Halvøsen Ridge [MAFIA WIN]

[Dyslexicon]

I think Fingers is town, which makes @Alison’s current track record this game really bad.

[Dyslexicon]

I was trying not to think about the game baiii

[fingersplints]

So I just read both Wilgy and falcon ISO because both dead town, and both small qty so I can

Some bad reads there but both express suspect of Ender, especially Wilgy.

I want to look into something but have to go now because baby woke

[fingersplints]

Hey falcon.

Nate, let's vote Ender.




For revenge

What has Nate/Ender interactions been like?

[NateTheLesser]

Why are the names Alison/Boq/JJJ often being tossed around together? I think I get it, in that they were unanimously townread early on, but I think Jay has had a much more significant impact on the game than either of the other two. Also Rondo and Nate have been more fairly consensus town I think than any of those three.

I have seen luc, Dizzy, and fingersplints all do this btw

So where should we be looking?

My initial thought is that yes there is a wolf in that group, but that group is being discussed together in an attempt to distract from who the actual wolf is and increase the likelihood of missing if we decide to elim in that group.

JJJ is receiving far more heat from the rest of the game than the other two, and my gut feeling is that means that JJJ is a miss.

Who is most likely to be the wolf in these groups?
Alison/Ender/Marmot
Dizzy/JJJ/Rondo
Boq/Creature/Nate
fingersplints/Lucy

Where did these groupings come from?

[NateTheLesser]

Why are the names Alison/Boq/JJJ often being tossed around together? I think I get it, in that they were unanimously townread early on, but I think Jay has had a much more significant impact on the game than either of the other two. Also Rondo and Nate have been more fairly consensus town I think than any of those three.

I have seen luc, Dizzy, and fingersplints all do this btw

I didn’t create the grouping. I’m just making a concerted effort to talk about what the group is discussing that isn’t just about me, and since I was asked about jay and boq it seemed relevant to talk about them as a trio since I heard that group mentioned

Have you stated an opinion on Alison? If not, do you have one?

I do think I’ve mentioned her, but tbh I have no idea what my stance was on her anymore. She’s gone off my radar for the most part.
She feels a bit off but in a way that is probably NAI so tough to read

Who do you have the strongest read on right now?

[NateTheLesser]

Hey falcon.

Nate, let's vote Ender.




For revenge

;)

What has Nate/Ender interactions been like?

Mutual suspicion, mostly. (me/Ender/Falcon were in the same qualifier and Ender won as a wolf, so that's what that quoted exchange was in reference to)

[NateTheLesser]

Let's ISO fingersplints

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

I vibe with the discomfort, though. It seems pretty common on MU to offer early reads on the whole player list, which is foreign to me.

Speaking for myself, I like making day 1 reads because:

1. It causes people to do shit
2. My ability to make reads doesn't require heaps of content and tbh sometimes it's hindered by it... I would say in the main my reads have an arc curve in terms of accuracy. They start off good, get worse during mid game, and then get good at endgame lol.

Yeah. I guess I'm pro-"day 1 reads", anti-"day 1 reads for the sake of having a read". It can be difficult to tell the difference between a read that feels fake because a wolf is trying to appear uninformed, and a read that feels fake because a townie felt like they should have an opinion and came up with something.

I consistently fall into the category of townie feeling forced to post day 1 despite not having solid suspicions. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, but I really admire all of you who are able to come up with this stuff right away for sake of discussion. Takes me days to get into a game.

For what it's worth, this is generally a true account of the fingersplints experience.

Spoiler: show

Town falcon pretty much always talks about/suspects me early. Him noticing and commenting on a vote of me isn’t at all surprising to me if he were town

I also don't think a team of DrWilgy and falcon would both attempt to simultaneously scumread a town!Mac (in this gamestate).

I’ve been burned by this kind of logic before

falcon, what's your Mac read exactly? You've been picking apart his posts, but you don't seem like you're gearing up for a push. I struggle to see what you're getting at.

67% town, I don't think scum Mac would push my ML so hard. I'd say his gut feel is real, it's just wrong.

yeah but like, as town I'm never wrong on you so you shouldn't think I'm town lol

Can anyone vouch for Mac never being wrong as town about falcon?

Gth I’d say I’m townleaning mac, and scumleaning falcon so considering following that vote but I have reservations as I always think falcon is scum and have been wrong

yeah but like, as town I'm never wrong on you so you shouldn't think I'm town lol

Can anyone vouch for Mac never being wrong as town about falcon?

Gth I’d say I’m townleaning mac, and scumleaning falcon so considering following that vote but I have reservations as I always think falcon is scum and have been wrong

Have you played with scum!Falcon?

Yes

👍

Are you scumleaning Falcon due to that past experience, or what's feeding that scumlean?

Just a vibe based on past experiences and general tone in posts in this game.

It’s not great and completely vague, so I apologise to everyone and falcon. I wish I had more to go off of, but day 1 is rough

[VOTE: falcon] aubergine

I put fingersplints' full progression on falcon up to her vote into a single spoiler for clarity. This moment is very important for interpreting fingersplints and demands a careful assessment. Follow the color coding.

