Halvøsen Ridge [MAFIA WIN]

[NateTheLesser]

I see things are happening.

[Marmot]

Nate did you post a generic readlist?

[NateTheLesser]

So Lucy, who in your qualifier game do you think showed the sort of tunneling/aggression that you're expecting? Just want to get a baseline.

[robyn]

So Lucy, who in your qualifier game do you think showed the sort of tunneling/aggression that you're expecting? Just want to get a baseline.

Seven, lag kinda, Shinichi at the end + spiderz throughout and Gorta. especially seven

[Marmot]

@NateTheLesser I would like to hear some personal opinions from you, rather than simply reiterating data from the game like a human Modbot. What reads do you feel most strongly about? What do you think of the JJJ/Seanzie argument?

Well, I think JJJ/Sean can be added to the "not w/w" chart, for starters. I think they were talking past each other in that argument. I still trust JJJ, partly because wolves in general want to keep the POE as open as possible and looking at interactions like he's doing is a way of narrowing it. None of it is "clearing", and JJJ isn't claiming that it is, it's just a way to help focus our attention. The other two that were in my top 4 yesterday were Boq and Lucy who I still feel mostly good about, though they've both dropped off a bit today so there hasn't been as much to go on. I'm more interested in the middle Falcon voters today (Fingersplints/Creature/Dizzy/Ender), less interested in the late voters (you and Lucy jumped on near EOD when I wouldn't expect wolves to pile on a runaway town flip). I was also feeling good about Marmot going into today, mainly because I thought their reasoning for sussing Ender near EOD was a good thread to pull, and game state wise I wouldn't expect a wolf to start a late wagon when they could just coast to the misyeet that was already in progress. So the sus going their way today has me wondering if I'm missing something.

You aren't the only one interested in that list of falcon voters (Fingersplints/Creature/Dizzy/Ender). 7 out of 10 votes so far today are on 3 of those players.

[NateTheLesser]

Nate did you post a generic readlist?

I dunno, probably?

[Marmot]

Nate did you post a generic readlist?

I dunno, probably?

Do you know where it is? lucy and I are on a hunt for one, and she thought you'd posted it.

[robyn]

I'm actually pissed

[Alison]

I'll be a little busy for the next 12 hours or so, my apologies. I have skimmed fingersplint's posts this page and been left with a generally good impression. Would like more elaboration on how Ender read Dizzy's entrance; which part of it was a towntell, etc.

If I elaborate it won't work anymore lol.

Keeping a read cryptic so you can use it in future games is dumb. You have already been extremely cagey this game; I would like you to please elaborate on the tell you used to read Dizzy.

Please wait 3-5 business days for a response.

I am sorely tempted to vote you.

[robyn]

no fucking clue how I lost such a thing

[Marmot]

(watch it be my readlist, which is admittedly generic)

[robyn]

think about it, the more time you spend doing something the more emotions you put into it, the more feelings you thusly express. simply applied it to what I saw

So do you expect Jay to be fuming?

he's more mature than you, or has played more. either way I expect to see no real emotion from unless someone does something mod kill worthy

Haha, so you find me immature enough to get super emotional while playing, but then you're not seeing that so you're confused. Meh, I can be pretty immature, but hopefully I hold my emotions in enough most of the time.

Anyways, I misread Lucy's original post that kinda spurred this discussion, it isn't as clear as I thought that she has meta on me that she shouldn't otherwise have.

again, I am just that good

Well, your read on me still doesn't really make sense and suggests you need to read my ISO more carefully, but that is a fight I don't feel like fighting, so I'll leave it at that.

for the record I spent 3 minutes

[Alison]

I vored Dizzy because he went from just being lower activity to openly luxuriating in it and declaring himself comfortable/townie in his state of doing nothing in a way that feels like a refuge in audacity.

Ender's continued refusal to explain his reads hits the same notes for me. I am struggling to understand why they would approach the game like this if they are town.

[NateTheLesser]

Nate did you post a generic readlist?

I dunno, probably?

Do you know where it is? lucy and I are on a hunt for one, and she thought you'd posted it.

I think this was my biggest read post from yesterday:

JJJ def has better scum reads than me right now, & Nate's vote is lazy.



Of the 2, Nate is my pick for scum. Jay feels like he's trying to get towny activity out of me with his vote.



I have a sneaking suspicion that Maf are kinda letting town do their work for them currently, with a town voice in their crew.


So 1 Maf amongst the more vocal, with 1 -2 amongst the mid level contributors and 1-2 amongst the slanking players

Is this just a different way of saying the team is me / Sean / Marmot again?

Did you ever find the time to give me an update on the game/reads from your perspective? I asked you about it yesterday and I know you said you were still catching up.

