Search found 405 matches
Return to “Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]”
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:10 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
I think I need to give Neon a pass for my bad memory and let other people suss/find her
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:10 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
wait she subbed out? I dont remember that. Hmm, maybe I need to go back and read it.S~V~S wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:09 pmI didn’t read you I read her. And she subbed out, right? If you just read it, can you link me to a post where she aggressively defended a bad teammate? Cause I didn’t find one.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:01 pmYou are unfamiliar with me as town or wolf but I am a slippery bastard either way. I can tell when people have closed off their thinking and Falcon has done that, Seanzie too.Dennis wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:58 pmWhy stop conversation completely? In theory wouldn't someone be able to cement if they think someone is good or not anftrr enough pushing, especially if they're being tunneled?RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:46 pmHahaha you are so level 0 you really think I would be in anti-spew when I am the last wolf left if I was the last wolf? Whats the point? You obviously think I am wolf and you have made up your mind so there is no point engaging you since anything I say will just be more evidence I am wolf and you will continue to confbias yourself or tunnel me. Not sure if that means you are town falcon or wolf.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:22 pmSo Sean & Roxy are TownRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:26 pmYou do realise that after I flip town you are going to make it easy for the wolf to make a case on you or not even have to because you are probably going to get pushed or roxy tomorrow.
What's your take outside of Neon?
@S~V~S just read KOTH where i destroyed the mafia team while also being the scummiest person in the game pre F5.
Cutting off communication here is the best thing for thread health
What is “F5”? I’ve seen similar notations but don’t know what they mean.
And its final 5, its also FX as in lylo before F3(final 3) so its you win here or die
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:01 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
You are unfamiliar with me as town or wolf but I am a slippery bastard either way. I can tell when people have closed off their thinking and Falcon has done that, Seanzie too.Dennis wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:58 pmWhy stop conversation completely? In theory wouldn't someone be able to cement if they think someone is good or not anftrr enough pushing, especially if they're being tunneled?RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:46 pmHahaha you are so level 0 you really think I would be in anti-spew when I am the last wolf left if I was the last wolf? Whats the point? You obviously think I am wolf and you have made up your mind so there is no point engaging you since anything I say will just be more evidence I am wolf and you will continue to confbias yourself or tunnel me. Not sure if that means you are town falcon or wolf.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:22 pmSo Sean & Roxy are TownRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:26 pmYou do realise that after I flip town you are going to make it easy for the wolf to make a case on you or not even have to because you are probably going to get pushed or roxy tomorrow.
What's your take outside of Neon?
@S~V~S just read KOTH where i destroyed the mafia team while also being the scummiest person in the game pre F5.
Cutting off communication here is the best thing for thread health
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:55 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
just steal it, I made it myself since @Sabiplz was taking too long. I put it in the sign up page for koth, or just right click view image on my bannerfalcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:45 pmOh you coy devil. Hey, where'd ya get your KotH banner? I need me one of dem'RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:43 pmThats why I let you find it instead of bringing it up myselffalcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:20 pmSo they could say this afterwardsRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:19 pmThis post is exactly why I sat on Golden. What wolf would sit with a wolf on golden?falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:51 pm D4 is interesting...does Vivax and his teammate Rondo both join on essentially vanity wagon Golden?
Lucy did not vote.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:53 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Well you have read it recently so I guess you have the best info on it.S~V~S wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:29 pm @RondoDimBuckle I couldn't figure out who her team even was until I went to the bad chat. I skim read through all 279 of her posts, involving mostly people I don't know lol. Hard to follow.
I saw nothing like what Neon did in this game, and her overall game demeanor was very different, her style if you will. It looks like her partner perhaps defended her, but not anything like she did here.
I will reread her here, but tbh, I still think she's town. I still don't see a bad Neon going to that extreme.
So I'm going to slot her out of the PoE and back into townread.
Now I have to go find your Lucy confrontations. I read them at the time, but I need to reread them.
I guess if you are willing town clear her that says more about her than you since everyone has a vested interest in finding wolf if you are clearing her your wolf equity goes up.
Neon to me this game feels the same kind of liquid slippery as in that game. She could likely be town I just am unlikely to let her slip easily into a town core.
