King of the Hill Mafia

[robyn]

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

[robyn]

still funny that we won that game in f9 lol

[MacDougall]

Creature pushes quite firmly on Lilypetal, Seanzie, Mac, Boquise and a little bit onto Porscha.

He particularly took umbrage with me townreading Lily and Neon. His treatment of Seanzie, Lilypetal and I are very unpartnered. But given Creature seems to be a shielder not a busser, probably just all the above names would be spewed town if Creature is mafia.

The least hedgy townreads were on Falcon, Alison and Arogame. Every other townread came with caveats that contrast a great deal with the surety he had on his Lucy shield. Including on SPF, Lucy. He also townread MissSparkles off a nothing single post and then put her in his top tier. Lol.

I'd suggest that if he is mafia then Alison/Arogame/Rondo would contain at least one wolf.

[Seanzie]

It's little wonder this game is in the state is in (toxic) when people are still content to flail about out on their own tinfoiling me (and others) instead of just doing what is optimal for the game.

While people are content to do that, they won't ever find the wim to bother reading my content and recognising the validity of it. If you are capable of reading my play in this game as wolfy or theatrical then what chance do I have of being heard?

I am capable of many things, reading your play as potentially theatrical is one.

I won't lie, I have been hard pressed to keep up with this game, so I'm not going to say I've read all your posts or that my reads are guaranteed to bw good and polished, but your posts to Alison have no teeth, and the arguments you two are getting into go nowhere. It's all very IIoA IMO, and it just doesn't feel right.

I also hate your Creature push. They are playing like town!Creature, and if they are faking it, I don't think they'll be able to for 5-6 days, so if they are wolf, they'll likely be easier to find later rather than now.

I see your point with Alison being somewhat antithetical to her own town tenants this game, but I don't think I can give you points for pointing that out, or dragging out these arguments for as long as you have.

I'll try to find you if you're town, I'm not dead set on you/Alison, but I don't think my theatre read is unreasonable, and I don't think me being wary of your Creature push is either.

The bolded are just plain wrong Seanzie. Like you can argue that's it's your opinion but to say my Alison pushes today have had no teeth can only make sense if you've straight up not read most of it honestly.

I don't think the bolded are plain wrong. Your arguments are factually fine, and solid in terms of arguments, but they FEEL like you're the kid on the debate team that ended up being put on the opposite side of an issue they're passionate about. You're making arguments, doing the debate justice, but there's no spark.

Um what's missing exactly? Do away with your vagueness and speak plainly. Telling me my argument is factual and solid but then waxying lyrical about me being kid on debate team and lacking spark just means fuck all unless you point out what you'd expect to see from town Mac that's missing. I guarantee if you manage to articulate anything it'll either be something I can point you at or utter canned nonsense.

Any reasonable wolf can put together a factually solid case against their wolfmate, in fact often better than a townie can. Townie's arguments though tend to have a feeling of "aha!" or "yes!" or sometimes "I kinda think this but I'm also a bit scared I'm wrong" or 1 of 100 other emotional states that come through in subtle ways. Your arguments have no feelings, no townie vibes. It feels like you're arguing a point just to do it, not because you really feel like you've got a fish on the hook and are salivating at the prospect of filets for dinner tonight.

[MacDougall]

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

I'm strictly comparing his early day 1 treatment of you. Which would be the most indicative of his standard.

[robyn]

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

I'm strictly comparing his early day 1 treatment of you. Which would be the most indicative of his standard.

hard disagree, i was mafia poisoner and a wagon for most of d1

[MacDougall]

It's little wonder this game is in the state is in (toxic) when people are still content to flail about out on their own tinfoiling me (and others) instead of just doing what is optimal for the game.

While people are content to do that, they won't ever find the wim to bother reading my content and recognising the validity of it. If you are capable of reading my play in this game as wolfy or theatrical then what chance do I have of being heard?

I am capable of many things, reading your play as potentially theatrical is one.

I won't lie, I have been hard pressed to keep up with this game, so I'm not going to say I've read all your posts or that my reads are guaranteed to bw good and polished, but your posts to Alison have no teeth, and the arguments you two are getting into go nowhere. It's all very IIoA IMO, and it just doesn't feel right.

I also hate your Creature push. They are playing like town!Creature, and if they are faking it, I don't think they'll be able to for 5-6 days, so if they are wolf, they'll likely be easier to find later rather than now.

I see your point with Alison being somewhat antithetical to her own town tenants this game, but I don't think I can give you points for pointing that out, or dragging out these arguments for as long as you have.