I did not, no. There are still a few pages from yesterday during the (US) day that I haven't read, but I have more time today to catch up the rest of the way and stay current. I'll give you some thoughts, though, starting off with @JaggedJimmyJay's request for 4 town names. My top town would be JJJ, Mac, Boq, and Lucy. I know that has significant overlap with "most active". But JJJ and Boq both seem to be doing their own thing and solving independently while also making sure the overall thread state is moving in a positive direction. None of JJJ/Mac/Boq seem all that concerned with triangulating their reads so they match up (as one example, Boq's early town leans had overlap with Mac's early scum leans). Lucy I still just think is town from overall comfort level and tone. I think she'd be more self-conscious about not having reads as a wolf, especially when Mac was prodding her about it.

The tier below that (call it town leans) I'd put you (Sean) and Alison. You've trended up for me. I kind of vibed with Falcon's early read of you being "stiff", but that was mostly Day 0. I think Day 1 your pushes have made sense to me and you're poking at things in a solvey way. I had some initial concern that you were trying to keep Lucy in the POE, but you explained why Mac townleaning her stood out to you, so fine. Alison I'm townleaning at this point mostly from overlap between our town and scum piles, and she's been broadly engaging with players in the game rather than keeping a narrow focus. Do you still feel like her push on Rondo was just to cause disruption? It hasn't seemed to play out that way.

Some flavor of null on Creature/Dizzy/Ender/Fingersplints/Marmot. Of those it bothers me the most that I don't have a read on Ender. In our qualifier he projected a lot of solving towniness that I don't see here, but he was also a wolf in that game, so I'm not sure how to apply that meta. Creature I haven't gotten any specific pings from; seems like there's concern that their lack of activity is telling, but I have no meta there. So I think those are my two nulls that I want to sort in some fashion.

That leaves Falcon/Rondo/Wilgy as POE, which I really don't think is the exact team because that would be wild. I'm still fine with my Falcon vote, the only thing that makes me paranoid is how many people seem to agree with me. With both Falcon and Rondo they're in my POE because I get hints of agenda poking through the fluff. Wilgy's mostly here from, well, process of elimination, but I also didn't like his reaction to a towncore forming and asked him for more thoughts on that.

[Alison]

I honestly just want to get rid of those two because I think they are taking advantage of the slower game speed to openly fuck around.

[robyn]

(watch it be my readlist, which is admittedly generic)

no it was much more heinous, but I'm gonna spend any of my 4ish hours of time I have in my home alone looking for that read list

[robyn]

Nate did you post a generic readlist?

I dunno, probably?

Do you know where it is? lucy and I are on a hunt for one, and she thought you'd posted it.

I think this was my biggest read post from yesterday:

JJJ def has better scum reads than me right now, & Nate's vote is lazy.



Of the 2, Nate is my pick for scum. Jay feels like he's trying to get towny activity out of me with his vote.



I have a sneaking suspicion that Maf are kinda letting town do their work for them currently, with a town voice in their crew.


So 1 Maf amongst the more vocal, with 1 -2 amongst the mid level contributors and 1-2 amongst the slanking players

Is this just a different way of saying the team is me / Sean / Marmot again?

Did you ever find the time to give me an update on the game/reads from your perspective? I asked you about it yesterday and I know you said you were still catching up.

I did not, no. There are still a few pages from yesterday during the (US) day that I haven't read, but I have more time today to catch up the rest of the way and stay current. I'll give you some thoughts, though, starting off with @JaggedJimmyJay's request for 4 town names. My top town would be JJJ, Mac, Boq, and Lucy. I know that has significant overlap with "most active". But JJJ and Boq both seem to be doing their own thing and solving independently while also making sure the overall thread state is moving in a positive direction. None of JJJ/Mac/Boq seem all that concerned with triangulating their reads so they match up (as one example, Boq's early town leans had overlap with Mac's early scum leans). Lucy I still just think is town from overall comfort level and tone. I think she'd be more self-conscious about not having reads as a wolf, especially when Mac was prodding her about it.

The tier below that (call it town leans) I'd put you (Sean) and Alison. You've trended up for me. I kind of vibed with Falcon's early read of you being "stiff", but that was mostly Day 0. I think Day 1 your pushes have made sense to me and you're poking at things in a solvey way. I had some initial concern that you were trying to keep Lucy in the POE, but you explained why Mac townleaning her stood out to you, so fine. Alison I'm townleaning at this point mostly from overlap between our town and scum piles, and she's been broadly engaging with players in the game rather than keeping a narrow focus. Do you still feel like her push on Rondo was just to cause disruption? It hasn't seemed to play out that way.

Some flavor of null on Creature/Dizzy/Ender/Fingersplints/Marmot. Of those it bothers me the most that I don't have a read on Ender. In our qualifier he projected a lot of solving towniness that I don't see here, but he was also a wolf in that game, so I'm not sure how to apply that meta. Creature I haven't gotten any specific pings from; seems like there's concern that their lack of activity is telling, but I have no meta there. So I think those are my two nulls that I want to sort in some fashion.