Orange - if we are precise with splints' language, then this comment need not be interpreted as a town read of falcon. Instead, it's something tangential, a base assertion of "town-compatibility" -- e.g., falcon talking about splints doesn't preclude him from being town. This isn't necessarily "better" or "worse", but the interpretation is necessary to assess the progression.

Green - this is, in a sense, a sort of inverse of the orange thing. "Town falcon always suspects me" vs. "I always suspect town falcon". While that hedge is ugly at face value, I think I am more interested in splints' appeal to Mac's read. This alleviates some of the burden of blame given the doubts splints has expressed. It's not my favorite couple of sentences in the game.

Red - mafia actively apologizing to the town member they're suspecting isn't the most typical thing. It's hard to take confidence in such a thing, but it's at least unusual.

We should also note the timestamps. These posts are generally separated by hours, so the progression, if we assume there to be one, primarily exists outside the game thread -- hypothetically in splints' head as she periodically visits the game and reviews. This all transpires within the space of splints' 5th and 19th posts in the thread, so there isn't a lot else going on in her ISO through this period.

The falcon vote made the poll tally 3-3-2, falcon-Creature-Dizzy, with a little over four hours remaining in the day. In that sense it is moderately important.

Spoiler: show

Well I wasn’t wrong that when I think he is scum, he is town. :p It was a weak day 1 vote based off of general vibes and tone, so I can see why my vote should be looked at because I think it was a pretty lame and vague vote but just because it’s a bad vote it doesn’t come from a bad/scum place. As I expressed in the post you linked, I didn’t want it to be a tie and no result. While this obviously wasn’t the desired result, at least we have something to work with.

Early in Day 2, Nate took issue with splints' progression above and voted for her. This was splints' response. Her reference to wanting to avoid a tie can be seen here (click). That's a bit curious since her vote made it a tie, and it was still a tie here. I won't scream about that too much since there were four hours to resolve it. Otherwise this defense is exactly ~okay. It's about the only thing there is to say regardless of splints' alignment, and it doesn't make me feel better or worse.

Spoiler: show

I'm about to lose the rest of this evening to work, so I hope folks get engaged here. The game is kind of dead apart from my analysis and Sean hating it. :meany:

I like your guys little back and forth there :meany:

I'm about to lose the rest of this evening to work, so I hope folks get engaged here. The game is kind of dead apart from my analysis and Sean hating it. :meany:

I like your guys little back and forth there :meany:

Do you have any thoughts on our alignments based on our little back and forth?

T/T

It’s important to not get to comfortable with town consensus, so while I don’t agree with your assessment of Jay but I really like where it’s coming from

This related to Seanzie's interrogation of me. splints liked the back-and-forth, and when prompted called it T/T. I'm wary of that as a naked read. T/T combat is not something to celebrate generally, and I think there's room for TMI here. I asked splints about it later, and she replied here (click). I think the answer is mostly fine. It didn't change her view of me, and it gave her a good impression for Seanzie.

Spoiler: show

Also back to this post

Sure

You are appreciated.

The last thing I was hoping to achieve is the classical night kill analysis. Many people balk at the very idea of trying this, and I think they're wrong. Wifom is wifom blah blah, but we're remiss if we don't at least take a look. Moreover, in a mountainous game, at least one of the layers of wifom does not exist -- there are no doctor dodges. So it'd behoove us to review Mac and see where he sat. What we do with that I don't know right now, but we honor his memory enough to give him a voice.

If that's something that tickles you, I'd love to see what you come up with.

I kinda expected to be the kill because I was during D1 consensus town read with no on-going conflicts with other players. Whereas Mac, also highly town read, had a thing with Wilgy that could be exploited and easier to tinfoil because of Falcon and of site history*.

*What I mean with site history is that I am an unknown variable whilst Mac is a tried gun.

This tells me that Mac's reads can have threatened the woofs tbh

Was Boquise “consensus town read”? I don’t have a read on them yet so to me this reads a lot like saying you are town to try and seem townier, but I don’t recall ever playing with Boquise or paying that much attention yet to others mentions of them

I base it off other players' read lists tbh. You didnt read those posts?

Nah I read them. I don’t remember every single mention of you though and my recollection of you was more as null over consensus town, so that’s why I’m asking others.

To anyone who is voting for fingersplints, here's a couple links to recent wolf games from her.

Fargo Mafia - ok this was from a year ago. This is one of fs's most active games I've seen, she spent a lot of time early on talking about pretty much anything but reads, and even her reads were not very strong at the start.
Mafia Syndicate Normal Game - this is from a few months ago, fs barely posted, and her posts were all very short, and she does seem stilted in this one.

I'm not seeing either of these things from her. Yes fingersplints doesn't post a lot, but that is normal for her (and really it's that the rest of us just post way too much). What I have seen here is an almost immediate attempt to generate reads, explain them, and she's also considering how the game will play out based on flips and looking ahead, an approach which appears to be lacking in her scum meta.

I'd call her town right now.

