Re: Fiddler on the Roof Mafia
Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:13 pm
I have changed my mind on Sloonei. He seems civ.
MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:26 pmUpdated, I have moved Dizzy to green because Dizzy is everything. Don't lynch Dizzy.MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:21 pm New tactic.
I am going to divide the player list into 3. Group 1 are the players who have provided me with ample opportunity to formulate a read. Group 2 have given some. Group 3 might as well be absent for the amount of insight I am able to glean. I will do a rainbow list per group.
Group 1 - Give the most credence to these reads.
Speed
Sloonei
Epi
JJJ
Kylemii
Group 2 - Give some credence to these reads.
FZ
Dyslexicon
Nutella
Group 3 - Pay no mind sunshine.
LC
Lorab
Novaselinenever
Dave
Daisy
Wilgy
Marmot
I said pay no mind sunshine. They are more or less all gut reads.JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:15 pm I agree with your green reads Mac, save perhaps LC. I don't have much of a read there. What's your inspiration?
Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:39 pmI... don't agree. Civvie btsc can be an incredibly powerful tool when both players are active, and to enact your plan would mean purposefully not using a doctor, which comes with it's own problems. the matchmakers results should already be helpful so long as that player takes their results with a grain of salt and considers contextual information. it's not worth losing two powerful resources to increase the power of one.speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:24 pm If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:
Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.
However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.
We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?
Marmot/Wilgy WIFOM parade, sequel to the smash hit Nanman of ROTTK?Marmot wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:34 pmI read DrWilgy's role. :3JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:01 pm Do people actually read all the roles before games even start?![]()
If the notion of Jay having a tell on Kyle is 100% false, as is the premise of this entire post, then I'm not sure why it's necessary for Kyle to entertain the notion of Jay's meta read on him in this context. I think Long Con was correct to point this out earlier. It's true that the first part of Kyle's post covers what the natural townie instinct should cover. The second part feels unnecessary from a civilian perspective, and reading it through the lens of scum-huntin' I can see it as a betrayal of Kyle's own guilt coming out in an impassioned defense.
we're following right along from the train of thought in the previous post. Here Kyle is wholly dismissive of the notion that anyone can possibly have a meta read on his scum game. There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player, so my understanding of his style is not fully refined, but I think he's generally the type of player who'd want to figure out what a person's read of him is before he begins arguing with them about it. That never happened here.
This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.
Or maybe this is my least favorite post. Those first two sentences imply that there might actually be a parallel. If there's a parallel, it means Kyle is scum again here, does it not? I also like how he defends himself by saying he's been "comfortable" in the realm of off-topic banter to start the game. First, because I don't care for a player describing themself as "comfortable", and second because it's not like the discussion of musicals is indicative of a town kyle anyway. I get that he's just observing the differences between his game here and the other game elsewhere, but the comparison he draws does nothing to inspire a town read of him right now. He also repeats his presumption that Jay is being less than sincere, which still complicates this whole conversation from my perspective.Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:42 pm I really don't recognise the parallel. I don't even know for sure if there is one without looking. In this game I've comfortably talked about musicals with people I already know, and in that game (I think?) I spent the first several of my posts trying to get to know the players on that site. I'm like 60% sure Jay is just making things up to prod for reactions but if not then he's wrong and his basis is flawed. If there really is a parallel Jay sees then it's 100% just a coincidence and not caused by alignment-bias.
"This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:00 pm Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?
I've made this point already, but this an incredibly shortsighted view of the standard Day 1 proceedings of any mafia game, especially if Kyle has already acknowledged that Jay was just doing his regular early game prodding business. In no game that's ever been played has a player ever been lynched because somebody baselessly said "I know what your tell is" and then everybody else just followed along blindly. If Kyle is to be lynched today, it's because of the events which were to ensue from that generative point. This is just fundamental mafia gameplay. And also to emphasize that JaggedJimmyJay should be scrutinized and held accountable for his actions is like saying a high school English class should probably read Romeo & Juliet at some point. It's going to happen regardless. Making a point of it achieves nothing.Kylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:09 pm What I'm saying that if I do end up getting lynched for Jay's 'tell' then Jay has to be held accountable. He can't just say something like "oh well it didn't work this time but I'm going to keep what it was a secret in case it's a tell in the future." and shrug it off.
