The Syndicate

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:11 amif you want my honest opinion, if you really are town, then you should ignore c4 completely from here on out. focus solely on my posts. focus solely on reading me

i got the impression that you came into today feeling like i must be a wolf based on visor leaving me as his final legacy and based on you being suspicious of me at the end of yesterday, and i have felt that much of your posting has been based around "confirming" your intuitive belief that c4 is a villager instead of evaluating us both from a neutral position and then starting from there. i feel like your gut points to me being a wolf but you're scared of voting for me and losing to the "easy" answer of c4. that's why i think you should stop caring about c4 (or about winning, in general) and just focus on whether or not you think MY posts are villagery, independent of everything

if you're a wolf then this post is gonna age so badly lol

For what it's worth, I like this post a lot.

And then copy paste the last line lol

@staypositivefriend I'm asking you to be patient with me.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:46 am

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:34 am One thing I haven't considered is... SPF posting a huge wall of very good reasons why I'm not wolf and not teamed with Dya/Vul is also not scummy. Cause if she's wolf, she doesn't want to convince c4 that I'm in fact town. Lol.

that's correct. if i'm a wolf then i want c4 to vote for you before i vote for him - it would be much easier to appeal directly to c4 and pretend like i "found" him instead of taking the harder route and trying to get you, who explicitly wolfread me at the end of yesterday, to vote for c4. the fact that i have been pretty harsh toward your posts today is also not the type of approach i'd be taking if my ultimate goal was to convince you to vote for c4

Can you accept that I'm really scared though, if you're town?
Maybe it's paranoia, but gut feeling is not good right now.
Also, why is c4 still on trying to make a me wolf happen? Is it just cause he can't naturally walk back on his read on you? Is he hedging to not get outed?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:57 pmEveryone familiar with Dizzy who might have helped me read him is dead
I asked nut to hold my hand through the Dizzy read in anticipation of something like this and it just didn't fucking happen
I tried to lead by example n shit by explaining my read on you
My read on you got Visor killed and then disappeared from the minds of everyone it might have been relevant to as far as I can tell
That's the plain solving stuff that I do know well aaaaaaaand it's gone

I don't know how to do these
You know who might have? Fucking Visor

I never understood what your problem was with me in the first place.
If you speak about Nut, she did in fact explain to you several times why I'm town. I did as well. Literally everyone who knows me have.

This whole situation is just awkward.

Can you explain what makes it hard for you here when you have had such a confident read on SPF all game?
I know this is a strange question coming from me.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:43 pm @dizzy - a couple of other things:

-you're generally correct that wolves don't tend to hard townread their partners at the beginning of the game, but you might be overstating it a bit by saying that it is "extremely rare". i almost lost the LYLO of a mountainous game for this exact reason - marluxion (a wolf) had strongly townread two other players at the beginning of the game, and both of them were wolves! i almost mishammered because of the belief that marl would not immediately TR his 2 partners, and if you're a villager then im warning you right now that putting stock into micro things like that is going to get you burned sooner than later

I have also done it. But I do it on purpose for the wifom. I would say it is rather rare. I think c4's first town read on Vul is NAI, because it comes after both Arete and Marl has also outed their strong town reads on Vul (And Vul was acting very towny). But the phrase of "No, he just is town" is pretty ballsy as scum. I mean... it is though.

-same thing about putting too much trust in c4 not having enough knowledge about mechanics - c4 was clearly not very invested in this game past d1 and making assumptions about how much information he would have had about what went down during the night phases is effectively just speculation (and i mean, all of mafia is, but the speculation here is inherently even more baseless than other types)

It is speculation, you're right. And I do generally think it's dangerous to speculate what is going on in wolf chat, cause I just don't know. And also, I think it's easy to assume that wolves plan and chat more in wolf chat than they typically do. That being said, this did stick out to me, and I can't really skip over it either.

Is there a reason you skipped over this btw?

And also the point where it looked like c4 missed that I had linked Dya and Vul togheter?

^I think those two points are very interesting in my ISO.

And I realise now that if I'm going to argue that c4 is town to you, then you have to argue that I'm scum, which isn't going to go over well for me lol. But did these posts strike you at all?

-you said this in your post about c4: "But then, c4's posts are actually overall quite good and I follow his mindset, and even where there's flip that also looks natural."

um.....excuse me??? you agreed with me on the last page that c4's flip on dya was wolfy, and then you not only did not mention it a single time in your ISO of him (from what i could tell), you went on to say that his flips have actually not been wolfy at all. what!? are we reading the same game?

