Pandas vs Trash Pandas [Day 7]

[hollowkatt]

probably we want constant detail on nanook and then allow townies to use their best judgement to protect other townies?

[Guillotine]

Like I don't really want to policy shoot but I also don't want to lose because someone can't follow a plan cause they have too much ego, y'know

It's not ego. Just because you are confirmed town it does not mean that whatever you come up with is the perfect plan or solve to win the game, pull your head out of your buttocks and work with me. We have had our differences but im not a thrower.

K, insulting me isn't the way to go here

It's not you specifically, it's anyone that won't agree to follow the mech plan. Like...that's just how this game is, it requires cooperation, so the choices are either work with the group or get shot

You're welcome to give input on the plan obviously, but if you're just gonna say "no fuck that im not following any plans!" That's just...not something we can afford in this setup, lol

Dude, why is everything i say insulting to everyone here. This is getting tiring.

Im not opposed to plans, just take it from someone whom is great at turning plans made by town against them as a wolf, you gotta have a wild card, someone capable of doing an 180 on the wolves without risking a throw. The moment you commit to a plan in mafia, that is the moment you lose because scum can manipulate that.

Im not saying i dont want yo cooperate, i do, im saying… we dont want to lay it all out for scum.

[Creature]

I think I'm only liking falcon45ca and Urist right now.

[falcon45ca]

I'm gonna shoot at 24 hour mark every day, first person to complain about it or call it anti-town gets shot today

Not opposed to this. Waiting 48 hours for a flip feels unbearable.

Oh, Creature suckin up to Nook, eh?


[img][

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

It's an open setup

[Urist]

We should still do some non-NANOOK saving because we're likely losing if we only protect NANOOK. It's 11 v 4 and wolves will get 3 kills every two nights.

Yeah, I'll calculate how much we can allot to that after... And once we all agree on the risk factor, we lock it in and stop playing the mechanics, and just play mafia.

the acceptable risk is roughly:
the amount of "winrate" scum loses by missing a kill... minus 1%

It's scum's probability of winning if they target Nanook exclusively.

what i mean is that we need to ensure the risk of losing by leaving nanook unprotected is less than the risk of scum losing by missing out on a kill. for example, if we assume scum have a WR of 50% going into n1, and if we assume that scum WR drops to 45% if the kill fails, then as long as we keep the risk of nanook being unprotected under 5% we're good.
i haven't done any of the math with regard to winrates but i'm pretty sure the logic is fine.

[Urist]

@NotAnAxehole do you know scum's chance of winning if they miss every kill?

[Creature]

@NotAnAxehole do you know scum's chance of winning if they miss every kill?

A vanilla nightless town EV is calculated through [NUMBER OF TOWN PLAYERS - NUMBER OF MAFIA PLAYERS]/[NUMBER OF TOTAL PLAYERS] so an 11:4 nightless town EV would be: [11 - 4]/[15] = 46.67% or wolves EV = 53.33%.

Of course, the wolves EV should be slightly lower than that considering one of the town players is confirmed.

[Urist]

Ok, so basic risk calculation indicates that if we all roll 3, and we only save on a 3 (1/3 of the time)... There's a 1.7% probability of mafia winning instantly with a shot on Nanook -> This isn't a viable shot for them.

If we maintain a ~1.5-2% chance each day (just need to calculate the numbers for each amount of pandas), every scenario, should be trivial...

That gives mafia about a 7% chance of winning in by day 4 (exclusive targeting Nanook), 13% chance with 8 days of targeting...

This is a very good number for town, and I think Nanook can kill mafia faster than this.. I have not calculated the probability of us running out of saves, but I would probably do that privately...

Nobody ever saves anyone but Nanook, and nobody ever claims saves.

"i believe nanook can kill mafia quickly"
*does math assuming nanook will shoot wrong d1*

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Nobody's perfect

[Marmot]

Hi I am perfect and I hardclaim Blue Panda.

