Fargo Mafia [Game Ends]

[TonyStarkPrime]

if i start town reading michelle for VVVing ted will anyone accuse me of buddying

[TonyStarkPrime]

And Ving Al too wow

[staypositivefriend]

hi. i'm going to parse through some ISOs tomorrow and track peoples progressions on Marmot - that would be a more effective use of my time than doing spew analysis that sloonei/jagged/etc have already done a good job at.

i feel comfortable about the state of the game, and i'm not going to feel otherwise until i am given a reason to. it's good to be vigilant and it's good to triple check the people you have in your towncore, but the gamestate is in a healthy space for the village right now by all observable signs

PS: i might have exaggerated my ability to clear myself based on a misunderstanding of how my role works. i am still capable of obvious towning myself. it probably won't be today.

[Michelle]

Eod 1 VC

Spoiler: show

Eod 1 VC
Look, there is only one way this can go

Poll ended at Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:00 am

AL_sama

4

16% Voters: falcon45ca, Long Con, Strawhenge, AlisonAlison

0

No votes Voters: NoneBoKnows

1

4% Voters: JustplayingitcoolDom

0

No votes Voters: NoneEsooa

0

No votes Voters: Nonefalcon45ca

0

No votes Voters: Nonefingersplints

0

No votes Voters: NoneJaggedJimmyJay

0

No votes Voters: NoneJustplayingitcool

1

4% Voters: OddmertaKZA

0

No votes Voters: NoneLong Con

0

No votes Voters: NoneMacDougall

1

4% Voters: MarmotMarmot

9

36% Voters: Hally, tedxtr, JaggedJimmyJay, Sloonei, Michelle, staypositivefriend, MacDougall, KZA, EsooaMichelle

0

No votes Voters: NoneNANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME

0

No votes Voters: NoneOddmerta

0

No votes Voters: NoneSloonei

0

No votes Voters: Nonestaypositivefriend

0

No votes Voters: NoneStrawhenge

0

No votes Voters: Nonetedxtr

3

12% Voters: BoKnows, AL_sama, TonyStarkPrimeTonyStarkPrime

2

8% Voters: fingersplints, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOMEtutuu

0

No votes Voters: NoneUnvote

0

No votes Voters: NoneNo Elimination

0

No votes Voters: NoneIs one of them the "hard way"? (Host/Dead/Non)

4

16% Voters: nutella, Epignosis, novaselinenever, tutuu Total votes: 25

[Sloonei]

i believe your entire argument is flawed

me not reacting to it = the argument wasn't enough to change my mind with a previous stated town lean on marmot

and then kza is mentioned again, i say "i could go there"

you're blowing it out of proportion for no reason and i don't see how you think the behaviour is questionable at all.

First of all RE: the bolded and underlined:

with hindsight i can see how it looks weird, but my thought process didn't emerge from that one post - hope that makes sense

So,

Why did you not say any of this at the time? You initiated a conversation about Marmot, specifically requested information about a read on him, and then did nothing when you got a response. Later on you downplayed the case against Marmot and then repeatedly complained that no one was giving you clear reasons to suspect Marmot. But when you got that first argument for Marmot to be scum you did nothing. You didn't argue with Alison to try to sway her off her read, despite having just ISO'd Marmot and come to a town read, as you say. I question your entire progression on Marmot because it does not actually look like you were invested in reading him or challenging the reads that other people had on him.

[staypositivefriend]

tier 3: ehhhh
spf
jpic
nanook
bk
lc
Michelle

tier 4:
finger
kza
al
ted

unr: dom (but I think more likely wolf for reasons)

Let's talk about these tiers. Why are spf and bo stuck in ehhhh? A few minutes ago you said bo was probably town. SPF is a popular town read.

Why is nanook in tier 3 rather than tier 4? Why is fingersplints in tier 4 rather than tier 3? Why is Dom "more likely wolf"?
And lastly, have you given any consideration to how any of these folks would fit on either of the hypothetical teams?

the difference between tier 3 and tier 4 is not particuarly well thought out. I think Nanook is playing slightly in his town profile more here, especially in a multiball game. I generally expect mafia nanook to try to keep a hand on the wheel a bit more, and in a multiball game I think I'd expect that even more. As I don't see that, that's enough to raise him above a fair amount of the crowd. I just read Mac's iso and he said that he thought Bo was polarising or something. IDK. He's probably town. I would have had him in tier 4 before. SPF is at the top of tier 3 but I consider tier 1 and 2 to be what would colloquially be towncore (frankly I don't get all the reads there but okay) and SPF hasn't done enough to justify this assertion. I have done next to zero work on finger and honestly can't keep them and straw straight but my general impression is they fit on either team decently (I'm leaning towards not marmot though). Could be tier 3 but probably not higher than LC at least. I've thought about teams a bit but seeing as we have no information on one it's not a top priority. But people who I think are cleared from being teamed with marmot get boosts.