Actually, you're half right. There are a few flips that doesn't make sense. The Dya one on D2 is one. However, he did explain this, and I did ask him about it specifically. And the Vul vote is still out of the blue kind of.

I mean, the things I was the most hmmm about, I asked about.

But him opening with a scum read on you, and then retracting it, I think that looks pretty natural. And this is very much a bias I have, but if I use the lens of "could a townie think this", I follow most of his game. This may be frustrating.

I have a few hours before work now. Going to start reading your ISO. And then Vul's. And then see who's landing on top here.

But ultimately, I don't know if it even matters. It feels to me like whatever team c4 is on is going to lose with how this is going.

One thing I haven't considered is... SPF posting a huge wall of very good reasons why I'm not wolf and not teamed with Dya/Vul is also not scummy. Cause if she's wolf, she doesn't want to convince c4 that I'm in fact town. Lol.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:26 pm I recognize all the problems I'm facing right now and literally don't have a single clue what question I could ask that would address any of them

What are the problems?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:18 pmObviously right now I'd vote you, but it's a hard decision because you're not wolfy. I haven't had any actual complaints about your play for three cycles, and I haven't been able to seriously push you despite constantly having every reason to. In most gamestates this would mean the shrug answer is wrong and I made a mistake somewhere, but there aren't a ton of places where that mistake could be anymore.

I also have to weigh the fact that I'm in an inherently better position to understand how spf is out of her wolf range than how you are. Basically I have to do due diligence but don't really get how in this situation.

This is a little bit strange to me.
First of all, "not a ton of places" is an understatement.
What do you mean by this?
If you think you know that SPF is out of her wolf range, shouldn't you be just sure that it's me?
I mean, it's not.
And if you are town, you are wrong on SPF. It's really as simple as that.

Was holding out hope for a good reason she ghosted, that's largely how I got to PR. I got that it was bad but then found a world where it was good. Call it plinko-boardy if you want.

That doesn't really answer the question I asked.
I asked why she would be scum for not claiming, when the initial reasons you had for town reading her didn't have anything to do with her ghosting, but with her reaction to being read w/w with Gavial?

Only thing I recall off the top of my head was getting pissed at Marl for FPSing, sorry to disappoint.

Well, the question was how you went from being sure Vul was town to immediately voting him when Sunbae outed. Maybe looking at it will jog your memory?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:47 pm i really appreciate the work that dizzy put into ISO'ing c4 and sharing his thoughts, but i don't understand how we both read the same ISO and there is virtually zero overlap in our observations, or conclusions, or our overall impressions of his posts. even the stuff he agreed with me on is missing from his analysis of c4. i just dont get it

It’s not really (in my head anyway) But I think I’m approaching this from trying to find the most sure sign of who is town. I think that is safer, as town can be scummy, but I’ve historically done better finding things only town would do.

And I haven’t done your iso yet.
And not Vul’s, which I definitely want to.
So I haven’t made my mind up.
KZA and Dya spew on you as town is still weighing on me.

On phone now and 1 am, so will likely not get deep into things now.

Two more things:

- If c4 is wolf, it doesn’t make as much sense to me that both Vul and Dya decided to lolcat and basically give up? I don’t think c4 was in a position to carry, whereas spf was. Alternatively they just didn’t care I guess.
- Also, on D4, c4 really spent time clearing everyone but Syn and me + Dya. The way he plays it seems like a losing battle if wolf. Counter argument is maybe how else should he have played it? Opening PoE would be obviously scummy.

These things doesn’t fit very smoothly with a c4 wolf imo.

But I wish he was here more and fleshed out his thoughts more. I feel his style is different than mine, and maybe I’m basing too much off of what I would have done/thought.

@c4e5g3d5 Also, can you talk about your vote on Vul on D3? You made the vote 2 min after Sunbae outed. Do you recall what was going on in your head at the time?

I hate it, but I need to force myself to go to bed.
I'm so sorry that I take forever reading. I wish I didn't. But I can't let a mafia game fuck up my sleep. I'm pretty new in my job, and it's very demanding. I don't have such a long day tomorrow though, and I will do my best to read SPF and Vul ISO as well. Hopefully there's time to do that.

