Team Fortress Mafia [END]

[Gavial]

Though, I suppose being wrong is game throwing, just not intentionally. Many players are currently game throwing.

[NotAnAxehole]

NAA might have gamethrown in the past, but that's not really relevant if someone else is gamethrowing now, just because NAA is the one bringing it up.

I mean, there's not much point in engaging LimeCoke seriously on this topic, the game he's referring to (philosophy) I only voted mafia at EOD. And only pushed mafia at EOD. I mean, you know because you were in that game and my Poe was almost entirely correct. Lime coke is just trolling himself over that game where I couldn't hit a vigi shot. Being wrong is game throwing.

You've thrown in several other games as well. I'm not the only one saying this. Quit being delusional.

Also, I didn't scum read you actually, I just wanted you to exit your scum range because you're one dimensional

[Marmot]

@Marmot
Don’t you think TSP could get away with that?
I think he could tbh and if you are indeed actually wolf that omega bussed you can probably tell him about it and let him know I thought of it for him.

Get away with what?

[Gavial]

Not game throwing but with all this conflictiob there are many players who are wrong.

[Gavial]

@Marmot
Don’t you think TSP could get away with that?
I think he could tbh and if you are indeed actually wolf that omega bussed you can probably tell him about it and let him know I thought of it for him.

Get away with what?

Well Marmot you remember what I said about TSP don’t you?
You tell me buddy.

[Marmot]

@Marmot
Don’t you think TSP could get away with that?
I think he could tbh and if you are indeed actually wolf that omega bussed you can probably tell him about it and let him know I thought of it for him.

Get away with what?

Well Marmot you remember what I said about TSP don’t you?
You tell me buddy.

No I don't remember what you said about TSP, can you remind me?

[falcon45ca]

4 copies are Maf, which means there are no duplicate Maf roles...Town has a copy for each Maf role

It says there are 18 copies total, not 9, so I think that means there technically can be 2 of the same role on the mafia team.

Like it doesn't explicitly say that the mafia can't have 2 unique roles, though it can be inferred. I'm just not sure which is correct.

OK, it's a possibility...tho I can't say I've ever played a game where Maf have duplicate power roles...have you? Especially with only 4

I think there's reason to believe that it is randomized such that mafia can have two copies. Otherwise, the Red Engineer would be confirmed town right now because sabie was the Blue Engineer. The duality of it would be too pro-town I think.

Hmmm...we don't have a Red Engineer claim, do we?

[Gavial]

Yeah hmm don’t wanna Angel shoot but if TSP is Mafia Sniper, Falcon outed himself.
I’ll avoid elaborate further RN.

[Marmot]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

[Gavial]

Think I’ll avoid it period but yeah just saying.

[NotAnAxehole]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

This isn't universally accepted

[Lime Coke]

NAA might have gamethrown in the past, but that's not really relevant if someone else is gamethrowing now, just because NAA is the one bringing it up.

I mean, there's not much point in engaging LimeCoke seriously on this topic, the game he's referring to (philosophy) I only voted mafia at EOD. And only pushed mafia at EOD. I mean, you know because you were in that game and my Poe was almost entirely correct. Lime coke is just trolling himself over that game where I couldn't hit a vigi shot. Being wrong is game throwing.

You've thrown in several other games as well. I'm not the only one saying this. Quit being delusional.

Also, I didn't scum read you actually, I just wanted you to exit your scum range because you're one dimensional

I literally just won a game as scum? How is that one dimensional?

[Gavial]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

Let’s say I play a game with Jaland.
(You don’t know who that is but hang with me here.)
Let’s say I got 1-Shot Vigilante
And I think his hammer on mafia EoD1 and his cop claim to get mafia yeeted day 2 was fake (true story btw lol.)

Basically think Jaland is a deep wolf (which he was lol.)
If I shot Jaland while he’s in that position is that considered game throwing?

[Marmot]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

This isn't universally accepted

If I want to throw something, I have to wind my arm back and release it in a forward motion. Very intentional.

I could achieve the same outcome by accidentally spilling something forward out of my hands.


If there isn't intention and it's just incidental, we should call it game-spilling.

