Philosophers' Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Long Con]

First of all, lynching me is not the best course of action in any world, I don't see how that makes sense at all. Nanook is saying I'm uncooperative somehow, that is absolutely not the case. I have played this entire game as if I were town, and I will continue to do so, I have no reason not to. Acting like I'm some hostile third party makes no sense at all. I'm not hostile, I'm pretty fucking town sided.

Rabbit, you want me to make some case, tutuu has done it already. That is the reality that I am believing. She has no more posts, but she has said enough already. She voted Haley , I would have thought Amy was a better choice, but I'm going to vote with tutuu, forever at this point.

Fwiw usually on syndicate mafia wincon is reach parity of living players, i.e. 3/3/1 isn’t counted as parity and neither is 2/2/1



Idk tutu I’m thinking about it. Like...it makes some intuitive sense, yeah. Idk if it makes mech sense, I also don’t know how fruitful it is to look at mech stuff this game atp.

I also realllllly want to kill LC, crappy unhelpful 3p claims shouldn’t be rewarded but w/e

Bro, sorry I'm so crappy and unhelpful with my role card, I'll try to get one more satisfying to you next time, dude. Do something about this killboner you have for me, because it seriously is going to mess up my win condition, and it sure as hell isn't going to help your win condition.

i still dont see why we need to yeet lc as he can potentially win with town

but if we're not 100% sure on amy ig whatever

Assuming you believe his claim

Which uh

Like, maybe his claim is accurate, I definitely believe he needs to be on votes, but the rest of his play and refusal to cooperate is like...not a great look tbh

What the hell are you even talking about, what have I refused to cooperate with?

[VOTE: hally] aubergine

[Long Con]

Looking over the last page of Hally's posts, the first five posts on the page, assuming you have the same number post per page as me, they are all scum Hally trying to survive. I mean, they're all scum Hally trying to survive, but the posts where she agrees Amy is probably scum but we should Lynch LC instead are just grasping.

[iaafr]

idk dude you literally have a red name

[Long Con]

idk dude you literally have a red name

I know, and the name "Long Con" doesn't inspire confidence either, right? I'm typing up a longer post right now, gimme a min, Just came to the thread to get something, and although In forget what it was because of your distraction and alcohol, I am confident I'll remember when I go back to my post.

[Long Con]

35/60 first time I have checked myself

NANOOK and iaffr, so you guys are confirmed town, right? I recall that iaafr had a thing with WWH that confirmed, I think, and I can't remember right now why NANOOK is, but whatever. You guys are both talking about yeeting me here... AND you believe my claim? Or is it because you don't believe my claim?

If you don't believe it, then fine, fair game, vote for me and realize later that it wasn't the right move. That's legit.

But if you DO believe my claim, then how is yeeting me sensible, ever? I feel like you guys have an attitude where I'm troublesome and uncooperative. Is that because I said I'm not your dog? Is your dominance hurt or something??

tutuu's Scooby post was a goddamn work of art, singularly beautiful, and putting me as Scooby, after my dog comment, is really the icing on the cake. Like, I'm kissing my fingertips like a master chef here, so delightfully witty... the other character assignments were also spot-on. A+. This paragraph has solely been a tangent to bring that post up, because it's the most enjoyable post I've read in several games. Absolutely bravo³.

But, back to the point. You can't believe my claim and also vote me. There is no angle by which that makes sense, especially with the POE narrowed down so well.

I'll bring up Hally's point now, to be fair since she's out of posts: we don't have to 100% trust the mech clears, and she really thinks that there's something wrong with the mech clears we think we have. That could be the case, but I still don't see how I'm a desirable lynch here.

I have dropped several hints along the way about my role, not to mention my actions support it. Was my embarrassing attempt to get in on Proto's lynch a fake? Was this Day 0 post a fake?

I am currently town, and my role will develop less than privately if I survive. I would like to survive.

