Ancient Greece Mafia [CONQUEST]

[Sloonei]

That said, I have a thing I'm gonna do. Stand by.

[Jackofhearts2005]

What’s a trustfall?

[Kylemii]

I don't like playing catch up when I'm far behind. This has been the case for every game I've played in the last couple years. It's not an effective approach for me. I prefer instead to interact with players in real time and develop reads and get informed that way. It means I sometimes ask people to reiterate things that have already been said and miss a lot of discussion points. My hope is that the critical information will be brought to the surface if I just talk to people.

and I completely respect that but I also strongly feel like analyzing the legitimacy of Jack's involvement in the speedchuck lynch seems like an important avenue, that can only be pursued by looking backwards for a minute

Wanna do a trustfall, Kyle?

i was actually just thinking that

[Kylemii]

What’s a trustfall?

trust falls are where you go through a list of every living player and write down what the best reasons you have to see them as civ are, even if you don't see them as civ. the idea is that if someone is relatively harder to think of a reason for civvness, or the the reasons aren't particularly strong then those are the people you should look deeper into.

it forces a new perspective and sometimes brings different things to light and it's great and you should try it, TH

[Kylemii]

oh. I thought you were TH

[Kylemii]

[mention]Turnip Head[/mention] you should try it

[Quin]

You're right I've been playing lazy and we can step this up if you want

I don’t need you to tunnel faster. I need you to stop tunneling and go whatever speed you like in a more productive direction.

Or I need to just check your gth reads and ask why you have them.

Oh yeah I bet you'd looooove to point that GTH gun at my Turnip Head head

Not even if I was bad.



@Quin

Tell me about Dunya interactions with known scum.

I...I did.

[Sloonei]

I don't like playing catch up when I'm far behind. This has been the case for every game I've played in the last couple years. It's not an effective approach for me. I prefer instead to interact with players in real time and develop reads and get informed that way. It means I sometimes ask people to reiterate things that have already been said and miss a lot of discussion points. My hope is that the critical information will be brought to the surface if I just talk to people.

and I completely respect that but I also strongly feel like analyzing the legitimacy of Jack's involvement in the speedchuck lynch seems like an important avenue, that can only be pursued by looking backwards for a minute

WELL that's the thing I'm working on.

[Sloonei]

oh. I thought you were TH

Kyle's struggles with face blindness are really coming to light today.

[Quin]

I’m torn on Quin.

In some ways, I scum read him when he’s not bad like in Phenon, ASOUE (except we had btsc but otherwise, I would have)...I wanna say Mountains. I told him in CC123 I wasn’t sure I could trust him and then he was trustworthy til the end.

On the other hand, I don’t see any real hunting and I do see the disengagement I saw from him in Fire Emblem, where he was bad.

Oh no. It's way worse this time.

[Turnip Head]

Kyle doesnt even recognize me so how am I supposed to do trustfalls with him </3

[Turnip Head]

[mention]Kylemii[/mention] emii just to make sure he can see me

[Kylemii]

I don't like playing catch up when I'm far behind. This has been the case for every game I've played in the last couple years. It's not an effective approach for me. I prefer instead to interact with players in real time and develop reads and get informed that way. It means I sometimes ask people to reiterate things that have already been said and miss a lot of discussion points. My hope is that the critical information will be brought to the surface if I just talk to people.

and I completely respect that but I also strongly feel like analyzing the legitimacy of Jack's involvement in the speedchuck lynch seems like an important avenue, that can only be pursued by looking backwards for a minute

WELL that's the thing I'm working on.

dude, tag ur spoilers :/

[Sloonei]

Did Jack bus speedchuck? My gut response to this question has been "No" every time I've seen it posed, but people who are much more well-informed on the events of this game keep suggesting it so I want to grasp it for myself.