That leaves Falcon/Rondo/Wilgy as POE, which I really don't think is the exact team because that would be wild. I'm still fine with my Falcon vote, the only thing that makes me paranoid is how many people seem to agree with me. With both Falcon and Rondo they're in my POE because I get hints of agenda poking through the fluff. Wilgy's mostly here from, well, process of elimination, but I also didn't like his reaction to a towncore forming and asked him for more thoughts on that.

it was this without any explanations, just names

[robyn]

(watch it be my readlist, which is admittedly generic)

no it was much more heinous, but I'm gonna spend any of my 4ish hours of time I have in my home alone looking for that read list

anymore*

[Alison]

@NateTheLesser I would like to hear some personal opinions from you, rather than simply reiterating data from the game like a human Modbot. What reads do you feel most strongly about? What do you think of the JJJ/Seanzie argument?

Well, I think JJJ/Sean can be added to the "not w/w" chart, for starters. I think they were talking past each other in that argument. I still trust JJJ, partly because wolves in general want to keep the POE as open as possible and looking at interactions like he's doing is a way of narrowing it. None of it is "clearing", and JJJ isn't claiming that it is, it's just a way to help focus our attention. The other two that were in my top 4 yesterday were Boq and Lucy who I still feel mostly good about, though they've both dropped off a bit today so there hasn't been as much to go on. I'm more interested in the middle Falcon voters today (Fingersplints/Creature/Dizzy/Ender), less interested in the late voters (you and Lucy jumped on near EOD when I wouldn't expect wolves to pile on a runaway town flip). I was also feeling good about Marmot going into today, mainly because I thought their reasoning for sussing Ender near EOD was a good thread to pull, and game state wise I wouldn't expect a wolf to start a late wagon when they could just coast to the misyeet that was already in progress. So the sus going their way today has me wondering if I'm missing something.

How would you rank finger/creature/dizzy/ender in order of suspicion right now, with brief reasons if possible?

[NateTheLesser]

So Lucy, who in your qualifier game do you think showed the sort of tunneling/aggression that you're expecting? Just want to get a baseline.

Seven, lag kinda, Shinichi at the end + spiderz throughout and Gorta. especially seven

Mk. I'd consider Seven and Lag more aggressive than average for Champs, and I'd guess that Champs is overall more aggressive than The Syndicate (I haven't spectated here before, that's just my impression).

[NateTheLesser]

Spoiler: show

Nate did you post a generic readlist?

I dunno, probably?

Do you know where it is? lucy and I are on a hunt for one, and she thought you'd posted it.

I think this was my biggest read post from yesterday:

JJJ def has better scum reads than me right now, & Nate's vote is lazy.



Of the 2, Nate is my pick for scum. Jay feels like he's trying to get towny activity out of me with his vote.



I have a sneaking suspicion that Maf are kinda letting town do their work for them currently, with a town voice in their crew.


So 1 Maf amongst the more vocal, with 1 -2 amongst the mid level contributors and 1-2 amongst the slanking players

Is this just a different way of saying the team is me / Sean / Marmot again?

Did you ever find the time to give me an update on the game/reads from your perspective? I asked you about it yesterday and I know you said you were still catching up.

I did not, no. There are still a few pages from yesterday during the (US) day that I haven't read, but I have more time today to catch up the rest of the way and stay current. I'll give you some thoughts, though, starting off with @JaggedJimmyJay's request for 4 town names. My top town would be JJJ, Mac, Boq, and Lucy. I know that has significant overlap with "most active". But JJJ and Boq both seem to be doing their own thing and solving independently while also making sure the overall thread state is moving in a positive direction. None of JJJ/Mac/Boq seem all that concerned with triangulating their reads so they match up (as one example, Boq's early town leans had overlap with Mac's early scum leans). Lucy I still just think is town from overall comfort level and tone. I think she'd be more self-conscious about not having reads as a wolf, especially when Mac was prodding her about it.

The tier below that (call it town leans) I'd put you (Sean) and Alison. You've trended up for me. I kind of vibed with Falcon's early read of you being "stiff", but that was mostly Day 0. I think Day 1 your pushes have made sense to me and you're poking at things in a solvey way. I had some initial concern that you were trying to keep Lucy in the POE, but you explained why Mac townleaning her stood out to you, so fine. Alison I'm townleaning at this point mostly from overlap between our town and scum piles, and she's been broadly engaging with players in the game rather than keeping a narrow focus. Do you still feel like her push on Rondo was just to cause disruption? It hasn't seemed to play out that way.

Some flavor of null on Creature/Dizzy/Ender/Fingersplints/Marmot. Of those it bothers me the most that I don't have a read on Ender. In our qualifier he projected a lot of solving towniness that I don't see here, but he was also a wolf in that game, so I'm not sure how to apply that meta. Creature I haven't gotten any specific pings from; seems like there's concern that their lack of activity is telling, but I have no meta there. So I think those are my two nulls that I want to sort in some fashion.

