Cartomancy [Game Over]

[robyn]

Bereft
Rondo
Creature
Seanzie
Dennis

Sig
Kate
Porscha
Falcon

Tutuu
DrWigly
Kate

Jack
Roxy

People who can fool me who i don't have as lock town, nor do i particularly townread, but we shouldn't kill:
spf
mac

[staypositivefriend]

i perceive the following to be true about jack:

1.he consistently projected an extremely confident and assertive worldview where alison was his primary scumread

2. his reasoning for scumreading alison was primarily based on stuff that is more personality-indicative for her than alignment-indicative for her, which concerns me because my understanding is that jack knows alison very well

3. even if i accept that jack’s reasoning for scumreading alison was valid, his confidence about his read being correct was not proportional to his solving. the reasoning that he outlined, even if taken at face value, does not seem like it logically concludes to a worldview of: “alison is outed mafia and she must die by any means necessary”

4. jack’s worldview outside of alison was fairly narrow and he did not really speak at length about many other players at all

5. baud, who i perceive to be a good scumhunter, was extremely confident about jack being mafia

6. in spite of being in the position of being widely POE’d, jack has not seriously been in contention for the elimination today (at least that’s my perception - there was a wagon on him at the start of the day but then it dissipated rather quickly)

now, on the other hand, it’s true that:

1. there is not really an obvious or coherent scum strategy behind jack playing the way that he did as mafia. he would be guaranteed to look very bad whenever alison flipped, or guaranteed to draw alison’s ire to an extent that alison would get him eliminated

2. his posts today are townier than the rest of his ISO, at least on a tonal level

so, looking through these reasons……i kind of think that jack just might be mafia? i honestly need someone to talk me down from why. why should i not be scumreading jack right now? what am i missing?

^^here is the part just about jack with better formatting if anyone has any thoughts they can give me, since this is the main things i want opinions on rn anyway

[tutuu]

So here’s the thing I’m not building a case right now. But, we’re in 1 of 2 scenarios

1: Town is playing an extremely stupid game with almost no logic behind it.

2: Mafia are essentially leading the game with maybe a low key player or two onboard.

I’m thinking 2 I think mafia used the night card to get Allison yanked very early into the day so they could then “follow her legacy reads” for the next few phases. This’ll cause both me and Roxy to be voted off eliminated two more civs during the day + 2 night kills and they’ll get away with it due to bad town game play and general mehness.

So I’m leaning toward Mac being civ his frustration right now doesn’t seem to be coming from a place of mafia, I’d also say Roxy is a civ since mafia roxy wouldn’t storm off like that.

I’m very much thinking TuuTuu is mafia. She’s active she’s around and she’s even pushing votes but doing very little in the splash making department. She’s also heavily pushing the plan ti follow Alison legacy.

Also on that note one of Allison legacy reads of mafia was Neon who alreayd flipped civ so why are we even thinking about letting her decide the wagons from the grave! This is extra true when you consider a card was played to remove her and we’ve got no clue what alignment played it

[Porscha]

I think there is something very important going on between Mac and SPF.

tl;dr: SPF townreads Mac starting on Page 4, never gives a reason, not a single time, and it never wavers in the least. There are many w/w interactions between them. Mac looks like Mac wants to distance, but SPF is not doing a good job of showing critical thought on Mac. There is a small chance this is SPF/Mac w/t, but I think w/w powerwolfing is more likely here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So SPF has given me the heebee jeebees a few times, and Mac I think is playing like scum!Mac. SPF's most recent post where SPF said I was town for my case on Mac, and Mac questioned SPF's read on Mac, and SPF just said "I townread you" got my curious. I ISO'd SPF and ctrl+f'd the word "Mac". Here are the relevant posts I found, with my interpretations:

Spoiler: show

im not bored anymore though. i think bereft is town. i think porscha is town. i think mac is town. i think sig might be town. still figuring it out from there

This is 4 pages in, SPF townreads Mac without having mentioned them before. No reason given. Nothing particularly sus about this at this time, but we'll see.

Also kinda curious about the Bereft read. They didn't even register on my radar that early, will have to ISO their early game to see if I can actually make sense of a new player being townread that quickly.

here's where i'm at rn. it's a bit more hedgy than i'd like but meh

if kate is mafia then alison is probably town because i dont think that the way kate reacted to alison’s push on her felt like W/W interaction. the same applies for roxy as well but i currently perceive kate as having a slightly higher chance of being mafia than roxy. as for alison herself, i dunno. i understand that some of her arguments are easy to perceive in bad faith (like the way she poked at roxy earlier in a way where it did kind of feel like she was trying to ~dunk~ on her more than anything), but i’ve also played enough with alison to know that this style of engagement isn’t alignment indicative

so in the absence of reasons to scumread alison, and because i think alison is unaligned with 2 other ppl who are kinda in my POE, i’m at the very least not willing to vote for alison today

i like that baub felt like he had kind of positioned himself to be able to push on seanzie but then ended up backing off of him anyway. i also think his push on jack has felt like it came fro ma place of conviction. i don’t know how to read baub at all but i think he’s fine s ofar

i thought the way that bereft pushed on me while revealing that he was secretly repping a townread on me while doing so was towny. i thought the way it felt like he was projecting his view of the game (ie: “i dont find the game boring but spf finds the game boring so t herefore spf be mafia) was towny too. i townlean him

i think that creature replied decently to my concerns about him, but i do still find it difficult to shake the feeling that he is being rather careless with the way he is posting reads and acting overly confident and haughty in a way that is uncharacteristic from pretty much every game ive seen for him

i think it bothers me for a few reasons:

-his focus is all off. creature has obsessed over reading mac and me correctly in every game iver played with him but here he is pushing more on the LHF and not really engaging with either of us much at all

-he just made a post that said: “This wagon is so bad we could prob nuke everyone in it” , and this is the exact type of attitude i struggle to believe that creature would have as town

honestly i m having trouble letting go of this read on creature because he keeps making posts that ping me even though i acknowledge i could be relying on meta too strongly or confirmation biasingm yself, but yeah

tbh i kind of like the fact that dennis went out of his way to limit himself for potential options to push (by saying he isnt willing to vote any of kate/neon/lucy/falcon very early into the game) but i’m kind of ambivalent about his posts beyond that

the readslist that wilgy posted on viewtopic.php?p=1002310#p1002310 didn’t really feel proportional to the solving he had done up to that point. i don’t really get anything alignment indicative out of the rest of the stuff he’s posted

i have no idea how to read falcon and im not going to pretend that i can

i think the way that fingersplints followed up my question about the alison/roxy dynamic was towny. i need to see her post more before i make up my mind on her alignment tho

i thought the way that jack dug in his heels and stubbornly continued to hard tunnel alison even after i questioned him/tried to talk him down felt like it came more from the perspective of a villager who felt convicted over their scumread and less from a wolf, since i think wolves are more likely to capitulate to pressure when they are being questioned on their reads like that, or at least say more hedgy stuff like “alison could be town but…”

tbh though i might be giving jack too much of a pass because at the end of the day i do think that his reasoning for scumread alison is kind of bad and im unconsciously operating under the assumption that he has a polarized wolfgame, which is kind of making me treat him with gids gloves. idk. i dont want this read to be as null at it is but there u go

i think that p#120 from kate was a wolfy post and came off a little bit self-conscious. i thought she responded to pressure somewhat awkwardly too. i don’t have any other thoughts

lucy is town

i think mac is probably town for reasons that ill explain if u really want me to

im mildly bothered by the way that neon has treated me in this game. she has consistently shaded me and implied that it was wolfy for me to think that the game was boring during the first few pages and has regularly downplayed townreads on me, but she has offered no commentary on my posts beyond that whatsoever and she seems barely interested in engaging with me/communicating with me at all

it reminds me of the sabi invitational game where she consistently treated me in bad faith when she was mafia and i let it slide because i thought she was tonally towny/she had conviction. she’s essentially treating me the same way here and i’ve had trouble getting past it. i don’t really care about her posts beyond that and ive barely paid attention to them

i think porsche is most likely town because i perceive her as being mildly polarized and the depth of analysis/thought that she has projected so far is proly town indicative for her, and because i think #760 in particular would be a difficult post for a wolf to write about themselves, particularly if they traditionally struggle with wolfing in general

holding off on my rondo read for reasons

i think it was mildly wolfy that roxy shifted her positioning toward kate a bit awkwardly when she was engaging with alison but i would be lying if i said if i thought that any of her posts were alignment indicative. i i get the sense that she’s the type of player that will project towniness better if she’s town if she is left alone and able to do her own thing, so im not really interested in adding to the pressure on her at the moment and i’d like to see how she plays when she isn’t being bombarded by the rest of the game

i thought it was towny that seanzie used his experience with my wolfgame as a foundation for his reado n me in this game. i’m kind of ambivalent about the rest of his posts but i proly wuldnt touch him today

sig had a towny opening but his vote on alison a little while ago was bad and felt opportunistic. i actually scumlean him now

one of my biggest concerns about tutu was actually that she was townreading me too easily and uncritically so the fact that she suddenly got super paranoid about me being mafia and revoked her townread felt towny. idk how to read he but i would also not touch her today for various reasons

Big post, read on Mac highlighted. Again, says Mac is town but does not give reasons. Why not elaborate here? It is a big enough post that I don't think SPF felt like they would be asked to elaborate.

My strongest SR right now I think is Alison/Mac I just think they've been treating people poorly for bad reasons and are digging in their heels in a way that feels less like trying to solve the game and more like trying to make people look bad for things that aren't really that bad.

can you give me some examples of where you think mac specifically has done this?

That most recent post calling out half the player base for how they are playing when I think at least some of them are in their normal meta for one

SPF questions Neon about Mac, after Neon's response, SPF did not ever respond again.

ftr im insecure about my vote on jack and im not sure that im going to hold there

i just prefer him over the baud/alison wagons atm

What wagon(s) would you prefer instead?

i perceive the pool of creature/splints/falcon/sig as being likely to contain at least 2 wolves

I would guess you are probably correct.

I would say of the people casing/pushing me, Rondo is almost certainly town; Seanzie feels genuine; Falcon seems extremely sus. Bereft feels pure and his casing of Falcon was solid work.

Splints/sig/wilgy are flying utr.

Roxy seems rand to me; I think the pushback on Alison is likely at least partially wolf-driven though that doesn't mean much for Roxy's alignment imo.