[Gavial]

Also about that, Jaland won that game, won a 1v9 or 1v7 I don’t remember.
Anyway he got temporary banned for 3 months because of how insane that Buss is and he also I think 1v1’ed a Moderator that was playing F3.

[NotAnAxehole]

NAA might have gamethrown in the past, but that's not really relevant if someone else is gamethrowing now, just because NAA is the one bringing it up.

I mean, there's not much point in engaging LimeCoke seriously on this topic, the game he's referring to (philosophy) I only voted mafia at EOD. And only pushed mafia at EOD. I mean, you know because you were in that game and my Poe was almost entirely correct. Lime coke is just trolling himself over that game where I couldn't hit a vigi shot. Being wrong is game throwing.

You've thrown in several other games as well. I'm not the only one saying this. Quit being delusional.

Also, I didn't scum read you actually, I just wanted you to exit your scum range because you're one dimensional

I literally just won a game as scum? How is that one dimensional?

Yeah, people probably tiptoed around your blow up as town routine.

[Gavial]

Actually I might have told Marmot about Jaland I don’t remember

[NotAnAxehole]

Even a broken clock is right sometimes

[Gavial]

If this was my homesite and they were still doing mafia, someone might have said Marmot could be pulling the Jaland.

[falcon45ca]

Even a broken clock is right sometimes

Twice a day

[NotAnAxehole]

But yeah, @Lime Coke when you're able to get over a couple of missed vig shots, and realise that the world itself isn't ending, maybe we'll have a real conversation... Someday.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

“ 4 of those copies are part of the mafia faction, the other 14 are town.”
This doesn’t indicate anything.

@Dragon D. Luffy
Can for example 2 Spy’s possibly both role mafia.
Like can mafia both have the role of 2.

Yes.

[Lime Coke]

NAA might have gamethrown in the past, but that's not really relevant if someone else is gamethrowing now, just because NAA is the one bringing it up.

I mean, there's not much point in engaging LimeCoke seriously on this topic, the game he's referring to (philosophy) I only voted mafia at EOD. And only pushed mafia at EOD. I mean, you know because you were in that game and my Poe was almost entirely correct. Lime coke is just trolling himself over that game where I couldn't hit a vigi shot. Being wrong is game throwing.

You've thrown in several other games as well. I'm not the only one saying this. Quit being delusional.

Also, I didn't scum read you actually, I just wanted you to exit your scum range because you're one dimensional

I literally just won a game as scum? How is that one dimensional?

Yeah, people probably tiptoed around your blow up as town routine.

There's literally other several ways to read me and get my alignment, it's not really that hard.

[NotAnAxehole]

NAA might have gamethrown in the past, but that's not really relevant if someone else is gamethrowing now, just because NAA is the one bringing it up.

I mean, there's not much point in engaging LimeCoke seriously on this topic, the game he's referring to (philosophy) I only voted mafia at EOD. And only pushed mafia at EOD. I mean, you know because you were in that game and my Poe was almost entirely correct. Lime coke is just trolling himself over that game where I couldn't hit a vigi shot. Being wrong is game throwing.

You've thrown in several other games as well. I'm not the only one saying this. Quit being delusional.

Also, I didn't scum read you actually, I just wanted you to exit your scum range because you're one dimensional

I literally just won a game as scum? How is that one dimensional?

Yeah, people probably tiptoed around your blow up as town routine.

There's literally other several ways to read me and get my alignment, it's not really that hard.

I mean, that's kind of my point.

[falcon45ca]

“ 4 of those copies are part of the mafia faction, the other 14 are town.”
This doesn’t indicate anything.

@Dragon D. Luffy
Can for example 2 Spy’s possibly both role mafia.
Like can mafia both have the role of 2.

Yes.

Well, will ya look at that

[Lime Coke]

I mean, there's not much point in engaging LimeCoke seriously on this topic, the game he's referring to (philosophy) I only voted mafia at EOD. And only pushed mafia at EOD. I mean, you know because you were in that game and my Poe was almost entirely correct. Lime coke is just trolling himself over that game where I couldn't hit a vigi shot. Being wrong is game throwing.

You've thrown in several other games as well. I'm not the only one saying this. Quit being delusional.

