Re: Game of Champions 2020 [Day 0]
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:30 pm
Murder, Mayhem, and Mafia
https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/
YeahSloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:25 pmThis is the part I do not understand. I remember the exchange between nutella and nanook (the hipster mustache post made me laugh). It was clearly and obviously meant as playful banter. If we are choosing between nanook "buttering up" nutella versus initiating conflict, I'm going with the former ten times out of ten.Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:16 pm For exactly the reasons stated. The Syndicate absolutely runs on feelie reads. w!Nanook uses pointless off topic interactions to butter you up, not to attract your attention in any conflict feeling way.
Neither of these things needs to be the case. I don't really read it as much more than off-topic chatter about fruit. I liked nutella's observation that nanook was engaging there out of a sense of relief to have something to talk about, and I feel that has at least a trace of merit to it. I think that can be a thing that happens to wolves who are struggling to integrate themselves into the game. I don't think that has to mean that a wolf nanook would have had to have any particular strategy or scheme when he made those posts.
?MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 pmSloonei has said this as mafia before. I also know what comes next.Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:27 pmTalk to me about me, Hyena. The only game I remember playing with you was U-Pick, and you scum-read me off the bat then as well. I played very very different, but I was town there as well. I forget what your alignment was, but I remember OMGUSing you a bit.
It would either be thisSloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:30 pmDo your best Sloonei impression please.MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 pmSloonei has said this as mafia before. I also know what comes next.Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:27 pmTalk to me about me, Hyena. The only game I remember playing with you was U-Pick, and you scum-read me off the bat then as well. I played very very different, but I was town there as well. I forget what your alignment was, but I remember OMGUSing you a bit.
Tim will play scum whatever way he thinks gives him the best chance to winThunal33 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 pmI know someone from MU who played a 3p scum faction exactly the way she would play town, like putting lots of thought in solving and townreading/scumreading exactly the same people she would as town with the exception of her teammates. However, if I randed 3p (which I still never have) I imagine I would strategically tweak my reads to improve my appearance and further my team's agenda. Do we think most scum members would solve just like they would as town except for their teammates or strategically change their reads from what they actually believe?NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:25 pm Meh he’d still be better off trying to pocket Nutes or Mac unless he’s teamed with both
That’s true for multi and single ball
And then I don't remember any sort of response from you. That made me feel like your interaction with Tutuu here wasn't really about Mac here. Otherwise, I think you would've continued talking to me about Mac, either defending him more or kinda agreeing with me or something. That means to me that you just wanted to push on Tutuu, who from my perspective seemed a little overwhelmed at the moment?Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:10 amMac is half-assing his prodding around. I feel like he's trying to make it look like that he's trying to get people to react to him (hence why I was saying he was trying to impersonate me), but isn't actually trying to since his bait is not believable. Like compare his accusations to the one I made against you -- which felt more real/believable to you?Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:06 amYesHyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:03 amI've got my own reasoning why Mac feels different this game if you want to hear it.Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:46 pmThis is twice already that you’ve responded to token SlooneiProds by telling me essentially to knock it off. That’s not always an unfair response. My questions can be overbearing, and sometimes that’s partially the point. It was the first time. But this time I feel like I am asking a pair of straightforward and reasonable questions as part of an early dialogue in the game. I do not think my questions are vague at all, and I am not trying to be difficult.
You said you think Mac looks different than he usually does. I don’t see it and am asking for elaboration. Maybe there’s a linguistic divide here. I am struggling with your assertion that Mac “isn’t trying to be taken seriously” as part of your accusation. I see the behavior you are pointing to but I don’t see A) why it’s unusual for him, B) why he would need to be trying to be taken seriously as town, or C) what precisely it means if he is not trying to be taken seriously. There are lots of motives for floating less-than-serious reads on Day 0/1 of a game, for instance.
Also, we played together somewhat in the game where I was stuck in a Discord chat for the first two days. We even agreed on reads, albeit while I was still stuck in Discord (Marmot communicated that to you though!).Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:27 pmTalk to me about me, Hyena. The only game I remember playing with you was U-Pick, and you scum-read me off the bat then as well. I played very very different, but I was town there as well. I forget what your alignment was, but I remember OMGUSing you a bit.
We make a great teamMacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:33 pmYou baited them by controlling me? That's some next level shit.
Lmao right?MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:33 pm Actually yes DrWilgy and Hyena are actually teammates that's actually a good asf read hahaha.