If his tactic here causes me to die then I want his reasoning to be thoroughly checked into.
"Sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on." Yuck. I was identifying grounds for a suspicion. Of course there's value added. That's Mafia 101. Am I supposed to just turn a blind eye to my biggest suspect in the thread because somebody else already suspects them? He would go on to say a bunch of stuff about how everything I'd said had already been covered, but I see no evidence anywhere of this being true.
Classic.JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 pmMarmot/Wilgy WIFOM parade, sequel to the smash hit Nanman of ROTTK?Marmot wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:34 pmI read DrWilgy's role. :3JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:01 pm Do people actually read all the roles before games even start?![]()
I don't have the built in iso links cus I play on mobile. :[JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:22 pmRead the reasons provided by LoRab, FZ, and nutella and share your thoughts. Their ISOs are much shorter than mine.
This fuckers just trying to take me down with him.nutella wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:24 pmClassic.JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 pmMarmot/Wilgy WIFOM parade, sequel to the smash hit Nanman of ROTTK?Marmot wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:34 pmI read DrWilgy's role. :3JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:01 pm Do people actually read all the roles before games even start?![]()
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MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:20 pmKylemii wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:39 pmI... don't agree. Civvie btsc can be an incredibly powerful tool when both players are active, and to enact your plan would mean purposefully not using a doctor, which comes with it's own problems. the matchmakers results should already be helpful so long as that player takes their results with a grain of salt and considers contextual information. it's not worth losing two powerful resources to increase the power of one.speedchuck wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:24 pm If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:
Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.
However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.
We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?![]()
I find it hard to imagine that a Mafia player would even chime in on a subject that is so sensitive, especially with such a perspective... Town points for Kyle.
Kill Marmot not me. I'll even start the wagon.MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:28 pm Wilgy and Marmot are totally cruising making jokes while a game is going on around them. Let's lynch one of them.
that's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,
I think wilgy is town. He's throwing around zany/original shit, playing the ol' fast-and-loose game, things like suggesting lynching Dizzy right after a bunch of people named dizzy as a town read. Then again, he is the king of wifom mountain, soMacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:28 pm Wilgy and Marmot are totally cruising making jokes while a game is going on around them. Let's lynch one of them.
He is mafia so infrequently it's hard to know but when we started playing (like 6 fucking years ago) he drew scum more often than not in the first 10 or so games we played and he tended to struggle a bit more as Mafia than he does as a civ. I'd say that the best way to play Sloonei is just to treat him by the book.
this implies that i should ever ignore lies being told about me and assume the liar must have good intentions. i disagree with that on principle based on the fact that this is mafia? lies and innaccurate statements should always be called out.This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.
literally no? "hey Sloonei you had a blues clues avatar in ____ mafia game where you were mafia and you have one here too so you must be mafia" is an example of what you said. Correlation doesn't imply causation.Or maybe this is my least favorite post. Those first two sentences imply that there might actually be a parallel. If there's a parallel, it means Kyle is scum again here, does it not?
I was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story."This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?![]()
I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":
MacDougall cares about the roof.MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:00 pm I'm going to lodge a veto request of the Epignosis lynch on the following grounds;
a) The primary case against him as been made by JJJ who is the most followable player in the game
b) I don't agree with his arguments
c) If JJJ is Mafia then losing Epignosis's tendency to keep him accountable by revelling in being contrarian feels tantamount to just losing the game
Yes I did. Because you were responding to a case that didn't exist as if it had to be false. whether or not you went back to investigate your own past game is irrelevant to me. what's "incredulous" about all of this is that you're not allowing the case to be made against you before you deny it. You're just denying it off the bat.Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:33 pmthat's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,
you read the post and labelled it "incredulous"
I believe Kyle is a civilian.Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:59 pm Neither Epig or Kyle are voting each other - which is peculiar kind of. I guess they will if things stay the same?