Also, I didn't scum read you actually, I just wanted you to exit your scum range because you're one dimensional

I literally just won a game as scum? How is that one dimensional?

Yeah, people probably tiptoed around your blow up as town routine.

There's literally other several ways to read me and get my alignment, it's not really that hard.

I mean, that's kind of my point.

That's not at all your point.

[Gavial]

“ 4 of those copies are part of the mafia faction, the other 14 are town.”
This doesn’t indicate anything.

@Dragon D. Luffy
Can for example 2 Spy’s possibly both role mafia.
Like can mafia both have the role of 2.

Yes.

@falcon45ca

[NotAnAxehole]

You've thrown in several other games as well. I'm not the only one saying this. Quit being delusional.

Also, I didn't scum read you actually, I just wanted you to exit your scum range because you're one dimensional

I literally just won a game as scum? How is that one dimensional?

Yeah, people probably tiptoed around your blow up as town routine.

There's literally other several ways to read me and get my alignment, it's not really that hard.

I mean, that's kind of my point.

That's not at all your point.

You're right, when I said you're one dimensional, I meant complexe and difficult to read with tons of nuance and no real way to read.

[Gavial]

“ 4 of those copies are part of the mafia faction, the other 14 are town.”
This doesn’t indicate anything.

@Dragon D. Luffy
Can for example 2 Spy’s possibly both role mafia.
Like can mafia both have the role of 2.

Yes.

Well, will ya look at that

Yet you doubted me Falcon.
Shame.

[NotAnAxehole]

We can stop now

[Marmot]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

Let’s say I play a game with Jaland.
(You don’t know who that is but hang with me here.)
Let’s say I got 1-Shot Vigilante
And I think his hammer on mafia EoD1 and his cop claim to get mafia yeeted day 2 was fake (true story btw lol.)

Basically think Jaland is a deep wolf (which he was lol.)
If I shot Jaland while he’s in that position is that considered game throwing?

That's a hero shot, yeah. It's adjacent to game-throwing, but I agree with NAA, it only really counts as throwing if you're wrong.

I disagree with this strategy in general though. Not because I'm the one who red-checked sabie, but because doing such actively ignores thread evidence that would suggest that the person is more likely to be town, in favor of conspiracy-theorizing/tinfoiling.

There are cases where it's probably fine to shoot said player:

- If there is a consensus among the other players that they might be scum regardless of their claim
- If the gamestate is awful and we're continuing to chop town after town
- probably some other obscure situations

Sure I could be mafia, but I've provided a claim that supports that I might be town, and I would assert that more often than not, truthful hard-claims come from town (there's more town players, and it's always easier to tell the truth)

[Gavial]

@DrWilgy
@MacDougall
@LinearPoint
@Lime Coke
@Dolby
@NotAnAxehole

I want you 6 to remember something very important.
TSP being Mafia Sniper confirms Falcon as Mafia.

[Gavial]

Go to notepads and write it down.

[falcon45ca]

“ 4 of those copies are part of the mafia faction, the other 14 are town.”
This doesn’t indicate anything.

@Dragon D. Luffy
Can for example 2 Spy’s possibly both role mafia.
Like can mafia both have the role of 2.

Yes.

@falcon45ca

I already responded to it

[Gavial]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

Let’s say I play a game with Jaland.
(You don’t know who that is but hang with me here.)
Let’s say I got 1-Shot Vigilante
And I think his hammer on mafia EoD1 and his cop claim to get mafia yeeted day 2 was fake (true story btw lol.)

Basically think Jaland is a deep wolf (which he was lol.)
If I shot Jaland while he’s in that position is that considered game throwing?

That's a hero shot, yeah. It's adjacent to game-throwing, but I agree with NAA, it only really counts as throwing if you're wrong.

I disagree with this strategy in general though. Not because I'm the one who red-checked sabie, but because doing such actively ignores thread evidence that would suggest that the person is more likely to be town, in favor of conspiracy-theorizing/tinfoiling.