Nah, I'd just rather sheep your reads than invest heavily in reading the thread.MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:30 pmhe did try to pocket meNANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:22 pm Tim is probably also town cause in what world does he try to pocket me instead of nutella or Mac
That was a good gameHyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:36 pmAlso, we played together somewhat in the game where I was stuck in a Discord chat for the first two days. We even agreed on reads, albeit while I was still stuck in Discord (Marmot communicated that to you though!).Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:27 pmTalk to me about me, Hyena. The only game I remember playing with you was U-Pick, and you scum-read me off the bat then as well. I played very very different, but I was town there as well. I forget what your alignment was, but I remember OMGUSing you a bit.
I had not seen this post until now. I was not fully present in the thread at the time, and I think I said as much. I apologize for engaging but not following up. But I wasn't really here. Was it also you that called me out for not joking around in real time with everyone else? Same deal as that.Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pm Sloonei, as far as my scumread on you goes, it started off as a couple pings here and there, but then this happened:And then I don't remember any sort of response from you. That made me feel like your interaction with Tutuu here wasn't really about Mac here. Otherwise, I think you would've continued talking to me about Mac, either defending him more or kinda agreeing with me or something. That means to me that you just wanted to push on Tutuu, who from my perspective seemed a little overwhelmed at the moment?Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:10 amMac is half-assing his prodding around. I feel like he's trying to make it look like that he's trying to get people to react to him (hence why I was saying he was trying to impersonate me), but isn't actually trying to since his bait is not believable. Like compare his accusations to the one I made against you -- which felt more real/believable to you?Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:06 amYesHyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:03 amI've got my own reasoning why Mac feels different this game if you want to hear it.Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:46 pmThis is twice already that you’ve responded to token SlooneiProds by telling me essentially to knock it off. That’s not always an unfair response. My questions can be overbearing, and sometimes that’s partially the point. It was the first time. But this time I feel like I am asking a pair of straightforward and reasonable questions as part of an early dialogue in the game. I do not think my questions are vague at all, and I am not trying to be difficult.
You said you think Mac looks different than he usually does. I don’t see it and am asking for elaboration. Maybe there’s a linguistic divide here. I am struggling with your assertion that Mac “isn’t trying to be taken seriously” as part of your accusation. I see the behavior you are pointing to but I don’t see A) why it’s unusual for him, B) why he would need to be trying to be taken seriously as town, or C) what precisely it means if he is not trying to be taken seriously. There are lots of motives for floating less-than-serious reads on Day 0/1 of a game, for instance.
I'm less salty now about being stuck in Discord for two day phases to admit that it was a good game. :PNANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:38 pmThat was a good gameHyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:36 pmAlso, we played together somewhat in the game where I was stuck in a Discord chat for the first two days. We even agreed on reads, albeit while I was still stuck in Discord (Marmot communicated that to you though!).Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:27 pmTalk to me about me, Hyena. The only game I remember playing with you was U-Pick, and you scum-read me off the bat then as well. I played very very different, but I was town there as well. I forget what your alignment was, but I remember OMGUSing you a bit.
That makes the game a whole lot harder to read, and I feel like a large portion of us don't even need to hold back our town games to avoid an NK. Scum will then also hold back their games and on balance it will be the same as if nobody held back their games but there's less info being generated.tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:35 pm i think the best way to form reads is to look at not only who's being towny but also who's being so towny that they would attract a night kill + non w/w interactions
but doing these things would net u dead which is bad for town if ur town and since multiball (if it is) games break the very concept of the original mafia game (uninformed majority vs informed minority), i think the correct approach is to think that if you are "town" you are just part of one of the tribes, and u should kind of play similarly to scum in the sense that self-preservation as town could be an important part just like old school syndicate games where night killed people werent given wins, therefore its suboptimal for one to do the optimal approach of solving the game (assuming that all of my opinions are correct)
in conclusion: i have no conclusion i am just in one of my pessimistic moods and i could be biased and im just overflowing with pessimism but sometimes its accurate and correct but i cant trust myself to know always if its correct or incorrect to trust. yeah. sorry for wasting ur time if u read this post
An award winning game even, some might sayHyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:39 pmI'm less salty now about being stuck in Discord for two day phases to admit that it was a good game. :PNANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:38 pmThat was a good gameHyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:36 pmAlso, we played together somewhat in the game where I was stuck in a Discord chat for the first two days. We even agreed on reads, albeit while I was still stuck in Discord (Marmot communicated that to you though!).Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:27 pmTalk to me about me, Hyena. The only game I remember playing with you was U-Pick, and you scum-read me off the bat then as well. I played very very different, but I was town there as well. I forget what your alignment was, but I remember OMGUSing you a bit.