Voting me is not the right move.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

i think either he’s actually mafia with amy

or he can also scum side and win with mafia but just is omitting that part of his wincon

Um

Why are you so against killing him then ???

[iaafr]

i think either he’s actually mafia with amy

or he can also scum side and win with mafia but just is omitting that part of his wincon

Um

Why are you so against killing him then ???

i think you have hally confused with somebody else?

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

i think either he’s actually mafia with amy

or he can also scum side and win with mafia but just is omitting that part of his wincon

Um

Why are you so against killing him then ???

Wait no I confused your stance with Nutella’s

Nvm I’m dumb at 2:30 kek

[iaafr]

NANOOK and iaffr, so you guys are confirmed town, right? I recall that iaafr had a thing with WWH that confirmed, I think, and I can't remember right now why NANOOK is, but whatever. You guys are both talking about yeeting me here... AND you believe my claim? Or is it because you don't believe my claim?

If you don't believe it, then fine, fair game, vote for me and realize later that it wasn't the right move. That's legit.

to be clear, if i end up voting for you, it will be a combination of giving you the respect that you might set up this fakeclaim ahead of time as scum (i.e., yeah i don't see a reason to play as if i 100% believe it despite the breadcrumbing and consistency), and being fearful that hally is Just Town and hally less safe of a vote than you, when tomorrow's gamestate will reset a bit.

and yeah i actually deep down believe you're mafia, and not town=>3p. will be funny surprise if wrong.

sorry if hally is actually scum, you're what you claim, and me voting hally wouldve won you your game

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I believe exactly the part of your claim that you have to be on successful votes.


I don’t see any particular reason this couldn’t be a well setup mafia claim, or probably more likely, you’re a 3p lying about your win con

[Long Con]

Pretty sure that if you go back over my posts, you'll find plenty of consistency and evidence of the reality of my role. I have not been laying phony breadcrumbs down. I'm very sure that a fake claim would not look like this, from the Day 0 hint, to the unexpected vest loss on night 1, to the hammer of Benson, to the Proto hammer reaction... these are real, and my claim is real, and you lynching me is the only way I can lose, barring some 20% silly attempt from the scum. Not only does lynching me make me lose, it also makes you lose. The only one(s) who want to see a Long Con lynch are the scum team, and I promise you that they will be laughing so hard at you if you yeet me today.

[Amy]

Shifting into proper capitalization mode to get my brain in the right frame of mind. Need to be thinking seriously.

If it's 3/3/1, we lose if we dunk LC. So that's a concern. I don't THINK it's 3/3/1, but it's... something to keep in mind. Any other configuration makes LC a safe dunk.

"Amy does this mean you believe LC's claim" yeah I think I kinda do. I could give him credit for legit setting up the Long Con, but... I think it's genuine. And I think it'd be a somewhat asinine thing to claim as a wolf here, because most of the game was willing to treat you as a villager prior to this.

Oh actually here's a thought - he didn't claim 3p until after the failed redirect was established and people began theorizing that me and him were w/w. I can see LC feeling pressured to claim to disprove this theory if he legitimately thought I was likely to flip scum, or at least wasn't sure I would flip town, and thus felt the need to clarify that this wasn't the case and that he shouldn't be chain dunked if I flipped red.

I of course know that I will not flip red, so I know that this claim relies on a lack of TMI, because if LC was a wolf he'd know I was a villager and know that there was no danger of a chaindunk.

Maybe he's lying about his wincon? But I don't think he's lying about his alignment. I think he's legitimately 3p, which means we live in one of the following worlds:

5/1/1
4/2/1
3/3/1

LC is a safe dunk in the first two worlds - in the second, he's arguably the CORRECT dunk, as having another set of night results may prove pivotal to solving the puzzle - but I'm not willing to risk it until I feel more comfortable that we're not in the third world, given what nutella said about how the third world is apparently still possible on this site and doesn't count as parity >_>

I'm currently rereading Day 1 and 2 to refresh my perspective. The nutella-Hally-Radishes axis is the key to solving this game. I need to go over it again with fresh eyes.