[Urist]

s = scum remaining
t = town remaining
d = doctor shots remaining
Pn = odds of protecting nanook
Po = odds of protecting someone else (the target is left to the individual panda's discretion)

Pn = (d / s) * (1 - (t / (s + t)))

Po = Pn / 3

In general, the odds of nanook being unprotected by anyone are (1 - Pn) ^ t

So on night one, regardless of who's eliminated, the probabilities work out to...
Pn = (4 / 4) * (1 - (10 / (4 + 10))) = ~28.6%
Po = Pn / 3 = ~9.5%
The chance of nanook being unprotected is only ~3.5% which is close to ideal imo. Anything under 2% is too low because we'll likely run out of protects too quickly.

I think this formula achieves the goals of:
1) making a protect on nanook more likely if scum have fewer players left alive.
2) making a protect less likely if you've already protected before.
3) allowing a small chance of protecting a townie who isn't nanook, to give the opportunity for saves in other places.

[Guillotine]

Im not good at plans but i think i got the plan to keep wolves at bay with our saves.

1) We establish the PoE
2) Assign one player in PoE to protect Nanook.
3) If for any reason Nanook dies, that means the PoE player didnt protect Nanook.
4) Repeat.

That way we make our PoE protect our red panda and the non-poe choose to protect whoever they townread! Genius!

What you think?

[Guillotine]

Im not good at plans but i think i got the plan to keep wolves at bay with our saves.

1) We establish the PoE
2) Assign one player in PoE to protect Nanook and we chop them
3) If for any reason Nanook dies, that means the PoE player didnt protect Nanook.
4) Repeat.

That way we make our PoE protect our red panda and the non-poe choose to protect whoever they townread! Genius!

What you think?

Correction

[Guillotine]

Never mind. Brain fart.

[hollowkatt]

lol

[Urist]

Im not good at plans but i think i got the plan to keep wolves at bay with our saves.

1) We establish the PoE
2) Assign one player in PoE to protect Nanook and we chop them
3) If for any reason Nanook dies, that means the PoE player didnt protect Nanook.
4) Repeat.

That way we make our PoE protect our red panda and the non-poe choose to protect whoever they townread! Genius!

What you think?

Correction

i can't even begin to understand how you thought this would work

[hollowkatt]

now can I call guillo lock town?

[hollowkatt]

like yes, your range is infinite and yes you're The Amazing Guillo, but c'mon, why fake that when you can just "be town"

[Guillotine]

Im not good at plans but i think i got the plan to keep wolves at bay with our saves.

1) We establish the PoE
2) Assign one player in PoE to protect Nanook and we chop them
3) If for any reason Nanook dies, that means the PoE player didnt protect Nanook.
4) Repeat.

That way we make our PoE protect our red panda and the non-poe choose to protect whoever they townread! Genius!

What you think?

Correction

i can't even begin to understand how you thought this would work

I need some sleep ¯\\_(ツ)\_/¯

[Guillotine]

Im usually not this dumb meh

[Marmot]

DDL is a wolf
Guillo is town
Nanook is IC
falcon is town
NAA could be mafia
Creature is town
hk is town


that's my solve so far, how'd I do?

[Spacedaisy]

[/quote]

s = scum remaining
t = town remaining
d = doctor shots remaining
Pn = odds of protecting nanook
Po = odds of protecting someone else (the target is left to the individual panda's discretion)

Pn = (d / s) * (1 - (t / (s + t)))

Po = Pn / 3

In general, the odds of nanook being unprotected by anyone are (1 - Pn) ^ t

So on night one, regardless of who's eliminated, the probabilities work out to...
Pn = (4 / 4) * (1 - (10 / (4 + 10))) = ~28.6%
Po = Pn / 3 = ~9.5%
The chance of nanook being unprotected is only ~3.5% which is close to ideal imo. Anything under 2% is too low because we'll likely run out of protects too quickly.

I think this formula achieves the goals of:
1) making a protect on nanook more likely if scum have fewer players left alive.
2) making a protect less likely if you've already protected before.
3) allowing a small chance of protecting a townie who isn't nanook, to give the opportunity for saves in other places.

I am not good with the math, this made my brain melt.

I liked the idea of the dice roll, because it makes it harder for the mafia to manipulate. However, it also makes it less like we can gain any information from a NK either because they are literally just taking a shot in the dark. Votes won't really give us much information either because they don't mean anything. A wolf can bus their teammate easily because their vote is meaningless in the end since Nook chooses who dies. This will make it a lot harder to sus out who is suspicious. This feels a bit like a crap shoot. I didn't really pay attention to the setup before I joined, so I didn't even realize this was how it was setup.

