GAME OF CHAMPIONS 2021 Endgame (town and 3p win)

[ilario]

Meh maybe tsp is a hit just because I have better reason to tr others

[Paopan]

Yes.
It's probably Belzy tho
The slot is too green

[ilario]

Soup mechanics are so incredibly frustrating to play around

If I learnt anything from this game it’s that

[ilario]

I take back everything I said about this being an easy town w

Anything with soup mechanics should be an easy scum w if anything

[ilario]

I promised to talk some more about my c4 suspicion. It seems he has gained sufficient momentum since last night anyway, but I will still dump my thoughts into the thread.

Something that I feel is sometimes true about mafia members is that they struggle to actively pursue suspicions. It is one thing to name suspects and place votes, but it is another to flesh out reads and have them develop in real time. Making up fake arguments about a person about why they are lying when you know that they are not can be a difficult thing to do, especially when the person you are targeting is capable of being more vocal than you about it. The result is a bunch of stagnant suspicions that fail to take off, with more energy spent arguing (truthfully) about why certain players are town instead of mafia.

I think I see this trend playing out in c4's posts. Observe:

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

The fact that Creature can only bring himself to talk about one thing so far is wolfy.

The fact that he's clearly beenfollowing along live for a reasonable amount of time given how quickly he voted nut makes it wolfier.

The fact that it's a piece of mechanical information also makes it wolfier.

The fact that it's an obviously fake redcheck also makes it wolfier.

Is soup kill a thing?

Derp denied

@Sloonei post

I feel like I shouldn't be the one towncasing myself

Then lemme do it

Creature's strings of posts of talking to himself came off as pure and more drawn out than w!Creature would bother with

[VOTE: Porscha] aubergine

Sup

hey gamer what's poppin

You feel wolfy from a glance

Are you a wolf?

C4, shoot:

Scotty (scummy)

Bo (as KZA wanted)

or

Wilgy (as he requested)

Could totally shoot Scotty

Bo seems to be genuinely enjoying himself and is decently polarized but since both of you know him better do you have specific insights?

Wilgy lolno

Yeah Mac isn't towny lul

Ender townreaders talk to me about Ender pls

[VOTE: Sloonei] aubergine

Where's that spark I saw in RYM 96

i think paopan may be town rn based on his response and my spiritual vote is not on him, just haven't figured out where to go yet

@dyachei what's your read on me rn?

I have an idea of where you can go

Were you paying attention to Sloonei's posting in RYM perchance? It was miles townier than this even with low engagement.

I'm very tempted to just shoot Sloon

Etc.

C4's most substantive Day 1 posts are an exchange with Porscha that lists reasons to suspect her, but never develops in any meaningful way. The rest of c4's Day 1 feels like aimless prodding and asking for direction on who to shoot. I am lacking the full context leading up to his decision to shoot Bo, but based on c4's posts alone I do not find his process to be all that convincing.
The suspects c4 does prod for most of Day 1 are easy options. He starts with Creature, whose playstyle invites suspicion, especially early on. Then he shifts to Porscha, an unfamiliar face with light activity. Then he spends a few posts prodding me with no direction because of my absence/lack of spark. But c4 never actually put real pressure on me. He demanded that I post and then didn't have anything to say to me when I did.

Compare all of this to the amount of time and energy c4 puts into townreading people on Day 1. I am having trouble finding any evidence that he is making a sincere effort to uncover suspects. He steps in to declare town reads every once in a while, and then gropes around listlessly at potential suspects. I'm uninspired by all of this. If c4 is town, I need to see him demonstrate that he is actually trying to develop reads on players.

Finally gonna properly cover this thing.

The actual point you're making and how you're landing at the expectations you have are beyond me.

In terms of the specific pushes you describe,

The Porscha push developed into exactly what it was meant to develop into, which was a wolf read and push, and saying otherwise just looks like word salad. It was literally "this is why Porscha is a wolf" followed by voting Porscha followed by asking people to vote Porscha followed by getting people to vote Porscha. I'm stunned that I have to explain this.
Creature, sure, but we can agree that doesn't mean much on its own.
My push on you was not to pressure you. I voted you and called you a wolf because I thought you were a wolf. Extrapolating more and then saying "But why didn't c4 follow my manual on pressuring players in order to pressure this player he wasn't trying to pressure?" is just disingenuous.