But again, youve read it, you dont see any similarities I will trust you on that and ease up off her.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:46 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Hahaha you are so level 0 you really think I would be in anti-spew when I am the last wolf left if I was the last wolf? Whats the point? You obviously think I am wolf and you have made up your mind so there is no point engaging you since anything I say will just be more evidence I am wolf and you will continue to confbias yourself or tunnel me. Not sure if that means you are town falcon or wolf.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:22 pmSo Sean & Roxy are TownRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:26 pmYou do realise that after I flip town you are going to make it easy for the wolf to make a case on you or not even have to because you are probably going to get pushed or roxy tomorrow.Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:56 pmGood game. Try again next time.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:53 pmyes. yes I was. I specifically said as muchSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:29 pmWhen you said that you'd've killed me, it clicked. Rondo was rolefishing me yesterday.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:08 pmHe seems a bit perimeter-ish as of late, but what are you seeing?
What's your take outside of Neon?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:43 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Thats why I let you find it instead of bringing it up myselffalcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:20 pmSo they could say this afterwardsRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:19 pmThis post is exactly why I sat on Golden. What wolf would sit with a wolf on golden?falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:51 pm D4 is interesting...does Vivax and his teammate Rondo both join on essentially vanity wagon Golden?
Lucy did not vote.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:58 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
I forget, its F5 lylo or the day or two before trying to defend the 3rd wolfS~V~S wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:56 pmOK, I'm in there now. She has about a billion posts. So far what I can see looks nothing like this game. Can you tell me who she aggressively defended so I can search her posts for that person? I'm two pages in from the end, and I haven't seen anything like that so far.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:49 pmIts the banner in my signature. Yes its on the siteS~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:31 pmWhat’s KOTH? Is it on this site?RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:26 pmYes she would, she has also admitted as much in this game. I have seen her do as much in KOTH.S~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:51 pmI thought Lucy was bad early, I *knew* she was bad when she got pissy that Kate was dead posting. It was almost like, “Shut up, you, I killed you!”. I think she was telling the truth that she was trying to wedge Kate/Dennis. That’s a big chunk of why I suspected her before I backed off.Golden wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:37 pm Ok, I don’t think Seanzie is bad.
Key thoughts:
Lucy towncleared dennis before she went out. I tend to lean wifom on that post, Dennis is town and Lucy wanted us to tinfoil him on the other side.
Rondo has consistently said neon is in wolfrange and that’s probably my starting point for another look today.
I think Neon is town. No baddie would have gone that balls to the walls to protect a teamie, imo. But she made it sound like aggro defense is more the norm now, so outside of my experience.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:41 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
I know soSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:40 pmI don't think so.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:36 pmits the wrong one.Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:35 pmI'm comfortable with my decision to flip you.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:26 pmYou do realise that after I flip town you are going to make it easy for the wolf to make a case on you or not even have to because you are probably going to get pushed or roxy tomorrow.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:36 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
its the wrong one.Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:35 pmI'm comfortable with my decision to flip you.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:26 pmYou do realise that after I flip town you are going to make it easy for the wolf to make a case on you or not even have to because you are probably going to get pushed or roxy tomorrow.Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:56 pmGood game. Try again next time.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:53 pmyes. yes I was. I specifically said as muchSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:29 pmWhen you said that you'd've killed me, it clicked. Rondo was rolefishing me yesterday.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:08 pmHe seems a bit perimeter-ish as of late, but what are you seeing?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:32 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
I think if I had a choice, right now. I would want Seanzie / Roxy as my counter wagon
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:31 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
@Roxy @falcon45ca why arent you voting me? You have pushed suss onto me yet you dont want to own it?
why arent you on Neon falcon or any of the other people you have been sussing? Dennis?
You even going to plant a vote today Roxy? Or you going to keep avoiding giving out the information?
why arent you on Neon falcon or any of the other people you have been sussing? Dennis?