Done with my ISO on c4.

And to be absolutely honest
I have such a hard time seeing him as wolf. For some specific things.
Now, my tabs apparently refuse to open up in chronological order.
So my ISO thing won't be as fancy as SPF's.

- I first checked when c4 called Vulgard a confident town read. It was after both Arete and Marl had, which is significant. So no points there. Parroting a strong town read is easier. However, saying it first as a teammate is very rare at the start of the game.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 2:01 pm

Hally wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 1:28 pm vulgard seems like a villager

No he just is

So this. If c4 is a wolf, he's cooler than me. I don't think I'd ever dare this on D1 if it was about my teammate.
I mean, I could consider that it was a wolf plan to hard read Vul town and it was done with the intention of WIFOM.
But I feel like these kinds of posts are extremely hard to make for most if w/w.
I don't know how cool c4 is.
But it would surprise me if w/w.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:08 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:03 am

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:15 am She's one of the easiest reads out there if you know what you're doing.

Noting the bolded. What's your read there now, then?

Off the top of my head, her treatment of Tang was kinda sorta like town spf because of the dynamism alone.

Just a funny interaction that breaks my brayn because of this F3.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 5:35 pm spf sunbae Vulgard 3/3 core
nut prolly threadspewed
Couldn't give fewer shits about dya unless Seth flips green
Couldn't give fewer shits about Hally and Zack unless KZA flips green

Alison
Amy
Arete
Dyslexicon
Marluxion
outed wolf
Tangrowth

Someone gimme their most urgent legacy top townie in that bunch

This mid section of what I guess is PoE are all town lol. D1.
That is not condemning to me. Tbh, it's probably more > town for most players. Depending on style, I guess.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 9:40 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 4:38 am

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:58 pm dya v for thinking the scumreads on them are unfair

Why do you think this? Your takes have been fine so far, but this one stands out as unjustified to me.

Because correct scumreads aren't unfair duh. Apparently everything is NAI meta though.

I thought I would have something to say about this. Ough.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:46 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:44 pm What exactly have you done that's out of your wolfrange c4?

This whole damn game

You saw me freeze on every single push I ever made in CoV
You saw me do jack shit to advance jack shit from my worldview in CoV
You saw me shamelessly TMI every controversial name in CoV

How tf

"I'm not like in CoV".
Fucking CoV.
So Dya was in CoV.
If I squint a little, I could see Dya helping c4 be exactly like not in CoV. c4 also shows awareness of how he was in a previous scum game and could then adjust. But this type of defence is more often town imo.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 5:26 pm Obviously if Alison doesn't actually get in here and claim she's a wolf, but I'm still considering that a big if.

@c4e5g3d5 Can you talk about this? You had other reasons for reading Alison town than assuming she was PT. Why would she then be a wolf if she didn't claim PT, wouldn't those reasons still apply?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:18 am

Vulgard wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:15 am Why are you preflipping Dya as a wolf?

I... think they're a wolf

But I don't need to think they're a wolf to say something that looks like a save attempt looks like a save attempt.

This is pretty oof.
More so on Vul's end.
Again, I probably will get more out of ISOing Vul.
c4 looks fine a lot. Vul's interactions with him are more awkward.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 1:49 pm I have a bunch of unsorted thoughts that I'll probably forget by the end of this conversation but

sunbae wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 7:19 pm i targeted outed wolf as an angel target, not vulgard

Holup holup holup holup holup

Am I reading this correctly as there being two separate targets?
A block and a doc? Not the same target?

Which means Vulgard being town doesn't necessarily mean he was the kill
Which would've been nice to know before everyone started screaming difference check and not after

And Visor is still a weird ass kill but it would've been good to know that was what we were working with ya know?

But this though.
This is like half a derp.
c4 doesn't seem to understand how a jailkeeper even works.
I mean, derps are dangerous, maybe he derped as wolf, but I think it would be reasonable to assume that he would know as a wolf?
And this is a bit ...weird if w/w with Vul?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:57 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:55 pm dizzy is literally the reason sunbae chose vulgard

he pointed out those vulgard/dya w/w looking things

dizzy does not do that if hes teamed with them, he does that as astute village

dizzy is not a wolf

Where was this

This I also find very interesting.
This is either very well done or very badly done if wolf lol.
Cause I would expect a wolf to have paid attention to me calling out literally their two living teammates in a link. Unless he just wasn't paying attention at all. Which honestly, that is plausible. And I shouldn't assume that they even talked about it in wolf chat. Cause maybe they just didn't or c4 didn't catch it.
But if he did catch it, it's very well done to pretend he didn't.