That leaves Falcon/Rondo/Wilgy as POE, which I really don't think is the exact team because that would be wild. I'm still fine with my Falcon vote, the only thing that makes me paranoid is how many people seem to agree with me. With both Falcon and Rondo they're in my POE because I get hints of agenda poking through the fluff. Wilgy's mostly here from, well, process of elimination, but I also didn't like his reaction to a towncore forming and asked him for more thoughts on that.

it was this without any explanations, just names

This one?

I'm down.

Thank you.

One line of investigation that may be obvious but still doesn't tend to get the dedicated, systematic analysis it warrants is to individually assess the votes on the large mischop wagon of Day 1. We have a bunch of people who took part in that wagon who were all responsible for justifying their participation somehow. If we examine the full progression of each voter on their falcon reads we can try to determine with some reasonable degree of depth their sincerity.

I will likely do this myself, but two sets of eyes are better than one.

Okay so, thinking time.

Ender
Mac
Jay
Alison
Lucy
Nate
Fingersplints
Dizzy

I know I'm town
Mac flips town
I think I have a read on Dizzy town

3/8 townlock for me

I don't think there's all 3 wolves. I think 1-2.

Lucy I have a townish bend on rn.

I want to say Alison/Jay both town but I'm not 100% sure.

I'd say from that Nate/Finger needs my scrutiny most.

[robyn]

So Lucy, who in your qualifier game do you think showed the sort of tunneling/aggression that you're expecting? Just want to get a baseline.

Seven, lag kinda, Shinichi at the end + spiderz throughout and Gorta. especially seven

Mk. I'd consider Seven and Lag more aggressive than average for Champs, and I'd guess that Champs is overall more aggressive than The Syndicate (I haven't spectated here before, that's just my impression).

you were right to call me intense, good analysis. and yeah I was expecting this game to be less aggressive because of age alone, however there's always an exception to the rule

[Alison]

I want to review fingersplints after lunch, I've had a few good feelings about her but those are way too nebulous to exempt her from scrutiny entirely.

Lucy/Seanzie/Marmot was a thing that happened. I'm not sure what to think of it; I wasn't a fan of Lucy kinda flailing in response to a relatively pedastrian inquisition of her thought process. Not enough of an anti-fan to exe her today over people like Dizzy or Ender, especially with Mac's legacy having her as locktown.

[robyn]

Spoiler: show

Nate did you post a generic readlist?

I dunno, probably?

Do you know where it is? lucy and I are on a hunt for one, and she thought you'd posted it.

I think this was my biggest read post from yesterday:

JJJ def has better scum reads than me right now, & Nate's vote is lazy.



Of the 2, Nate is my pick for scum. Jay feels like he's trying to get towny activity out of me with his vote.



I have a sneaking suspicion that Maf are kinda letting town do their work for them currently, with a town voice in their crew.


So 1 Maf amongst the more vocal, with 1 -2 amongst the mid level contributors and 1-2 amongst the slanking players

Is this just a different way of saying the team is me / Sean / Marmot again?

Did you ever find the time to give me an update on the game/reads from your perspective? I asked you about it yesterday and I know you said you were still catching up.

I did not, no. There are still a few pages from yesterday during the (US) day that I haven't read, but I have more time today to catch up the rest of the way and stay current. I'll give you some thoughts, though, starting off with @JaggedJimmyJay's request for 4 town names. My top town would be JJJ, Mac, Boq, and Lucy. I know that has significant overlap with "most active". But JJJ and Boq both seem to be doing their own thing and solving independently while also making sure the overall thread state is moving in a positive direction. None of JJJ/Mac/Boq seem all that concerned with triangulating their reads so they match up (as one example, Boq's early town leans had overlap with Mac's early scum leans). Lucy I still just think is town from overall comfort level and tone. I think she'd be more self-conscious about not having reads as a wolf, especially when Mac was prodding her about it.

The tier below that (call it town leans) I'd put you (Sean) and Alison. You've trended up for me. I kind of vibed with Falcon's early read of you being "stiff", but that was mostly Day 0. I think Day 1 your pushes have made sense to me and you're poking at things in a solvey way. I had some initial concern that you were trying to keep Lucy in the POE, but you explained why Mac townleaning her stood out to you, so fine. Alison I'm townleaning at this point mostly from overlap between our town and scum piles, and she's been broadly engaging with players in the game rather than keeping a narrow focus. Do you still feel like her push on Rondo was just to cause disruption? It hasn't seemed to play out that way.

Some flavor of null on Creature/Dizzy/Ender/Fingersplints/Marmot. Of those it bothers me the most that I don't have a read on Ender. In our qualifier he projected a lot of solving towniness that I don't see here, but he was also a wolf in that game, so I'm not sure how to apply that meta. Creature I haven't gotten any specific pings from; seems like there's concern that their lack of activity is telling, but I have no meta there. So I think those are my two nulls that I want to sort in some fashion.