Given it's a crap shoot, I can't see any benefit to claiming, so maybe let's go with the dice rolling idea. However, can we modify it? Like, if you roll anything other than a three you roll again to see if you protect someone else or yourself, or something like that? Would that lower the chances they will thin our numbers out too quickly? I'll leave answering that to the mathematicians of the group.

[Spacedaisy]

Oh and also, currently reading Guillo and Creature as town.

[NotAnAxehole]

s = scum remaining
t = town remaining
d = doctor shots remaining
Pn = odds of protecting nanook
Po = odds of protecting someone else (the target is left to the individual panda's discretion)

Pn = (d / s) * (1 - (t / (s + t)))

Po = Pn / 3

In general, the odds of nanook being unprotected by anyone are (1 - Pn) ^ t

So on night one, regardless of who's eliminated, the probabilities work out to...
Pn = (4 / 4) * (1 - (10 / (4 + 10))) = ~28.6%
Po = Pn / 3 = ~9.5%
The chance of nanook being unprotected is only ~3.5% which is close to ideal imo. Anything under 2% is too low because we'll likely run out of protects too quickly.

I think this formula achieves the goals of:
1) making a protect on nanook more likely if scum have fewer players left alive.
2) making a protect less likely if you've already protected before.
3) allowing a small chance of protecting a townie who isn't nanook, to give the opportunity for saves in other places.

Odd Nights
Panda % No Save % Save
10 0.666666667 0.333333333
9 0.633333333 0.366666667
8 0.6 0.4
7 0.55 0.45
6 0.5 0.5
5 0.45 0.55
4 0.35 0.65
3 0.25 0.75
2 0.15 0.85

Even Nights
Panda % No Save % Save
9 0.6 0.4
8 0.55 0.45
7 0.5 0.5
6 0.45 0.55
5 0.35 0.65
4 0.25 0.75
3 0.1 0.9
2 0 1

Realistically, @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME has max 2 miss-chops. If we stick to this, only using saves on Nanook, then by N5 (which is the longest we have to hold out in this scenario) we should on average have 1.8 saves per player on average... This is basically a worst-case winning scenario calculated based on the misschops being D1 & D2. Misschops later in the game offer more flexibility than early.

[Spacedaisy]

that's probably ideal from nanook tbh to just read and maybe react to pings or something like that

Are you saying he should only read and react to pings? If so,weird take. He controls the elimination, I think he should probably be up to speed on what is happening in the thread.

[Spacedaisy]

Anyways I'm not gonna post much, you guys do your thing

Oh, maybe hk was saying that Nook not posting much is a good plan. Not sure either, if this makes a difference, but I can understand Nook wanting to observe more than interact.

[NotAnAxehole]

In order to extend the game, we need 2 saves, and we need to spend fewer shots making those saves than what we conserve from saving them... making a singular save, or more than 2 saves is probably -EV due to the clock we're on with 4 saves apiece.

Or we take more risk on Nanook...

I propose that we double the risk on Nanook on even nights, nights 2 and 4 - In order for Scum to go for him, they need to risk 2 KP, which is a bigger gamble than even nights. If we have our 2 saves before Night 4, then we scrap the plan and go with the standard risk I presented in my last post.

[Spacedaisy]

Oh god, more math.

I'm thinking about it, and I like the dice roll idea, but it's statistics, and just because it's low doesn't mean it can't happen. If somehow no one protects Nook and he gets hit, we're done. We can't risk that.

What if we mix the ideas of stacking protects and dice roll. Something like, stack protection on Nook, two on one kill nights, and three on two kill nights. And then everyone else rolls to possibly protect someone else (either one of the ones protecting Nook or someone else they think might be at risk), or themselves, or not protect at all? Because if they mafia know who is unprotected, it makes it easy for them to pick us off. But we can't risk completely random because we might accidentally end up with nook unprotected, right?

Someone want to do math on that? Is it sustainable for the length of the game or are we going to run out of kills too quickly if we stack too methodically on Nook?

[NotAnAxehole]

Oh god, more math.

I'm thinking about it, and I like the dice roll idea, but it's statistics, and just because it's low doesn't mean it can't happen. If somehow no one protects Nook and he gets hit, we're done. We can't risk that.

