Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:44 pm[VOTE:
Tutuu] aubergine Some of the arguments between Dizzy, Marmot and Long Con have been at least partially convincing to me.
Couple that with the fact that I got the impression Tutuu was trying to buddying me for a little while, and also Tutuu's progression on me has seemed very forced/reactive to how others are acting in regard to me and her rather than coming from an original place. I've only played one game with Tutuu, but in it, she seemed at least reasonably willing to go against the grain with reads, making her progression on me suspicious to me.
You were wrong on my alignment in that one game we played together so I'm not sure why do you think that you suddenly figured out how to not be wrong on me.
The day you got voted, I was actually the only one who wasn't wrong about your alignment. I literally thought you were so towny that I dangled you like a piece of bait to see if anyone would bite (because I didn't think town would bite... I was wrong)... and it ended up getting you killed. Sorry :/
Also, this argument is bad. If I've been wrong in the past, do you expect me to never try to read you again? Do you have any reason why I shouldn't think you're scum, or are you going to just try to tell me I can't read you?
Are there any arguments that Tutuu is town? If so, I'd like to hear.
I only remember one off the top of my head: Someone looked into Tutuu's scumgame and saw that Tutuu was being very lovey-dovey there... I didn't give this much weight thought since I think Tutuu has only played one scum game? and it was a very long time ago? If that is the case, I'd say Tutuu's scum meta is not a trustable source. This is not a reason to scum-read Tutuu, but just saying that I don't think the difference in current Tutuu vs. Tutuu's scum game is a strong reason to townread Tutuu.
tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:55 pm
I am not telling you that you shouldn't try, I am simply letting you know that you are wrong twice in a row.
Okay, thanks for the heads up. Of course, I can't take your word for it, so this is unproductive.
Instead, lets try something productive. You said that you came into the game with the intention of being serious to help you catch scum. Why did we have that Office exchange at the beginning of the game then? That didn't feel very serious to me.
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:55 pm
Are there any arguments that Tutuu is town? If so, I'd like to hear.
My best one atm:
'Why would Tutuu see her wolf card and decide now's the time to noticeably switch up her in-game personality/playstyle, seeing as she should reasonably expect it would attract unwanted attention?'
tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:55 pm
I am not telling you that you shouldn't try, I am simply letting you know that you are wrong twice in a row.
Okay, thanks for the heads up. Of course, I can't take your word for it, so this is unproductive.
Instead, lets try something productive. You said that you came into the game with the intention of being serious to help you catch scum. Why did we have that Office exchange at the beginning of the game then? That didn't feel very serious to me.
I was transitioning from Jim to Dwight. It was a good transition.
Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:19 pm
So, unsupported meta and a throwaway finisher sentence. I'm not really buying it, tutes.
Not sure why are you calling it unsupported. I have seen around 5 games where Marmot was Mafia prior to this game. You are confirmation biasing.
I mean, I have no way of confirming whether you have a great memory of everyone's playstyle in every game, or if you are making it up, unless I do an exhaustive search of Marmot's past. Then, when I find a scum game where Marmot was semantics-arguing, you can just say "*shrug* well I meant the ones he's not" and my time will turn out to be not well spent.
That's not confirmation bias. That's how I view most meta arguments when they're unsupported.
That is literally confirmation bias. "It is not resourceful of me to confirm your claims of your understanding of Marmot's meta, therefore I shall default to assume that you're lying about something."
It is absurd to think that it would be correct of me to go over Marmot's ISOs in past games myself and quote non-semantics posts to prove my read that I believe he is non-semantic as mafia. You want me to bring you proof of me claiming that something does not exist - that is ridiculous. It's like I said Santa Claus isn't real and you said "Prove Santa Claus isn't real".
You're trying to complicate things. It's not an absurd idea for you to just grab some links to Marmot scum game ISOs, and say, "glance at these - see his focus on x? No semantics talk at all, all five!"
You could say "I have stayed up all night for ten Christmasses in a row, and he hasn't shown up, that's why I say he's not real."
Instead you throw confirmation bias in my face? I can't figure out how to apply my definition of confirmation bias to all this - if I have a logical flaw, I think it's called something different?
Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:19 pm
So, unsupported meta and a throwaway finisher sentence. I'm not really buying it, tutes.
Not sure why are you calling it unsupported. I have seen around 5 games where Marmot was Mafia prior to this game. You are confirmation biasing.
I mean, I have no way of confirming whether you have a great memory of everyone's playstyle in every game, or if you are making it up, unless I do an exhaustive search of Marmot's past. Then, when I find a scum game where Marmot was semantics-arguing, you can just say "*shrug* well I meant the ones he's not" and my time will turn out to be not well spent.
That's not confirmation bias. That's how I view most meta arguments when they're unsupported.
That is literally confirmation bias. "It is not resourceful of me to confirm your claims of your understanding of Marmot's meta, therefore I shall default to assume that you're lying about something."
It is absurd to think that it would be correct of me to go over Marmot's ISOs in past games myself and quote non-semantics posts to prove my read that I believe he is non-semantic as mafia. You want me to bring you proof of me claiming that something does not exist - that is ridiculous. It's like I said Santa Claus isn't real and you said "Prove Santa Claus isn't real".
You're trying to complicate things. It's not an absurd idea for you to just grab some links to Marmot scum game ISOs, and say, "glance at these - see his focus on x? No semantics talk at all, all five!"
You could say "I have stayed up all night for ten Christmasses in a row, and he hasn't shown up, that's why I say he's not real."
Instead you throw confirmation bias in my face? I can't figure out how to apply my definition of confirmation bias to all this - if I have a logical flaw, I think it's called something different?
Maybe it's called something different I don't know. I'm not going to put the effort to quote Marmot's posts - that is unresourceful and a waste of my time. It is up to you to decide if I'd lie about my perception of someone's meta, I'm not going to jump through hoops and loops to please your requests to put a lot of effort into something for miniscule results (you believing that i believe my in my perception of marmot's scum meta).
Everyone's reasons for scumreading me are bad. It would be pro-town if people started accepting that they can't read me and listen to the people who can. Nanook and Alison have the biggest accuracy in reading me considering the amount of games they have played with me (a lot). Listen to them instead of being wrong and misyeeting me (a town) game after game after game after game, please. Although the same people didn't necessarily misyeet me previously, from my experience this will be my 4th town game in a row where I get a tremendous amount of scumreads for absurd reasons despite me being obvious town.
tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:47 pmYou were wrong on my alignment in that one game we played together so I'm not sure why do you think that you suddenly figured out how to not be wrong on me.
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:28 pm
Dizzy asked about the Dizzy TR too and Tutuu hasn’t answered yet. This has been noted.
Has tutuu been back in the thread since?
I believe that this might be sort of scummy from Long Con, as (I believe) he ignored some of the stuff happening earlier, and what he pointed out here is true, but it's also something wolves do. Point out obvious truths / misunderstanding in naked and discrete posts like this.
well I clearly missed it :P
Irrelevant to my point, I believe it was obvious for everyone else. If I am town and Long Con is scum that post was aimed to make me townread him. If you are town, and I was in your shoes, I would think the same towards me (me in your shoes) (suspecting Long Con for that).
Does anyone know if Tutuu is the type to think of the game from an outsiders perspective a lot (i.e. consider how the game looks without their TMI on themselves)? I know some people do this all the time, but many others never do unless they need to (i.e. when they are wolf and need to continually imagine they are town). I am curious about the line "If I am town...", is that something Tutuu would say as town?
tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:15 pm
Everyone's reasons for scumreading me are bad. It would be pro-town if people started accepting that they can't read me and listen to the people who can. Nanook and Alison have the biggest accuracy in reading me considering the amount of games they have played with me (a lot). Listen to them instead of being wrong and misyeeting me (a town) game after game after game after game, please. Although the same people didn't necessarily misyeet me previously, from my experience this will be my 4th town game in a row where I get a tremendous amount of scumreads for absurd reasons despite me being obvious town.
Do you really think you should be obvious town now? Why? And why do you think so many people are doubting then?
I don't think the responsibility lies solely on everyone else here. I'm trying to read you, and I'm town. I'm still unsure. And I have never been wrong on you before, and in those other games you were obvious town to me almost from the get go.