Does Finger tend to use aggressive phrasing as town when questioned?

Have I used aggressive phrasing?

Also thanks to those who answered my question about Boq. The wording is less weird since they do seem to be considered town, however it does still ping me a little when anyone talks about them myself in terms of being so town.
They are still null for me I guess

This is a unique stretch of posts for splints. She may have been, at this stage of the game, the only person challenging Boquise in some capacity. I find myself torn between to seemingly incompatible interpretations:

1) It's good for fingersplints to challenge a player who is broadly town read. That indicates a degree of courage, and a willingness to solve on her own accord without regard for the consensus.

2) She didn't seem to be aware of the consensus, so I'm not sure #1 is applicable. Instead, I have to ask myself to what extent she has read the thread -- less ideal.

Spoiler: show

Celebrating my 10000 posts anniversary by mentioning I'm happy to be a part of this community,
and to be floating around in the larger mafia community multiverse.

I still remember how welcoming everyone was when I played my first games here at Cindy Kate! :hug:

Hopefully, we can continue to have fun with this silly or deep game!

Maybe the real wolves were the friends we made along the way.

:cloud9:

Congrats :yay:

A vote for you to celebrate

[VOTE: Dizzy] aubergine

:p

That's a hell of a way to celebrate someone's love for the community. :goofp:

This vote placed Dizzy in the poll lead at 3-2 (over splints herself). This was still early in Day 2, and the vote is presented like a joke (click here), but it should still be acknowledged for the dynamics that make it relevant.

Spoiler: show

4 votes lol
Honestly couldn’t have picked a worse day to take the vote lead
I almost want to lament the real life reasons behind my absence just to annoy Rondo :p
I’ll see what I can do

This is a jovial reception of suspicion. I appreciate you splints regardless of alignment. Keep vibing.

Spoiler: show

I also hate that it’s tied me and Marmot. I don’t want to be forced to vote practically my only defender but I definitely won’t make it awake til EOD today

I can understand the sentiment. I'm not sure if this qualifies as a town read of Marmot rather than an observation "that he's defending me". Just making a note for progression.

Spoiler: show

I also hate that it’s tied me and Marmot. I don’t want to be forced to vote practically my only defender but I definitely won’t make it awake til EOD today

Who do you want to vote?

If my vote wasn’t going to end up self pres, I’d probably
Pick creature or maybe Ender due to I felt (and I wasn’t around for the end of day so maybe I’m wrong with this as it’s to the best of my recollection) but I felt like the falcon wagon caught most steam when creature was a nominee yesterday. And less mention of someone in the hot spot always makes me kind of wary. Like where did that suspicion go.

Ender I thought was sounding ok, but my opinion there has reversed. He sounds less confident than I remember town Ender to be and I would expect stronger town lead. Idk he would also be my answer to the question someone posed to everyone who would they check.
When reading his posts yesterday my initial thought was also him and rondo weren’t paired, because they are friends but interacting way too much in the thread. I don’t think partners even friends would be that blatant. But then I keep going back to one post of his in my head where I felt he was almost annoyed rondo kept mentioning him, so it’s made me question that thought as well.
Sorry again cause I don’t plan on going back to find those posts, but at least if I don’t make it today there’s some food for thought for you guys lol

This is a unique perspective of Ender that I am not sure I have seen from someone else in the game -- specifically that he is less confident or less leader-like that his standard town form (I cannot speak to this, as I don't know his play well at all). If splints is town, then this read may reflect a standard example of "POE town-aligned suspect views the game from a unique perspective since they don't have to solve themself", which might also relate to her doubts about Boquise. That'd be a decent thing.

Spoiler: show

Switched to [VOTE: creature] aubergine

This vote brought Creature to 2 votes, tied with Wilgy and behind Marmot and fingersplints herself (3 each). She held true to her desire to avoid self-pres voting for her defender. Her vote remained on Creature for the rest of Day 2. She didn't prioritize self-preservation, granted she was away for the final 3-4 hours of the phase.

Spoiler: show

@Boquise i wasn’t planning on bringing it up because it’s about me, subjective, and not really something proveable but I don’t buy Alison here:

The only point of hesitation for me is the fact that she looked weirdly uninformed about the Boquise thing. But I don't think it's clearing - maybe scum chat is dead, maybe she checks scum chat as infrequently as she checks the main thread (which would make sense if she's busy IRL), maybe she's just savvy enough to fake a derp clear. She did fool us all in Fargo.

It's not enough to make me pull back from voting her.

Kinda wishy washy

And I don’t believe I fooled anyone in Fargo. My team was all killed pretty early, I struggled then was pretty much unanimously voted for as I trolled everyone on my way out since it was so obvious? I don’t recall it all which is why I tried to look it up but meh hard to prove. Just seems like the “hesitation” she mentions is forced and preemptive for when I come back as town

(this answers my which and why game question from before)
Why is it wishy-washy, or rather, scummy wishy-washiness?

I don’t know if wishy washy is the right word I was looking for tbh but it’s like she took what someone used to “clear” or “townread” me and discredited it some but with a lot of maybes and references a game in which as I said was absolutely not a strong one for me

Note to self to look back at Fargo to make more sense of this dialogue.