I assume part of the theory hinges on Speedchuck's role, which through the poll into darkness the following day. This mechanic is an obvious advantage for the Persians, but is it advantageous enough to bus a partner for? At the time I think people were starting to look at speedchuck, but my memory of the days leading up to his lynch are not clear enough to say so definitively. Perhaps I will look into that in more detail once I am done with this exercise, but for now I am going to focus primarily on the treatment of Speed by Jack and vice versa. My gut response, again, is that it's not a strong enough bonus for scum to warrant losing a teammate at that stage of the game, unless they thought speedchuck was slated to be lynched sooner rather than later.

Statistically speaking, we’re likely to catch a baddie by lynching Speedchuck.

Early game joke about speedchuck's prolific scum track record. This is just a joke and it can be dangerous to read too much into it. Or it can be dangerous not to read into it at all. It could be a sample of WIFOM to whet our appetites early in the game, or it's just a guy making a joke about another guy's history on this site.

@speedchuck why pick out a defined number of scum? That sounds like the opposite of what a GTH read list is supposed to be: spontaneous

Is it? I'm new to GTH. I thought the gun was only supposed to force you to say town or scum instead of null.

The whole premise of Gun to Head is that it is just that- assumptions you would make on people if you had a gun to your head. Not organized beforehand where you say “ok, I’m thinking I’ll maybe call him bad and him good and oh! Looks like I need to come up with a few more grease monkeys!”

Bad look

#disagree

Jack #disagrees when Scotty calls speed out for having a set number of baddies in his GTH list. For the record, I also aim to have my GTH reads reflect an accurate ratio all the time, so I would also be inclined to disagree with this particular point from Scotty.

@speedchuck why pick out a defined number of scum? That sounds like the opposite of what a GTH read list is supposed to be: spontaneous

Is it? I'm new to GTH. I thought the gun was only supposed to force you to say town or scum instead of null.

The whole premise of Gun to Head is that it is just that- assumptions you would make on people if you had a gun to your head. Not organized beforehand where you say “ok, I’m thinking I’ll maybe call him bad and him good and oh! Looks like I need to come up with a few more grease monkeys!”

Bad look

#disagree

#why

Cause Speedchuck has done GTH like once or twice and anyway, how is that AI?

Reason for the above post. Jack demonstrates a well-defined familiarity with Speedchuck's GTH history, which strikes me a little bit. Jack, if you're bothering to read this, what's the deal with this comment? How come you're familiar with Speedchuck's lack of familiarity with GTH reads?

I’ll tell you what Speedchuck’s real alignment is on Day 6.

Would've been pretty bad ass if he'd said Day 5 instead. This is another jokey post in relation to speedchuck. Jack made lots of jokes early though.

Speedchuck thinks me and TH are bad.

#obviouslies

Calls out chuck e. speed for scumreading Team IDGAF. If Jack bussed speedchuck, this is the first glimpse of it. We're on Day 2 here. In the context of all the posts I've looked at so far, this seems like a pretty organic observation and I think it's a good look for Jack. Day 2, of course, was the day we lynched Colin over me. With one teammate on the line, I'm not sure if it would make sense for Jack to abruptly pivot onto another teammate. Speedchuck's poll blackout ability would have less value early in a game, I think, but I can't say that's an issue I've given much thought to. @anyone care to speculate about that? More points in Jack's favor.

For reference, here is speedchuck's rainbow which prompted this read from Jack.

@dunya

Wanna lynch Speedchuck?

A little nudge to lynch the chuck. I suppose a counterpoint to the one I made above is that there was no real chance of lynching speedchuck at this stage on Day 2 (this is just a couple hours before the deadline), so "hey dunya wanna lynch speedchuck?" isn't really a serious push.

@Dom

Speedchuck, Wolbre, Sloonei.

Luna, I don’t know about. She’s new. What people suspect her for is one post from another player. Do I think that scared Colin distances from a teammate in this scenario? Probably. But I’ve also never played with Colin and only seen his town play in FE so that’s a fair amount to bet without good info. I think Colin avoiding the Sloonei and Sig wagons because Sloonei is a mate to be more convincing.