What if we mix the ideas of stacking protects and dice roll. Something like, stack protection on Nook, two on one kill nights, and three on two kill nights. And then everyone else rolls to possibly protect someone else (either one of the ones protecting Nook or someone else they think might be at risk), or themselves, or not protect at all? Because if they mafia know who is unprotected, it makes it easy for them to pick us off. But we can't risk completely random because we might accidentally end up with nook unprotected, right?

Someone want to do math on that? Is it sustainable for the length of the game or are we going to run out of kills too quickly if we stack too methodically on Nook?

No, we don't have any way to ensure Nanook is protected, and to have sufficient saves to play out the game. Coordinating saves on Nanook also gives scum an exact count.

No, we can't go around saving other people unless it's explicitly at the expense of saving Nanook, we don't have a lot of leeway when we have 4 saves for 5 nights... There isn't sufficient reason to protect ANYONE other than Nanook on odd nights, on even nights the risk/reward is debatable, but it'll really be case by case - I wouldn't recommend anyone putting a save out on non-Nanook unless they could comfortably make D6.

No, none of the ideas you presented are sustainable Sorry to be the BEARer of bad news.

[Spacedaisy]

::shrug:: I don't believe anything is sustainable, and nothing I presented is original, so it doesn't hurt my feelings. Basically, I'll go with whatever plan we all determine is our best shot if it keeps me from having to think about more math. :P

[NotAnAxehole]

s = scum remaining
t = town remaining
d = doctor shots remaining
Pn = odds of protecting nanook
Po = odds of protecting someone else (the target is left to the individual panda's discretion)

Pn = (d / s) * (1 - (t / (s + t)))

Po = Pn / 3

In general, the odds of nanook being unprotected by anyone are (1 - Pn) ^ t

So on night one, regardless of who's eliminated, the probabilities work out to...
Pn = (4 / 4) * (1 - (10 / (4 + 10))) = ~28.6%
Po = Pn / 3 = ~9.5%
The chance of nanook being unprotected is only ~3.5% which is close to ideal imo. Anything under 2% is too low because we'll likely run out of protects too quickly.

I think this formula achieves the goals of:
1) making a protect on nanook more likely if scum have fewer players left alive.
2) making a protect less likely if you've already protected before.
3) allowing a small chance of protecting a townie who isn't nanook, to give the opportunity for saves in other places.

Odd Nights
Panda % No Save % Save
10 0.666666667 0.333333333
9 0.633333333 0.366666667
8 0.6 0.4
7 0.55 0.45
6 0.5 0.5
5 0.45 0.55
4 0.35 0.65
3 0.25 0.75
2 0.15 0.85

Even Nights
Panda % No Save % Save
9 0.6 0.4
8 0.55 0.45
7 0.5 0.5
6 0.45 0.55
5 0.35 0.65
4 0.25 0.75
3 0.1 0.9
2 0 1

Realistically, @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME has max 2 miss-chops. If we stick to this, only using saves on Nanook, then by N5 (which is the longest we have to hold out in this scenario) we should on average have 1.8 saves per player on average... This is basically a worst-case winning scenario calculated based on the misschops being D1 & D2. Misschops later in the game offer more flexibility than early.

I don't think we should talk night strategy past this - On N2 if you still have 4 saves, and you miss Nanook, you can try to make a play...

Even though I don't know how mechanically sound that is.

[Michelle]

[NotAnAxehole]

DDL is a wolf
Guillo is town
Nanook is IC
falcon is town
NAA could be mafia
Creature is town
hk is town


that's my solve so far, how'd I do?

Nah, Falcon is mafia, the rest might be right though.

[Spacedaisy]

s = scum remaining
t = town remaining
d = doctor shots remaining
Pn = odds of protecting nanook
Po = odds of protecting someone else (the target is left to the individual panda's discretion)

Pn = (d / s) * (1 - (t / (s + t)))

Po = Pn / 3

In general, the odds of nanook being unprotected by anyone are (1 - Pn) ^ t

So on night one, regardless of who's eliminated, the probabilities work out to...
Pn = (4 / 4) * (1 - (10 / (4 + 10))) = ~28.6%
Po = Pn / 3 = ~9.5%
The chance of nanook being unprotected is only ~3.5% which is close to ideal imo. Anything under 2% is too low because we'll likely run out of protects too quickly.