Conclusion

There are some moments here that I think demand further discussion, particularly from folks that view fingersplints as a premier elimination option on this Day 3. Take a look at her treatment of Boquise, and her final voting actions on Day 2, and provide a mafia account for them. I am not saying there isn't an account -- but it's something I want to see folks take a stab at. I'd also like to see folks town reading splints to examine her posts through a lens other than meta. This is a read that we need to develop more effectively as a group. I have some nickle-and-dime concerns around this ISO and would not remove splints from the POE pool. Also, a separate concern not addressed by the above content: splints has only acknowledged Wilgy's existence once in this game, and it was to shrug. She's known him as long as anyone, so that strikes me as off.

Treatment of Boq: by this you mean not realizing he was widely townread? She hasn't had time to keep up with the thread, which is NAI. So the question is whether she would have known about his thread position from wolf chat, and I don't think that's a guarantee. I agree that it's a point in her favor, but it's also possible that Boq just wasn't a topic of conversation.

EOD2: the scumread on this is a wolf who won't be around for the rest of the day and thinks there's at least a decent chance they get chopped, doesn't say much concrete that would point to partners or town clear anyone, and puts down a vote and hopes for the best.

[fingersplints]

Why are the names Alison/Boq/JJJ often being tossed around together? I think I get it, in that they were unanimously townread early on, but I think Jay has had a much more significant impact on the game than either of the other two. Also Rondo and Nate have been more fairly consensus town I think than any of those three.

I have seen luc, Dizzy, and fingersplints all do this btw

So where should we be looking?

My initial thought is that yes there is a wolf in that group, but that group is being discussed together in an attempt to distract from who the actual wolf is and increase the likelihood of missing if we decide to elim in that group.

JJJ is receiving far more heat from the rest of the game than the other two, and my gut feeling is that means that JJJ is a miss.

Who is most likely to be the wolf in these groups?
Alison/Ender/Marmot
Dizzy/JJJ/Rondo
Boq/Creature/Nate
fingersplints/Lucy

Where did these groupings come from?

Why are the names Alison/Boq/JJJ often being tossed around together? I think I get it, in that they were unanimously townread early on, but I think Jay has had a much more significant impact on the game than either of the other two. Also Rondo and Nate have been more fairly consensus town I think than any of those three.

I have seen luc, Dizzy, and fingersplints all do this btw

So where should we be looking?

My initial thought is that yes there is a wolf in that group, but that group is being discussed together in an attempt to distract from who the actual wolf is and increase the likelihood of missing if we decide to elim in that group.

JJJ is receiving far more heat from the rest of the game than the other two, and my gut feeling is that means that JJJ is a miss.

Who is most likely to be the wolf in these groups?
Alison/Ender/Marmot
Dizzy/JJJ/Rondo
Boq/Creature/Nate
fingersplints/Lucy

Ender (although my view of Alison is changing in this moment)
JJJ
Boq
lucy

Did you pick these groups for any particular reason?

Similar posting, playstyle, vibes or just by process of elimination they ended up in that group

Assorted reasons basically doesn’t mean much tbh

But also trying to avoid more common grouping like Alison/boq/jjj

[Boquise]

I'm not sure I agree as much as the rest of you that NKA points so strongly to a wolf in Jay/Boq/Alison, YET. I think that would be true if the thread consensus yesterday had been that there must be a wolf in those three, but that wasn't the thread consensus IMO. (Not that it couldn't be true, I just don't think the Sean kill should make us tinfoil that trio without other reasons to tinfoil).

I'm not sure that I follow. Is there a way that you could re-word or re-state the orange portion?

Sure. Not to make everything about champs, but, I think the pattern that Boq is applying is that there were some games where it became notable that a certain group of "known to be good at the game" players weren't being NK'd (the game with Nanook/Jack/Dobby is one), and the thread consensus became that the group can't be all pure, and because there was a wolf in that group they continued to kill elsewhere so as not to narrow that "POE". And I'm saying I don't think we match that pattern at this point, because "there must be a wolf in Jay/Boq/Alison" was not a consensus yesterday.

lets just depart to standard game stuff tbh
If 1 wolf gets put in the strong town group of a game, there will later be issues for said wolf. "Why are you still alive?"
Wolf can choose between two things: a) play delibaretely worse than the other strong town. b) kill outside of the group, but not inside the poe. When the "Why are you still alive" question occurs, there will be other players that question can be applied to as well.

Though I will won't discuss that much more since it is game theory tbh

@Alison
@Boquise
@Dyslexicon
@JaggedJimmyJay
@lucy
Why are you still alive?

because i am trudging along with minimal pushes tbh

[Boquise]

I see that I am being voted by the meme lord and JJJ tbh
alrightie

[fingersplints]

Hey falcon.

Nate, let's vote Ender.




For revenge

What has Nate/Ender interactions been like?