You even going to plant a vote today Roxy? Or you going to keep avoiding giving out the information?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:27 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Man if it was legal I would vote myself and park for EOD Just to watch people go. @g-man can I have special dispensation to break the rules? (no need to actually respond)
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:26 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
No frustration at all. Just woke up so I hadnt put on my be nice to people filter yetSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:00 pmLol, Yeah, this is dripping with scum frustration.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:58 pmngl this is shitty digging. Digging usually involves asking questions like Seanzie and Falcon are doing, Naked vote is pointless. But go on
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:26 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
You do realise that after I flip town you are going to make it easy for the wolf to make a case on you or not even have to because you are probably going to get pushed or roxy tomorrow.Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:56 pmGood game. Try again next time.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:53 pmyes. yes I was. I specifically said as muchSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:29 pmWhen you said that you'd've killed me, it clicked. Rondo was rolefishing me yesterday.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:08 pmHe seems a bit perimeter-ish as of late, but what are you seeing?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:24 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:37 pmBecause when he's off on vanity wagons EOD for D4 and D5 it's almost too deliberate...performative if you willRoxy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:35 pmwhy Rondo? He hasn't voted in the pols you show here in your post.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:24 pmThe more I look at this, the more it just screams Dennis/Roxy/Rondo for the last Maffalcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:17 pm D4 VIVAX - SCOTTY, FALCON, KATE, DENNIS, SVS, GOLDEN, SEAN, ROXY
D3 SONEJI - LUCY FALCON KATE GOLDEN SVS FINGER
D2 SABI - KATE SCOTTY LUCY VIVAX GOLDEN SVS SEAN
D1 WILGY - MARMOT LUCY SEAN DENNIS SVS GOLDEN
It's def WIFOM, but it's almost like he's trying to AVOID town cred for killing wolves
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:23 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
skill issuefalcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:35 pm Rondo is def someone I find sus, and actually I'd like to hear others thought on Neon. GTH Rondo is Maf over Neon
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:22 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Yeah I did not like that phrasing as wellfalcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:32 pmI am not cherry picking vote orders, they aren't in any order. I am totally ignoring vote order, that's the opposite of cherry picking. I only care where they land by EODRoxy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:30 pm We only have one baddie left. I'd like to think G checked you since you were the opposing wagon yesterday. Though your cherry picking vote orders and posts leaves me with an icky feeling.
So that leaves the mess of Rondo and Neon. I posted about it a few posts ago. To them specifically. Waiting for a response. But your view could be helpful.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:19 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
This post is exactly why I sat on Golden. What wolf would sit with a wolf on golden?falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 4:51 pm D4 is interesting...does Vivax and his teammate Rondo both join on essentially vanity wagon Golden?
Lucy did not vote.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:18 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Spoiler: show
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:14 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 5]
I dont see how but tell me more? How is trying to solve the game leaning to me being mafia?falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:11 pmNow that we have Lucy's red flip, this is a lot more interesting if you assume Rondo is MafRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 7:47 am d52.PNG
Lets for a thought experiment also take a moment and say the people on Falcon AND Rondo are all town.
Golden / fingers / SVS / Scotty / Seanzie
who fits with Vivax/Meta
Everyone else on the wagon should be seeing a 2 in 4 of the others are wolves
===============================
Lets for a thought experiment also take a moment and say there is only one wolf on each wagon max
Dennis / Rondo
Golden / fingers / SVS / Scotty / Seanzie
Falcon / Neon
- Falcon and Neon should have a difference check on each other (I dont think I can pick between Neon / Falcon atm)
- I have a difference check on Dennis
- Golden and Seanzie should be looking at Fingers / SVS / Scotty (I think Scotty is the loser here from Fingers reaction)
So out of
Dennis / Falcon / Neon / Scotty - there should be 2 wolves
========================
which is more likely?
why would they avoid the Lucy wagon? Why would they be on the Lucy wagon?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:58 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
ngl this is shitty digging. Digging usually involves asking questions like Seanzie and Falcon are doing, Naked vote is pointless. But go on
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:57 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 5]
Seanzie flash wagon was never going to happy, dont make me laugh. It was just information gathering.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:06 pmRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:34 pm @lucy last chance to show up and convince me?
Spoiler: showRondo def looking for any opportunity to give lucy an outRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:18 pm [VOTE: Falcon ] aubergine
Seanzie, how about a Golden flash wagon?