27/60

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

LC, your AtE is misguided at best. For one, it isn’t particularly convincing and relies largely on a combination of fear mongering and “you’ll feel bad about this,” and that isn’t the right combo to use on me kek

For another, I don’t really doubt you’re 3p much, you probably are! I also don’t doubt that whatever your alignment is you have to be on successful votes (or at the very least it benefits you to be on them). What I do doubt is that you can’t win with scum. You pointing to where you’ve breadcrumbed that you had to be on votes or whatever is like...ok, sure? But it doesn’t say much if anything about your wincon.

[Hally]

i think misliming me here is actually game losing but i am powerless to stop it because i cannot tell you who the wolves are or convince anyone that i am in fact town

[Hally]

i will die on the wolf radishes hill btw

regardless of what happens at least i have that

[Amy]

I'm actually going to eliminate the 5/1/1 world from worlds that I'm considering, mostly for town power reasons.

For the 5/1/1 world to be correct, we'd be looking at Radishes legitimately being a dead wolf Nutella being truthful. The wolf would PROBABLY either be tutuu or Hally, but either way means that town would either have a full redirector or a full alignment cop on top of all the other shit we've flipped with, against 4 wolves. That's absurd. I don't buy it.

It's 4/2/1 or 3/3/1. Hopefully the former.

28/60

[Hally]

i really struggle to see why it is so hard for people to town read me this game

i think i’ve been very villagery and the fact that i’m not out of the poe yet is just inertia from ppl wanting me to be scum more than actually caring about whether i am

[Hally]

I'm actually going to eliminate the 5/1/1 world from worlds that I'm considering, mostly for town power reasons.

For the 5/1/1 world to be correct, we'd be looking at Radishes legitimately being a dead wolf Nutella being truthful. The wolf would PROBABLY either be tutuu or Hally, but either way means that town would either have a full redirector or a full alignment cop on top of all the other shit we've flipped with, against 4 wolves. That's absurd. I don't buy it.

It's 4/2/1 or 3/3/1. Hopefully the former.

28/60

it’s actually ridiculous to think i could be w/w with radishes but ok

[Hally]

it’s not possible we are in a three wolf world

it just isn’t

[nutella]

given what nutella said about how the third world is apparently still possible on this site and doesn't count as parity >_>

i didnt say that and don't think it's true????

[Hally]

amy are you actually considering voting me over lc? like actually?

[Hally]

given what nutella said about how the third world is apparently still possible on this site and doesn't count as parity >_>

i didnt say that and don't think it's true????

i think nanook said that

[Amy]

i really struggle to see why it is so hard for people to town read me this game

i think i’ve been very villagery and the fact that i’m not out of the poe yet is just inertia from ppl wanting me to be scum more than actually caring about whether i am

I have a greenpeek on Nanook that I think is very unlikely to be a godfather for reasons that I'm willing to go into if asked. Long Con is probably 3p. FMPOV there are 2-3 wolves in [you/nutella/iaafr/tutuu]. If Radishes was a wolf, that number drops to a 2, but it also hardclears nutella, leaving me to find the SINGLE villager in you/iaafr/tutuu.

My PoE is not large enough for me to start townclearing people without fully refreshing myself on events.

29/60

linki: nutella I swear someone said it. Probably assumed it was you based on you being the resident Person Who Knows Things About The Syndicate. If it's 3/3/1 and TSP hasn't called the game then lolhim I guess.