Mutual suspicion, mostly. (me/Ender/Falcon were in the same qualifier and Ender won as a wolf, so that's what that quoted exchange was in reference to)

Hmm I gathered the reason for the comment
Trying to deduce likely connection in this game
Will have to loook Later or see if anyone else answers

[NateTheLesser]

Why are the names Alison/Boq/JJJ often being tossed around together? I think I get it, in that they were unanimously townread early on, but I think Jay has had a much more significant impact on the game than either of the other two. Also Rondo and Nate have been more fairly consensus town I think than any of those three.

I have seen luc, Dizzy, and fingersplints all do this btw

So where should we be looking?

My initial thought is that yes there is a wolf in that group, but that group is being discussed together in an attempt to distract from who the actual wolf is and increase the likelihood of missing if we decide to elim in that group.

JJJ is receiving far more heat from the rest of the game than the other two, and my gut feeling is that means that JJJ is a miss.

Who is most likely to be the wolf in these groups?
Alison/Ender/Marmot
Dizzy/JJJ/Rondo
Boq/Creature/Nate
fingersplints/Lucy

Where did these groupings come from?

I have seen luc, Dizzy, and fingersplints all do this btw

So where should we be looking?

My initial thought is that yes there is a wolf in that group, but that group is being discussed together in an attempt to distract from who the actual wolf is and increase the likelihood of missing if we decide to elim in that group.

JJJ is receiving far more heat from the rest of the game than the other two, and my gut feeling is that means that JJJ is a miss.

Who is most likely to be the wolf in these groups?
Alison/Ender/Marmot
Dizzy/JJJ/Rondo
Boq/Creature/Nate
fingersplints/Lucy

Ender (although my view of Alison is changing in this moment)
JJJ
Boq
lucy

Did you pick these groups for any particular reason?

Similar posting, playstyle, vibes or just by process of elimination they ended up in that group

Assorted reasons basically doesn’t mean much tbh

But also trying to avoid more common grouping like Alison/boq/jjj

Do you think the people in each group are unpartnered in some way? Like you wouldn't expect >1 wolf in any particular group?

[Boquise]

I have gripes with Alison again. Unless Fingers is mafia, she is way off.

@Boquise You're pointing out that you think there's mafia between you/Alison/Jimmay, yet I don't see you go hard in figuring out which one (or both) of Alison and Jimmay that is. What gives?

See it as "Boq has limited time and stressing and also a bit of a coward because what if he is wrong he needs to analyse more aaaaaaaa"

Why should I see it as that? That leaves me very unsatisfied. I'd expect you to dig way more into Jimmay and Alison. You have the chance. You don't seem to have that much time constraints that you can't follow the game. I hear you on the coward thing, but please uncoward yourself if you're town here.

I am on extreme time constraints right now when it comes to making larger, deep reads because that requires brain power I currently dont have. It is what it is.

[Boquise]

So like I could sit here and bs a read on you that looks good on paper because I am aware that I have a good tone. Like just to prove a point I could do that, but that would be a waste of time since it is hollow and not something I am married to. Why am I not bs'ing elegant reads, iyo? Like my Marmot read was based on small feels/vibes + thread state where I localised through PoE who, on D1, that could be the likeliest scum. But that is a read made after not reading much. Had I been online at eod, I would have voted Falcon. I am aware that my Marmot thing is an eyebrow-raiser. Here lies another wifom question: as scum, and regardless of Marmot's alignment, would I let my one vote and one harder d1 scum lean be so underdeveloped and then visibly not care that much about it the next day phase?

I don't quite understand this paragraph. It's a bit all over the place. To answer the orange question: sure, that seems plausible for mafia you. I'm not sure I would give many players that particular brand of credit if anyone. I have to make some generous assumptions to discard you as a suspect on that basis.

Nope, that is not mafia me, since my strongest trait as mafia is understanding the thread and what's wolfy/townie on a surface tbh.
Anyway, whatever tbh

[Boquise]

I wish I had tried to force people who ignored that exercise to do it tbh
I dont think you have been pushed hard or a lot for the cop thing so "I'm sick of hearing" is quite strong language tbh

The exercise was nice because I think it for one shows where one's mind is focused, for two it does show some associatives tbh

The dialogue leaves me rather titled.

Separately, you had said that my choice for a "cop check" on Wilgy played into your decision to vote for Wilgy. That doesn't sit right with me. As I said before, eliminating someone is very different from a hypothetical cop ID, and treating "let's literally flip the player's role card" as a substitute is both opportunistic and it transfers some weight of blame to me for an elimination that I did not vote for.

Well thats your opinion and stuff, but it doesn't make me wolfy. Remember that after I said I wanted to cop check Alison, I also voted Alison. You can disagree with the philosophy, you can disagree with the line of thinking, but you cannot add "opportunism" to it since it is coherent with how I played with my own cop check.

[Boquise]

@lucy I am currently reading your quali. Why does this game feel much harder than G7

You know. Its been kinda bugging me this whole time that you keep talking to people about their qualifier like that is the end all and be all of their play. Do you personally believe they HAVE to act like they did in the game you read or are you just trying to figure out why they are different? It comes across as slight shade? Maybe I just dont like authority figures.