That leaves Falcon/Rondo/Wilgy as POE, which I really don't think is the exact team because that would be wild. I'm still fine with my Falcon vote, the only thing that makes me paranoid is how many people seem to agree with me. With both Falcon and Rondo they're in my POE because I get hints of agenda poking through the fluff. Wilgy's mostly here from, well, process of elimination, but I also didn't like his reaction to a towncore forming and asked him for more thoughts on that.

it was this without any explanations, just names

This one?

I'm down.

Thank you.

One line of investigation that may be obvious but still doesn't tend to get the dedicated, systematic analysis it warrants is to individually assess the votes on the large mischop wagon of Day 1. We have a bunch of people who took part in that wagon who were all responsible for justifying their participation somehow. If we examine the full progression of each voter on their falcon reads we can try to determine with some reasonable degree of depth their sincerity.

I will likely do this myself, but two sets of eyes are better than one.

Okay so, thinking time.

Ender
Mac
Jay
Alison
Lucy
Nate
Fingersplints
Dizzy

I know I'm town
Mac flips town
I think I have a read on Dizzy town

3/8 townlock for me

I don't think there's all 3 wolves. I think 1-2.

Lucy I have a townish bend on rn.

I want to say Alison/Jay both town but I'm not 100% sure.

I'd say from that Nate/Finger needs my scrutiny most.

if ur looking for it, start at page 34 and go below lol

[Alison]

I think one thing that bothers me about Nate is that it doesn't feel like he has any reads he's passionate about. I don't know if this is just a playstyle thing but it's what drove me to quiz him about his reads in more detail. I'm uncomfortable by the fact that his stance seems to be repeating the most uncontroversial/popular reads and then chilling and not making a massive effort to push them. I could see this coming from a townie who feels we've got the game in the bag, and I've been in that position a couple of times myself, but those were when I had big confidence in my reads and the wolves were getting crushed. This gamestate started off with a misexe and then some pretty tense/controversial interactions between players, so it doesn't feel wholly appropriate for Nate to just be sitting back and going "yep, I guess we'll just auto the guys in the middle of falcon's wagon".

[EnderWiggin]

I'll be a little busy for the next 12 hours or so, my apologies. I have skimmed fingersplint's posts this page and been left with a generally good impression. Would like more elaboration on how Ender read Dizzy's entrance; which part of it was a towntell, etc.

If I elaborate it won't work anymore lol.

Keeping a read cryptic so you can use it in future games is dumb. You have already been extremely cagey this game; I would like you to please elaborate on the tell you used to read Dizzy.

Please wait 3-5 business days for a response.

I am sorely tempted to vote you.

Do it.

[EnderWiggin]

[VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine

Honestly don't feel like you care about the current gamestate, why's that?

[Alison]

My POE as of right now is Dizzy/Ender and then Nate. fingersplints read TBD. Creature has trended up this day phase and has an endorsement from Mac so I'm ok with him for now.

[EnderWiggin]

My POE as of right now is Dizzy/Ender and then Nate. fingersplints read TBD. Creature has trended up this day phase and has an endorsement from Mac so I'm ok with him for now.

You care about Mac's endorsements but don't see any consideration of his claim he would tunnel Marmot?

[Alison]

[VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine

Honestly don't feel like you care about the current gamestate, why's that?

I thought the same thing (see above).

What's your take on Creature?

[Seanzie]

I want to review fingersplints after lunch, I've had a few good feelings about her but those are way too nebulous to exempt her from scrutiny entirely.

Lucy/Seanzie/Marmot was a thing that happened. I'm not sure what to think of it; I wasn't a fan of Lucy kinda flailing in response to a relatively pedastrian inquisition of her thought process. Not enough of an anti-fan to exe her today over people like Dizzy or Ender, especially with Mac's legacy having her as locktown.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Marmot.

[EnderWiggin]

[VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine

Honestly don't feel like you care about the current gamestate, why's that?

I thought the same thing (see above).

What's your take on Creature?

I saw that lmao.

My take on Creature is that his whole "Find a different wagon than Falcon when he was second wagon" feels town, and this feels more like his lazy towngame.

Do you think he should be scumread for his D1?

[Alison]

My POE as of right now is Dizzy/Ender and then Nate. fingersplints read TBD. Creature has trended up this day phase and has an endorsement from Mac so I'm ok with him for now.

You care about Mac's endorsements but don't see any consideration of his claim he would tunnel Marmot?

It factors into my evaluation of Marmot. His legacy is not the be all and end all of my thought process, but that claim has led me to put Marmot lower than I would have if not for his legacy. Absent Mac's message, I would probably have Marmot as a townread, and now he's more like, floating just above the POE.

When it comes to Creature, Mac's views and mine trend in the same direction so it's a much easier call to make. I try to strike a balance between respecting his thoughts and having agency and ideas of my own.

[EnderWiggin]

My POE as of right now is Dizzy/Ender and then Nate. fingersplints read TBD. Creature has trended up this day phase and has an endorsement from Mac so I'm ok with him for now.