I wanted to give her an out though, sure. If she is town she is a powerful town that can read in ways I cant and I trust her judgement when she thinks she has caught scum she has a good record. Why would I want to yeet that if she isnt town? But the quoted post is actually saying its too late for her
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:54 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Explain?falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:27 pmHmmmm...Rondo telling us what the scum plan was for sending the last Maf deep?RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:48 amBecause she didnt consult you, she felt demoralised after my entrace and ghosted thread then just coasted till she went over and admitted it in the final seconds and you posting ... because you are unahppy with that is very indicative of that but this is all angleshooty bullshit we shouldnt be engaging in because I have said I would turbo who ever you wanted as long as you provided a decent case as to why they are wolf and then turbo you the next day if you are wrong. I am giving you a winning dome but you arent taking itNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:46 am So let me ask you a question.
If I'm wolf and I've spent all day hard defending Lucy and being notably within my wolf range according to the two players who have played with me.
Why would we as a wolf team ever let Lucy come into thread and just admit to being a wolf there. I mean she's probably going over anyways ig but if she was gonna give up went would I waste my breath?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:53 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
yes. yes I was. I specifically said as muchSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:29 pmWhen you said that you'd've killed me, it clicked. Rondo was rolefishing me yesterday.falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:08 pmHe seems a bit perimeter-ish as of late, but what are you seeing?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:53 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
what does this mean?falcon45ca wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:08 pmHe seems a bit perimeter-ish as of late, but what are you seeing?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:51 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
My legit stance on her from her pov was "you are being murdered today unless you town up" she did not town up, she diedSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:44 amRondo was nowhere near Lucy's biggest critic and actually seemed to try to save Lucy a few times - why would Lucy specifically ask Rondo about their case?S~V~S wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:28 amI still have to reread Bea, but Rondo I think is incompatible with Lucy. Lucy’s discussion with him after she was outed doesn’t look like distancing to me, it looked real. But having seen some skilled distancing between you and Quin in Game 1, we know that can be faked by a skillful baddie and I would bet Rondos bad game and civ game are super similar. Chaos players usually are.S~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:25 pmI’m going to reread them tomorrow as well as splints and you. Obvs with the role claim my town read on you stands, but I want to see interactions too, so I’ll pull in Mata too.Golden wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:12 pmI have consistently thought neon was town, that’s my gut read. I’m just wondering if someone like rondo has a better read.S~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:51 pmI thought Lucy was bad early, I *knew* she was bad when she got pissy that Kate was dead posting. It was almost like, “Shut up, you, I killed you!”. I think she was telling the truth that she was trying to wedge Kate/Dennis. That’s a big chunk of why I suspected her before I backed off.Golden wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:37 pm Ok, I don’t think Seanzie is bad.
Key thoughts:
Lucy towncleared dennis before she went out. I tend to lean wifom on that post, Dennis is town and Lucy wanted us to tinfoil him on the other side.
Rondo has consistently said neon is in wolfrange and that’s probably my starting point for another look today.
I think Neon is town. No baddie would have gone that balls to the walls to protect a teamie, imo. But she made it sound like aggro defense is more the norm now, so outside of my experience.
Where are you at on Roxy and Rondo? (I’m thinking here of rondo as bea and reevaluating reads on friends.)
I did a quick skim of Roxy looking for our interactions, and found that they’ve all been pretty much OT. So imma do a full read there. Looking back it looks like my entire read of her is tone. And at this stage of the game I’d like more than tone.
Also, just saying "how did you catch me" and rondo saying "I'll tell you in post" doesn't really do much for me.
Speaking of which @RondoDimBuckle please share the contests of that google doc.
While that was my stance that does not preclude me from exploring other worlds where she flips town and see who is trying to take advantage of that.