So I guess I land on he legit didn't catch it, but he could've skipped it even if wolf. I guess I'm not that important lol.

But I don't remember how much this was talked about.
I mean, both Sunbae and Vul did make a thing out of my link.
So should c4 not be able to pay attention to it, and wouldn't he be more likely to catch it as a wolf?
I would thinks so.

---

I guess these are my thoughts and comment on c4.

But I also have more general thoughts.
- Some places it looks like c4 is basically open wolfing. And from what I gather, he kind of did that in CoV. Fucking CoV. Saying "What if it's me?" and even "I'm in danger" meme today. It cringe.

And like, some of Vul's and Dya's interactions with c4 are ...not that good.

But then, c4's posts are actually overall quite good and I follow his mindset, and even where there's flip that also looks natural.

Thanks, I hate it.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:33 pm im gay

Towny mindmeld

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:19 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:13 pm And it doesn't really make sense that you would be so worried about me being so critical of you. If I was wolf, I'm pretty sure I could surf into a win with us voting c4. If I was a wolf, then I probably would be more invested in commenting and propping up your book about how c4 and not me is the wolf here. Don't you think? Or has this not struck you?

that has occurred to me, but i care more about seeing signs that you are genuinely trying to solve the game more than i care about how much you are or aren't pushing on me. you probably could have an easier time as a wolf by just vaguely agreeing w/me that c4 is wolfy and leaving it at that, so i might agree with you that your approach to today and your paranoia toward me is villagery, but that's so much more WIFOM-y than me just being able to look at your posts and say: "cool, dizzy is really trying to solve the game!", you know?

to be clear, i still think that you're probably a villager, and i don't mean to stress you out. i just feel like if there's any time to kick things into gear in this game, it's right now. i hope to see the results of your own readthrough

Alright. Well, I am indeed reading ISOs now. And I'm an incredibly slow reader, which is extremely annoying. It's probably because I stop at every post try to take in all possible implications and possible interpretations and it's taking fucking forever, and I don't have forever. But I am trying.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:01 pm @Dizzy -

to answer your question - yes. if you are a villager in the f3 of an intense game and someone that you are unsure about posts a large wall of text closely analyzing the near-entirety of the game and of another person that you're unsure about, then i do expect you to have SOMETHING to say about it, yeah. is that naïve of me? is it unreasonable for me to expect a post that dives very deeply into my personal feelings about the game to have some type of impact into how you're perceiving the game as well?

I mean, I did have something to say about it though. But listen, first of all, it's huge, and it's all good and well that those are your feelings from your perspective that you have spent time mulling over. But that doesn't automatically mean that I also will have the same sort of investment in those exact thoughts or even be able to process these thoughts, since I'm me and I'm in a different situation, choosing between you and c4, and I also lack a lot of context. So what I need to do is to do my own research. That is more valuable to me than "I agree with this" or "I disagree with this", cause I don't even know cause I haven't read all of those posts anyway.

but even if it doesn't have an impact on you, the bigger problem was that i felt the post you made in the last page is a post that could largely be copy and pasted from 2 dayphases ago with very little changes, and it would have looked completely natural. most of the points were just kind of vague, and largely based on stuff that you've already said in the past dayphases. i do consider repetition and a lack of flexibility w/scumhunting to be a wolftell, especially in a f3 scenario where things need to Get Serious, so surely you can understand why that post from you raised my concerns, yeah?

I've been all over the fucking place the last phases, clearly. And if it's the same thoughts, it's because those are still mulling around in my head. I'll have new thoughts. I'm reading some posts for the first time now, quite a few actually.