You care about Mac's endorsements but don't see any consideration of his claim he would tunnel Marmot?

It factors into my evaluation of Marmot. His legacy is not the be all and end all of my thought process, but that claim has led me to put Marmot lower than I would have if not for his legacy. Absent Mac's message, I would probably have Marmot as a townread, and now he's more like, floating just above the POE.

When it comes to Creature, Mac's views and mine trend in the same direction so it's a much easier call to make. I try to strike a balance between respecting his thoughts and having agency and ideas of my own.

Was more a statement that you kept bringing it up to "add" to reads you were making but didn't see any comments about Marmot.

[Alison]

I want to review fingersplints after lunch, I've had a few good feelings about her but those are way too nebulous to exempt her from scrutiny entirely.

Lucy/Seanzie/Marmot was a thing that happened. I'm not sure what to think of it; I wasn't a fan of Lucy kinda flailing in response to a relatively pedastrian inquisition of her thought process. Not enough of an anti-fan to exe her today over people like Dizzy or Ender, especially with Mac's legacy having her as locktown.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Marmot.

I townread him D1 (see my D1 legacy post for details). I have been indifferent to most of his content D2, with the exception of a couple of townie moments: specifically, I think the observation that Wilgy has had a focus on Ender this day phase was one that's more likely to come from a townie scrutinizing the game in solving mode, and I think his reversal on the Wilgy read felt authentic. His questioning of JJJ's Mac-reads-project in #2028 and #2029 felt like townie paranoia as well.

I had a good impression of him D1 and it's improved on D2. As mentioned in my reply to Ender, I'm not fully clearing him yet, respecting Mac's insistence that he is suspicious if falcon flips W.

[Alison]

My POE as of right now is Dizzy/Ender and then Nate. fingersplints read TBD. Creature has trended up this day phase and has an endorsement from Mac so I'm ok with him for now.

You care about Mac's endorsements but don't see any consideration of his claim he would tunnel Marmot?

It factors into my evaluation of Marmot. His legacy is not the be all and end all of my thought process, but that claim has led me to put Marmot lower than I would have if not for his legacy. Absent Mac's message, I would probably have Marmot as a townread, and now he's more like, floating just above the POE.

When it comes to Creature, Mac's views and mine trend in the same direction so it's a much easier call to make. I try to strike a balance between respecting his thoughts and having agency and ideas of my own.

Was more a statement that you kept bringing it up to "add" to reads you were making but didn't see any comments about Marmot.

Generally when it comes to players that I vibe with like Mac and who I think (or know, in this case) are town, my approach is to try to find the Venn diagram of our reads and work in the overlap. My day 1 play was pretty much just finding the overlap between me/Mac/JJJ's scumreads and voting in that. He had a positive impression of Creature, which matches with my feeling he has trended up D2, and this is an overlap I am happy to go with. We don't agree on Marmot, evidently, which is why I don't just straight sheep his reads.

[Alison]

[VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine

Honestly don't feel like you care about the current gamestate, why's that?

I thought the same thing (see above).

What's your take on Creature?

I saw that lmao.

My take on Creature is that his whole "Find a different wagon than Falcon when he was second wagon" feels town, and this feels more like his lazy towngame.

Do you think he should be scumread for his D1?

I think I agree with you that his EOD was good with respect to that. Other than that, I did not feel his D1 was particularly impressive, but I liked his D2, because I think a scum Creature would find it very psychologically easy to do nothing on D2 after setting up with "the game is doomed, we're all fucked, we're repeating the mistakes of Champs town". Instead, he's at least attempted to contribute despite that overall sentiment, which I think is more likely to come from town who wants to perservere in the face of adversity rather than mafia who is happy to wallow in town demotivation. #2143 also strikes me as authentic, because I think if he was just throwing out an "X is unnoticeable, kinda sus" read as mafia he'd be more likely to do it on Nate and not two members of the D1 towncore.

[Alison]

Out for lunch. Be back with a fingersplints iso after.

[NateTheLesser]

@NateTheLesser I would like to hear some personal opinions from you, rather than simply reiterating data from the game like a human Modbot. What reads do you feel most strongly about? What do you think of the JJJ/Seanzie argument?

Well, I think JJJ/Sean can be added to the "not w/w" chart, for starters. I think they were talking past each other in that argument. I still trust JJJ, partly because wolves in general want to keep the POE as open as possible and looking at interactions like he's doing is a way of narrowing it. None of it is "clearing", and JJJ isn't claiming that it is, it's just a way to help focus our attention. The other two that were in my top 4 yesterday were Boq and Lucy who I still feel mostly good about, though they've both dropped off a bit today so there hasn't been as much to go on. I'm more interested in the middle Falcon voters today (Fingersplints/Creature/Dizzy/Ender), less interested in the late voters (you and Lucy jumped on near EOD when I wouldn't expect wolves to pile on a runaway town flip). I was also feeling good about Marmot going into today, mainly because I thought their reasoning for sussing Ender near EOD was a good thread to pull, and game state wise I wouldn't expect a wolf to start a late wagon when they could just coast to the misyeet that was already in progress. So the sus going their way today has me wondering if I'm missing something.