Have you been regularly misyeeted lately? I've never seen that happen.
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:19 pmDoes anyone know if Tutuu is the type to think of the game from an outsiders perspective a lot (i.e. consider how the game looks without their TMI on themselves)? I know some people do this all the time, but many others never do unless they need to (i.e. when they are wolf and need to continually imagine they are town). I am curious about the line "If I am town...", is that something Tutuu would say as town?
Yeah, she would. In fact, she may even be likelier to say it as town than scum, cause I think scum are generally more careful with their wording. All in all not very AI imo.
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:19 pmDoes anyone know if Tutuu is the type to think of the game from an outsiders perspective a lot (i.e. consider how the game looks without their TMI on themselves)? I know some people do this all the time, but many others never do unless they need to (i.e. when they are wolf and need to continually imagine they are town). I am curious about the line "If I am town...", is that something Tutuu would say as town?
Yeah, she would. In fact, she may even be likelier to say it as town than scum, cause I think scum are generally more careful with their wording. All in all not very AI imo.
Okay, good to know. I've just seen that slip before (from Alana in the 80's game actually), and so when I saw it here, it piqued my interest (and Tutuu strikes me as very in-the-moment, so it seemed weird that she was thinking from a 3rd-party perspective like that). If this is not unusual for her though, it is probably NAI.
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:24 pmOkay, good to know. I've just seen that slip before (from Alana in the 80's game actually), and so when I saw it here, it piqued my interest (and Tutuu strikes me as very in-the-moment, so it seemed weird that she was thinking from a 3rd-party perspective like that). If this is not unusual for her though, it is probably NAI.
I mean, I don't know if it's unusual or not. It's not like I can point to game a, b and c and have receipts. I'm just careful with language details like that in general, cause I think they aren't very reliable.
I've several times started to write a post working towards a conclusion on alignment, and then started arguing the other side in my head, and then deleted the whole post because I still don't feel I have enough info. So that's cool.
But if we take it for granted I'm still unsure - I think Sean is most likely town. I like his analyses and the way he kind of brushed off Epi without being too bothered. He seems to be looking for scum. I buy it.
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:32 pm
I've several times started to write a post working towards a conclusion on alignment, and then started arguing the other side in my head, and then deleted the whole post because I still don't feel I have enough info. So that's cool.
But if we take it for granted I'm still unsure - I think Sean is most likely town. I like his analyses and the way he kind of brushed off Epi without being too bothered. He seems to be looking for scum. I buy it.
I'd love to hear more about your read on me when you clarify your thoughts. Especially if you have arguments on why I might be scum, since it is easier to find the alignment in someone's thoughts when I am not wary of being buddied by them.
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:44 pmI'd love to hear more about your read on me when you clarify your thoughts. Especially if you have arguments on why I might be scum, since it is easier to find the alignment in someone's thoughts when I am not wary of being buddied by them.
I'd mostly just that I don't know, and I think you're capable of coming across fine regardless of alignment. Also, when I was thinking about your handling with Epi's pushing, I recall you were pretty aggressive and didn't let things slide as town last game, so I could argue the side of expecting you to be more confrontational with Epi. (I remember I thought you were scum for sure after I had died, but that was because you were so poorly positioned with how the flips had been). But I don't know, it's a dangerous thing to expect certain behaviors out of people, and I really don't know you well. What do you think? How would you react to Epi's push as town versus scum? Do you think there would be any difference?
tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:15 pm
Everyone's reasons for scumreading me are bad. It would be pro-town if people started accepting that they can't read me and listen to the people who can. Nanook and Alison have the biggest accuracy in reading me considering the amount of games they have played with me (a lot). Listen to them instead of being wrong and misyeeting me (a town) game after game after game after game, please. Although the same people didn't necessarily misyeet me previously, from my experience this will be my 4th town game in a row where I get a tremendous amount of scumreads for absurd reasons despite me being obvious town.
