wagon developed on me, the progression of the votes, and who the wagon was trying to protect. I do not believe that wagon formed in a legitimate way. I singled out JJJ, Sabie, Epi and Colin as the ones who look the worst from the wagon formation on me, and while I don't think literally all of them are scum, you would be well served by looking into that group.

I'm tired of people questioning me when I think my reasoning is logically sound. If you want to exe me, have at it, use the information from my flip to narrow down the field of possible suspects, and solve the game. I do not mind dying if my death serves my team's win condition - as mentioned, I am a pragmatic player, not an egoistical one. I'll be responding to linkis after this and then winding down for the night.

Make good decisions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

do Epi/Alison vote for each other to the death? Do they have another saving option?

This "thunderdome" does not dissociate them in my view, especially as Epignosis just drifts through the day tossing token complaints at Alison every five hours.

[Alison]

Everything Colin and Tony are saying right now has super vindicated my decision to try to shut people down when they bring up silly tinfoils.

[Alison]

do Epi/Alison vote for each other to the death? Do they have another saving option?

This "thunderdome" does not dissociate them in my view, especially as Epignosis just drifts through the day tossing token complaints at Alison every five hours.

This is probably slightly town I guess since JJJ seems to be setting up really hard to execute Epi after I flip wolf, and if he's wolf he knows I won't, so it indicates that he genuinely believes I am a wolf

[TonyStarkPrime]

do Epi/Alison vote for each other to the death? Do they have another saving option?

This "thunderdome" does not dissociate them in my view, especially as Epignosis just drifts through the day tossing token complaints at Alison every five hours.

This is a reason I'm voting Epi. Seems like he's doing no work to make Epi/Alison seem like not w/w. Would indicate that he's a wolf and if he dies wants to take Alison along for the ride. Alison is not taking that route.

[Alison]

I do think Epi is a wolf and I feel like some amount of his inactivity is due to real life reasons (I believe him about wanting to take a break from mafia, I don't think he'd lie about that). I do think he gives off the "I'm caught, let's just throw as much shit as I can at Alison" so she goes down with me vibe a lot.

[ColinIsCool]

Epignosis is good enough to fool me but I really struggle to see him being scum here.