No I dont share information. Catch me yourself.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:50 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
I am a towny player now thank you very muchS~V~S wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:28 amI still have to reread Bea, but Rondo I think is incompatible with Lucy. Lucy’s discussion with him after she was outed doesn’t look like distancing to me, it looked real. But having seen some skilled distancing between you and Quin in Game 1, we know that can be faked by a skillful baddie and I would bet Rondos bad game and civ game are super similar. Chaos players usually are.S~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:25 pmI’m going to reread them tomorrow as well as splints and you. Obvs with the role claim my town read on you stands, but I want to see interactions too, so I’ll pull in Mata too.Golden wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:12 pmI have consistently thought neon was town, that’s my gut read. I’m just wondering if someone like rondo has a better read.S~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:51 pmI thought Lucy was bad early, I *knew* she was bad when she got pissy that Kate was dead posting. It was almost like, “Shut up, you, I killed you!”. I think she was telling the truth that she was trying to wedge Kate/Dennis. That’s a big chunk of why I suspected her before I backed off.Golden wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:37 pm Ok, I don’t think Seanzie is bad.
Key thoughts:
Lucy towncleared dennis before she went out. I tend to lean wifom on that post, Dennis is town and Lucy wanted us to tinfoil him on the other side.
Rondo has consistently said neon is in wolfrange and that’s probably my starting point for another look today.
I think Neon is town. No baddie would have gone that balls to the walls to protect a teamie, imo. But she made it sound like aggro defense is more the norm now, so outside of my experience.
Where are you at on Roxy and Rondo? (I’m thinking here of rondo as bea and reevaluating reads on friends.)
I did a quick skim of Roxy looking for our interactions, and found that they’ve all been pretty much OT. So imma do a full read there. Looking back it looks like my entire read of her is tone. And at this stage of the game I’d like more than tone.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:49 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
<gestures to every time day 4 I ask you to prove Goldens You Doc him night kill is wrong and distance from him and every time you kinda softly do it like a doc would if they didnt really want to distance it>Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:58 am @RondoDimBuckle please give evidence I was shielding Golden.
You pushed that idea hard even though I did not ever actively suggest or confirm anything about Golden's theory. Thinking back on it, the only reason I can see for this is rolefishing.
Scotty ended up dead. Who do you think would have figured out that I wasn't doc?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:48 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
E1: Mate, I was clearing golden as IC because he said you docced him and you never straight up said no I am not doc. I thought he was deep wolf and wanted to yeet him. You not giving a straight response means I have to accept he is the doc save because doc (scotty) didnt CC you by hard voting you or something. If I dont have perfect information I have to go with what is in the public forum. I was pushing it so hard because I didnt 100% Believe it but there is no point pushing golden if you wont vote him and show you arent doc. You thought he was cop, you didnt want me on him so naturally from your pov you wouldnt. You would think the fact that I am acting without TMI trying to kill the cop over lucy would clear me but instead it means I am wolf????? In what world????Seanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:52 am Exhibit 1: Rondo more than anyone else (aside from Scotty) tried to push me about me/Golden. He numerous times said things like I was shielding Golden (never happened) and pushed about if I had a doc clear on Golden. Rondo more than anyone else I think would figure out Scotty was doc.
Exhibit 2: Rondo had major TMI on Lucy and yet bent over backwards to find an alternative wagon and set up possible future miselims. You can say Rondo was just new in the game figuring out where to go, but it really doesn't look like it reading Rondo's D5 in hindsight. Rondo strongly pushed Lucy without any reconsideration, while also asking others to explore town!Lucy worlds, tie people to wolf!Lucy, and try to push LHF like Neon and Falcon over Lucy without ever flip-flopping on Lucy themselves.
Exhibit 3: Rondo is clearly pissed when we don't just clear him from "Lucy TMI" that was obviously not clear-worthy. This is very clearly just a bad wolf-play that they hoped would win the game.
Exhibit 4: Bea/Lucy/Mata makes a lot of sense with how the first few days of the game felt.
E2: I was going to land on lucy at the end of day either way. I 'bent over backwards' looking or other wagons because there is another wolf out there and now day 5 has more information about who the other wolf could be instead of just ??? Lucy zzzzzzzzzzzz. Of course I pushed her without any reconsideration. Nothing changed, she did nothing. Why would I want to change my read on a slot if they do nothing? I thought she was scum. I was right. Vote me for having a good read on a slot I know pretty well.
E3: Not pissed, insistent. She is trying to make me go over. That should be clearing. If you want to tinfoil me and lose a WIM player fine.