Pretty tough to yeet mafia in this game state with 5 living so if you want to move to another wagon please @me, i'm out of posts. Who else do you trust?

i townread mac, lucy, bereft, tutuu, you, and sig roughly in that order. i'm not willing to vote for alison today even though i'm not sure about her alignment

i had fingersplints as a light townlean but she just hopped on alison in a way that extremely rubs me the wrong way

rest of the game feels kind of inscrutable to me rn

Another Mac townread without explanation

mac
lucy
tutuu
dennis
bereft
rondo
baud

my current townreads in the exact order that i townread them. i think there is one mafia maximum in this pool

im capped now so gl gl

Another Mac townread without explanation.

i really hope that a wolf did that.

I am not sure this is a real thought.

no, it was a bad decision but i dont care to debate it

possibly w/w theatre. Where did this go?

You guys should policy Mac if he doesn't produce pelts soon by the way since he's wrong on both fingersplints and me which is pretty out of form for him.

Shit I need to bus someone. Um, ah. Fuck um.

[VOTE: staypositivefriend] aubergine

slay queen

possibly w/w theatre. Weak w/w read though. Definitely w/w compatible, maybe not w/w indicative.

if creature roxy sig and jack contains more than one villager then this game is probably a loss

this is nonsense

why

it's blatantly untrue that town can't win unless all 3 are mafia and there's no reason to feel that way much less say it

your perception of the gamestate is very different from mine if you think that but okay

mine are mac, lucy, and bereft. if lucy doesn't count, then i would add tutuu.

SPF loves talking about their Mac townread. Also Bereft really fits the idea of SPF trying to hard powerwolf. As others have mentioned, Bereft clearly is not a newbie, and with almost nothing else known about them, I have a hard time thinking people are going to towncore them this hard. I need to give them a careful lookover before I really commit to this idea, so this is more spitballing than confident thought, but right now, SPF powerwolfing with Mac and Bereft is on my mind. For those who said Bereft wouldn't need to do what they've done as a wolf and could just slank since they're new, I mean... aren't they kinda doing that, just not completely and outrightly playing bad? I know the few times I've wolfed on my first time on a new sight, I've come off as a quiet but insightful townie.

cant sleep and wanted to share the stray thought that out of all the people who have pushed/shaded mac, seanzie is the towniest of them. his read on mac has a level of specificity (ie: him comparing mac to his wolfgame in GoC, him accusing mac of trying to destroy his WIM, him accusing mac of sharing responsibility for the alison wagon) that make me think he is putting real thought into mac's alignment, and the way he has kind of dug in his heels on his mac read upon being pressured makes me think that the conviction behind his real is real

i think a world where seanzie is a wolf pushing on mac only really makes sense to me if the rest of his team is cornered and he doesn't have many other viable options, but even in that world, i would expect seanzie to be a little bit more strategic about the way that he's pushing mac instead of just loudly insisting he's mafia in the most brazen way possible

i have no idea what seanzie's wolf meta is like so im open to other thoughts but yeah

and why is he not just correct?

btw porscha is lock town now

because i do not think you are mafia even if there exists a theoretical world in which you are playing significantly townier than every wolfgame i have seen from ou

Again no explanation of the town!Mac read here. This one I REALLY don't like, because the question isn't "Do you townread me?", it's "why isn't Sean correct", and SPF responded by NOT saying WHY they townread Mac, just that they townread Mac. "why isn't Sean correct" in this context is asking "WHY do you townread Mac". Bad. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad BAD.

I'd really like some input on this. The game does not feel like it is a bunch of polarized people and slankers wolfing. I think with 5 wolves in a 20 person setup, powerwolfing makes sense. Please someone talk to me.

---------------------------------------
After going through and commenting on all the posts in the above spoiler, a new line of thinking came to me, included below. Spoilered because I am not super confident about it and it is not fully fleshed out and I don't want it to detract from what I have above about Mac/SPF (even though some if it leaked into the thoughts about the posts I've quoted)

Spoiler: show

Bereft fits perfectly into a Mac/SPF powerwolfing team, at least based on these posts and what I can remember off the top of my head from Bereft's play. I'mma go ISO them

I like what you've put forward, and I think in any case it looks worse for spf than mac, but if it was actually w/w then I'm at a bit of a loss b/c that would kinda throw a large wrench into my world view. but also if i'm sheeping mac on the spf read.................................................
okay but wait, if spf is giving mac the tr with no reasoning treatment, and then mac was tr'ing her (when a lot of times he doesnt early in games tbh), why would mac then bother pushing her on her read of him? I guess it might fit into the idea that he's trying to distance with her? ......... i'm uncomfortable trying to figure this out but since I think spf looks worse for it (more than mac, at least,) then I'm sliding her down in positioning regardless of what mac thinks because I am now getting cold feet

[tutuu]

i perceive the following to be true about jack:

1.he consistently projected an extremely confident and assertive worldview where alison was his primary scumread

2. his reasoning for scumreading alison was primarily based on stuff that is more personality-indicative for her than alignment-indicative for her, which concerns me because my understanding is that jack knows alison very well

3. even if i accept that jack’s reasoning for scumreading alison was valid, his confidence about his read being correct was not proportional to his solving. the reasoning that he outlined, even if taken at face value, does not seem like it logically concludes to a worldview of: “alison is outed mafia and she must die by any means necessary”

4. jack’s worldview outside of alison was fairly narrow and he did not really speak at length about many other players at all

5. baud, who i perceive to be a good scumhunter, was extremely confident about jack being mafia

6. in spite of being in the position of being widely POE’d, jack has not seriously been in contention for the elimination today (at least that’s my perception - there was a wagon on him at the start of the day but then it dissipated rather quickly)

now, on the other hand, it’s true that:

1. there is not really an obvious or coherent scum strategy behind jack playing the way that he did as mafia. he would be guaranteed to look very bad whenever alison flipped, or guaranteed to draw alison’s ire to an extent that alison would get him eliminated

2. his posts today are townier than the rest of his ISO, at least on a tonal level

so, looking through these reasons……i kind of think that jack just might be mafia? i honestly need someone to talk me down from why. why should i not be scumreading jack right now? what am i missing?