Hally please like. Chill. I'm still rereading, I have no fucking clue who I'm voting for, we've got plenty of time and I hate making snap decisions. Save your posts lol.

linki 2 jesus christ: oh Nanook saying that would also make sense, I guess

[Hally]

[mention]Long Con[/mention] why am i a wolf?

for you to believe that you have to believe either radishes was exactly town vig (and our third one at that) or that i as a wolf shot at you directly even though you were in my poe

i don’t believe you think that. i think you just wanna live

[nutella]

i think the possible worlds assuming LC is 3p are 4/2/1 with amy/hally or tutuu/hally (what about hally/iaafr does that work??), or 5/1/1 with amy or tutuu (??)

idk i'm probably forgetting something again that makes one of these not make sense

[Hally]

wait i thought day was ending today omg sorry [mention]TonyStarkPrime[/mention]

[Amy]

i think the possible worlds assuming LC is 3p are 4/2/1 with amy/hally or tutuu/hally (what about hally/iaafr does that work??), or 5/1/1 with amy or tutuu (??)

idk i'm probably forgetting something again that makes one of these not make sense

I still don't understand why you think the game could ever play out like it has if I were the lone wolf remaining but OK.

Also the town power thing I talked about a few posts ago.

wait i thought day was ending today omg sorry @TonyStarkPrime

Oh. That explains the panic I guess lol.

30/60

[nutella]

i think the possible worlds assuming LC is 3p are 4/2/1 with amy/hally or tutuu/hally (what about hally/iaafr does that work??), or 5/1/1 with amy or tutuu (??)

idk i'm probably forgetting something again that makes one of these not make sense

I still don't understand why you think the game could ever play out like it has if I were the lone wolf remaining but OK.

Also the town power thing I talked about a few posts ago.

wait i thought day was ending today omg sorry @TonyStarkPrime

Oh. That explains the panic I guess lol.

30/60

i mean you'd be a roleblocker here imo

[nutella]

also everyone is going on about "town power too OP hurr durr" but like. we eliminated 2-3 wolves very early and don't know what abilities they would have had. the wolf team probably would have been pretty strongly powered if we hadn't gotten straight to dunking them. and yeah it looks like they still have a roleblocker remaining

[Amy]

i think the possible worlds assuming LC is 3p are 4/2/1 with amy/hally or tutuu/hally (what about hally/iaafr does that work??), or 5/1/1 with amy or tutuu (??)

idk i'm probably forgetting something again that makes one of these not make sense

I still don't understand why you think the game could ever play out like it has if I were the lone wolf remaining but OK.

Also the town power thing I talked about a few posts ago.

wait i thought day was ending today omg sorry @TonyStarkPrime

Oh. That explains the panic I guess lol.

30/60

i mean you'd be a roleblocker here imo

If I were a lone wolf roleblocker I would have blocked Benson and killed tutuu Night 2. Literally no reason for me to give her as many peeks as she got.

The argument for me/Hally seems to be that I wouldn't have blocked tutuu until she was peeking exactly me or my partner but I value PoE extremely highly and would have attempted to stop her from clearing literally anyone no matter what.

The N4 peek having failed is honestly the other key to solving the mystery. If real, where have the other blocks been? If fake, why did tutuu choose to claim it?

I miss mountainous.

31/60

linki: your point about unknown wolf power is... actually somewhat fair? but I still think a full alignment cop or a full redirector on top of everything else we have is A Lot. And I still don't know if I'm 100% sold on the roleblocker being real.

[nutella]

or you're not a roleblocker and tutuu was right about hally being ascetic i guess. i felt like i had a decent handle on tutuu's solves last night and now it's all kind of a blur

[nutella]

The N4 peek having failed is honestly the other key to solving the mystery. If real, where have the other blocks been? If fake, why did tutuu choose to claim it?

yeah the hally=ascetic thing is the most compelling solution to this i think

[Long Con]

LC, your AtE is misguided at best. For one, it isn’t particularly convincing and relies largely on a combination of fear mongering and “you’ll feel bad about this,” and that isn’t the right combo to use on me kek

For another, I don’t really doubt you’re 3p much, you probably are! I also don’t doubt that whatever your alignment is you have to be on successful votes (or at the very least it benefits you to be on them). What I do doubt is that you can’t win with scum. You pointing to where you’ve breadcrumbed that you had to be on votes or whatever is like...ok, sure? But it doesn’t say much if anything about your wincon.

wtf? AtE? I'm telling you to lynch wolves to win and you are calling that AtE? Gimme some of whatever drugs you're taking. Have you even interacted at all with tutuu's posts today?