E4: Negative, this is just wrong. Sean is either confbiasing himself again like he does with Mac or he is wolf and trying to get me over. Never voting here unless Golden votes first
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:40 pm
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:13 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Sure I am happy to go to win the gameSeanzie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 8:50 amI don't really think you were the main reason she went over. It was the likeliest conclusion for most of the day and you spent time exploring other options for most of the day (nothing wrong with that, you just slotted in, but saying you were the main reason when 3-5 people came in D5 with Lucy as their top scumread does not reflect the truth). Lucy "TMI"ing you like that was weird. Why would she do that as wolf, and why did she single you out when others caught her earlier, with actual cases on her?RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:05 amSure and I would even go for a play like that as well, but would I do that as well as be the main reason she goes over? People will be asking me why I am not dead in 2 days. In fact now that you have pointed this out I expect to make it to lylo now unless I die todayGolden wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:56 pmMy perception is lucy would totally use a wolfclaim to townclear a teammate, or to wifom others into thinking she’s townclearing a teammate, so I call this NAI atmRondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:43 pmIgnoring lucy TMI'ing me town by asking how I found her you can just look at my entrance to the game and then almost instant turboing on Lucy to force her to do things to clear meS~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:25 pmI’m going to reread them tomorrow as well as splints and you. Obvs with the role claim my town read on you stands, but I want to see interactions too, so I’ll pull in Mata too.Golden wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:12 pmI have consistently thought neon was town, that’s my gut read. I’m just wondering if someone like rondo has a better read.S~V~S wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:51 pm
I thought Lucy was bad early, I *knew* she was bad when she got pissy that Kate was dead posting. It was almost like, “Shut up, you, I killed you!”. I think she was telling the truth that she was trying to wedge Kate/Dennis. That’s a big chunk of why I suspected her before I backed off.
I think Neon is town. No baddie would have gone that balls to the walls to protect a teamie, imo. But she made it sound like aggro defense is more the norm now, so outside of my experience.
Where are you at on Roxy and Rondo? (I’m thinking here of rondo as bea and reevaluating reads on friends.)
I agree, it should be treated as NAI/anti-spew and not read into. WIthout that in your favor, you are in the PoE. Not first in line, but in the PoE.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:36 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
I like this post, yes I am still suspecting falcon but it isnt helpful to just pile on one of the auto yeets for today.fingersplints wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:57 am Players left minus me: Dennis, falcon, golden, neon, rondo, rox, Sean, svs
Ok so I still feel strongly Roxy and Golden are town. I hear what some said about defending a teammate being with Neon’s wolf range, but to defend a teammate who seemingly gave up days ago? I hate bussing teammates and even I would have dropped defending lucy. I also think SVS is town for earlier thoughts/interactions with both confirmed mafia.
So that leaves Dennis, falcon, rondo, and Sean
I feel like falcon got a lot of attention the last day period and now that’s gone. Are people still suspicious there or is this like “wink wink I just decided I feel better about him wink wink wink wink” lol
Sean and rondo undecided because is it playstyle or mafia reasons for behaviour. I think both have done town things
Dennis - I think if I reread anyone this is where I most need to. I feel like a lot of the points for him is “well Kate said he is town and she knows her son” but kids can fool parents and he might just be playing the game well. As it’s his first game it doesn’t have the weight of her knowing how to read him well in a game just knowing him in real life. As someone who has played with family, they can quite easily fool you. I think I’d like to hear what @Roxy has to say about this as she is someone who has played a bunch with her child. Has his votes and actions been town minded or are we all just trusting Kate
I’ve spoken most about Dennis here, but that doesn’t mean he is my top suspect. I’m still unsure. Just working through these thoughts
You can be town for now but this is only redeemable for one (1) day (and I might take it back
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:09 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Has there seriously not been a post in 4 hours?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:22 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
This is a good pointNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:15 amI mean. Why would you kill Scotty over SVS after SVS had an unwavering push on scum that killed them.Golden wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:10 amThey’ve only had three kills, and doc avoidance makes picking harder. Perhaps svs was even the kill attempt night 2Neon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:06 amI picked this because it's the only EoD that was ever in doubt. And there's a wagon that's almost entirely flipped.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:00 amSeanzie is my yeet in lylo, Dennis is probably IC since Katez says so but Golden is IC so SVS is the only one left. But I feel like this is a cherry picked example, do you have another?Neon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:56 am D1:
Wilgz (6): marmot, golden, seanzie, Dennis, svs, Lucy
Seanzie (5): Kate, Wilgz, Neon, Sabi, Scotty
I want to note. I'm town. So Seanzie is pure.