I'll try to find you if you're town, I'm not dead set on you/Alison, but I don't think my theatre read is unreasonable, and I don't think me being wary of your Creature push is either.

The bolded are just plain wrong Seanzie. Like you can argue that's it's your opinion but to say my Alison pushes today have had no teeth can only make sense if you've straight up not read most of it honestly.

I don't think the bolded are plain wrong. Your arguments are factually fine, and solid in terms of arguments, but they FEEL like you're the kid on the debate team that ended up being put on the opposite side of an issue they're passionate about. You're making arguments, doing the debate justice, but there's no spark.

Um what's missing exactly? Do away with your vagueness and speak plainly. Telling me my argument is factual and solid but then waxying lyrical about me being kid on debate team and lacking spark just means fuck all unless you point out what you'd expect to see from town Mac that's missing. I guarantee if you manage to articulate anything it'll either be something I can point you at or utter canned nonsense.

Any reasonable wolf can put together a factually solid case against their wolfmate, in fact often better than a townie can. Townie's arguments though tend to have a feeling of "aha!" or "yes!" or sometimes "I kinda think this but I'm also a bit scared I'm wrong" or 1 of 100 other emotional states that come through in subtle ways. Your arguments have no feelings, no townie vibes. It feels like you're arguing a point just to do it, not because you really feel like you've got a fish on the hook and are salivating at the prospect of filets for dinner tonight.

I was so aggressive at one point I started getting accused of tunneling and confirmation bias so you can fuck off with your lies.

[MacDougall]

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

I'm strictly comparing his early day 1 treatment of you. Which would be the most indicative of his standard.

hard disagree, i was mafia poisoner and a wagon for most of d1

How are you reading him right now? Like obviously you scumread him but are you treating him as lock mafia?

[robyn]

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

I'm strictly comparing his early day 1 treatment of you. Which would be the most indicative of his standard.

hard disagree, i was mafia poisoner and a wagon for most of d1

oh wait “early”
4am
gn

[MacDougall]

I guess Vandy, risiinq and niph look wolfier here. Vandy feels pretty underwhelming this game compared to what I'm used from Vandy. risiinq also felt a bit detached when I saw them post and feels like whenever someone tried to wagon them a counterwagon would show up/grow. niph felt meh in the few posts I saw from them.

Day 2, Creature comes out scumreading 2 of his partners in his 2 of 3. Interesting.

He had made no real mention of either of them on day 1.

[robyn]

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

I'm strictly comparing his early day 1 treatment of you. Which would be the most indicative of his standard.

hard disagree, i was mafia poisoner and a wagon for most of d1

How are you reading him right now? Like obviously you scumread him but are you treating him as lock mafia?

i’m always going between alison/creature today, i don’t think he’s 100% mafia but i haven’t iso’ed or anything
he has a great chance of flipping scum though which i don’t think anyone can disagree with

[robyn]

creature was middle of alison wagon, alison partner would make partner go onto her
but i really don’t think the solve is lily/creature/alison
which it could be

[robyn]

i just don’t see that team not killing you or spf tbh

[robyn]

i just don’t see that team not killing you or spf tbh

i didn’t think about this enough, i can see this team not killing them tbh

[robyn]

alison was TRing lily a bunch, same with creature
someone needs to do some busy work and look at those three because i can’t for the foreseeable future

[robyn]

h

[robyn]

that’s what that does

[robyn]

lpenis

[robyn]

@Seanzie what area of math do u study and are you in industry or academia

[robyn]

@staypositivefriend @Creature @Alison give me full reads lists in 12h-16h if i don’t see them i will ask again

[Boquise]

@Boquise how busy are you, normally you’d be solving like mad and come to independent conclusions

i am currently having classes and I am writing flavour. I have written a thing in this topic that I am waiting to see what happens with tbh
I will solve more when I am not working tbh
rn i am eyeing the thread when i have the time tbh

[robyn]

@Boquise how busy are you, normally you’d be solving like mad and come to independent conclusions

i am currently having classes and I am writing flavour. I have written a thing in this topic that I am waiting to see what happens with tbh
I will solve more when I am not working tbh
rn i am eyeing the thread when i have the time tbh

[robyn]

@Boquise how busy are you, normally you’d be solving like mad and come to independent conclusions

i am currently having classes and I am writing flavour. I have written a thing in this topic that I am waiting to see what happens with tbh
I will solve more when I am not working tbh
rn i am eyeing the thread when i have the time tbh

got an estimation when we can live chat?