Idk I like his read re Hazelnut just a moment ago.Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pmWhat's town about tim? What's odd about nutella, and is that oddness indicative of either alignment?
FairThunal33 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:40 pmThat makes the game a whole lot harder to read, and I feel like a large portion of us don't even need to hold back our town games to avoid an NK. Scum will then also hold back their games and on balance it will be the same as if nobody held back their games but there's less info being generated.tutuu wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:35 pm i think the best way to form reads is to look at not only who's being towny but also who's being so towny that they would attract a night kill + non w/w interactions
but doing these things would net u dead which is bad for town if ur town and since multiball (if it is) games break the very concept of the original mafia game (uninformed majority vs informed minority), i think the correct approach is to think that if you are "town" you are just part of one of the tribes, and u should kind of play similarly to scum in the sense that self-preservation as town could be an important part just like old school syndicate games where night killed people werent given wins, therefore its suboptimal for one to do the optimal approach of solving the game (assuming that all of my opinions are correct)
in conclusion: i have no conclusion i am just in one of my pessimistic moods and i could be biased and im just overflowing with pessimism but sometimes its accurate and correct but i cant trust myself to know always if its correct or incorrect to trust. yeah. sorry for wasting ur time if u read this post
You are not reading me properly, but that we'll see that later I suppose.Timsup2nothin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pm I think it's really interesting how Nutella and Sloonei are both talking to me with high focus on what I said about Nutella's read on Nanook...which was a day zero nothing that was just flawed in presentation...and Sloonei is trying to pry into that as if what I said about his interaction with Nutella applied there.
Sloonei, in my book your "I like this post" was an attempt, consciously or unconsciously to blow smoke up Nut's ass. There was really nothing likeable about that post, and apparently I am not the only one to notice. Now, you're a nice guy, and the Syndicate really lends itself to smoke up the ass blowing, so I'm not gonna lock you in as scum for something that may have just been part of your regular persona...but it could be agenda driven w!Sloonei. We'll wait and see.
I've never actually played with Tim but I did barely skim his champs qualifier at one point, does he always try really hard to look towny and post a lot as wolf or is that just a champs thing?NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pmTim will play scum whatever way he thinks gives him the best chance to winThunal33 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 pmI know someone from MU who played a 3p scum faction exactly the way she would play town, like putting lots of thought in solving and townreading/scumreading exactly the same people she would as town with the exception of her teammates. However, if I randed 3p (which I still never have) I imagine I would strategically tweak my reads to improve my appearance and further my team's agenda. Do we think most scum members would solve just like they would as town except for their teammates or strategically change their reads from what they actually believe?NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:25 pm Meh he’d still be better off trying to pocket Nutes or Mac unless he’s teamed with both
That’s true for multi and single ball
patpattutuu wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:35 pm i think the best way to form reads is to look at not only who's being towny but also who's being so towny that they would attract a night kill + non w/w interactions
but doing these things would net u dead which is bad for town if ur town and since multiball (if it is) games break the very concept of the original mafia game (uninformed majority vs informed minority), i think the correct approach is to think that if you are "town" you are just part of one of the tribes, and u should kind of play similarly to scum in the sense that self-preservation as town could be an important part just like old school syndicate games where night killed people werent given wins, therefore its suboptimal for one to do the optimal approach of solving the game (assuming that all of my opinions are correct)
in conclusion: i have no conclusion i am just in one of my pessimistic moods and i could be biased and im just overflowing with pessimism but sometimes its accurate and correct but i cant trust myself to know always if its correct or incorrect to trust. yeah. sorry for wasting ur time if u read this post
what percentage of this thread have you read so far?
Do you have an independent reason to suspect Hyena, or do you just suspect them in relation to a bunch of other people?DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:41 pmIdk I like his read re Hazelnut just a moment ago.Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pmWhat's town about tim? What's odd about nutella, and is that oddness indicative of either alignment?
Hazelnut's immediate and hardfound sus of me but took me calling her a coward twice to get a vote. I find it out of place. Indicitive of W, BUT I am aware that I must evaluate the root of this.
Now that I think about it, situation where Hyena is bad, Hazelnut is good. Situation where Hyena is bad, Nanook is good. Situation where Hazelnut is good, Sloonei is... Better.