It is true of me in general that I townread more people than I scumread, and villagers have pushed me plenty for it historically, but like, what the fuck is this? Was there a word minimum you were shooting for here or something? It's like every time you almost say a reason I'm a wolf, you stumble, then say, "Hm, I don't know what to write here. Let me add the nearest objective observation and word it dramatically."

Regretting saying this in some amount because your posting has improved a lot and I think you're town.

jpic thoughts on this post?

[Creature]

Soup mechanics are so incredibly frustrating to play around

If I learnt anything from this game it’s that

Wolves can also easily fake green checks on each other

[ilario]

Soup mechanics are so incredibly frustrating to play around

If I learnt anything from this game it’s that

Wolves can also easily fake green checks on each other

There’s so many bs claims and no way to verify them

Next game I play with soup I’m gonna policy anyone who does a claim for no reason other than they’re on their deathbed and it’s 10 mins away from being voted out

[ilario]

Falcons green on mr by far was the worst because mr wasn’t even a wagon

It’s bad regardless of what his alignment is because there’s just no need for it whatsoever it’s just completely wtf to me

[ilario]

C4s later responses to sloonei seem decent

[Creature]

idk now

We can only hope we don't get four town flips from the lynches

[Paopan]

Don't ya worry fellow townies.
I got ya all
I'm confident we can flip 2-3/4 wolves today

[ilario]

C4 and sloonei might be tvt

[Justplayingitcool]

I promised to talk some more about my c4 suspicion. It seems he has gained sufficient momentum since last night anyway, but I will still dump my thoughts into the thread.

Something that I feel is sometimes true about mafia members is that they struggle to actively pursue suspicions. It is one thing to name suspects and place votes, but it is another to flesh out reads and have them develop in real time. Making up fake arguments about a person about why they are lying when you know that they are not can be a difficult thing to do, especially when the person you are targeting is capable of being more vocal than you about it. The result is a bunch of stagnant suspicions that fail to take off, with more energy spent arguing (truthfully) about why certain players are town instead of mafia.

I think I see this trend playing out in c4's posts. Observe:

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

The fact that Creature can only bring himself to talk about one thing so far is wolfy.

The fact that he's clearly beenfollowing along live for a reasonable amount of time given how quickly he voted nut makes it wolfier.

The fact that it's a piece of mechanical information also makes it wolfier.

The fact that it's an obviously fake redcheck also makes it wolfier.

Is soup kill a thing?

Derp denied

@Sloonei post

I feel like I shouldn't be the one towncasing myself

Then lemme do it

Creature's strings of posts of talking to himself came off as pure and more drawn out than w!Creature would bother with

[VOTE: Porscha] aubergine

Sup

hey gamer what's poppin

You feel wolfy from a glance

Are you a wolf?

C4, shoot:

Scotty (scummy)

Bo (as KZA wanted)

or

Wilgy (as he requested)

Could totally shoot Scotty

Bo seems to be genuinely enjoying himself and is decently polarized but since both of you know him better do you have specific insights?

Wilgy lolno

Yeah Mac isn't towny lul

Ender townreaders talk to me about Ender pls

[VOTE: Sloonei] aubergine

Where's that spark I saw in RYM 96

i think paopan may be town rn based on his response and my spiritual vote is not on him, just haven't figured out where to go yet

@dyachei what's your read on me rn?

I have an idea of where you can go

Were you paying attention to Sloonei's posting in RYM perchance? It was miles townier than this even with low engagement.

I'm very tempted to just shoot Sloon

Etc.

C4's most substantive Day 1 posts are an exchange with Porscha that lists reasons to suspect her, but never develops in any meaningful way. The rest of c4's Day 1 feels like aimless prodding and asking for direction on who to shoot. I am lacking the full context leading up to his decision to shoot Bo, but based on c4's posts alone I do not find his process to be all that convincing.
The suspects c4 does prod for most of Day 1 are easy options. He starts with Creature, whose playstyle invites suspicion, especially early on. Then he shifts to Porscha, an unfamiliar face with light activity. Then he spends a few posts prodding me with no direction because of my absence/lack of spark. But c4 never actually put real pressure on me. He demanded that I post and then didn't have anything to say to me when I did.

Compare all of this to the amount of time and energy c4 puts into townreading people on Day 1. I am having trouble finding any evidence that he is making a sincere effort to uncover suspects. He steps in to declare town reads every once in a while, and then gropes around listlessly at potential suspects. I'm uninspired by all of this. If c4 is town, I need to see him demonstrate that he is actually trying to develop reads on players.