I think this formula achieves the goals of:
1) making a protect on nanook more likely if scum have fewer players left alive.
2) making a protect less likely if you've already protected before.
3) allowing a small chance of protecting a townie who isn't nanook, to give the opportunity for saves in other places.

Odd Nights
Panda % No Save % Save
10 0.666666667 0.333333333
9 0.633333333 0.366666667
8 0.6 0.4
7 0.55 0.45
6 0.5 0.5
5 0.45 0.55
4 0.35 0.65
3 0.25 0.75
2 0.15 0.85

Even Nights
Panda % No Save % Save
9 0.6 0.4
8 0.55 0.45
7 0.5 0.5
6 0.45 0.55
5 0.35 0.65
4 0.25 0.75
3 0.1 0.9
2 0 1

Realistically, @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME has max 2 miss-chops. If we stick to this, only using saves on Nanook, then by N5 (which is the longest we have to hold out in this scenario) we should on average have 1.8 saves per player on average... This is basically a worst-case winning scenario calculated based on the misschops being D1 & D2. Misschops later in the game offer more flexibility than early.

I don't think we should talk night strategy past this - On N2 if you still have 4 saves, and you miss Nanook, you can try to make a play...

Even though I don't know how mechanically sound that is.

I don’t understand what you are saying.

[fingersplints]

Yay game

[fingersplints]

I’m only here for the pandas and am completely useless when it comes to mech discussion, but I will follow whatever plan is agreed upon

[Dyslexicon]

Hello, everyone.

[Dyslexicon]

I don’t remember what we did mech wise last time, but I think it worked-ish. Except Nut shot the wrong people.

I think maybe we coordinated enough to have the shooter covered, and then could rogue protect likely other targets of it felt necessary.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Im telling you right now, i aint attempting to save anyone in this game but myself, i believes in flips over saves.

Are people gonna have to spend another 2 rl weeks begging you to read the rules post

[Dyslexicon]

Hmm

Not sure how hardcore your truth meta is in this case tbh, like theres no work to fake claim the only available town role. But some players have truth metas that are like a religion and they'd rather self-modkill than break them.

Falcon doesn't have a truth tell.

Also, for anyone who's confused, this isn't a mafia game, it's a statistics problem, with a side of mafia for Nanook to play.

No, it's also a mafia game. We should all also solve alignments obviously, and that will also make it easier for Nanook as well as others to solve the game. That is how mafia works. For example, if my solving is good, I'm likely town. If my solving is bad, I'm likely mafia.

We have four kills each so optimization would be to most players save their protects and only the players who we expect to die early should be using their protects.

Look at this obvious scum slip.

Anyways this game is literally up to me to solve so like

Antagonizing me and refusing to cooperate isn't gonna help things

Literally just asking you to be a team player

No, it's up to everyone to solve. It's up to you to make the kills.

Dude, why is everything i say insulting to everyone here. This is getting tiring.

Im not opposed to plans, just take it from someone whom is great at turning plans made by town against them as a wolf, you gotta have a wild card, someone capable of doing an 180 on the wolves without risking a throw. The moment you commit to a plan in mafia, that is the moment you lose because scum can manipulate that.

Im not saying i dont want yo cooperate, i do, im saying… we dont want to lay it all out for scum.

Why are you so adamant about not cooperating and doing what you want, when you don't seem to understand the basics of the setup in the first place?

I think I'm only liking falcon45ca and Urist right now.

Why Urist?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Falcon told me last game he never lies about his role claims.

[Dyslexicon]

Ok, so basic risk calculation indicates that if we all roll 3, and we only save on a 3 (1/3 of the time)... There's a 1.7% probability of mafia winning instantly with a shot on Nanook -> This isn't a viable shot for them.

If we maintain a ~1.5-2% chance each day (just need to calculate the numbers for each amount of pandas), every scenario, should be trivial...

That gives mafia about a 7% chance of winning in by day 4 (exclusive targeting Nanook), 13% chance with 8 days of targeting...

This is a very good number for town, and I think Nanook can kill mafia faster than this.. I have not calculated the probability of us running out of saves, but I would probably do that privately...