That said the question on its own is a good question

I realise I base a lot of it, but those games are highly intensive where players high-effort, and I am currently spending 80% of my free time reading them and writing notes about them, so they are clearly on my mind. I also solve by looking at singular players' games to attempt creating a profile of how they approach games. To find trends and patterns, because I absolutely suck as town and making reads. I am however asking Lucy this because she directly referred to her own qualifier in her post, hence the relevance of that question.

[Boquise]

@Boquise Why are you always waiting so long before you place a vote? Is that normal for you?

It has become normal nowadays as I try to change the way I play as town. I dont feel confident with reads and I rather ask questions and poke around tbh.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Well thats your opinion and stuff, but it doesn't make me wolfy. Remember that after I said I wanted to cop check Alison, I also voted Alison. You can disagree with the philosophy, you can disagree with the line of thinking, but you cannot add "opportunism" to it since it is coherent with how I played with my own cop check.

I most certainly can call it that. First of all, translating a hypothetical cop check to "let's kill them" is not a sensible premise in the first place. Second of all, the vote that counts was on DrWilgy.

[Boquise]

I still think Jimmay is probably just mafia, and that view hasn't changed.

I'm almost certain the three of Boq/Alison/Jimmay contains at the very least 1 mafia. I do not see team combinations or individual scum reads enough outside of those that would work.

mmmmmmh

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I see that I am being voted by the meme lord and JJJ tbh
alrightie

What is this post?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What do you make of the ego that's been bleeding through? I have some hesitation there, but I also don't know if he's openly confident as a wolf. Things like gloating about his 100% Mac read rate, a comment that was something like "I always win as a wolf if I live past day two, so if you don't catch me today it'll be too late".

I don't think this is a reason to town read Boquise. Indeed his more prominent town reputation is one of turbulence and lower confidence than one of ego, at least as far as I have seen.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I see that I am being voted by the meme lord and JJJ tbh
alrightie

What is this post?

I'm not thrilled with Rondo's vote being relegated to "meme lord".

[Boquise]

Well thats your opinion and stuff, but it doesn't make me wolfy. Remember that after I said I wanted to cop check Alison, I also voted Alison. You can disagree with the philosophy, you can disagree with the line of thinking, but you cannot add "opportunism" to it since it is coherent with how I played with my own cop check.

I most certainly can call it that. First of all, translating a hypothetical cop check to "let's kill them" is not a sensible premise in the first place. Second of all, the vote that counts was on DrWilgy.

Well then, I still don't think it is opportunistic. I have not blamed you for it. It was one of the reasons why I thought it would be interesting to flip Wilgy tbh.
What I tried to point out there is that my thought progression is coherent and not random desperate plays. There is thought and reason behind my posts, that is what I am trying to say about my Alison vote. Not just that I suddenly thought "oh yeh lets vote Wilgy's because JJJ said this".

[Boquise]

I see that I am being voted by the meme lord and JJJ tbh
alrightie

What is this post?

I'm not thrilled with Rondo's vote being relegated to "meme lord".

it is a compliment tbh. I was debating writing "fellow meme lord" but feared you accuse me of being pocketry tbh

[Boquise]

What do you make of the ego that's been bleeding through? I have some hesitation there, but I also don't know if he's openly confident as a wolf. Things like gloating about his 100% Mac read rate, a comment that was something like "I always win as a wolf if I live past day two, so if you don't catch me today it'll be too late".

I don't think this is a reason to town read Boquise. Indeed his more prominent town reputation is one of turbulence and lower confidence than one of ego, at least as far as I have seen.

I believe that in every town game I have played the last two years, I have stated absolute confidence in my scum game.
The same can be said when I play as scum. So that is NAI.

I think it is pretty clear however that I display low confidence in this game too tbh

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Well then, I still don't think it is opportunistic. I have not blamed you for it. It was one of the reasons why I thought it would be interesting to flip Wilgy tbh.
What I tried to point out there is that my thought progression is coherent and not random desperate plays. There is thought and reason behind my posts, that is what I am trying to say about my Alison vote. Not just that I suddenly thought "oh yeh lets vote Wilgy's because JJJ said this".

"Blame" may not be the best word. But for my name to appear in your rationale for voting a guy that I suggested not voting for -- that's a dissolution of burden of responsibility, at least in part, to me. It doesn't need to be stated outright. I don't think it's "desperate" or even "incoherent". I don't think those things are necessarily alignment indicative.

[Boquise]

At this point I think JJJ just really really really want me to be scum and that's that. Idk what that makes of his alignment.

I also feel like Fingers is being grouped with me, and I am not sure if that is an attempt to chainsaw two misyeets (if Fingers is town), or misclear Fingers (if she is scum). I think what I have said about her and my progression to make sense though tbh.