How would you rank finger/creature/dizzy/ender in order of suspicion right now, with brief reasons if possible?

They're in about that order, from most suspicion to least. What I'm looking for in the Falcon votes is people who helped it along but in such a way that they wouldn't look responsible, and both Finger and Creature fit that. Finger was using Mac's god read as cover but also said she had (unspecified) concerns of her own there. And I think the "but I've been wrong about him before" framing gives her a way to backtrack if things go a different direction. I need to look back at Creature's actual reasoning, but their vote(s) were also in the context of being self pres, so the purpose wasn't only to push Falcon. Dizzy I'm null on, I hope they have more time as the game goes on. They're disconnected but their votes haven't just been vanity wagons. Ender I would have put as more sus than Dizzy until this:

What is your goal in this game Ender?

What is your point in asking this quesiton, Marmot?

I'm trying to sort out your motives because I don't understand them, and I hope that it'll help me read you better.

I want to win, like anyone else.

I felt D1 was weird in a wolfy way and I'm trying to work out why.

I expressed that on D1 and everyone laughed.

I still felt that on N1.

Went into D2 asking why I felt that, Alison/Lucy/Jay probably has 1 wolf, probably not more but I think one.

Building my little group of townies and trying to sort wolf motivations.

I think the meme mask slipped a bit and it was actually a real post.

[Alison]

They're in about that order, from most suspicion to least. What I'm looking for in the Falcon votes is people who helped it along but in such a way that they wouldn't look responsible, and both Finger and Creature fit that. Finger was using Mac's god read as cover but also said she had (unspecified) concerns of her own there. And I think the "but I've been wrong about him before" framing gives her a way to backtrack if things go a different direction. I need to look back at Creature's actual reasoning, but their vote(s) were also in the context of being self pres, so the purpose wasn't only to push Falcon. Dizzy I'm null on, I hope they have more time as the game goes on. They're disconnected but their votes haven't just been vanity wagons. Ender I would have put as more sus than Dizzy until this:

Do you have any thoughts on the way Dizzy has played D2? Why is it significant or townie that Dizzy's posts aren't just on vanity wagons, since disconnected players are likely to just vote on the popular wagons in general? And, what about that post of Ender's struck you as particularly authentic, such that you got the impression of the mask slipping when you read it?

[NateTheLesser]

I think one thing that bothers me about Nate is that it doesn't feel like he has any reads he's passionate about. I don't know if this is just a playstyle thing but it's what drove me to quiz him about his reads in more detail. I'm uncomfortable by the fact that his stance seems to be repeating the most uncontroversial/popular reads and then chilling and not making a massive effort to push them. I could see this coming from a townie who feels we've got the game in the bag, and I've been in that position a couple of times myself, but those were when I had big confidence in my reads and the wolves were getting crushed. This gamestate started off with a misexe and then some pretty tense/controversial interactions between players, so it doesn't feel wholly appropriate for Nate to just be sitting back and going "yep, I guess we'll just auto the guys in the middle of falcon's wagon".

Honestly I've been in an unusual position (for me) both days where I've started a wagon and had it turn into something without really having to push for it. If I feel strongly about something in the early game I'm usually off on my own and have to convince people to join, and I get a lot out of the debate involved in that and having people question my read if they disagree. Yesterday I think Mac giving his full throated blessing to the Falcon wagon was why it turned into a consensus chop. As for today, I do think FIngersplints could be a hit, but it's become a wagon again without much resistance (and not a whole lot of reasoning from Rondo or Dizzy when they joined). So I'm very interested in your take on Fingersplints, especially since we seem to disagree.

[Boquise]

Creature has several strings of posts next to each other containing game related stuff. I am still peeved by him ignoring my question, but I have learned the hard way that someone ignoring you doesn't make them scum.

I lean him town because of the post strings (on phone rn so can't quote them).

I had early misgivings on Falcon due to his change of tone from the quali, but I decided to not push there but read what else he'd produce, since it is a weak thing to scum read someone for. The fact that Falcon got pushed by a few peeps made me think that Falcon could be a set-up for D1 misyeet but I haven't really felt any townie vibes from Falcon so..

Marmot is the player has the most scum equity. He isn't taking part of much discussion, is basically just there trying to stay relevant. However now when I know that he has been away because of allergies, it does feel like my conclusion is made on wrong premises. Again, I am comparing qualis, but I wolf read Marmot that game and he was town. He also contributed a lot to discussion. Now I have felt some of Marmot's posts surface townie but lacking in content. Another thing is Marmot complaining about us posting a lot, when he was a high poster in his quali.

Those are my takes

To address Boq's suspicion of me from Day 1.