Nobody ever saves anyone but Nanook, and nobody ever claims saves.

I agree with a lot of this, but not at all on the last sentence. We should definitely open up for other saves than on Nanook.

We should make sure Nanook is either covered or reasonably covered.
It should be either:
1. Assigned and foolproof (So no "If our reads are good, we have enough protects", because this is where the trash can manipulate).
2. Dice roll as you suggest here, with a high probability of success.

I prefer option 2, the dice roll, because it ensures that mafia doesn't know who has used their protects or not.

But in addition to the dice roll, we should open up for protects on others (or self).
This is where the element of surprise comes in handy.
We should be conservative about it, for sure, but we shouldn't just dismiss doing it.
I mean, some people are probably going to go rogue to some degree anyway.

The problem with only protecting Nanook is obviously that mafia can kill anyone else, and then we lose protects really fast.
Doesn't matter that you save your protects if you just die anyway.

At the same time, you do have to be careful not to use too many protects too quickly.

So for example, if you roll 3 in a 1-3, you protect Nanook.
If you roll 1 or 2, you should probably save your protects, but if you feel like you could possibly successfully save someone because intuition or what not, then it's not a terrible idea to have that option. Saving someone who has an amount of protects left is pretty huge.

We have to reevaluate the strategy for the coming night based on who dies and what the numbers are in the game.

There will also be "oh shit we didn't think about this" moments later regarding mech, most likely.

For example, if we do manage to save someone else than Nanook, should we claim who we protected? It may confirm town. But it also gives mafia info. Etc.

But there's some bridges we cross when we get there.
First of all, let's make sure Nanook is covered within reason.

And then, we find mafia, so we don't have to think about this for too long.

[Dyslexicon]

Falcon told me last game he never lies about his role claims.

Falcon says he's town when he's mafia as well.

I don't know or care about the role claims.

I don't really think he's suspicious, but he doesn't have a "I'm town" truth tell.

[Dyslexicon]

Right now I'd probably shoot one of DDL or Creature.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

This game has a limited post count.

Some people are burning their whole limit talking about mech and later on they will be able to use that as an excuse not to scumhunt.

I'd kill one of the people doing that. [VOTE: NAA] aubergine

As for the mech, here are my two cents.

Nanook needs to be protected 24/7. I think the safe number is 5 docs on odd days and 6 docs on even days. We can do a little less if we think the entire mafia won't get on the doctor block. Maybe 4 and 5. I'll volunteer for the doctor block today if nobody else will, but we should rotate.

Everyone else should protect conservatively, so we don't waste our protects early. Do not announce whether you are protecting or not, and who. Just do what you feel like and be cautious.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Anyways this game is literally up to me to solve so like

Antagonizing me and refusing to cooperate isn't gonna help things

Literally just asking you to be a team player

I strongly recommend you don't attempt to solve it by yourself and just follow whatever the majority is saying unless you have REALLY strong reasons not to.

Otherwise odds are you are joining nutella in the "traumatized by this setup" spec chat next time.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Falcon told me last game he never lies about his role claims.

Falcon says he's town when he's mafia as well.

I don't know or care about the role claims.

I don't really think he's suspicious, but he doesn't have a "I'm town" truth tell.

I don't care if you don't care.

This game has no vanilla town roles. Falcon said he doesn't fake claim roles. He claimed a town role. So unless we believe his previous statement about having that meta was a lie, falcon should be treated as confirmed or nearly confirmed town.

I'm not saying falcon has a "no lie" meta. I'm saying he has a "no fake claim" meta. Those metas exist, I've met people with them in other sites before.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I love Pandaman but he looks silly af in this pic, I think I'm swapping avys again.

[Dyslexicon]

Falcon told me last game he never lies about his role claims.

Falcon says he's town when he's mafia as well.

I don't know or care about the role claims.

I don't really think he's suspicious, but he doesn't have a "I'm town" truth tell.

I don't care if you don't care.

This game has no vanilla town roles. Falcon said he doesn't fake claim roles. He claimed a town role. So unless we believe his previous statement about having that meta was a lie, falcon should be treated as confirmed or nearly confirmed town.

I'm not saying falcon has a "no lie" meta. I'm saying he has a "no fake claim" meta. Those metas exist, I've met people with them in other sites before.

Sure.