Either way, I understand why I am scum read. I have failed to play at an acceptable level and that's on me. I underestimated how much I would struggle with my other duties. The only thing that tilts me is how JJJ and Dizzy try to make it sound like I am lying about that tbh. It is what it is though. Hopefully I can get to play another game here when I can devote 100% of my brain to it tbh.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Either way, I understand why I am scum read. I have failed to play at an acceptable level and that's on me. I underestimated how much I would struggle with my other duties. The only thing that tilts me is how JJJ and Dizzy try to make it sound like I am lying about that tbh. It is what it is though. Hopefully I can get to play another game here when I can devote 100% of my brain to it tbh.

I don't think you're lying about your other duties (and I haven't said such a thing). I know you're doing jury and probably other Boquise things too. I'm just working with the material in the game thread.

[Boquise]

Well then, I still don't think it is opportunistic. I have not blamed you for it. It was one of the reasons why I thought it would be interesting to flip Wilgy tbh.
What I tried to point out there is that my thought progression is coherent and not random desperate plays. There is thought and reason behind my posts, that is what I am trying to say about my Alison vote. Not just that I suddenly thought "oh yeh lets vote Wilgy's because JJJ said this".

"Blame" may not be the best word. But for my name to appear in your rationale for voting a guy that I suggested not voting for -- that's a dissolution of burden of responsibility, at least in part, to me. It doesn't need to be stated outright. I don't think it's "desperate" or even "incoherent". I don't think those things are necessarily alignment indicative.

I really did think Wilgy would flip scum.
Okay. You aren't interested in understanding my thought processes then. You are interested in writing a case on me and framing what I say as scummy things tbh. If you are scum in this game, I will for sure nab you the next time you do it tbh!

[Boquise]

Either way, I understand why I am scum read. I have failed to play at an acceptable level and that's on me. I underestimated how much I would struggle with my other duties. The only thing that tilts me is how JJJ and Dizzy try to make it sound like I am lying about that tbh. It is what it is though. Hopefully I can get to play another game here when I can devote 100% of my brain to it tbh.

I don't think you're lying about your other duties (and I haven't said such a thing). I know you're doing jury and probably other Boquise things too. I'm just working with the material in the game thread.

If I have the time, I will looking by interest with what you will do after having flipped me town tbh

[Boquise]

and I am genuinely sorry for not giving you enough material to work with, but I do feel like there has been very little understanding of my situation. You even dismissed my explanation about champs altogether and portrayed it as a surprising answer. I literally can't do more than I am doing rn.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I really did think Wilgy would flip scum.
Okay. You aren't interested in understanding my thought processes then. You are interested in writing a case on me and framing what I say as scummy things tbh. If you are scum in this game, I will for sure nab you the next time you do it tbh!

I'm having a conversation and trying to explain where I am coming from -- because I'm not sure your responses relate directly to the points I am trying to make. I wouldn't bother with any of this if I wasn't interested in understanding you. Perhaps my tone is severe: I am frustrated by the state of the game and it bleeds through. This is the kind of thing that makes these interchanges problematic, unfortunately, but the thread is otherwise unmoving so whatever.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I really did think Wilgy would flip scum.

I think this is really the crux of the matter, and if I understood better why this was your expectation I might be able to get somewhere.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm also like, wondering if I'm actually right on JJJ because I read over the Nate ISO and actually felt I agreed with several comments.

You still placed Nate in the bottom tier of your reads list. Where's the disconnect?

[Boquise]

I really did think Wilgy would flip scum.
Okay. You aren't interested in understanding my thought processes then. You are interested in writing a case on me and framing what I say as scummy things tbh. If you are scum in this game, I will for sure nab you the next time you do it tbh!

I'm having a conversation and trying to explain where I am coming from -- because I'm not sure your responses relate directly to the points I am trying to make. I wouldn't bother with any of this if I wasn't interested in understanding you. Perhaps my tone is severe: I am frustrated by the state of the game and it bleeds through. This is the kind of thing that makes these interchanges problematic, unfortunately, but the thread is otherwise unmoving so whatever.

"This is opportunistic"
"No it isnt, because xyz."
"That doesn't matter. Only A matters. It is opportunistic."
"ok have a good day then tbh."

I thought Wilgy would flip scum because:
1. I did not think the way he reacted to Mac's pressure was townie, from someone who has been death tunnelled by Mac before many times.
2. Because the way Wilgy decided to town read Mac felt to be made out of reluctance after I began questioning Wilgy and town reading Mac.

Then I also voted Wilgy because:
3. I did not want to yeet anyone else because they were active enough.
4. Because I found it interesting to see how that would play with your charts.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I thought Wilgy would flip scum because:
1. I did not think the way he reacted to Mac's pressure was townie, from someone who has been death tunnelled by Mac before many times.
2. Because the way Wilgy decided to town read Mac felt to be made out of reluctance after I began questioning Wilgy and town reading Mac.

Then I also voted Wilgy because:
3. I did not want to yeet anyone else because they were active enough.
4. Because I found it interesting to see how that would play with your charts.

Alright.