^^here is the part just about jack with better formatting if anyone has any thoughts they can give me, since this is the main things i want opinions on rn anyway

I read your posts, i just believe in my read more, but letting u know ur not alone / insane

Sean is having like an emo period, falcon is a trolling wolf and rondo went ham on the crack tonight, its calm, choose to not change ur emotional disposition due to them, its their stuff, it only impacts u if u choose to let it

[RondoDimBuckle]

Bereft
Rondo
Creature
Seanzie
Dennis

Sig
Kate
Porscha
Falcon

Tutuu
DrWigly
Kate

Jack
Roxy

People who can fool me who i don't have as lock town, nor do i particularly townread, but we shouldn't kill:
spf
mac

I am interested why you dropped your wolf read on me and decided not to try to dome me

[Porscha]

So here’s the thing I’m not building a case right now. But, we’re in 1 of 2 scenarios

1: Town is playing an extremely stupid game with almost no logic behind it.

2: Mafia are essentially leading the game with maybe a low key player or two onboard.

I’m thinking 2 I think mafia used the night card to get Allison yanked very early into the day so they could then “follow her legacy reads” for the next few phases. This’ll cause both me and Roxy to be voted off eliminated two more civs during the day + 2 night kills and they’ll get away with it due to bad town game play and general mehness.

So I’m leaning toward Mac being civ his frustration right now doesn’t seem to be coming from a place of mafia, I’d also say Roxy is a civ since mafia roxy wouldn’t storm off like that.

I’m very much thinking TuuTuu is mafia. She’s active she’s around and she’s even pushing votes but doing very little in the splash making department. She’s also heavily pushing the plan ti follow Alison legacy.

Also on that note one of Allison legacy reads of mafia was Neon who alreayd flipped civ so why are we even thinking about letting her decide the wagons from the grave! This is extra true when you consider a card was played to remove her and we’ve got no clue what alignment played it

are you only laughing at the part about you or the entire post?

[Porscha]

[VOTE: mac] aubergine

Are you trying to buddy me?

If you don't think I've been SR Mac for a long time...scratch that, I know you do.

falcon what do you think of literally anyone else

[sig]

Also are we just going to keep ignoring that Rondo is still claiming IC?

[sig]

So here’s the thing I’m not building a case right now. But, we’re in 1 of 2 scenarios

1: Town is playing an extremely stupid game with almost no logic behind it.

2: Mafia are essentially leading the game with maybe a low key player or two onboard.

I’m thinking 2 I think mafia used the night card to get Allison yanked very early into the day so they could then “follow her legacy reads” for the next few phases. This’ll cause both me and Roxy to be voted off eliminated two more civs during the day + 2 night kills and they’ll get away with it due to bad town game play and general mehness.

So I’m leaning toward Mac being civ his frustration right now doesn’t seem to be coming from a place of mafia, I’d also say Roxy is a civ since mafia roxy wouldn’t storm off like that.

I’m very much thinking TuuTuu is mafia. She’s active she’s around and she’s even pushing votes but doing very little in the splash making department. She’s also heavily pushing the plan ti follow Alison legacy.

Also on that note one of Allison legacy reads of mafia was Neon who alreayd flipped civ so why are we even thinking about letting her decide the wagons from the grave! This is extra true when you consider a card was played to remove her and we’ve got no clue what alignment played it

Mafia response

[RondoDimBuckle]

Also are we just going to keep ignoring that Rondo is still claiming IC?

It is not claiming. I am

[RondoDimBuckle]

Oracle however I am 50/50 on. I dont mind sharing with Lucy

[Creature]

Bereft
Rondo
Creature
Seanzie
Dennis

Sig
Kate
Porscha
Falcon

Tutuu
DrWigly
Kate

Jack
Roxy

People who can fool me who i don't have as lock town, nor do i particularly townread, but we shouldn't kill:
spf
mac

Why do you have sig and Kate so high?

(wait you listed Kate twice)

[sig]

Okay, so I guess everyone is ignoring we’ve got two oracles claims then

[tutuu]

So here’s the thing I’m not building a case right now. But, we’re in 1 of 2 scenarios

1: Town is playing an extremely stupid game with almost no logic behind it.

2: Mafia are essentially leading the game with maybe a low key player or two onboard.

I’m thinking 2 I think mafia used the night card to get Allison yanked very early into the day so they could then “follow her legacy reads” for the next few phases. This’ll cause both me and Roxy to be voted off eliminated two more civs during the day + 2 night kills and they’ll get away with it due to bad town game play and general mehness.