LC I’m pretty null on. I’m not even shook after I last mislynched him in...MK? I just am not paying much attention to him.

Wolbre especially looks bad if Sloonei is bad. He had the wafflyiest defense of Sloonei since Sloonei threw away his eggo shield.

Speed, I just just don’t buy his rainbow. There are three neutrals and a large town. Two players are messing around. So he thinks they’re both bad? No way, Jose. That rainbow list is made up.

Speedchuck seems to be his top scum read among several, including me. Hi. His reason has not changed, and it's a bit more fleshed out here. I like it well enough. If I enter the tunnel I can see it as an exaggerated stance to put distance between a teammate. Jack has insisted today (and probably elsewhere) that he does not bus partners "out of the blue", but I'm sure he puts distance between himself and teammates if he can. This could be that. I have no compelling reason to believe that it is right now.

@speedchuck

What does it mean when you say you are confident of the placement of a player in the middle of your rainbow?

I like this question. It takes a pretty nuanced observation about speedchuck's rainbow and then picks it apart. Again, tunnel-vision allows me to see this as an exaggerated press against a teammate from Jack. Regular-vision is giving kudos to Jack. Speedchuck's response seems like it would be relevant:

@speedchuck

What does it mean when you say you are confident of the placement of a player in the middle of your rainbow?

I guess it means... that I have a reason to place them there. I know mafia isn't math, but if it was, I'd say their positives and negatives cancel out, leaving me with zero. But 5-5 is a very different zero than someone who has 1-1 in 'pings.'

Does that make sense, or only to me?

I sense some nervousness in this post ("I guess..." "Does that make sense?"), which could mean chuck is really feeling the pressure from Jack, or he's shaky about putting the idea out there believably for everyone, or he's just faking it. I am still inclined to stay out of the tunnel on this one.

Then follows a serious of posts in which jack just responds to everything speedchuck says with some iteration of "you bad".

He finally starts to put meat on the bones of the case here in a post containing lots of names and reads. If they are teammates, this is where it goes from "distancing" to "bussing". Which raises a point that has been popping up for me as I'm reading these posts: Has anyone every seen a baddie treat a partner the way Jack has treated speedchuck prior to this post? Looking at Jack's speedchuck posts in isolation, it's just a big long string of taunts. It's not really bussing because he's not necessarily campaigning for a lynch. But it also doesn't look like distancing because he's just... harassing him, really. I bet if/when I look at speedchuck's posts he becomes increasingly frustrated with Jack at this stage.

At this point I am comfortable saying that Jack looks good in his posts regarding speedchuck and I will leave it there. I have found the point of origin for the theory about this being a bus job and i'll dig into that next. But first I want to take a quick look at speedchuck's posts too. You thought this post was over? Think again!

Speedchuck talkin' about Jack:

@Jackofhearts2005 is here, reading the forum.

I'm trying to remember why I townread him.

Light jab and easy shade on Day 2. Same argument as above. If I'm looking into the tunnel I can see this as exaggerated distance between teammates. But I don't usually keep that much tinfoil at my desk.

Spoiler: show

Jack and Turnip Head both seem to be playing extremely loose and I'm not sure what to make of that.

Noted.

Love this whole interaction right here.

I am dissatisfied with Jack and TH.

The origin of Speedchuck's pursuit of Team IDGAF. Turnip Head and Jack both played a game that left them open to being pursued as low-hanging fruit by opportunistic baddies, and I can see that being the case here. It's worth noting that speedchuck is not specifically targeting Jack here, but TH and Jack as a tandem. Whether we interpret that as the nervous habit of baddies wanting to lump a teammate into a group of suspects, or as speedchuck pursuing a pair of easy targets is up to us individually, I suppose. Gun to my head I'm going with the latter, though I could see room for the former.

The rainbow again, for chronological reference.