Finally gonna properly cover this thing.

The actual point you're making and how you're landing at the expectations you have are beyond me.

In terms of the specific pushes you describe,

The Porscha push developed into exactly what it was meant to develop into, which was a wolf read and push, and saying otherwise just looks like word salad. It was literally "this is why Porscha is a wolf" followed by voting Porscha followed by asking people to vote Porscha followed by getting people to vote Porscha. I'm stunned that I have to explain this.
Creature, sure, but we can agree that doesn't mean much on its own.
My push on you was not to pressure you. I voted you and called you a wolf because I thought you were a wolf. Extrapolating more and then saying "But why didn't c4 follow my manual on pressuring players in order to pressure this player he wasn't trying to pressure?" is just disingenuous.

It is true of me in general that I townread more people than I scumread, and villagers have pushed me plenty for it historically, but like, what the fuck is this? Was there a word minimum you were shooting for here or something? It's like every time you almost say a reason I'm a wolf, you stumble, then say, "Hm, I don't know what to write here. Let me add the nearest objective observation and word it dramatically."

Regretting saying this in some amount because your posting has improved a lot and I think you're town.

jpic thoughts on this post?

I think the response is fine in general, i think he is correct that he is historically scumread for the way he townreads people, but it is worth bearing in mind that he has had a TMI issue in the past. When he was scum, he cased me but immediately backed down when I challenged him. Not sure if he has leveled up his wolf game since then

Last sentence felt appeasing though

[Justplayingitcool]

@ilario

Not sure if you saw my post about the interaction between c4, marmot and dizzy?

[ilario]

Btw if sig is a wolf there’s been bussers on him today, dude has done shit all to stop his wagon

Probably just wanted to use his shot on obv town nutella before he kicked the bucket. If he flips wolf y’all should not clear anyone for pushing a lhf slot

[Justplayingitcool]

It's a travesty people think im more scummy than paopan

[ilario]

@ilario

Not sure if you saw my post about the interaction between c4, marmot and dizzy?

If it’s in the last 10ish pages then nah I’m still catching up

[Justplayingitcool]

@ilario

Not sure if you saw my post about the interaction between c4, marmot and dizzy?

If it’s in the last 10ish pages then nah I’m still catching up

cool, was on the last page

[ilario]

@ilario

Not sure if you saw my post about the interaction between c4, marmot and dizzy?

If it’s in the last 10ish pages then nah I’m still catching up

cool, was on the last page

Kk I’ll get to it eventually

I’m on pg 126 but I gtg sleep though since it’s midnight and I GT be up before 6am again I’ll try to catch up on important stuff by eod


My parting thoughts: Kill sig and guillo to resolve Nutella’s shot and then move on from there. I literally killed a scum and have had all my trs flip town so far so if Nutella was shot by a wolf kp there would be a really good reason as to why she was shot over me and I want that resolved for my reads to progress.

[TonyStarkPrime]

what some people don’t understand is I just once would like to 2K post in a syndi game except I don’t have the energy to outpost the real spammers

[ilario]

Don’t kill wilgy

Probs not hk or 112 either but I’ll rr them both by eod

Honestly I don’t want anyone other than sig or guillo to get elimmed here but oh well that’s just how it goes

[Creature]

nutella, give me light

[falcon45ca]

I'm failing to pinpoint even one wolf

towny

This shade is annoying me

I will always find "hope we lynch a wolf, gosh this game is sooooo hard, I can't find wolves!" type of posts scummy

i will never understand how ur mind works lol

S'ok, I'm not even sure I understand it myself

[falcon45ca]

I've misread falcon a bunch lately, thinking scum when he's town. This time he doesn't feel like either, at least not his usual meta. But in a vacuum I find him a bit too appeasing. His read on me is too confident. Unless there are raisins I just don't know how long I can keep ignoring him and hoping something happens to help me settle on an opinion.

Oh FFS



I have a green check on you



Go ahead and soup me Maf

this seems kinda abrupt? i have thoughts about this but wont out it out loud for a specific reason

It was abrupt. I was cranky

[hollowkatt]

I'm cool with wigly, sabie, sig, TSP being wolves here.
guillo I think maybe isn't a wolf still mostly on tone.