There are cases where it's probably fine to shoot said player:

- If there is a consensus among the other players that they might be scum regardless of their claim
- If the gamestate is awful and we're continuing to chop town after town
- probably some other obscure situations

Sure I could be mafia, but I've provided a claim that supports that I might be town, and I would assert that more often than not, truthful hard-claims come from town (there's more town players, and it's always easier to tell the truth)

Gotcha so what your saying is that if I were to shoot you it’s only after wolves keep avoiding yeet and your somehow still alive.

[Gavial]

@Marmot
You wanna watch me tonight buddy see if TSP came and roleblocked me.

[NotAnAxehole]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

Let’s say I play a game with Jaland.
(You don’t know who that is but hang with me here.)
Let’s say I got 1-Shot Vigilante
And I think his hammer on mafia EoD1 and his cop claim to get mafia yeeted day 2 was fake (true story btw lol.)

Basically think Jaland is a deep wolf (which he was lol.)
If I shot Jaland while he’s in that position is that considered game throwing?

That's a hero shot, yeah. It's adjacent to game-throwing, but I agree with NAA, it only really counts as throwing if you're wrong.

I disagree with this strategy in general though. Not because I'm the one who red-checked sabie, but because doing such actively ignores thread evidence that would suggest that the person is more likely to be town, in favor of conspiracy-theorizing/tinfoiling.

There are cases where it's probably fine to shoot said player:

- If there is a consensus among the other players that they might be scum regardless of their claim
- If the gamestate is awful and we're continuing to chop town after town
- probably some other obscure situations

Sure I could be mafia, but I've provided a claim that supports that I might be town, and I would assert that more often than not, truthful hard-claims come from town (there's more town players, and it's always easier to tell the truth)

If hero shots / shots that go against concensus are "game throwing", then hosts shouldn't put Vigs in the set up because people don't actually want other players to have that much influence over the game, and often people are pressured into doing what other people agreed on rather than playing the game themselves.

[Gavial]

We can stop now

Yeah NAA and Lime Coke are never both mafia and are both very likely town.

[NotAnAxehole]

We can stop now

Yeah NAA and Lime Coke are never both mafia and are both very likely town.

[Gavial]

Game-throwing has to have some intentionality imo.

That said, someboday having a read you disagree with or scumreading you when you're town is not game-throwing. That's just how mafia be sometimes.

Let’s say I play a game with Jaland.
(You don’t know who that is but hang with me here.)
Let’s say I got 1-Shot Vigilante
And I think his hammer on mafia EoD1 and his cop claim to get mafia yeeted day 2 was fake (true story btw lol.)

Basically think Jaland is a deep wolf (which he was lol.)
If I shot Jaland while he’s in that position is that considered game throwing?

That's a hero shot, yeah. It's adjacent to game-throwing, but I agree with NAA, it only really counts as throwing if you're wrong.

I disagree with this strategy in general though. Not because I'm the one who red-checked sabie, but because doing such actively ignores thread evidence that would suggest that the person is more likely to be town, in favor of conspiracy-theorizing/tinfoiling.

There are cases where it's probably fine to shoot said player:

- If there is a consensus among the other players that they might be scum regardless of their claim
- If the gamestate is awful and we're continuing to chop town after town
- probably some other obscure situations

Sure I could be mafia, but I've provided a claim that supports that I might be town, and I would assert that more often than not, truthful hard-claims come from town (there's more town players, and it's always easier to tell the truth)

If hero shots / shots that go against concensus are "game throwing", then hosts shouldn't put Vigs in the set up because people don't actually want other players to have that much influence over the game, and often people are pressured into doing what other people agreed on rather than playing the game themselves.

Exactly when I have vigilante (or at least a normal one) I don’t go by what another person says I don’t get manipulated the only allowed to manipulate me is myself so that’s why I make my own decisions under my own discretion.

[Marmot]

If hero shots / shots that go against concensus are "game throwing", then hosts shouldn't put Vigs in the set up because people don't actually want other players to have that much influence over the game, and often people are pressured into doing what other people agreed on rather than playing the game themselves.

You do you, I just think that taking a vig shot against a tinfoil scumread that everyone else thinks is town is more often than not a bad play.

I'm probably being a little egregious in my categorization. It's probably not game-throwing if you think it's the right call. Personally, I think that factoring other players' inputs in is important too.