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:00 am
The tonal shift is the /only/ thing about it that’s town. Tutuu’s posts are probably rand wolf from a player of her caliber but just the sun of it is undeniable
Linki: jesus don’t everyone change the subject all at once
Marmot I’m town which means I don’t care which means please carry me
Um. The tonal shift is what made me suspect or rather just thrown off in the first place. What do you mean that her posts are rand wolf from a player of her caliber? Why is tonal shift town?
eh. caliber is a bad word. I don't know exactly how to phrase this. If Tutuu were Alison, I would chop her. I don't want to focus on this but really, wolves aren't going to do something like that tonal shift.
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:44 pmI'd love to hear more about your read on me when you clarify your thoughts. Especially if you have arguments on why I might be scum, since it is easier to find the alignment in someone's thoughts when I am not wary of being buddied by them.
I'd mostly just that I don't know, and I think you're capable of coming across fine regardless of alignment. Also, when I was thinking about your handling with Epi's pushing, I recall you were pretty aggressive and didn't let things slide as town last game, so I could argue the side of expecting you to be more confrontational with Epi. (I remember I thought you were scum for sure after I had died, but that was because you were so poorly positioned with how the flips had been). But I don't know, it's a dangerous thing to expect certain behaviors out of people, and I really don't know you well. What do you think? How would you react to Epi's push as town versus scum? Do you think there would be any difference?
I think a lot of it would depend on how I am choosing to play. Since this is my first game on a new forum, I am playing a little different than I would have if this was a game on MafC. As such, I think if I would have randed scum here, I would play similarly to the one scum game I have played, in which I confronted most challenges to try to argue my way out of scumreads.
However, since Epi's read on me/Tutuu didn't involve a lot to argue against, scum!me perhaps wouldn't have tried to argue my way out of it, I think I would have ignored it though. I know I would have been scared getting called out that quickly (I don't have a lot of experience as scum, and I remember that D1 was MUCH harder than the rest of the game), so I don't know if I would have been able to brush it off as easily as I did... even though I think brushing it off would have probably been the best play.
Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:00 pm
To be fair, I'm the one hounding tutuu, and that is an Alison strategy you've quoted.
What? You accused her of smearing you.
Yes, but her smears have been in response to my accusations. As in, she feels like an unwilling participant in this thunderdome.
Yea, this is ridiculous. You were the first one to scumread me. Because that's what you did. Only one of us can scumread the other one first. After this fact, I can't go back in time and make it so you didn't scumread me first. Human communication isn't simultaneous (both people talking at the same time), they take turns talking.
I don't understand, what are you calling ridiculous??
Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:00 pm
To be fair, I'm the one hounding tutuu, and that is an Alison strategy you've quoted.
What? You accused her of smearing you.
Yes, but her smears have been in response to my accusations. As in, she feels like an unwilling participant in this thunderdome.
Yea, this is ridiculous. You were the first one to scumread me. Because that's what you did. Only one of us can scumread the other one first. After this fact, I can't go back in time and make it so you didn't scumread me first. Human communication isn't simultaneous (both people talking at the same time), they take turns talking.
I don't understand, what are you calling ridiculous??
I think she was agreeing with you, and calling me ridiculous.
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:44 pmI'd love to hear more about your read on me when you clarify your thoughts. Especially if you have arguments on why I might be scum, since it is easier to find the alignment in someone's thoughts when I am not wary of being buddied by them.
I'd mostly just that I don't know, and I think you're capable of coming across fine regardless of alignment. Also, when I was thinking about your handling with Epi's pushing, I recall you were pretty aggressive and didn't let things slide as town last game, so I could argue the side of expecting you to be more confrontational with Epi. (I remember I thought you were scum for sure after I had died, but that was because you were so poorly positioned with how the flips had been). But I don't know, it's a dangerous thing to expect certain behaviors out of people, and I really don't know you well. What do you think? How would you react to Epi's push as town versus scum? Do you think there would be any difference?
I think a lot of it would depend on how I am choosing to play. Since this is my first game on a new forum, I am playing a little different than I would have if this was a game on MafC. As such, I think if I would have randed scum here, I would play similarly to the one scum game I have played, in which I confronted most challenges to try to argue my way out of scumreads.
However, since Epi's read on me/Tutuu didn't involve a lot to argue against, scum!me perhaps wouldn't have tried to argue my way out of it, I think I would have ignored it though. I know I would have been scared getting called out that quickly (I don't have a lot of experience as scum, and I remember that D1 was MUCH harder than the rest of the game), so I don't know if I would have been able to brush it off as easily as I did... even though I think brushing it off would have probably been the best play.