And it doesn't really make sense that you would be so worried about me being so critical of you. If I was wolf, I'm pretty sure I could surf into a win with us voting c4. If I was a wolf, then I probably would be more invested in commenting and propping up your book about how c4 and not me is the wolf here. Don't you think? Or has this not struck you?

i relate to the "being apathetic to protect myself from disappointment" thing - that's the exact mindset that i've been in that i've been making a point to snap out of today, and i guess a part of me does feel urgent and frustrated that you two have not done the same yet

I mean, sure. But honestly, I wanted to be Nanook this game for real. I wasn't prepared for it, and now I'm in a (to me) really hard F3 and I hate having that kind of pressure. My life is such now that I have very little time and energy for mafia. That's just how it is. So I'm sorry if it's not up to standards, probably not up to my standards either, but this is as Dya kept saying a game with friends, so I'm trying not to stress myself out too much. I say, while literally constantly thinking about the game on my way to and from work etc etc.

also, the c4 thing is interesting because i've caught a lot of wolves in the past by observing dissonance between the way that they talk about their fate in the game vs their actions. c4's actions did not appear to reflect the mindset of: "i would like to die before the f3, please", and that was the cause of my concern

Alright. I guess. I haven't noticed the same, but I can see the argument.

Are we all here? @c4e5g3d5

I'm Euro, and full time work and all, so I'll be around probably 1-2 more hours. And I'll be around after work tomorrow as well.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:38 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:45 pm How sure are you in your conclusion?

If you're sure, what is the reason you haven't placed a vote yet?
I'm not saying you should, but I'm asking about it to hear your perspective on it.

if i had to vote right now, i would vote for c4. i am still worried about you being a wolf. i'm unable to give any percentages beyond that

i haven't voted yet because i consider it common courtesy to wait at ~least 24 hours before placing a vote in a f3 scenario, unless the wolf is 100% mechanically confirmed to me. i also haven't voted because neither you or c4 have had the opportunity to fully flesh out and present your thoughts yet, and that's what i'm waiting for

Alright. Thanks for answering.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:36 pmshould i be concerned about the fact that your post of misc thoughts has absolutely nothing to do with the large wall of text that i had just posted (and that you presumably read)?

I mean, I don't know what you want me to say about it that I haven't already. Do you expect the wall to be some sort of eye opener for me? You're discussing which one of me and c4 is the wolf. If you're town, I know who it is lol. What I'm concerned about is figuring you and c4 out. And I have to do that on my own. I don't think your big wall is AI for you. The summary of c4 interactions is cool, but I will also have to do my own reading of that, which I'm currently doing.

So what's the concern here or what do you want me to say about it?

how are you still regurgitating the same vague points you made from a dayphase or two ago (ie: "SPF had posts from when Vulgard was jailed that I disliked) without appearing to have any new thoughts about the literally 5K+ words that i wrote about this game?? i feel like you're just listing off a bunch of stuff from memory instead of coming up with new insight. most of these thoughts dont give me the impression that you're honestly putting a lot of thought or effort into coming to the correct answer here, and i'm being harsh right now because i need to see that genuine gamesolving effort from you for me to feel more comfortable

Because that was just a stream of consciousness some of the things going on in my head just there and then, without me doing any sort of due diligence. I hadn't put any other effort into it than just what had been buzzing in my head without any rereads or anything. Like, I haven't read all of your posts or all of c4's posts, so I'm well aware I'm missing content here. I'm doing that right now. I'm a slow reader. I'm probably a bit apathetic to protect myself from what feels like inevitable disappointment. And not to be shady, for real, but the sort of sharp/urgent energy you're coming at me with is probably similar to the energy I would have as a wolf in this scenario lolol.

All in all. I haven't made my mind up, for real. I know that's probably lame.
I feel like I should weigh Vul's ISO more than anything, cause that's how I caught the link to Dya, so in this game, it's the thing I feel is the most readable to me.
Reading c4's ISO and I have comments and questions. But tbh, it's not really scummy. But I doubt I'll find your ISO scummy too.

also i thought we went over the c4 self-sacrifice stuff yesterday - i was not shading c4 for not self-sacrificing, i was implying that c4 had mindset dissonance for implying that he wanted to die before the f3 but making a move that showed the opposite of that. the issue isn't him self-preserving, the issue is him making a big show about how he shouldn't be alive for the f3 only to willingly vote someone he thought was a villager solely for the sake of self-preservation

Ok, but I still don't know why it's interesting tbh. Town could also show this dissonance imo. Like "please kill me but also don't". But it's meh in any case.

we could go into the other points in this post (the dya stuff, for instance) but i honestly have already been over them so many times that i think you just need to carefully read my posts if you're actually a villager

Yeah, I will.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:44 pm If her posts today were all the material I could read her with, I'd just straight up call her a wolf. But they're not.