[robyn]

not rn but after you solve for a bit

[robyn]

oh lmao i suspected creature in my notes yesterday, i will reiterate i’m only okay with creature/alison lynches today

[Boquise]

@Boquise how busy are you, normally you’d be solving like mad and come to independent conclusions

i am currently having classes and I am writing flavour. I have written a thing in this topic that I am waiting to see what happens with tbh
I will solve more when I am not working tbh
rn i am eyeing the thread when i have the time tbh

got an estimation when we can live chat?

perhaps in 6-7 hours tbh

[robyn]

@Boquise how busy are you, normally you’d be solving like mad and come to independent conclusions

i am currently having classes and I am writing flavour. I have written a thing in this topic that I am waiting to see what happens with tbh
I will solve more when I am not working tbh
rn i am eyeing the thread when i have the time tbh

got an estimation when we can live chat?

perhaps in 6-7 hours tbh

kk, i’ll be at my laptop in 8 tbh

[robyn]

@staypositivefriend if you are town i want to find you before today ends

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

No. In my experience sleeping am hour makes you more tired

I ended up sleeping and im glad I did cause I actually managed to get three and a half and that was worth it

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

It's little wonder this game is in the state is in (toxic) when people are still content to flail about out on their own tinfoiling me (and others) instead of just doing what is optimal for the game.

While people are content to do that, they won't ever find the wim to bother reading my content and recognising the validity of it. If you are capable of reading my play in this game as wolfy or theatrical then what chance do I have of being heard?

A) you have almost two "post caps" already, chill

B) its sean dont worry about it

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie what area of math do u study and are you in industry or academia

I study a subbranch of game theory known as mafia theory.

[VOTE: Lucy] aubergine

I'll give you an A in MAF 207 - Introduction to Mountainous if correctly identify why I voted for you.

[Creature]

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

spf and creature, game theory wise do we Lynch the cw?

We shouldn't restrict our lynch options today. It's not set in stone Alison is wolf and I feel like wolves are skating under the radar while we eat each other.

Maybe you just don't actually realise how bad this is but not killing the counterwagon on day 2 is the number 1 thing that leads to town losing mountainous games. Nothing else comes close.

Perhaps. I just hate giving wolves a free day pass because we have to resolve wagons when TvT wagons are quite common.

I'm still right. When two players end up being final wagons D1 and one of them gets flipped town, the other is bound to get resolved sooner or later. I just disagree they should be resolved instantly.

Like, in that game you're referencing at some poijt the wagons were you (wolf) v Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town). Eventually your wagon collapsed into a Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town) final thunderdome. Vanta Black ended up lynched that day and Chaos was poisoned the next night, while you got a pass all the way to endgame.

I'm concerned the same thing could've happened with Porscha (wolf) v Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town): the Porscha wagon collapsed into an Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town) final thunderdome where we lynched falcon45caand now we're resolving Alison while Porscha gets away.

[Creature]

Lilypetal's play here feels bizarre from a wolf perspective. Though sometimes I still get bothered that I'm noy used to Lilypetal playing like this. I wonder if it's Syndicate's behavior altering elixir in action.

Hmmm

I guess my lucy townread had to do with her actions not making sense from wolf, like claiming VT right out of the gate. I also kinda agreed when someone said her reactions felt genuinely frustrated town.

These two posts are remarkably similar lol.

Pretty sure my townread on Lilypetal is structured a lot differently than my lucy townread on the other game. Here I expressed the reason why I townread Lilypetal and also pointed something I was concerned about her. That other game I only listed reasons to townread lucy without any drawback.

[Creature]

Hell I guess I pushed Lilypetal remorselessly a lot D1 because of her entrance. I feel like I would be inclined to just ignore my partner's entrance or just be quick to drop suspicions about them.

[Creature]

Okay here are some quotes from Creature from this game Lucy has pulled irt how he treats teammates (August this year so very recent, probably Creature's most recent wolfrand).

It's not even close to my most recent wolfrand. I guess I ended up playing fairly suboptimally there because I was alting and the deadlines were so long I often got bored.

My most recent non-mash wolfrand was Something Simple which had a 48/24 deadline format just like this game. If you're suspecting Alison and I are partnered this game is an even better comparison because I was wolfing with Alice Liddell and I deem both Alison and Alice to be strong (wolf) players so you can just compare my treatment of them.