Do me a favor please and do a thought exercise with me. In a world where I'm town what does this tell you?
How confident are we on Sean being town?
SVS > Seanzie > Dennis
Next question. Why is SVS alive?
I'd kill SVS last night thinking they were possibly cop no?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:09 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Thats fair if trueNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:06 amI picked this because it's the only EoD that was ever in doubt. And there's a wagon that's almost entirely flipped.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:00 amSeanzie is my yeet in lylo, Dennis is probably IC since Katez says so but Golden is IC so SVS is the only one left. But I feel like this is a cherry picked example, do you have another?Neon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:56 am D1:
Wilgz (6): marmot, golden, seanzie, Dennis, svs, Lucy
Seanzie (5): Kate, Wilgz, Neon, Sabi, Scotty
I want to note. I'm town. So Seanzie is pure.
Do me a favor please and do a thought exercise with me. In a world where I'm town what does this tell you?
How confident are we on Sean being town?
SVS > Seanzie > Dennis
Next question. Why is SVS alive?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:06 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Someone has to go late if the wolves want a chance at winning you two were my favourite options. But also I wanted to see how people reacted because you werent the only options. Plus throwing a good difference check out there without stating it makes people go nuts sometimes
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:03 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Just say your angle is baiting, it works for meGolden wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:59 amMeh, Kate had a whole exchange with me earlier in the game where she knew I was lying/withholding and couldn’t see my angle.
My angle is that I was cop.
Of course I should have a good lie ready about my angle. But it was also partial truth… just not whole truth.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:01 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Read it againGolden wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:56 amWhy should we dome?RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:48 amBecause she didnt consult you, she felt demoralised after my entrace and ghosted thread then just coasted till she went over and admitted it in the final seconds and you posting ... because you are unahppy with that is very indicative of that but this is all angleshooty bullshit we shouldnt be engaging in because I have said I would turbo who ever you wanted as long as you provided a decent case as to why they are wolf and then turbo you the next day if you are wrong. I am giving you a winning dome but you arent taking itNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:46 am So let me ask you a question.
If I'm wolf and I've spent all day hard defending Lucy and being notably within my wolf range according to the two players who have played with me.
Why would we as a wolf team ever let Lucy come into thread and just admit to being a wolf there. I mean she's probably going over anyways ig but if she was gonna give up went would I waste my breath?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 1:00 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Seanzie is my yeet in lylo, Dennis is probably IC since Katez says so but Golden is IC so SVS is the only one left. But I feel like this is a cherry picked example, do you have another?Neon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:56 am D1:
Wilgz (6): marmot, golden, seanzie, Dennis, svs, Lucy
Seanzie (5): Kate, Wilgz, Neon, Sabi, Scotty
I want to note. I'm town. So Seanzie is pure.
Do me a favor please and do a thought exercise with me. In a world where I'm town what does this tell you?
How confident are we on Sean being town?
SVS > Seanzie > Dennis
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:48 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
Because she didnt consult you, she felt demoralised after my entrace and ghosted thread then just coasted till she went over and admitted it in the final seconds and you posting ... because you are unahppy with that is very indicative of that but this is all angleshooty bullshit we shouldnt be engaging in because I have said I would turbo who ever you wanted as long as you provided a decent case as to why they are wolf and then turbo you the next day if you are wrong. I am giving you a winning dome but you arent taking itNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:46 am So let me ask you a question.
If I'm wolf and I've spent all day hard defending Lucy and being notably within my wolf range according to the two players who have played with me.