So I’m leaning toward Mac being civ his frustration right now doesn’t seem to be coming from a place of mafia, I’d also say Roxy is a civ since mafia roxy wouldn’t storm off like that.

I’m very much thinking TuuTuu is mafia. She’s active she’s around and she’s even pushing votes but doing very little in the splash making department. She’s also heavily pushing the plan ti follow Alison legacy.

Also on that note one of Allison legacy reads of mafia was Neon who alreayd flipped civ so why are we even thinking about letting her decide the wagons from the grave! This is extra true when you consider a card was played to remove her and we’ve got no clue what alignment played it

are you only laughing at the part about you or the entire post?

The last paragraph too

[tutuu]

So here’s the thing I’m not building a case right now. But, we’re in 1 of 2 scenarios

1: Town is playing an extremely stupid game with almost no logic behind it.

2: Mafia are essentially leading the game with maybe a low key player or two onboard.

I’m thinking 2 I think mafia used the night card to get Allison yanked very early into the day so they could then “follow her legacy reads” for the next few phases. This’ll cause both me and Roxy to be voted off eliminated two more civs during the day + 2 night kills and they’ll get away with it due to bad town game play and general mehness.

So I’m leaning toward Mac being civ his frustration right now doesn’t seem to be coming from a place of mafia, I’d also say Roxy is a civ since mafia roxy wouldn’t storm off like that.

I’m very much thinking TuuTuu is mafia. She’s active she’s around and she’s even pushing votes but doing very little in the splash making department. She’s also heavily pushing the plan ti follow Alison legacy.

Also on that note one of Allison legacy reads of mafia was Neon who alreayd flipped civ so why are we even thinking about letting her decide the wagons from the grave! This is extra true when you consider a card was played to remove her and we’ve got no clue what alignment played it

Mafia response

MaFiA rEsPoNsE

[sig]

So here’s the thing I’m not building a case right now. But, we’re in 1 of 2 scenarios

1: Town is playing an extremely stupid game with almost no logic behind it.

2: Mafia are essentially leading the game with maybe a low key player or two onboard.

I’m thinking 2 I think mafia used the night card to get Allison yanked very early into the day so they could then “follow her legacy reads” for the next few phases. This’ll cause both me and Roxy to be voted off eliminated two more civs during the day + 2 night kills and they’ll get away with it due to bad town game play and general mehness.

So I’m leaning toward Mac being civ his frustration right now doesn’t seem to be coming from a place of mafia, I’d also say Roxy is a civ since mafia roxy wouldn’t storm off like that.

I’m very much thinking TuuTuu is mafia. She’s active she’s around and she’s even pushing votes but doing very little in the splash making department. She’s also heavily pushing the plan ti follow Alison legacy.

Also on that note one of Allison legacy reads of mafia was Neon who alreayd flipped civ so why are we even thinking about letting her decide the wagons from the grave! This is extra true when you consider a card was played to remove her and we’ve got no clue what alignment played it

Mafia response

MaFiA rEsPoNsE

Okay then how about childish response? Since that definitely applies now.

[Creature]

my frustration right now is less about being voted and more about what i perceive as a general lack of communication, which is an issue that extends beyond my slot. i am cranky and tired right now so i should probably stop posting until i get some sleep

that said i would appreciate if anyone who is around can read through the wallpost i made earlier on this page and give me any thoughts they have. i would find it helpful for my own solving rn

I am also feeling pretty tired. I just finished watching the finale of Alice in Borderland.

tbh I've already voiced my concern about you listing me alongside three of my wolfreads then saying I was wolfsiding. Also the points I see you use against me feel like the same recycled shit. Whenever I have a read on someone you go "creature is being confident he must be wolf" even though nowhere I implied being confident on it.

[Creature]

Okay, so I guess everyone is ignoring we’ve got two oracles claims then

I think Rondo's just trolling.

[Bereft]

Why is sig selfvoting?

[RondoDimBuckle]

Okay, so I guess everyone is ignoring we’ve got two oracles claims then

I think Rondo's just trolling.

It is within my range sure

[Creature]

This game just makes me sad.

[VOTE: Sabiplz] aubergine

[Creature]

Oh lol Mac is selfvoting too

What is going on with this game?

[RondoDimBuckle]

self vote time

[Porscha]

B. If you hadn't noticed I have Creature as solid town, falcon as lean town, and Porscha as town, and Mac/SPF may have some deviations here but none of us are put bulldozing these players.
C. Actually I simply think town got off to a horrible start D1. I say this from the simple fact of the Baudib's wagon existence. I know you don't agree that Baudib was obvious town but as far as I'm concerned there was at minimum some number of town pursuing things that I would label inadvisable and there were definitely tensions that grew from the fact that Alison/Mac/Lucy/Baudib were telling people to "shut up and stop doing stupid things because we said so", and so these people never got around the fact that they think Mac's controlling the game in an evil direction simply from the fact he told them to stop wagoning their pet scumreads. That's a very nice story and all, but my point is that I don't actually current think you need that much control over the game to get a successful Moon use to cause an Alison chop. The recipe was right there, in D1, no one trusted Alison, and you want to know who pushed Alison and added to the boiling pot? Spoiler alert, its some of the people I'm suspecting.