i am doubtful about these reads being real

[TonyStarkPrime]

why

[tedxtr]

if I didn't question / elaborate on my discussion with alison and on her point - doesn't that entail I disagreed?

that seems like a rudimentary thing

[Sloonei]

TonyStarkPrime says he has trouble keeping Strawhenge and fingersplints straight. He lists Strawhenge in Tier 2 as a comfortable town read. He lists fingersplints in his bottom tier of primary suspects.

[TonyStarkPrime]

TonyStarkPrime says he has trouble keeping Strawhenge and fingersplints straight. He lists Strawhenge in Tier 2 as a comfortable town read. He lists fingersplints in his bottom tier of primary suspects.

yes

[tedxtr]

i believe your entire argument is flawed

me not reacting to it = the argument wasn't enough to change my mind with a previous stated town lean on marmot

and then kza is mentioned again, i say "i could go there"

you're blowing it out of proportion for no reason and i don't see how you think the behaviour is questionable at all.

First of all RE: the bolded and underlined:

with hindsight i can see how it looks weird, but my thought process didn't emerge from that one post - hope that makes sense

So,

Why did you not say any of this at the time? You initiated a conversation about Marmot, specifically requested information about a read on him, and then did nothing when you got a response. Later on you downplayed the case against Marmot and then repeatedly complained that no one was giving you clear reasons to suspect Marmot. But when you got that first argument for Marmot to be scum you did nothing. You didn't argue with Alison to try to sway her off her read, despite having just ISO'd Marmot and come to a town read, as you say. I question your entire progression on Marmot because it does not actually look like you were invested in reading him or challenging the reads that other people had on him.

i didn't think it was a strong argument

how is this unreasonable? you think that argument holds any water after i've just finished an iso on him?

idgi

[TonyStarkPrime]

that's because I have stolen this information from others

[TonyStarkPrime]

and Straw is the one who town derped

[tedxtr]

You didn't argue with Alison to try to sway her off her read, despite having just ISO'd Marmot and come to a town read, as you say.

Alison is as tough as a rock and I believed it was futile to change her view when she had a singular reason for marmot being scum, i didn't feel like it needed attention

your problem being i didn't attempt to tell everyone "no, Marmot is town!"

i think you're making a lot of assumptions that just don't work:

>for me
>in this context

[staypositivefriend]

why

the reasoning that you gave felt more like it was from a wolf that was making up villagery sounding reasons off of the top of their head moreso than it felt like a villager who was critically evaluating the game. i know that sounds vague, but you gave a villager lean on nanook that was based on meta. you gave a townlean on boknows because "he's probably town". and selfishly, i am doubtful that you would say "SPF fits onto either team decently" (even though you say you lean on me not being with marmot) if you had genuinely evaluated the marmot spew. me and marmot are very blatantly unaligned, and i feel that your attempt to keep the option of me/marmot being teamed open could stem from you not wanting to feel boxed in

these are nitpicky points but it is a problem i have with your posts in this game in general - i struggle to believe that your reads have conviction. your reads ~make sense~ and they are logical, but they don't feel real. shrug.

[Sloonei]

if I didn't question / elaborate on my discussion with alison and on her point - doesn't that entail I disagreed?

that seems like a rudimentary thing

I have a hard time believing this. You had just finished ISOing Marmot. You came to an apparently firm conclusion that he was town. If I'm reading the progression correctly, this ISO is what inspired you to ask Alison for her case in the first place. So up to this point, it looks like you have a read on Marmot that you believe in, and you want to test it out against the reads of those who feel differently than you do.

But then when you asked Alison to explain her read, instead of engaging in a constructive dialogue with her about your reads on Marmot and what differences you saw, you said "got it." What part of "Got it" am I supposed to interpret as "I disagree with this read, Alison"?