I've spoken of these things already, and in the interest of avoiding a noisy tunnel I am just going to think further on them. However, I would very much like to hear what other players think of the above explanation. Is this a reasonable view for Boquise with respect to voting for DrWilgy on Day 2?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: EnderWiggin] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I just looked through Boquise and Ender to assess their fit. Generally they seem as compatible as [insert most other pairings here]. There aren't standout alarm bells, but nor are their dissociative indicators. This is the closest I came to the latter:

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: NateTheLesser] aubergine

Honestly don't feel like you care about the current gamestate, why's that?

I said this in more words in response to Alison, but people keep agreeing with my pushes, and it leaves me oddly directionless.

You're disquieted because you think there's a wolf in Alison/Lucy/Jay? Why those 3?

Because the sensation was "Wolves comfortable" which suggests a wolf in towncore and those 3 + Mac + Boq were that towncore. Mac is dead and I might be premature but I've loved Boq's content.

Hence those three.

Oooh why do you love it?

I am a simple man, I see Boq post, I usually kinda nod.

It's a bit on the nose for mafia teammates. I wouldn't confidently dissociate on that basis alone.

[Marmot]

Well thats your opinion and stuff, but it doesn't make me wolfy. Remember that after I said I wanted to cop check Alison, I also voted Alison. You can disagree with the philosophy, you can disagree with the line of thinking, but you cannot add "opportunism" to it since it is coherent with how I played with my own cop check.

I most certainly can call it that. First of all, translating a hypothetical cop check to "let's kill them" is not a sensible premise in the first place. Second of all, the vote that counts was on DrWilgy.

Well then, I still don't think it is opportunistic. I have not blamed you for it. It was one of the reasons why I thought it would be interesting to flip Wilgy tbh.
What I tried to point out there is that my thought progression is coherent and not random desperate plays. There is thought and reason behind my posts, that is what I am trying to say about my Alison vote. Not just that I suddenly thought "oh yeh lets vote Wilgy's because JJJ said this".

It would be "interesting" to flip Wilgy?

[NateTheLesser]

Why are the names Alison/Boq/JJJ often being tossed around together? I think I get it, in that they were unanimously townread early on, but I think Jay has had a much more significant impact on the game than either of the other two. Also Rondo and Nate have been more fairly consensus town I think than any of those three.

I have seen luc, Dizzy, and fingersplints all do this btw

So where should we be looking?

My initial thought is that yes there is a wolf in that group, but that group is being discussed together in an attempt to distract from who the actual wolf is and increase the likelihood of missing if we decide to elim in that group.

JJJ is receiving far more heat from the rest of the game than the other two, and my gut feeling is that means that JJJ is a miss.

I think it was a result of Jay's D1 question about who ppl's top 4 town was, there was a lot of consensus around Alison/Boq/JJJ/Lucy so I think the grouping has mostly stuck.

I have the same gut concern as you, mostly that getting a mischop in that group would be much more valuable than someone who has less thread pull.

[Marmot]

I think interesting is an equivocal word choice when you could say something like "telling" or "useful" or "game-breaking" or what-have-you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think the "Alison/JJJ/Boq" prototype is a bit of a relic, which relates to Nate's viewpoint, and that it doesn't quite reflect where the game was at by the end of Day 2.

[Dyslexicon]

Ok, so Boq is probably town.

[Marmot]

I think interesting is an equivocal word choice when you could say something like "telling" or "useful" or "game-breaking" or what-have-you.

[Marmot]

Internet failing, send help

[NateTheLesser]

I think only Dizzy gave me a perspective on this:

Those who know Mac better, a hypothetical: on D1 he had a kill list of Dizzy/Creature/Falcon/Wilgy + Marmot. I imagine he generally expects to die N1. If he finds himself still alive D2 in this game, does he assume he's only alive because his list was wrong and start over? Or is someone on there dying?

[Dyslexicon]

Ok, so Boq is probably town.

I have decided this is the case btw

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think only Dizzy gave me a perspective on this:

Those who know Mac better, a hypothetical: on D1 he had a kill list of Dizzy/Creature/Falcon/Wilgy + Marmot. I imagine he generally expects to die N1. If he finds himself still alive D2 in this game, does he assume he's only alive because his list was wrong and start over? Or is someone on there dying?

That's really hard to say. Mac's views of games can change severely and suddenly. Perhaps he starts there, but his solving method is chaotic and may not end there. What do you have in mind on this front?

[Marmot]

I thought Wilgy would flip scum because:
1. I did not think the way he reacted to Mac's pressure was townie, from someone who has been death tunnelled by Mac before many times.
2. Because the way Wilgy decided to town read Mac felt to be made out of reluctance after I began questioning Wilgy and town reading Mac.

Then I also voted Wilgy because:
3. I did not want to yeet anyone else because they were active enough.
4. Because I found it interesting to see how that would play with your charts.

Alright.

I've spoken of these things already, and in the interest of avoiding a noisy tunnel I am just going to think further on them. However, I would very much like to hear what other players think of the above explanation. Is this a reasonable view for Boquise with respect to voting for DrWilgy on Day 2?

I can't blame him tbh. If everyone else is acting townie, I think it's reasonable to kill the people early on who are not acting townie.

Obviously if that doesn't work we have to reapproach the game from new perspectives, which we are, but I can't call that approach wrong.