Speedchuck thinks me and TH are bad.

#obviouslies

I cannot read you. Therefore you are bad. I have employed this in town games before. Would you like references?

speedchuck's response to Jack's initial pressure. In hindsight this kind of reads like a scum slip. "I've done this in town games" almost sounds like "This isn't a town game, but I've done it before as town." If we're reading it in that light, then this response seems kind of shaky, which would be a huge point in Jack's favor.

Whatever. You all bad anyway.

Hey remember earlier when I said I would bet that we can see speedchuck becoming frustrated with Jack as his harassment progressed?

Speedchuck so bad, Michael Jackson gave him the rights to that song.

Speedchuck so evil, Thanos thinks his plans are a bit much.

Speedchuck so corrupt, Republicans are going to nominate him to run for president in 2024.

I'm honored by... well, two of these comparisons. Infinity War was great.

Who comprises Team DGAF and how would you rank them in terms of suspicion?

JoH and Turnip Head. TH I suspect more, because Jack has done things at some point that GAF.

I think my biggest problem right now is that Mac stopped talking, half the game stopped playing, and the biggest wagon right now is on a low poster. AND that wagon consists of the two "most suspected people" of the last 48 hours and team IDGAF.

I'm not comfortable with any of this, and it's making me not want to lynch Choutas.

Turnip Head is ahead of Jack on his list of suspects. Noted.

Who comprises Team DGAF and how would you rank them in terms of suspicion?

JoH and Turnip Head. TH I suspect more, because Jack has done things at some point that GAF.

Oh, and Quin. And maybe some others? It's growing now that Mac is dead.

He tacks on Quin as an appendage. Good look for Quin, IMO. This would be an unnecessary connection to make with a teammate, and is easier to read as an attempt at throwing shade on another easy target.

Jack has been playing both the IDGAF crowd and the hunting crowd, and hasn't really been doing either. It's disconcerting. I feel like his scumreads are consistent (I would, especially), but he's not actually chasing them. Jack hasn't been playing lax enough to feel unaligned, but he doesn't seem to care to hunt either. He's just whatever people expect him to be in the moment. Or that's how I read him.

Snipped from a longer post. Jack would convert to the serious hunting side after this post. If they're teammates, this post is speedchuck telling his partner Jack to put the pedal to the metal. Does that happen? I don't think so, at least not in the thread. That's what BTSC is for.


I've found no compelling evidence to think that Jack bussed speedchuck. This looks like a townie who found a serious issue to object to early in the game and carved a strong case out of it as things progressed. I should look into the counter-argument as well, but my own independent research is strongly pro-Jack and, by coincidence, a little pro-Quin too. I don't support a Jack lynch at this time, but I haven't seen the argument for why he should be considered bad.

[Sloonei]

I did all of that just to wind up exactly where I started. something

[Sloonei]

I don't like playing catch up when I'm far behind. This has been the case for every game I've played in the last couple years. It's not an effective approach for me. I prefer instead to interact with players in real time and develop reads and get informed that way. It means I sometimes ask people to reiterate things that have already been said and miss a lot of discussion points. My hope is that the critical information will be brought to the surface if I just talk to people.

and I completely respect that but I also strongly feel like analyzing the legitimacy of Jack's involvement in the speedchuck lynch seems like an important avenue, that can only be pursued by looking backwards for a minute

WELL that's the thing I'm working on.

dude, tag ur spoilers :/

maybe i should have.

[Sloonei]

Scotty talkin' 'bout Jack
I didn't find as much as I expected to, so I may be missing something here. But the crux of it seems to be that Jack's pursuit of speedchuck went into high gear on Day 5 after lying dormant for Days 1-4. I read that more as Jack just becoming more serious, rather than suddenly focusing on speedchuck more. From a lengthy ISO of Jack posts:

————————————————-
Jack systematically threw speed’s name into the air every. Single. Phase.
On Day 5, he ramped it up and really bombarded the speed speakerphone. He’s really been gunning for speed since day 1. What changed in day 5 that he really hit it home?