Hyena is the root.
i feel bad that im voting you and you're giving me compliments T_T
I think he just plays however he thinks he needs to play to win? So if he thinks he needs to look townie he’ll do that, if he thinks he needs to power through scum agenda he’ll do that. He’s fairly adaptable afaikThunal33 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:42 pmI've never actually played with Tim but I did barely skim his champs qualifier at one point, does he always try really hard to look towny and post a lot as wolf or is that just a champs thing?NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pmTim will play scum whatever way he thinks gives him the best chance to winThunal33 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 pmI know someone from MU who played a 3p scum faction exactly the way she would play town, like putting lots of thought in solving and townreading/scumreading exactly the same people she would as town with the exception of her teammates. However, if I randed 3p (which I still never have) I imagine I would strategically tweak my reads to improve my appearance and further my team's agenda. Do we think most scum members would solve just like they would as town except for their teammates or strategically change their reads from what they actually believe?NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:25 pm Meh he’d still be better off trying to pocket Nutes or Mac unless he’s teamed with both
That’s true for multi and single ball
That was my second wolf game ever and while I enjoyed the acclaim it is probably not sound reasoning to think it locked me into that particular approach. It wasn't "just a champs thing" but it also wasn't likely to become my "definitive wolf meta."Thunal33 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:42 pmI've never actually played with Tim but I did barely skim his champs qualifier at one point, does he always try really hard to look towny and post a lot as wolf or is that just a champs thing?NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pmTim will play scum whatever way he thinks gives him the best chance to winThunal33 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:29 pmI know someone from MU who played a 3p scum faction exactly the way she would play town, like putting lots of thought in solving and townreading/scumreading exactly the same people she would as town with the exception of her teammates. However, if I randed 3p (which I still never have) I imagine I would strategically tweak my reads to improve my appearance and further my team's agenda. Do we think most scum members would solve just like they would as town except for their teammates or strategically change their reads from what they actually believe?NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:25 pm Meh he’d still be better off trying to pocket Nutes or Mac unless he’s teamed with both
That’s true for multi and single ball
Yes, I was also the one who called you out about not joking around in real time with everyone else. I let that go and gave you the benefit of the doubt, but then, like, you did it again with that post, so I was like, "is something going on here?" Either way, I still think Mac did act weirdly at that point of the game. I also don't think I've ever seen him be, like, hilariously brutally honest about people's playstyles like he was to me ("hyena scumsides as town") and tutuu ("tends to sheep her friends" or something like that). It came off in a way to discredit what we were doing.Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:39 pmI had not seen this post until now. I was not fully present in the thread at the time, and I think I said as much. I apologize for engaging but not following up. But I wasn't really here. Was it also you that called me out for not joking around in real time with everyone else? Same deal as that.Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:34 pm Sloonei, as far as my scumread on you goes, it started off as a couple pings here and there, but then this happened:And then I don't remember any sort of response from you. That made me feel like your interaction with Tutuu here wasn't really about Mac here. Otherwise, I think you would've continued talking to me about Mac, either defending him more or kinda agreeing with me or something. That means to me that you just wanted to push on Tutuu, who from my perspective seemed a little overwhelmed at the moment?Hyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:10 amMac is half-assing his prodding around. I feel like he's trying to make it look like that he's trying to get people to react to him (hence why I was saying he was trying to impersonate me), but isn't actually trying to since his bait is not believable. Like compare his accusations to the one I made against you -- which felt more real/believable to you?Sloonei wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:06 amYesHyena wrote: ↑Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:03 amI've got my own reasoning why Mac feels different this game if you want to hear it.Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:46 pmThis is twice already that you’ve responded to token SlooneiProds by telling me essentially to knock it off. That’s not always an unfair response. My questions can be overbearing, and sometimes that’s partially the point. It was the first time. But this time I feel like I am asking a pair of straightforward and reasonable questions as part of an early dialogue in the game. I do not think my questions are vague at all, and I am not trying to be difficult.
You said you think Mac looks different than he usually does. I don’t see it and am asking for elaboration. Maybe there’s a linguistic divide here. I am struggling with your assertion that Mac “isn’t trying to be taken seriously” as part of your accusation. I see the behavior you are pointing to but I don’t see A) why it’s unusual for him, B) why he would need to be trying to be taken seriously as town, or C) what precisely it means if he is not trying to be taken seriously. There are lots of motives for floating less-than-serious reads on Day 0/1 of a game, for instance.
I was interested in pushing tutuu at the time, and you're right that I was more interested in her than Mac here. I eventually arrived at a comfortable town read on her. This exchange was part of that.
Do you still feel this way about Mac?
It's a tradition as old as time itself to pile votes on DrWilgy the moment he shows up on Day 1. Even when he's on a sockpuppet.