The obvious counterargument is "but what about Mac's D2, he told everyone to vote for Alison for however long" to which I will simply state that I understand the concern but actually here's how to read Mac, so we segue into:

A. The first point about reading Mac, is that you can get a good idea just entirely based on Mac's stated reads, not their accuracy, but his stated explanations and read development. Mac's great at spinning BS and bussing, but the point is that he's not great at faking reasonable reads or for that matter reevaluating. I'm not going to bother explaining why I think Mac's D1 reads are reasonable since you obviously don't think they are and I will only come off as even more a snob. However, Mac's ... breakdown D2 is as far as I'm concerned a v!Mac. Do you think w!Mac bothers faking vulnerability? Not well, not in any way thats grounded. He stated clearly why he suddenly pivoted onto Alison, and thats because of a breakdown in confidence of worldview. Why was there a breadown in confidence of worldview? Because certain of his scumreads were showing town entitlement, these were Falcon and (Dr.Wilgy? I cant remember and I might be biased) and he had never expressed townreading Alison that confidently. Then he switches to actually I change my mind, I haven't a clue, and actually don't kill Alison. This is a massive amount of flexibility and whether you like it or not, its not easy to pull of convincingly as wolf, nor does it give him any benefit of wolf when everyone will be going "bro wtf was that". I am not going to talk about Mac's D3 and attempt to justify that its genuine frustration on Mac's part, but that is what I think.

In any case, it is much easier for me to say "oh I townread Mac", because I can follow basically all of his stated thought processes while others have not.

X. I strongly believe in my own ability to read Mac to speculate on the w/w nature of the interactions you cited. Besides the fact that I think most preflip claimed w/w interactions are in general weak, I do think SPF could have come to a similar assessment as I have, and this is just based on SPF being a stronger player and they've already echoed my general thrust that the reason Mac is town is that "actually Mac is polarized". And lastly, the point where Mac doubles around and asks SPF "so why don't you scumread me" is emblematic of Mac's townplay in that he will ask pointed questions out of the blue to the people he townreads for paranoia reasons. Theoretically SPF can be a wolf in all of this but these are not interactions w/w with Mac. Mac as a wolf would've likely theatred more with SPF as a partner, this interaction is pretty tame.




Why did I do this to myself.

yuuuuuge mindmeld on this and I appreciate how you analyzed spf in it too since I always feel in the dark on her. I think at worst it's w/t with spf as the wolf but maybe I was too worried about my inability to read her that I moved her down due to The Fear. i'm still pensive on her but your read gives me more confidence to do this

[Porscha]

If this is a miss, I'm going ham on SPF/Mac/Bereft. If it is a hit, I'm accusing them of bussing.

so youre just announcing youre going ham on spf/mac/bereft regardless of what sig flips? lol.........

[Porscha]

OK I managed to a couple of people's iso that yall told to me read (people I know. How to read)

Mac - I feel like he's in his town meta? Idk he seems towny. His annoyance and melt down feels genuine.

Falcon - since he's posting and engaged with the game he's town. Low bar I know.

Wilgz - idk he seems weird but idk he has a long streak of wolf Rands so idk of the weirdness is based off that.

Jack: seams awkward and spazzy. I just don't get him?

Creature - idk I don't see the town creature that I know him for. There's no doom and gloom posting. There's no crankiness.

Still need to read spf and Seanzie and Porscha.

Thank you for giving me space and time.

you're welcome but I could really use more from you than this lol
gth who you shooting rn?

[Creature]

self vote time

Okay.

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

Also lol just realized Sabiplz silently OMGUS voted me.

[Sabiplz]

OK I managed to a couple of people's iso that yall told to me read (people I know. How to read)

Mac - I feel like he's in his town meta? Idk he seems towny. His annoyance and melt down feels genuine.

Falcon - since he's posting and engaged with the game he's town. Low bar I know.

Wilgz - idk he seems weird but idk he has a long streak of wolf Rands so idk of the weirdness is based off that.

Jack: seams awkward and spazzy. I just don't get him?

Creature - idk I don't see the town creature that I know him for. There's no doom and gloom posting. There's no crankiness.

Still need to read spf and Seanzie and Porscha.

Thank you for giving me space and time.

you're welcome but I could really use more from you than this lol
gth who you shooting rn?

I spent all day running errands and I'm still retired from mafia.

This is all the effort you're getting.

I'm probably shooting creature tbh

[Sabiplz]

self vote time

Okay.

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

Also lol just realized Sabiplz silently OMGUS voted me.

Excuse me, I sussed u before you voted me

[Sabiplz]

Porscha: mad when anyone ask her to put in effort when she's busy

Also porscha: let me fucking get on sabi's back about not having enough effort.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Porscha: mad when anyone ask her to put in effort when she's busy

Also porscha: let me fucking get on sabi's back about not having enough effort.

yeah the Irony was not lost on me. I laughed a good laugh. But I do want more from you or you're going over which is anti-town if you are town so If you could show that would be nice

[Jackofhearts2005]

this is a great game with solid communication and im fully enjoying myself

[Dennis]

seanzie i think it's valid to say that i haven't tried particularly hard to explain why i townread mac in this game or how i'm getting a read on him general. i guess i want to clarify that:

A. i perceive mac to be one of the easiest players to read in this game. i have been horribly wrong about mac quite recently but broadly speaking i am usually able to tell the difference between his alignment somewhat easily and i have also been able to correctly scumread him every time he has randed wolf against me (which tbf, i think is only like twice)

the fact that i feel confident about my ability to read mac relative to the rest of this playerlist means that i have subsquently put less effort into explaining my thoughts about him, but in short:

-mac has consistently shifted and flip-flopped and changed his worldview, even at points when it would not be strategically beneficial for him to do so. for example, why does wolf!mac suddenly shift his positioning on alison yesterday and call alison mafia when he was previously positioned as someone defending alison? alison likely would have gone down without his influence anyway, so it makes more sense for mac!wolf to stick to defending alison to look good from her flipping town instead of making himself look bad by calling alison mafia right before she died

-mac as town is extremely unconfident about his ability to read me and also tends to scumread me for breathing. this aligns with mac insisting that his legacy read on me should NOT be used for me to defend myself, with him randomly voting me and calling me mafia yesterday, with him grilling me about specific stuff (ie: "why can't seanzie just be right?"). this is theoretically possible for mac to fake as a wolf but he has treated me in a way that aligns with the way i would expect him to be treating me as town

-i think that mac struggles to make some of the posts he has made today as a wolf, including his general alienation from the gamestate and the way that he lost his temper earlier

yeah idk i just think he's town. i might not be able to explain it more coherently than that. anything else i have to say was already said by bereft

Kinda sounds like Maf appeasement here tbh

[VOTE: spf] aubergine

be so real for just a moment

I don't like how you asked for an explanation on why spf read Mac the way she does and then said 'You're sus for answering my question'. It just doesn't make sense to me, would you rather not get a response at all? Or what was it you were looking for?

So here’s the thing I’m not building a case right now. But, we’re in 1 of 2 scenarios

1: Town is playing an extremely stupid game with almost no logic behind it.

2: Mafia are essentially leading the game with maybe a low key player or two onboard.

I’m thinking 2 I think mafia used the night card to get Allison yanked very early into the day so they could then “follow her legacy reads” for the next few phases. This’ll cause both me and Roxy to be voted off eliminated two more civs during the day + 2 night kills and they’ll get away with it due to bad town game play and general mehness.

So I’m leaning toward Mac being civ his frustration right now doesn’t seem to be coming from a place of mafia, I’d also say Roxy is a civ since mafia roxy wouldn’t storm off like that.

I’m very much thinking TuuTuu is mafia. She’s active she’s around and she’s even pushing votes but doing very little in the splash making department. She’s also heavily pushing the plan ti follow Alison legacy.

Also on that note one of Allison legacy reads of mafia was Neon who alreayd flipped civ so why are we even thinking about letting her decide the wagons from the grave! This is extra true when you consider a card was played to remove her and we’ve got no clue what alignment played it

Please elaborate on what this means, and how tutuu is failing that

[Dennis]

Why are we being so demanding of Sabi despite the fact that they're on mafia break and were pretty damn nice to step up and sub in during that break anyways

Lay off a bit, guys

[Sabiplz]

Porscha: mad when anyone ask her to put in effort when she's busy

Also porscha: let me fucking get on sabi's back about not having enough effort.

yeah the Irony was not lost on me. I laughed a good laugh. But I do want more from you or you're going over which is anti-town if you are town so If you could show that would be nice

I subbed into the Game as a favor and even said I was low effort ing this game due to my busy irlness and being on a break.

Either I catch up to this game or just not read thru the game and just real time. Take your pick because I have no one to give me info on what the fuck happened this game.

[tutuu]

Porscha: mad when anyone ask her to put in effort when she's busy

Also porscha: let me fucking get on sabi's back about not having enough effort.

sabi is lock town

(im not counting my posts if i go over post cap and die im gonna laugh)

[Dennis]

Porscha: mad when anyone ask her to put in effort when she's busy

Also porscha: let me fucking get on sabi's back about not having enough effort.

sabi is lock town

(im not counting my posts if i go over post cap and die im gonna laugh)

I just checked your ISO I think you're at 61 including this post. Somewhere around there

[tutuu]

im willing to entertain jack mafia and if so, im wrong on either porscha or creature and one of those is town

all my other reads remain unchanged from those cases i did earlier

[Jackofhearts2005]

So like I’m massively pinged by Creature. SPF and Mac have made meta cases against Creature. I want to yeet Creature. The closest thing I have to a reason not to do this is recently being wrong on Alison and a probably illogical worry that I’m going to receive more pressure and have less thread pull with a t!Creature yeet than a t!Roxy yeet. This does not override my scumread but it is in my brain.

Alison said to yeet Roxy. Roxy has done fuck all. Roxy has scum equity w/Creature. I want to yeet Roxy but given I haven’t read any Roxy posts that I didn’t specifically go looking for in her iso and given her very short iso, I don’t feel as confident there as I feel on Creature.

I’m hoping these are both wolves and it doesn’t fucking matter but in the spirit of working with my townreads to make them more affective, fucking order me from one wagon to the other as you will @staypositivefriend @falcon45ca @tutuu.

This is also partly so I don’t get SPF twisting herself in a knot trying to figure out if I’m bussing or distancing or saving or whatever.


I also wanna yeet Rondo but it’s not the ideal play today. I’m just saying. Rondo bad.