I'll either let my vote stay or switch ro LoRab cause idfk. And I need to sleep very soon.
There's a vote on LoRab. Is that a lynch you want?Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:45 pmMacDougall cares about the roof.MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:00 pm I'm going to lodge a veto request of the Epignosis lynch on the following grounds;
a) The primary case against him as been made by JJJ who is the most followable player in the game
b) I don't agree with his arguments
c) If JJJ is Mafia then losing Epignosis's tendency to keep him accountable by revelling in being contrarian feels tantamount to just losing the game
By instigating a conversation with you about your read of him. It's what he did when I put a vote on him early in Mortal Kombat. Granted, his alignment is not currently known in that game, but his behavior there is more in line with what I'd expect from town kyle.JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:45 pm Sloonei, I've scoured over your Kyle case and I continue to get an impression that you are lost in a tunnel. How about this:
If Kyle was a civilian, how do you think he would have handled my fake tell?
Is my effort irrelevant now?Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:49 pm I changed my mind, Sloonei your case is really bad. It's tunnel-y and it's not even internally consistent. It's build on hypotheticals ways that you think a town Kyle should react to situations that don't apply in reality because I don't fit into your cookie cutter viewpoint of what I should be like.
Do you think that I left the door open for a conversation?Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:49 pmBy instigating a conversation with you about your read of him. It's what he did when I put a vote on him early in Mortal Kombat. Granted, his alignment is not currently known in that game, but his behavior there is more in line with what I'd expect from town kyle.JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:45 pm Sloonei, I've scoured over your Kyle case and I continue to get an impression that you are lost in a tunnel. How about this:
If Kyle was a civilian, how do you think he would have handled my fake tell?
Marmot.MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:50 pm Everyone please reply to this.
If one of Marmot or Wilgy were to be lynched today, who would you prefer it be?
What in the hell does that have to do with now? It's 2018.JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:59 pm My FZ read leans civilian, and I am influenced by the 2015 GOC when I was faced with a crapload of errant suspicion and she was one of the few contrary voices who saw the civilian in me. There's at least some parallel here.
And she has played maybe three games in that span.Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:51 pmWhat in the hell does that have to do with now? It's 2018.JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:59 pm My FZ read leans civilian, and I am influenced by the 2015 GOC when I was faced with a crapload of errant suspicion and she was one of the few contrary voices who saw the civilian in me. There's at least some parallel here.![]()
My complaint was that you weren't engaging with Jay about his viewpoint. This is a continuation of that.Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:44 pmI was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story."This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?![]()
I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":
No. I was responding to a case that could potentially be either true or false in Jay's mind. I had no way of knowing at the time, and jay just fucked off and left me out to dry so I reacted to both. What was I supposed to do? What else was there to talk about?Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:46 pmYes I did. Because you were responding to a case that didn't exist as if it had to be false. whether or not you went back to investigate your own past game is irrelevant to me. what's "incredulous" about all of this is that you're not allowing the case to be made against you before you deny it. You're just denying it off the bat.Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:33 pmthat's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,
you read the post and labelled it "incredulous"
Not a hard question guys. Please answer.MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:50 pm Everyone please reply to this.
If one of Marmot or Wilgy were to be lynched today, who would you prefer it be?
Who is Solon?speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:54 pm Solon is town
Could lynch marmot
DizY is town
Not comfortable with the way this tie is going
Hot potato marmot or consolidate people
Linki marmite
Jay. Wasn't. Online.Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:52 pmMy complaint was that you weren't engaging with Jay about his viewpoint. This is a continuation of that.Kylemii wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:44 pmI was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story."This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?![]()
I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":