How much do you choose how to play? I don't usually make a conscious choice on how I'm going to play, I just say things that my mind says to say. I mean, I did do the one rhyming game, and some other shtick recently, but overall I just play.
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:12 am
Nvm grogu hasn’t posted yet I’m flipping to them
Always gonna kill zero posters D1 if I don’t have a confident scum read
Lame. It's a very meh yeet if they flip town, and also a meh yeet if the flip scum (except yay cause scum).
I didn't know you liked the yeet lurkers on D1 strategy.
I think we should aim higher, and the no activity may not be a problem for the rest of the day, depending.
I would like to hear who you've taken our of your PoE so far and why.
Do you have a strong scumread I should be sheeping then
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:44 pmI'd love to hear more about your read on me when you clarify your thoughts. Especially if you have arguments on why I might be scum, since it is easier to find the alignment in someone's thoughts when I am not wary of being buddied by them.
I'd mostly just that I don't know, and I think you're capable of coming across fine regardless of alignment. Also, when I was thinking about your handling with Epi's pushing, I recall you were pretty aggressive and didn't let things slide as town last game, so I could argue the side of expecting you to be more confrontational with Epi. (I remember I thought you were scum for sure after I had died, but that was because you were so poorly positioned with how the flips had been). But I don't know, it's a dangerous thing to expect certain behaviors out of people, and I really don't know you well. What do you think? How would you react to Epi's push as town versus scum? Do you think there would be any difference?
I think a lot of it would depend on how I am choosing to play. Since this is my first game on a new forum, I am playing a little different than I would have if this was a game on MafC. As such, I think if I would have randed scum here, I would play similarly to the one scum game I have played, in which I confronted most challenges to try to argue my way out of scumreads.
However, since Epi's read on me/Tutuu didn't involve a lot to argue against, scum!me perhaps wouldn't have tried to argue my way out of it, I think I would have ignored it though. I know I would have been scared getting called out that quickly (I don't have a lot of experience as scum, and I remember that D1 was MUCH harder than the rest of the game), so I don't know if I would have been able to brush it off as easily as I did... even though I think brushing it off would have probably been the best play.
How much do you choose how to play? I don't usually make a conscious choice on how I'm going to play, I just say things that my mind says to say. I mean, I did do the one rhyming game, and some other shtick recently, but overall I just play.
I am relatively new, and one thing I noticed early on is over-reliance on meta (this might be an issue with my home forum, but also just in general?), so I made a commitment early on to consciously change my playstyle up sometimes so that people cannot meta-read me. Originally, my plan was to change playstyles after every scum game (because I wanted to have a few games to polish a specific playstyle a bit before moving on, so I could learn the goods and the bads for different styles, and in general you expect to have a few town games in between each scum game). If I was in my home forum, I would have kept that up, but I was playing a style that had a lot of anti-town and open-wolf elements to it, and I didn't want to play that in a new forum, so I am trying to play more similarly to my first meta right now.
So I choose how to play a lot... granted I have found it hard to get rid of old habits completely, so my playstyles do not always look as different from each other as I think they will.
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:54 pmDo you have a strong scumread I should be sheeping then
I don’t
No, I'm waiting for someone to sheep myself. Or that is what I'm doing at the moment. =p
Then don’t give me shit for parking on a zero poster
Yes, because it's a yeet that doesn't yield much, and a parked vote that doesn't yield much either. But at the same time, whatever, do what you want etc. I know you will anyway lol
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Hi guys. I told Seanzie yesterday that I would elaborate on my suspicions but I decided I will not. Reason is because I can't explain them with words, I just remember how the players felt as a whole after I interacted with them, so I'm gonna wait before providing solid reads that wolves can use to determine whether or not I'm a NK candidate.
Guillotine wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:47 pm
Hi guys. I told Seanzie yesterday that I would elaborate on my suspicions but I decided I will not. Reason is because I can't explain them with words, I just remember how the players felt as a whole after I interacted with them, so I'm gonna wait before providing solid reads that wolves can use to determine whether or not I'm a NK candidate.
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