I wish basically I could vote everyone that isn't me and guillo

[hollowkatt]

annnd now it's work. I'll take no questions at this time goodbye

[Guillotine]

Guillo has asked alota questions today that’s sorta went nowhere

They were somewhere, which was to decide my votes and get a better read of who of the people that Dizzy was voting could be scum. The answer is 112.

I’m voting him again

Dont chop me, shoot me. You are supposedly a day vig, i dare you to unvote me and shoot me tomorrow to clear yourself.

[Guillotine]

Fwiw I can possibly see town!sig shooting Nutella, I can possibly see town!sabie shooting ender, but I can’t see them both being town with wolves having almost no kp if that’s the case. So I kinda wanna blast them both and see which one flips wolf (idt both are )

Who is the other alleged day vig with ilario again?

[TonyStarkPrime]

Ilario and Sig

Sig is sorta locked into having shot Scotty as of now if we assume no nonsense

[Guillotine]

True, it does involve me doing some preflipping but I also felt like you didn’t really believe in any of those pushes as you were doing them, maybe I’m just confbiased rn

Which trs and srs do you feel strongest about rn?

I feel strongly about Creature and belzy from the non-confirms.

Feel mildly decent about c4, nutella and MR and others that i can't remember from the top of my head.

I don't have any super strong scum reads so far over than im casting my eye at TSP who knows how to read me well and hasn't really made an attempt to solve me as far as I can tell.

Aighttt Ty for this

Can you elaborate on why u tr those people?

Belzy - I think they were the first one to call dizzy scum? Doubt a partner would bus dizzy that early when they had potential to go very deep imo. There was a derp they had iirc and i remember a post from them on day 1 whcih made me snap townread them.

C4 reminds me of his town game in Yolo's invitational. Do you feel the same way there?

Two things about the bolded statement.

1) Why did you think Dizzy could have deep wolfed if not stopped by Belzy?

2) Did you think this before or after Dizzy flupped.

3) Proof that Belzy would bus Dizzy early as scum: https://www.mafiacafe.net/forum/standar ... ame-thread

Im giving Belzy temporary credit for putting shading Dizzy but if she outlives you when she should be dead because she is hard spewed town by Dizzy and wolves gotta kill that, then slmething must be up.

[Guillotine]

Soup mechanics are so incredibly frustrating to play around

If I learnt anything from this game it’s that

Wolves can also easily fake green checks on each other

There’s so many bs claims and no way to verify them

Next game I play with soup I’m gonna policy anyone who does a claim for no reason other than they’re on their deathbed and it’s 10 mins away from being voted out

Why next game, why not this one? You got no more shots?

[Justplayingitcool]

True, it does involve me doing some preflipping but I also felt like you didn’t really believe in any of those pushes as you were doing them, maybe I’m just confbiased rn

Which trs and srs do you feel strongest about rn?

I feel strongly about Creature and belzy from the non-confirms.

Feel mildly decent about c4, nutella and MR and others that i can't remember from the top of my head.

I don't have any super strong scum reads so far over than im casting my eye at TSP who knows how to read me well and hasn't really made an attempt to solve me as far as I can tell.

Aighttt Ty for this

Can you elaborate on why u tr those people?

Belzy - I think they were the first one to call dizzy scum? Doubt a partner would bus dizzy that early when they had potential to go very deep imo. There was a derp they had iirc and i remember a post from them on day 1 whcih made me snap townread them.

C4 reminds me of his town game in Yolo's invitational. Do you feel the same way there?

Two things about the bolded statement.

1) Why did you think Dizzy could have deep wolfed if not stopped by Belzy?

2) Did you think this before or after Dizzy flupped.

3) Proof that Belzy would bus Dizzy early as scum: https://www.mafiacafe.net/forum/standar ... ame-thread

Im giving Belzy temporary credit for putting shading Dizzy but if she outlives you when she should be dead because she is hard spewed town by Dizzy and wolves gotta kill that, then slmething must be up.

1) because I was townreading dizzy and I think a fair few others were defending/townreading dizzy, I think their partners would feel the threadstate that it would be counterproductive to bus/shade their partners that early when they were in a decentish spot

2) after

3) fair

obviously there will be a point (if im alive long enough) that belzy will come under scrutiny if they keep surviving each night, but it's a slot that im not overly concerned about right now at day 2

[Guillotine]

i am clearing HK for meta reasons NGL. he feels very different than the game he was a wolf. but i did the same thing to lag last game and was very wrong so i'm getting paranoid, especially because the way he claimed earlier felt like something i'd do as wolf to divert pressure. does anyone have good meta/a good read on HK?