I'd intended to be active earlier, but wasn't in the space to do so as I've said. I think it's reasonable to expect more from me, and now that I've delivered I expect a revised read from you at some point.

Sure! Looking forward to it tbh

[Alison]

fingersplints' ISO:

Nate has identified #1325 as a particularly sketchy post, because it shifts responsibility for the falcon exe onto Mac, and also hedges her own stance on falcon. I tend to agree with Nate here, and think it's a bad look for fingersplints.

I didn't like #1363 either. She says that she's contemplating where we should vote if we misexe on D1, but there's no followup, and I don't see her talking about the results of this contemplation later on, even where it is appropriate and natural to do so (eg. in #1458 where she is talking about how she wouldn't mind a falcon flip as it would give lots of interactives to figure out where to vote next). Alarmingly, she also does not bring up the results of this contemplation when we do end up missing D1. This suggests that she was just saying it to look like she was solving without actually putting in real analysis or thought into where we should go if our D1 flips green.

I didn't like #2012 either because it looks like her taking a cheap shot at Boquise's attempts to read into Mac's legacy. I'm generally pretty skeptical of discrediting a strong townie's legacy completely or brushing off nightkills as "who knows?" without at least trying to read into them.

She then proceeds to claim that she thought Boquise was treated as null by the rest of the thread, when in my view he was clearly being treated as consensus town. This might be a good sign for her, because it suggests that she is distinctly uninformed: I think she would likely know how the thread is treating Boquise more accurately if she was in scum chat and had partners to catch her up.

In #2128, she says she's interested in taking a closer look at Creature, but then doesn't mention Creature again. Votes for Dizzy instead in #2133 - which is a reasonable vote, but her interest in Creature seems to have mysteriously vanished.

-

Overall, I'd say that I came out of fingersplints' ISO with a markedly worse impression of her before. I broadly agree with Nate's claim that her vote on falcon was hedgy and accountability-dodging, and I'd add that at two separate points in the game she indicates she'll look into something and then never brings it up or mentions it again, even when it would be very natural to do so.

Based off this, I'd be happy to back a fingersplints wagon, and have her in my bottom POE.

[Alison]

[VOTE: fingersplints] aubergine

[Boquise]

Nate, I have almost finished reading your quali. What are the main things you learned from that game? And what is it you want to do different in this one?

[NateTheLesser]

They're in about that order, from most suspicion to least. What I'm looking for in the Falcon votes is people who helped it along but in such a way that they wouldn't look responsible, and both Finger and Creature fit that. Finger was using Mac's god read as cover but also said she had (unspecified) concerns of her own there. And I think the "but I've been wrong about him before" framing gives her a way to backtrack if things go a different direction. I need to look back at Creature's actual reasoning, but their vote(s) were also in the context of being self pres, so the purpose wasn't only to push Falcon. Dizzy I'm null on, I hope they have more time as the game goes on. They're disconnected but their votes haven't just been vanity wagons. Ender I would have put as more sus than Dizzy until this:

Do you have any thoughts on the way Dizzy has played D2? Why is it significant or townie that Dizzy's posts aren't just on vanity wagons, since disconnected players are likely to just vote on the popular wagons in general? And, what about that post of Ender's struck you as particularly authentic, such that you got the impression of the mask slipping when you read it?

I really don't know how to read them, and players with more experience with them like Jay seem to be fine with giving them a pass for now. I've gotten the sense that their votes are more intentional than just "show up, vote the top wagon, dip". I don't think it's townie necessarily; if they're a wolf it could be a way to use inactivity as cover to vote in a way that's helpful to the team.

The Ender post feels like his real take on the gamestate, as opposed to the deflection he's been answering other questions with.

[Alison]

The only point of hesitation for me is the fact that she looked weirdly uninformed about the Boquise thing. But I don't think it's clearing - maybe scum chat is dead, maybe she checks scum chat as infrequently as she checks the main thread (which would make sense if she's busy IRL), maybe she's just savvy enough to fake a derp clear. She did fool us all in Fargo.

It's not enough to make me pull back from voting her.

[Boquise]

I think Ender's sporadic unwillingness to cooperate is rand>town tbh

[Boquise]

The only point of hesitation for me is the fact that she looked weirdly uninformed about the Boquise thing. But I don't think it's clearing - maybe scum chat is dead, maybe she checks scum chat as infrequently as she checks the main thread (which would make sense if she's busy IRL), maybe she's just savvy enough to fake a derp clear. She did fool us all in Fargo.

It's not enough to make me pull back from voting her.

What struck me was that, imo, she sounded slightly passive-aggressive when I asked her if she hadn't read the read posts of others.

[Boquise]

[VOTE: lucy] aubergine

if I was mafia would I be clumsy enough to make that read when I didn't have to?

I wouldn't call it impossible, but I also unfortunately don't know the answer to that question because I don't know you.

You probably wouldn't, but I've seen extremely skilled players make silly mistakes before so

Why is it scummy to inaccurately describe another player's play in a game tbh?