Why would we as a wolf team ever let Lucy come into thread and just admit to being a wolf there. I mean she's probably going over anyways ig but if she was gonna give up went would I waste my breath?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:46 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:43 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:43 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:39 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
If you put together a proper case on SVS I will slam her and I might even try to rally the others. But you know the consequences of her being town, so you really have to find a wolf or go over. If you dont want to do that, thats ok. I will look at her anyway tomorrow if you arent wolfNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:27 amI'm saying the only option was to hard bus Lucy. The unwavering push on Lucy with no reassessment, the shade at me as the day went on because I was defending Lucy.RondoDimBuckle wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:21 amYou know what, that is a pretty high % for you if you are town after yesterday. I pretty much broadcast that I was going to kill you today if lucy was wolf and if I am a wolf I would know that so you would know that my plan is to kill you the minute lucy flips wolf so having me at +50% is pretty highNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:17 am Because I'm the most optimal misexe after yesterday. And I've clearly been trying to get Scotty killed for days. I've sat on Scotty for hours at a time each of the past two phases.
Scotty noted my stealth votes on him. And now he's not only flipped town but town doctor I hard defended Lucy it's not that hard to connect the dots and surmise I'm wolf.
But if I take at face value that Sean and Falcon are town like I think. Roxy Golden and Dennis are town.
And I'm >50% reading Rondo town. Well I'm gonna die today. Or Falcon is.
If I was a woof I'd hard defend Lucy by nature but optimally speaking the way to play it was probably exactly how SVS did. And how I played with Wilgz when we were caught out which allowed me to get deep enough to go f3
So. I'm gonna die but I'm gonna need you to actually look at SVS tomorrow.
That could be because you know if you push me I am only going to confbias you harder and just calling me neutral / town is more likely to get me to move. Explain in detail how SVS defended Lucy? Or do you mean how she made sure Lucy went over?
Can you case her for me?
I thought about this a lot last night. I think I'm dying and frankly I don't think I can stop it but I think it's important to try to get town to see what I see and not blindly follow up me with Falcon or Roxy.
SVS has been hard town read and I don't think there are great reasons for it and being able to claim Lucy's pelt was the last chance woofs had to win here.
I'm confident on most of the town core that remains. There's really only a couple people.
And I'm town reading you Rondo based mostly off how I felt about your slot pre sub. But i felt strongly about that.
I've been wrong though. About everything. In all my town games. For like a month straight. So. I'm pretty fucking demoralized.
highlighted is a copout, read me for me not for my previous slot. Its easy to hide behind that and not give me a proper town read
red for ATE
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:21 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
You know what, that is a pretty high % for you if you are town after yesterday. I pretty much broadcast that I was going to kill you today if lucy was wolf and if I am a wolf I would know that so you would know that my plan is to kill you the minute lucy flips wolf so having me at +50% is pretty highNeon wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:17 am Because I'm the most optimal misexe after yesterday. And I've clearly been trying to get Scotty killed for days. I've sat on Scotty for hours at a time each of the past two phases.
Scotty noted my stealth votes on him. And now he's not only flipped town but town doctor I hard defended Lucy it's not that hard to connect the dots and surmise I'm wolf.
But if I take at face value that Sean and Falcon are town like I think. Roxy Golden and Dennis are town.
And I'm >50% reading Rondo town. Well I'm gonna die today. Or Falcon is.
If I was a woof I'd hard defend Lucy by nature but optimally speaking the way to play it was probably exactly how SVS did. And how I played with Wilgz when we were caught out which allowed me to get deep enough to go f3
So. I'm gonna die but I'm gonna need you to actually look at SVS tomorrow.
That could be because you know if you push me I am only going to confbias you harder and just calling me neutral / town is more likely to get me to move. Explain in detail how SVS defended Lucy? Or do you mean how she made sure Lucy went over?
Can you case her for me?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:16 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
How?
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:11 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
See anyone else saying that would have been fine because then there is a good odd town is saying it but because I already suspect you and you are saying it it just feels like you are trying to muddy the water on you being wolf. I will try to keep an open mind though.
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:07 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
- Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:06 am
- Forum: Previous Heists
- Topic: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [TOWN WINS!]
- Replies: 4739
- Views: 96165
Re: Lawyers, Guns and Money- [DAY 6]
I think I would have killed you Golden for Maximum chaosGolden wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:05 am Scotty as a kill choice is intriguing. I don’t think everyone would have made it.
I figure that keeping me alive was probably a hope that I’d tunnel on Falcon, which is a good look for Falcon. I think of Falcon is bad the plan would be to kill me and argue the kill was wifom.