[Creature]

Also I remember Alison was very frustrated at Twice Shrunk for burning all his towncred to defend her in the Spec Chat game. If we were wolf partners I feel like I've been defending her so much she'd want to marry Twice Shrunk after this game.

[Creature]

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

There's this too. I feel like I would've prob bussed lucy that game if lucy wasn't the wolf's strongest role by far.

I ended up making shit up so I could save lucy and I knew that would probably make me look bad. I ended up just taking advantage of town unaligning lucy and me because I defended her vehemently.

Also I ended up pushing my other two partners a lot trying to spew them town when lucy and I both eventually were lynched.

[Creature]

I guess most concerning thing about Alison is that she's pushing a Porscha + me + Lily/Rondo world which doesn't make any sense given the nightkill and she should probably know it.

[Creature]

Critically bad mischops are the players that the mafia will want to kill themselves. SPF, Arogame, Boquise, myself. Several of these players should be self resolved by f7. So you just shouldn't bother chopping this group and shouldn't even really bother even humouring it (even if one or several of us are wolves tbh). I think it's pro mafia to even tinfoil these four names honestly.

It should just be a combined effort primarily led by these four names to actually coordinate the chops because of that. Even if they are mafia it will be enticing to townside and bus.

If we're allowed to lead, and somehow get to f7 without any wolves dead, I'll retire from mafia (and it should also out some fools and give us the best chance of limlo anyway).

I'm still worried that you may be wolf pushing two mislynches (Alison and myself) and shielding your partners from it (Porscha is one in mind). Waiting until F7 will mean wolves have so much momentum it will be pretty hard to overturn a 4v3 for town.

If Alison flips town I'm probably looking at you next because I feel like wolves would've probably just killed you N1 if your reads were this massively wrong. You'd prob die giving town a completely wrong direction as your legacy.

[Creature]

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

Doesn't a Neon + Lily wolfteam ever kill within you/Alison/SPF? Such a wolfteam would prob mean one of you three is the third unless there's a gambler somewhere.

[Creature]

I dunno how to feel about Seanzie hard townreading me. Is he basing it off the ressurection game?

[Creature]

if porscha is town, it means that the main wagons being pushed (me, jack, porscha) were all town.
I just woke up and will read up later, but I will keep that in mind tbh

what's the logic behind this pls?

I am town
I know Jack was town
If you are town
It means all three main pushes were town.

It would imply that wolves had it chill last day until eod. It is only if Alison is wolf that the wolf team was in any sense of danger tbh

Alright there's a concrete possibility the wolves were all chilling yesterday. Which players do you feel have been ignored too much?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

Is this Neon and Lily or Neon or Lily

Because you have to know I don't make it this blatantly obvious if we were teamed

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

No. In my experience sleeping am hour makes you more tired

I ended up sleeping and im glad I did cause I actually managed to get three and a half and that was worth it

I average like 4 to 5 xD

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

No. In my experience sleeping am hour makes you more tired

I ended up sleeping and im glad I did cause I actually managed to get three and a half and that was worth it

I average like 4 to 5 xD

Mood

[Lilypetal]

Also, I've learned this new tactic and adding it to my skills set. I want to try it out today and hopefully this will work. No gambit or shit like that, I think this is a clever trick and hopefully it yields results.

no gambits?

: (

[Lilypetal]

Lilypetal's play here feels bizarre from a wolf perspective. Though sometimes I still get bothered that I'm noy used to Lilypetal playing like this. I wonder if it's Syndicate's behavior altering elixir in action.

Hmmm

I guess my lucy townread had to do with her actions not making sense from wolf, like claiming VT right out of the gate. I also kinda agreed when someone said her reactions felt genuinely frustrated town.

These two posts are remarkably similar lol.

lol that's kinda funny actually

if this wasn't abt me i would probably begin pushing just for this alone

[Lilypetal]

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

Doesn't a Neon + Lily wolfteam ever kill within you/Alison/SPF? Such a wolfteam would prob mean one of you three is the third unless there's a gambler somewhere.

yes same as last night the teams being proposed make no sense with a jack NK

i would've killed spf because her legacy post had me as town :3

[Lilypetal]

anyway @lucy besides me not pledging my undying loyalty to u why am i a wolf

[arogame123]

Here is another way to play.

10 v 3
8 v 3
6 v 3
4 v 3 limlo

Three mischops til f7.

Critically bad mischops are the players that the mafia will want to kill themselves. SPF, Arogame, Boquise, myself. Several of these players should be self resolved by f7. So you just shouldn't bother chopping this group and shouldn't even really bother even humouring it (even if one or several of us are wolves tbh). I think it's pro mafia to even tinfoil these four names honestly.