You've earlier been very sure she's town. And you've also been pretty vocal about not finding me town. That changed last day phase though. I'm wondering what's going on in your head right now, and if you think this is a hard decision? If it is, what's making it hard?

Also, does c4 kill Zack and then Nut?
Does SPF kill Zack and then argue that it should make Visor look good? Did SPF not kill Nut because Nut was super suss on SPF at the time, so it would reflect badly on her?

NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom.
NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom. NK analysis is just wifom.

All in all, I actually feel like c4 feels more uninformed than SPF does. I wonder if that makes any kind of sense. Excited to see if ISOing will actually help me here and hope it does. It's not something I like to do tbh, but it does sometimes help.

Jumbled thoughts be like

- My prediction is that the team c4 is on is going to lose.
- c4 is a much easier vote to make for me just from the amount of work SPF is putting in, and how c4 has been almost chopped several times now. So if SPF is scum, which wouldn't shock me at all at all, it would be "easy" to just go, ok, well played, and move on. It's a thing that is a factor here, even if it "shouldn't" be.
- SPF have more posts, but she also have many more posts that I very much dislike. There's a bunch of posts around when Vulgard was jailed that I remember really disliking at the time for how much they just seemed like empty (nervous?) phrases that basically ended up saying "Since I'm town, I don't know" (from memory, so don't @ me). She's also had questions that just strikes me as super weird, like "how is this even a problem or how is this not self explanatory"-weird. Like pushing c4 for not self sacrificing. (Ironically, if c4 is town, self sacrificing might've been the better play lolol). We all fucked up too many times now, and somehow, I still hold SPF to such a high standard that I have a hard time forgiving her for it, even though I totally did the same lol. Her insistence that her interaction with Dya should clear her is also something I don't buy. It does prove that SPF probably wasn't outright bussing Dya trying to get cred for it, but there's many more (and better!) ways to interact with a teammate. Why was it not just that? I'm not saying it was, it just doesn't prove that she's town to me. So those are some things at the top of my head that doesn't sit well with me. That said, I also remember KZA and Dya having posts that could point to TMI on SPF as town. It's not as hard as Nut, but it's still there I recalled last night. Her digging and playing the game hard is great. I don't really find it AI though. I know it wouldn't be for me, or slightly wolf indicative if I were to do organised posts in F3 lol.
- c4 does have fewer posts that I dislike. But he's pretty "meh", as Visor pointed out. I don't even have much to say. Reading SPFs interaction analysis, what I see is both good and bad things from c4. The particularly bad that I want to hear c4 talk about is his turnaround on Dya from D1 to D2. It be weird.
- Also like wtf is mafia still such a hard game. Shouldn't it be easy by now? Supposedly I'm a "good" player, but this is still just hard. Why do I have fog in my brain and what meditative practice should I apply to get rid of it?
- That fucking Vul post mentioning potentially the whole scum team in one post, what a troll.
- Visor was right about everything.

And I hope that there is a time that we're all on at the same time.

So what I'm going to do is this:
- ISO c4 myself. I haven't read all his posts.
- ISO SPF myself. I haven't read all her posts.
- ISO Vul looking at word usage. It worked for Dya, it may work here was well.

@staypositivefriend

this is a post i’d like dizzy to clarify a little bit - dizzy says that he didn’t get good feelings about dyachei during his exchange with them, but didn’t dizzy come out of their exchange agreeing with dyachei that alison was wolfy? if you agreed with dya’s read, then surely your impression of dya wasn’t entirely negative, right? what made you get bad vibes from dya at the time?

I think I felt sub par about both Alison and Dya at the time. At first, I didn't think they could be teamed, but later I considered that they maybe could (though didn't really believe it much). Also, a bit awkward, but I didn't really want to be too vocal about my suspicion on Dya cause I feel like they can react with getting angry about getting scum read, and I didn't really want to receive that. Others were also pushing Dya, so it wasn't like I needed to focus much attention there. The main reason I was suspicious of them was because I felt they didn't really want to interact with me and was much softer in their approach to me than I would expect if they really wanted to figure out my alignment. I felt they were kind of just avoiding me.

---

It's undeniably impressive that you're doing this work. Good on you.

How sure are you in your conclusion?

If you're sure, what is the reason you haven't placed a vote yet?
I'm not saying you should, but I'm asking about it to hear your perspective on it.

@c4e5g3d5 Can you talk a little bit more about how you square this situation right now?