[staypositivefriend]

why

the reasoning that you gave felt more like it was from a wolf that was making up villagery sounding reasons off of the top of their head moreso than it felt like a villager who was critically evaluating the game. i know that sounds vague, but you gave a villager lean on nanook that was based on meta. you gave a townlean on boknows because "he's probably town". and selfishly, i am doubtful that you would say "SPF fits onto either team decently" (even though you say you lean on me not being with marmot) if you had genuinely evaluated the marmot spew. me and marmot are very blatantly unaligned, and i feel that your attempt to keep the option of me/marmot being teamed open could stem from you not wanting to feel boxed in

these are nitpicky points but it is a problem i have with your posts in this game in general - i struggle to believe that your reads have conviction. your reads ~make sense~ and they are logical, but they don't feel real. shrug.

wait you said that fingersplint fit on either team decently - not me. you can disregard the last point.

this is what happens when i post at 3:00 AM

[Sloonei]

TonyStarkPrime says he has trouble keeping Strawhenge and fingersplints straight. He lists Strawhenge in Tier 2 as a comfortable town read. He lists fingersplints in his bottom tier of primary suspects.

yes

You think this computes over here?

[TonyStarkPrime]

why

the reasoning that you gave felt more like it was from a wolf that was making up villagery sounding reasons off of the top of their head moreso than it felt like a villager who was critically evaluating the game. i know that sounds vague, but you gave a villager lean on nanook that was based on meta. you gave a townlean on boknows because "he's probably town". and selfishly, i am doubtful that you would say "SPF fits onto either team decently" (even though you say you lean on me not being with marmot) if you had genuinely evaluated the marmot spew. me and marmot are very blatantly unaligned, and i feel that your attempt to keep the option of me/marmot being teamed open could stem from you not wanting to feel boxed in

these are nitpicky points but it is a problem i have with your posts in this game in general - i struggle to believe that your reads have conviction. your reads ~make sense~ and they are logical, but they don't feel real. shrug.

I did not say the bold thing. We talked about Bo earlier. The villager lean on nanook is in fact based on meta. He's not around, what can I say.

[tedxtr]

I still don't get how my progression is unreasonable / what you don't understand about it

hindsight is 20/20 so maybe your thoughts are influenced

[TonyStarkPrime]

are we all going to ignore the fact that michelle just came in here and listed ted as her strongest townread

[TonyStarkPrime]

TonyStarkPrime says he has trouble keeping Strawhenge and fingersplints straight. He lists Strawhenge in Tier 2 as a comfortable town read. He lists fingersplints in his bottom tier of primary suspects.

yes

You think this computes over here?

if finger has also derped -> town let me know

[Alison]

How in the ever loving fuck did you go from "I don't believe Alison's bullshit claim for a second" to "Alison is in tier 1, the mech confirms"

How the ever loving fuck did you arrive at "Sloonei is the only consensus town"

How the ever loving fuck did you arrive at "only Sloonei and TSP are interested in solving"

[Alison]

Both ted and TSP are mafia but we should honestly exe TSP first because his attempts at lying are more offensive to our intelligence.

[tedxtr]

if I didn't question / elaborate on my discussion with alison and on her point - doesn't that entail I disagreed?

that seems like a rudimentary thing

I have a hard time believing this. You had just finished ISOing Marmot. You came to an apparently firm conclusion that he was town. If I'm reading the progression correctly, this ISO is what inspired you to ask Alison for her case in the first place. So up to this point, it looks like you have a read on Marmot that you believe in, and you want to test it out against the reads of those who feel differently than you do.

But then when you asked Alison to explain her read, instead of engaging in a constructive dialogue with her about your reads on Marmot and what differences you saw, you said "got it." What part of "Got it" am I supposed to interpret as "I disagree with this read, Alison"?

Alison is tough to move and it felt like the case was weak, it was a singular reason and it's tough to engage on a point of "this is w/w"

i didn't feel like it needed attention, period. if you can't see it then you're probably pretty tunneled

i don't think in your experience you've NEVER asked someone for their reason, got a weak response (even though you town read that person) and you felt the need to bash on them and change their mind when the case is thin anyway instead of just saying "whatever, moving on"

[TonyStarkPrime]

How in the ever loving fuck did you go from "I don't believe Alison's bullshit claim for a second" to "Alison is in tier 1, the mech confirms"

How the ever loving fuck did you arrive at "Sloonei is the only consensus town"

How the ever loving fuck did you arrive at "only Sloonei and TSP are interested in solving"

the first thing involves the setup "best reasons to consider town" which is a different question and there are /very/ good reasons to consider you town
the second one of these things I explained
the third thing is provocative

[Justplayingitcool]

Morning, RIP Jay

I read Ted's Iso, and looking at the confidence he told me he deserves a town read I think he is town, except I am wrong but I don't want to tinfoil.

So i gave
VVV
Ted
V
Sloonei
Al
Bo
Probably wolfing TSP

These reads are related to the parts of the game i read, so don't expect me to have perfect reads.

Work time screwed me so cya after

What was towny about ted? On day 1 i had reasons to townread him as well so I'm wondering what it was he said that made you draw this conclusion?