It should just be a combined effort primarily led by these four names to actually coordinate the chops because of that. Even if they are mafia it will be enticing to townside and bus.

If we're allowed to lead, and somehow get to f7 without any wolves dead, I'll retire from mafia (and it should also out some fools and give us the best chance of limlo anyway).

So @staypositivefriend @arogame123 @Boquise shall we get to work?

Obviously my strong preference today is to resolve Alison. If Alison flips town then I'd be 100% inclined to just kill whoever she leaves in her legacy.
I already know SPF doesn't subscribe to the idea of needing to resolve the day 1 wagons. Which bothers me a great deal especially when it's Alison of all people, someone I know SPF knows Alison can fool her. And I think I've made several compelling arguments for why Alison is a wolf. I don't think she is playing the game like town Alison really at all and hasn't been for most of it.

My feeling on each other slot:

arogame123 - I have had moments of tinfoil as I am prone to, but I don't have any interest in playing into it. Arogame has been largely a steadying influence on the game and I'd rather let them continue to do that. I don't really know exactly where their head is at though.

Porscha - I saw Boq and Arogame kind of coalesce on a townread here, I have a similar read for similar reasons. I think Porscha is out of her scumrange.

Boquise - Feels like the most sane person in the game every time they post. They come across like an adult who keeps checking on the kids and finding chaos every time.

Seanzie - There were some posts on day 1 that just felt townie. Seanzie has some seriously tilting takes but there is an overwhelming lack of TMI in their play. I just don't think Seanzie as a wolf plays this way (especially knowing I am town).

Creature - I really struggle to get past how Creature was handling the end of day. Pushing Falcon for their own reasons but continuously promoting the idea that I was alone in my Falcon push. Blaming me for it. Then coming out today and immediately putting me on the backfoot for chopping a town like chopping Falcon in a split is even AI for me to begin with. I just don't think his reads make any sense either.

Lilypetal - I feel weird about Lilypetal but I don't want to chop them. I don't really know how to articulate my feelings on Lilypetal and wouldn't mind fleshing out some feelings on this slot.

Lucy - Probably my strongest townread. I think Lucy has been exceedingly sensible throughout the entire game so far and has a fire to their play that I really vibe with.

Rondo/Sparkles - Sparkles was slanky wolfy. Rondo has been actively scummy with no remorse. That this slot is not being tunneled by the wolves is tripping me out even harder. I have no idea why this slot isn't more of a topic of conversation. Especially from someone like Alison who by their own mafia beliefs should be probably doming Rondo by now.

Nanook - I... wouldn't be surprised if Nanook was mafia or town. At times my read has fluctuated from quite strong town, back to null. He's not really gone over the null line into lean wolf territory for me yet though. Probably another Nanook late game dies for rand reasons and flips town game. I guess having that thought alone makes me want to townread him.

Neon - I wanna say they are likely to be town here because they are kind of more pure than I remember their wolfgame being but they aren't exactly an incompetent wolf. We have swept a town before as wolf teammates. Probably need more flips to really get an idea of what's going on here. Potential late game miselim.

SPF - I am following my usual pattern of feeling like SPF is lock town, tinfoiling them, massively questioning their reads... I am rather inclined to break my pattern here and sheep them somewhat but... I worry about that backfiring. SPF's day 2 has been quite tilting and I've vibed with very very little of what they've said though. But as I said, that's the pattern with me and SPF.

Town

Lucy
Arogame
Boq
Porscha
Seanzie

Lean Town

SPF
Nanook
Neon
Lilypetal

POE

Alison
Creature
Rondo

I posted my reads list a bit earlier last night. I will look into creature as I see you have him in bottom, but I had a slight town read on creature. I think all in all, I agree with majority of your town reads and town leans. I did have some moments where I saw Porscha as town through the reasoning I mentioned, but I heard someone saying she has a volume tell as well. Does that apply here as well?

And I did have a question that in the world where Alison is v, where would you believe the mafia lay there? It seems like you believe creature is mafia regardless of Alison’s alignment? Is your POE still the same?

And in the world where Alison is mafia, similar question.

I do agree that the people who tried to push the Boq wagon could potentially be opportunistic there and I agreed it was a bad wagon, which is why I was side eying a bit, but I believe overall on day 1 he had townie moments.

Also, what do u think of SPF having a different perspective from the both of us?