[tutuu]

Porscha: mad when anyone ask her to put in effort when she's busy

Also porscha: let me fucking get on sabi's back about not having enough effort.

sabi is lock town

(im not counting my posts if i go over post cap and die im gonna laugh)

I just checked your ISO I think you're at 61 including this post. Somewhere around there

u a real one

[tutuu]

So like I’m massively pinged by Creature. SPF and Mac have made meta cases against Creature. I want to yeet Creature. The closest thing I have to a reason not to do this is recently being wrong on Alison and a probably illogical worry that I’m going to receive more pressure and have less thread pull with a t!Creature yeet than a t!Roxy yeet. This does not override my scumread but it is in my brain.

Alison said to yeet Roxy. Roxy has done fuck all. Roxy has scum equity w/Creature. I want to yeet Roxy but given I haven’t read any Roxy posts that I didn’t specifically go looking for in her iso and given her very short iso, I don’t feel as confident there as I feel on Creature.

I’m hoping these are both wolves and it doesn’t fucking matter but in the spirit of working with my townreads to make them more affective, fucking order me from one wagon to the other as you will @staypositivefriend @falcon45ca @tutuu.

This is also partly so I don’t get SPF twisting herself in a knot trying to figure out if I’m bussing or distancing or saving or whatever.


I also wanna yeet Rondo but it’s not the ideal play today. I’m just saying. Rondo bad.

roxy first please, we promised alison

alison's last words were

roxy > neon > creature > sig iirc

[Jackofhearts2005]

It’s honestly not worth considering if I’m a wolf at all because even if I was, you’re not yeeting me before [your suspects here] so it doesn’t honestly matter.

[tutuu]

Why is sig selfvoting?

i think he either missclicked or he's representing an emotional reaction to my emojis but he doesn't wanna go as far as to fake being too upset coz it's not very characteristic of him (hence not saying anything) (ive never seen him upset neither in mafia nor on discord)

[Jackofhearts2005]

[VOTE: Roxy] aubergine

Also, Roxy wagon is way more pure than Creature wagon.

Shouldn’t matter. I expect wolves to bus these slots.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Sig has moved down with his recent posts. I still strongly think Falcon is town.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Porscha: mad when anyone ask her to put in effort when she's busy

Also porscha: let me fucking get on sabi's back about not having enough effort.

yeah the Irony was not lost on me. I laughed a good laugh. But I do want more from you or you're going over which is anti-town if you are town so If you could show that would be nice

I subbed into the Game as a favor and even said I was low effort ing this game due to my busy irlness and being on a break.

Either I catch up to this game or just not read thru the game and just real time. Take your pick because I have no one to give me info on what the fuck happened this game.

Its simple, people wanted to yeet Alison for some reason and the wagon was solidly Alison / Baudib1 for the most of end of day (screen shots in my ISO in case anything I am saying is incorrecT)

Roxy was the backup sacrificial lamb with Kate catching some good sus as well. There were some other good wagons as well but they are in my ISO as screen shots so you can see them.

Then Mac came in said Finger is sus and Lucy/Mac/Me all pushed the finger wagon over the Alison wagon with other hangers on joining in.

Then some bullshit happened with Alison getting killed over Roxy because people forgot a card existed that if you voted like idiots you would be made to look like one that can end the day early and now everyone has been coasting today waitng for Roxy to die

Oh and Baudib1 got mod killed and Neon got night killed at random because a card said spin the wheel

Day 1 Poll

Spoiler: show

fingersplints: 8
Alison
Baudib1
Bereft
lucy
MacDougall
RondoDimBuckle
staypositivefriend
tutuu

Alison: 6
falcon45ca
fingersplints
Jackofhearts2005
Neon
Roxy
sig

Baudib1: 2
DrWilgy
Seanzie

Roxy:
Creature
Dennis

Dennis : 1
Kate

Missed the Vote: 1
Porscha

Why are we being so demanding of Sabi despite the fact that they're on mafia break and were pretty damn nice to step up and sub in during that break anyways

Lay off a bit, guys

There is a [REDACTED] that [REDACTED] got [REDACTED] [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] got [REDACTED]for [REDACTED] instead of getting [REDACTED] [REDACTED] and that is because [REDACTED] is a [REDACTED] and the [REDACTED] [REDACTED][REDACTED]to wait for a [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] is on [REDACTED][REDACTED] and didnt give a [REDACTED] about the [REDACTED][REDACTED]

[tutuu]

Why is sig selfvoting?

i think he either missclicked or he's representing an emotional reaction to my emojis but he doesn't wanna go as far as to fake being too upset coz it's not very characteristic of him (hence not saying anything) (ive never seen him upset neither in mafia nor on discord)

or potential antispew

[RondoDimBuckle]

[VOTE: Roxy] aubergine

Also, Roxy wagon is way more pure than Creature wagon.

Shouldn’t matter. I expect wolves to bus these slots.

if Roxy is a wolf this is Jack getting on early because I projected where the Oracles are going to land and he wants in on the bus. Thoughts? Or am I just full of it?

[Jackofhearts2005]

[VOTE: Roxy] aubergine

Also, Roxy wagon is way more pure than Creature wagon.

Shouldn’t matter. I expect wolves to bus these slots.

if Roxy is a wolf this is Jack getting on early because I projected where the Oracles are going to land and he wants in on the bus. Thoughts? Or am I just full of it?

I literally gave control of my vote to another player. Tell me you’re just takin the piss.