[Marmot]

Exactly when I have vigilante (or at least a normal one) I don’t go by what another person says I don’t get manipulated the only allowed to manipulate me is myself so that’s why I make my own decisions under my own discretion.

You better be right then.

[NotAnAxehole]

If hero shots / shots that go against concensus are "game throwing", then hosts shouldn't put Vigs in the set up because people don't actually want other players to have that much influence over the game, and often people are pressured into doing what other people agreed on rather than playing the game themselves.

You do you, I just think that taking a vig shot against a tinfoil scumread that everyone else thinks is town is more often than not a bad play.

I'm probably being a little egregious in my categorization. It's probably not game-throwing if you think it's the right call. Personally, I think that factoring other players' inputs in is important too.

Yeah, but arguably any vigi shot that misses is a bad play, the difference is whether or not you screw someone's PoE (which can be wrong as well). Like, yes if you make a hero shot, and miss it's a bad play, if you don't make a hero shot and you're right, you lose the game because other players in the game don't accept your conclusion.

[NotAnAxehole]

Any event that results in a town dead is a misplay. People just tend to not count them if they were voted, or they blame the person who was voted out.

[Guillotine]

Just finished reading that Akemi game and Gavial's play there is identical here.

Meta wins

[VOTE: Gavial] aubergine

[Guillotine]

Figuring out if Gavial was TWTBW or actual scum was tough work, holy shit.

[Guillotine]

Sabie choosing to jump onto Seanzie instead of staying on Gavial now makes sense if Gavial is scum.

[Guillotine]

So my biggest issue right now is I don't have any super solid mafia reads.

I'm back and forth on Gullio, his low tunneling on me is a bit scummy and he's not doing much content wise just volume also there's this weird thing with naa which doesn't seem V/V unless I"m missing something? But, he was also pushing sabie for awhile if i recall correctly and Last phase I pegged him as tunneling towny which seems more right.

I think the LC read on jack has some merit, but with the amount of blocks, protects, eCt out there it isn't solid.

I think most likely mafia are laying low, maybe we've got one who voted to save sabie, but doubt it's more than that, and probably one on her wagon? I need to go backk and look at that lay out.

Also beginning to suspect Falcon given his under the radar playstyle and D1 flipflopping vote then avoidance of wagons.

So im townie because i tunneled Sabie but not for low tunneling you? So i cant be scum for hellbussing Sabie for example?

Well I know i'm civ and your reasoning for tunneling on me is god awful. Which imo is usually something mafia are more prone to do D0/1 since it lets them latch onto something, tunnel, do less gameplay wise, and then when someone misflips it's a meh.

So in theory you could be scum for bussing sabie, but given that it was Day 1, Sabie wasn't outted at that point, and there are only four mafia members hard bussins seems a bit less likely. That isn't to say no mafia members voted for her D1, but voting vs hard pushing is very different.

So I guess you'd be a slight town read? but probably my least confident one.

Im gonna pretend i dont scum read you to engage with you. Boom! That read is gone, the tunnel is vanished.

Sig, why do you think Sabie chose to chop Seanzie instead of chopping Gavial and you who were available wagons at the time?

@sig I'm still waiting on this. You should know by now im not letting this one go unanswered.

[NotAnAxehole]

Sabie choosing to jump onto Seanzie instead of staying on Gavial now makes sense if Gavial is scum.

There were 30 seconds left in the day, and she was about to die... So it's irrelevant, this doesn't take away from your other take on Gavial though.

[Gavial]

If hero shots / shots that go against concensus are "game throwing", then hosts shouldn't put Vigs in the set up because people don't actually want other players to have that much influence over the game, and often people are pressured into doing what other people agreed on rather than playing the game themselves.

You do you, I just think that taking a vig shot against a tinfoil scumread that everyone else thinks is town is more often than not a bad play.

I'm probably being a little egregious in my categorization. It's probably not game-throwing if you think it's the right call. Personally, I think that factoring other players' inputs in is important too.

My initial thought is I’d rather someone just be verbally Townie going into potential late game rather then someone mechanical Townie without verbally Townie.
Plus I also figured if you are town you die anyway or are protected .