[Long Con]

Call my basic understanding of Mafia 'fearmongering' and yet smile and nod at Amy and Hally's scary LYLOMYLO talk. I can't fix what's broken in you man.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

That’s just fucking rude, gtfo here

[Long Con]

I'm sorry, I'm just flabbergasted at your point of view here, I'm asking you to win together and you're telling me you'd rather lose together, that's what I'm seeing and I don't get it.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

How hard is it to understand I don’t believe your claimed win condition


I do not believe you have no option to win with scum

[Long Con]

I honestly don't know if I can or not, and what if I could? I'm still, like I have been all game, Town siding. I revealed all the information I could about my role in order to help the town make decisions.

[iaafr]

I honestly don't know if I can or not, and what if I could? I'm still, like I have been all game, Town siding. I revealed all the information I could about my role in order to help the town make decisions.

idk man I isoed you and you aren't especially townsidey

side by side with Hally for amount of effort spent solving, sorting, defending townreads, etc and it's 0 contest

[Long Con]

I honestly don't know if I can or not, and what if I could? I'm still, like I have been all game, Town siding. I revealed all the information I could about my role in order to help the town make decisions.

idk man I isoed you and you aren't especially townsidey

side by side with Hally for amount of effort spent solving, sorting, defending townreads, etc and it's 0 contest

Pretty NAI for me if you know me, I'm not he most energetic player.

Doesn't change the fact that yeeting me in order to get more info that is, in part, coming to you from scum AND YOU KNOW THIS. And then base your game off the tainted info as you've likely been doing all along.

That is an obvious losing strategy. What my claim does is narrow down the POE. Why are you so reluctant to pull the trigger?

I don't have anything to say beyond what tutuu's posts have already made very clear. I can't recall if anyone else read them at this point. We need to lynch in Hally and/or Amy, and tutuu made it clear what logic is being used to come to that conclusion.

[Long Con]

Not to mention, I am useful. You don't want to yeet Hally? Well then she's a redirector, since you trust her so much, get her to redirect your least trusted person on to me. I'll absorb that night kill like it ain't no thang.

[Long Con]

Actually cancel that last post, I'd most likely just block Hally's power.

[iaafr]

Doesn't change the fact that yeeting me in order to get more info that is, in part, coming to you from scum AND YOU KNOW THIS.

it's actually not obvious at all to me that hally is lock scum, and i've read tutuu's case

i mean tutuu's confidence still stems from a pretty loaded assumption about how amy/hally would act as V in the gamestate of reacting to last day's mech, and i don't see it as a given that v!hally always just buries amy like tutuu seems to have expected.

that aside, there still is no holistic burial of hally. you say tutuu's case should be sufficient; well, it clearly isnt for me. so help me see it better by reiterating/rephrasing what's so compelling about tutuu's case? or bury hally otherwise, since you seem to think they're lock scum now?


fmpov a you+amy world is still perfectly likely. help me see how that world might be impossible and/or help me see how hally is locked scum, and i will more strongly consider voting hally over you.

[Long Con]

Fair enough, tutuu's case was pretty impassioned, and the level that I feel she is convinced does affect my opinion. She used up all her posts for it, which incidentally, is pretty townish - like, a scum would maybe hold back more just in case, to adapt to the thread,

I don't have any proof of non-alliance with Amy specifically. I think the strength of my claim lies in the history of my game. I feel that an objective look at my progression, both what I said intentionally and things I did reactively - plus what is and isn't in the Rules - should lead you to being comfortable trusting that I'm not mafia.