Take this from someone who has played with him and hosted several games where he has played.

Hollowkatt can not be meta read. Throw away any hope that you can meta read him, throw away tonal reads too, HK specialty is faking town tone and he does it perfectly.

The only way to read HK is based on behavior in the game and that is also a stretch too sometimes! Or vote patterns but today’s unique voting system made that impossible for everyone.

In all honesty, HK is a player that i would shoot because i cant get a read of him, i’ve always been wrong about his alignment in every game i played with him.
That is why you’ve never seen me vouching to save him and when he townreads me or defends me my best hope is to pray he is not scum or im fucked.

[Guillotine]

@Guillotine I'm sorry I betrayed you to make it up to you I will not vote you now lol

You betrayed me while i was asleep? Coward.

[TonyStarkPrime]

interesting. wolfy people have come out of the woodwork to put votes on me. I am thinking specifically of tsp here who did not even announce his vote. very suspicious.

[alexa]

i think the shot claims from sadie/HK are unlikely to be 2 village vig's. one is either SK or scum vig and i am ok resolving there.

i'd also like to kill sig and tsp the most aorn, and don't want c4 or guillo to die/will respect ilario's read on wilgy

so to start, [VOTE: SADIE HK SIG TSP] aubergine

[TonyStarkPrime]

alexa do you just want to kill me because you're upset that i keep voting you

[alexa]

i could be convinced to swap to 112 but still think he looks good in relation to dizzy/marmot

[TonyStarkPrime]

i think perhaps you should instead focus on killing wolves etc etc

[alexa]

have work to do
but want to outpost alexa

make meme

@alexa this feels like tsps derpy town game idkkkk

mmmm

mayyyyyyyyybeeeeeee

[alexa]

alright i will unvote: tsp for now

need to decide my 4th though

[Guillotine]

[A bunch of town reads on people]

In any case, I feel the game is in a pretty ok spot consensus-wise.

I have some concerns about Mac. Feels like he's not really landing any of his thoughts, and they seem to be a bit all over the place, which I find scummy for him.
I'm also suspicious of Scotty, feel like his posts are just awkward, trying to chime in but not really going anywhere.
Sabie is meh.

I think these are the things I've been thinking about the most.

The Mac suspicion is new here. It feels oddly placed if they are teammates, unless they had cooked up a plan to distance from one another and then Dizzy suddenly realized he'd forgotten about it.

I'm tempted to throw a townie point at Phil & Gloria here because Dizzy specifically names Mac as a suspect. I feel like if this is distancing, Dizzy would have naturally referred to the hydra account as a hydra, rather than singling out one of its two heads.

Everyone’s called the slot mac all game

I bet u 80% of the slots here don’t even know the name of the other head if u asked them on the spot so imo that’s just nai

Sloonei’s reason to townread Phil & Gloria is so dum that I’d townread him for it.

[alexa]

@ilario i thought you were coming around to guillo V. what changed?

[Guillotine]

i could be convinced to swap to 112 but still think he looks good in relation to dizzy/marmot

I agree on regards of dizzy. Sell me on regards of Marmot, i didnt see that.

[TonyStarkPrime]

@ilario how many more posts does Alexa need to be SBPC cleared

[TonyStarkPrime]

like 200 more or something?

[alexa]

alexa do you just want to kill me because you're upset that i keep voting you

there were times i OMGUSed you before of that, but i really just found your EOD1 scummy

[alexa]

uhh, recanting my seanzie read if it matters at this point

marmot, sabie, dizzy are all good suspects imo

and i could easily see BK as a wolf in this one

@Guillotine i meant because this was one of his early posts. does a wolf really support suspicions on 2 buddies this early? and sadie could be a wolf too

falcon mentioned that 112 does bus so maybe i shouldn't give it as much credit, but i thought the interactions with dizzy were decent too. you are correct that there is nothing specifically clearing in his interactions with marmot, it was specifically this early post. if he's a wolf he's definitely townsiding and bringing us his buddies at the very least

[Guillotine]

I scum read ilario but he shot Dizzy, im giving him the same chance im giving Belzy.

[alexa]

@ilario how many more posts does Alexa need to be SBPC cleared

the most i've ever mosted as a wolf is 1397 times in champs finale and the most i've ever posted as a villager is 2911 times in anni

both impressive feats