[tedxtr]

Sloonei, in this entire time you've been playing mafia, have you never

>had a different read from someone
>ask them for their read on someone
>they reply with an underwhelming reason / hard to talk about / useless to talk about
>you moved on because it is an underwhelming reason and there's nothing to talk about, you agree to disagree

[tedxtr]

like what?

[Justplayingitcool]

And Ving Al too wow

I want to say it’s kinda towny from michelle? Im trying to remember what they were like in GoC

[TonyStarkPrime]

I mean I'm pretty sure drive by VVV read on ted is something very close to the towniest thing anyone could have done itt

[tedxtr]

I read Ted's Iso, and looking at the confidence he told me he deserves a town read I think he is town, except I am wrong but I don't want to tinfoil.

with the risk of changing your mind, why do you think I wouldn't do this as a mafia?

[TonyStarkPrime]

ok I was wrong on michelle she's topping tier three now

[Oddmerta]

[VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

[Justplayingitcool]

How often does a wolf go in the game thread and starts town reading two of the most consensus suspicious people with no to little explanation?

[Justplayingitcool]

My answer is it’s pretty rare i think

[tedxtr]

"so the reason marmot is wolf is because this interaction is w/w"

like wtf do you expect me to say to that

[TonyStarkPrime]

If you aren't voring ted today I will scum read you

[VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

caught one

[Justplayingitcool]

lol

[Esooa]

Both ted and TSP are mafia but we should honestly exe TSP first because his attempts at lying are more offensive to our intelligence.

lmao

[TonyStarkPrime]

it's a joke alison if you say one thing about tsp trying to chop mech confirmed town I will I swear light a can of dr pepper on fire

[tedxtr]

If you aren't voring ted today I will scum read you

[VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

caught one

he changed his read because i'm town

u mad?

[tedxtr]

[VOTE: TSP ] aubergine

bad move to vote for me br0

[Sloonei]

Alison is tough to move and it felt like the case was weak, it was a singular reason and it's tough to engage on a point of "this is w/w"

You do not need to engage with Alison for the purpose of dissuading her. But I would expect you to engage on some level just to have a dialogue about Marmot and develop your own read, at the very least. I am struggling to believe this argument about Alison, that she is "tough" and unlikely to move. Why is that relevant? I never said you needed to convince Alison of anything. My objection is simply that you appeared disinterested in talking about Marmot yourself. And I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of Alison anyway. Alison is a player who is capable of adapting to changing situations and new information. If you talk to her about a read, she will engage with you. At least that has been the case in my experience.

i didn't feel like it needed attention, period. if you can't see it then you're probably pretty tunneled

I don't believe this. If you feel it didn't need attention, you then why did you initiate the conversation about Marmot in the first place? If you feel it didn't need attention, then you were either doing a disservice to your newest townread (Marmot), or you didn't care about the ISO you had just completed on him.

i don't think in your experience you've NEVER asked someone for their reason, got a weak response (even though you town read that person) and you felt the need to bash on them and change their mind when the case is thin anyway instead of just saying "whatever, moving on"

I have never in my experience asked a person why they were suspicious of a player I had a substantial town read on, then responded to their case by saying "Got it" and ending the conversation there.

------

I am not sure either of us is going to get anything else out of this dialogue, so I would advise that we cut it off there. If you genuinely think you can present this to me in a way that will change my mind at present, feel free to continue to try. But this is not a misunderstanding on my part. I understand you perfectly well. I simply do not believe you, so that is what you are up against. I think, as far as this dialogue goes, we are better served if we ask @everyone else to weigh in and give us their thoughts.
For you, if you are town then your best course of action will be to convince us all that somebody else is more deserving of our votes than you.

[TonyStarkPrime]

terrible fake distancing attempt I'm already cleared from the team you're on

[Oddmerta]

Allison wants TSP, I help

[Sloonei]

"so the reason marmot is wolf is because this interaction is w/w"

like wtf do you expect me to say to that

Whatever you please. My objection is that I do not think "Got it" means "I disagree with this read."

[Sloonei]

Morning, RIP Jay

I read Ted's Iso, and looking at the confidence he told me he deserves a town read I think he is town, except I am wrong but I don't want to tinfoil.

So i gave
VVV
Ted
V
Sloonei
Al
Bo
Probably wolfing TSP

These reads are related to the parts of the game i read, so don't expect me to have perfect reads.

Work time screwed me so cya after

Hey Michelle, care to read my conversation with Ted over the last couple pages?

[TonyStarkPrime]

see, i get to live past d1 and i'm already lock cleared

hm

[tedxtr]

terrible fake distancing attempt I'm already cleared from the team you're on

i'm a villager

you've played yourself