[iaafr]

i mean sorry if you are what you claim, but that's just not something that could ever on its own, make me vote hally over you

are you asking me to not give you the respect that you couldve come up with and roleplayed a town->3p role after seeing a scum role + the rules? are you saying youd never actually come up with that as a fakeclaim as scum, in a game where scum pretty much need to come up with ostensibly nonscum versions of their roles?

i believe you that you've consistently played as if you're town=>3p who wants to hammer scum. i don't believe you that coming up with that claim is out of the question for scum!you. i don't particularly believe you've played particularly townsided in general, you've just pretty much followed the tides all game.

if you don't independently case hally as scum, or some way to prove that you could never be scum faking your role (and im not sure this is actually possible), i'm probably not voting hally. i mean full disclosure, even if you do those things, i'm probably not going to buy it at this point; though idk, i keep a pretty open mind in general when things give me real reason to doubt my convictions (which are usually weak in the first place, but this is like a pretty mechanically tight situation lol)

[mention]nutella[/mention] are you still leaning voting hally over lc here? im still personally very inclined to buy hally town amy/lc scum so.... i mean... mechanically thats not the loss if you vote that way, just. well you either trust me or you trust tutuu i guess; i feel pretty commited to straight opposing tutuu's worldview atp.

51/60 i think

and even in the world lc isnt lying, i still would rather vote amy over hally rn? idk. tutuu believes hally has more scum equity than amy in this situation; i certainly don't.

[Long Con]

I am fine with an Amy lynch, I did say when I followed tutuu's vote that I was surprised she thought Hally was the better choice.

[nutella]

I'm fine with yeeting amy or lc today, if the majority thinks it's mechanically better to yeet lc i....still disagree but can go along with it. we can see what happens with hally's redirect overnight i guess.

[Long Con]

are you asking me to not give you the respect that you couldve come up with and roleplayed a town->3p role after seeing a scum role + the rules? are you saying youd never actually come up with that as a fakeclaim as scum, in a game where scum pretty much need to come up with ostensibly nonscum versions of their roles?

I think a planned roleplay would have played out much more smoothly, and the way things did play out objectively point to it being real, and not contrived.

[iaafr]

are you asking me to not give you the respect that you couldve come up with and roleplayed a town->3p role after seeing a scum role + the rules? are you saying youd never actually come up with that as a fakeclaim as scum, in a game where scum pretty much need to come up with ostensibly nonscum versions of their roles?

I think a planned roleplay would have played out much more smoothly, and the way things did play out objectively point to it being real, and not contrived.

could you quote what you believe should come off as real and not contrived?


---

if any switch to amy is coming we're gonna have to wait till postcap drop to talk that out anyhow (and im not even sure how much i believe it)


(sidenote: this postcap definitely feels constricting in later phases when the small playercount + heavy mech probably means having a higher postcap would be cromulent but meh)


like all mech aside, here is my order of towniness inside the poe

hally >> amy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lc

entire playerlist version?

tutuu >> nanook / hally >> nutella >>> amy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lc

idk this game is so fucky. if nutellas a godfather we loltsp? if nanook is a role specifically designed to get falsely cleared by v!amy's role we loltsp?

i hate how i essentially have no baseline for how much i should be tinfoiling weird shit

so i will continue to live in the basic world where the basic poe is amy/hally/lc even though amy/hally both have quite villagery moments at times.

so ultimately i wanna kill lc first no matter what.

[Long Con]

Isn't the best evidence against Hally that tutuu's check failed on her? How does that happen? One idea is a roleblocker, but really, what evidence have we seen before tonight that there's a roleblocker in play? I was thinking that a Hally-Amy team would work with Hally as redirecter and Amy as roleblocker, but I feel like we would have seen some evidence of blocked roles?

So how did tutuu's check get blocked? Hally could just be Ascetic.