Do you still think SPF is definitely town? Does her long walls make you think she's town?

I have thots. But after work probs

I wish c4 was here, but he isn't.

So I'm going to (attempt to) sleep. Will be around tomorrow.

I hate this, and I'm almost always wrong in F3s or get mischopped, so any town watching, do not get your hopes up.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:10 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:08 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:07 pmwhy do you wanna vote me?

Because I think it's most likely you. I could write more words, but it would be a mess

if you are on day 8 of a mafia game in a f3 and you cant write words about why you want to vote the main person that you FOS, then it means that your solving process has gone wrong somewhere. i'm town, and my sole focus right now is getting a solid, confident answer about who the final wolf is - i can only do that by re-reading the game, and i suggest that you do the same

Can you though? Can you only do it that way, and will you be able to do it that way if you aren't confident now? Why can't you do it just by interacting with me? Determine if I'm scum or town if you're still unsure?

I feel like you're want for being sure is kind of science fiction lol. I don't think I've ever been sure in a F3 situation.

I'll reread if I get the chance to. Right now I should be asleep, and I have work early tomorrow. Don't have anything after work though, so I'll have time then. I appreciate taking some time to consider, definitely.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:08 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:06 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:05 pm i will be re-reading the whole game. asking for 24 hours or so to put my thoughts together

Is it a very hard decision for you right now?

i have a lean, but the correct thing to do in this type of situation is to thoroughly re-read the players that i'm in the f3 with

Syn voting me last F3 before I got to post lol

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:07 pmwhy do you wanna vote me?

Because I think it's most likely you. I could write more words, but it would be a mess

@c4e5g3d5 Join the totally awesome party

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:05 pm i will be re-reading the whole game. asking for 24 hours or so to put my thoughts together

Is it a very hard decision for you right now?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:04 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:03 pm Can we not

Visor was right about everything

what was he right about?

That chopping him was bad and c4/you was lock

This question is also bad, and I'm probably going to vote you today. So if you're town, you should probably try to convince me not to

Does this mean I have to read the whole game now? Or should I wing it.

Can we not

Visor was right about everything

Bah.

Right or wrong, unite.

[VOTE: Visor ] aubergine

Or am I just being dumb, falling for AtE from Visor?

[VOTE: c4] aubergine

I guess.
So.. you decide. No pressure. Hope we get it. Sorry I'm not more helpful.

What if it actually is c4 and we just psyched ourselves out? Wowee

[VOTE: SPF] aubergine

lolol

I do think though, if not Visor, most likely SPF.

I'm sorry if you're town Visor.

If this goes to F3 - consider everyone, please. Thoroughly, if you can.

outed wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:57 pm It's amusing I'm going to die because of Nutella and dizzy panicking at EOD like I did

Guess I deserve it lmao

I wouldn't say I'm panicking

I'm feeling better about my vote now. Good night. Hope we win. If not, we get another exciting shot at it.

outed wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:53 pm Dizzy if you think it can be me, I'll be in f3 so we can discuss it then. Until that time, we kill C4. (Or SPF)

How do you know I'll be there though? I hope and pray I would be likely to get killed in that scenario.

outed wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:52 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:51 pm Dumb thing is, I have to sleep like now. I haven't slept at all almost all weekend. Getting up for work too soon.

I'm voting Visor. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Visor said it himself, it's ok to be wrong. But circling around, he just looks the worst right now. He has no clearing interactions from Dya/Vul.

Honestly this is really silly.

You are literally throwing the game pal.

No, I am not. I'm entitled to vote who I want without you calling it throwing.

outed wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:51 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:49 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm

outed wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:47 pm Dizzy cmon. We're going to kill C4 and then SPF. Every dead villager is pretty confident im a villager.

I know it's hard for you but the answer truly is simple.

oh wow this post is awful

It truly actually really is.

[VOTE: Visor ] aubergine

It is not, you're just having a knee jerk reaction to me trying to calm you down

Ok.

Dumb thing is, I have to sleep like now. I haven't slept at all almost all weekend. Getting up for work too soon.

I'm voting Visor. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Visor said it himself, it's ok to be wrong. But circling around, he just looks the worst right now. He has no clearing interactions from Dya/Vul.

outed wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:49 pm Me getting chopped is a surefire way for us to lose f3

(Though I guess now that you've expressed the possibility of going me you might actually get to f3 lmao)

What are you saying here?