There’s no way jack had a role check on day 1, which could have been a worthwhile explanation of his constant and often jilted stand-alone seedlings of speed guilt (speedlings, if you will)

How about that for a new case, based on dunya’s theory that a role such as speed’s would be great to bus gradually?

okay so I guess dunya is more responsible for the theory than Scotty. WHATEVER. But Scotty is laying some groundwork for it. I don't have the same interpretation as he does.

[Turnip Head]

Now that I see your perspective [mention]Sloonei[/mention] onei, maybe you did have to be there to envision the bussing. Like it was something that I felt like I saw happen in real time as we shufted into Day 5. Scotty saw the same thing I did and it seems like [mention]Kylemii[/mention] emii saw it too. I hope he chimes in here actually cuz maybe he can explain it better.

[Sloonei]

Now that I see your perspective Sloonei onei, maybe you did have to be there to envision the bussing. Like it was something that I felt like I saw happen in real time as we shufted into Day 5. Scotty saw the same thing I did and it seems like Kylemii emii saw it too. I hope he chimes in here actually cuz maybe he can explain it better.

Maybe. I absolutely do not see it in my retrospective examination and I'm a bit tired now. If [mention]dunya[/mention] wants to fill me in as well I'd appreciate that.

[Sloonei]

I am seeing little to no talk about spacedaisy and wolbre. Where do we all stand on them?

[Quin]

I am seeing little to no talk about spacedaisy and wolbre. Where do we all stand on them?

His vote for me is not my favourite. I'm supposed to be his smallest scum read and he planted that vote early on in the day and hasn't been back.

[Turnip Head]

Maybe nova like... poisoned himself or something

#bottomofthebarrelideasfor400alex

[Turnip Head]

[mention]novaselinenever[/mention] hello hello

[Marmot]

I did all of that just to wind up exactly where I started. something

You helped me take off my tinfoil hat.

also, I am literally playing mafia in a sleeping bag under the stars (no tent), that's a new one for me.

[Scotty]

I did all of that just to wind up exactly where I started. something

You helped me take off my tinfoil hat.

also, I am literally playing mafia in a sleeping bag under the stars (no tent), that's a new one for me.

You’re evolving into your final form. Soon enough, you’ll lose your long arms and’ll live in rock crevices

[Turnip Head]

[Turnip Head]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I’ll be at a conference today. If I am unable to end the day on time I might temporarily lock the thread.

[Turnip Head]

I’ll be at a conference today. If I am unable to end the day on time I might temporarily lock the thread.

[Turnip Head]

I’ll be at a conference today. If I am unable to end the day on time I might temporarily lock the thread.

[Sloonei]

Looking at wolbre & speedchuck

From D1 (Updated)

Dunya: 2- Long Con, Epignosis
Epignosis: 4 - Scotty, Jack of Hearts, Speedchuck, Wolbre04
Golden: 2 - Lunalee, Croutons
Lunalee: 2 - Kylemii, ColinisCool
Marmot: 1 - Space Daisy
Novaselinenever: 4 - MacDougal, Sloonei, Sig, Turnip
Sig:: 5 - Nova, MP, Marmot, Dom, Golden
Turniphead: 1 - Dunya

There's 2-3 scum in: Scotty, Jack, Speed, Nova, MP, Marmot, Dom, and Golden
Further narrowed down to: Scotty, Golden, Marmot, Nova, Speed

Here's a Pretty List:
Jack
MP
Dom
Speed
Golden
Scotty
Marmot
Nova

Just what I'm thinking

Speedchuck seems to be a lower-tier town read on a limited-scope rainbow list, I think. [mention]wolbre04[/mention] can clarify this point. I am not sure why he is placed here.

Spoiler: show

I would love a bit of an explanation here.

MP and LC have a heated argument, spilling over from my interaction with LC. It lasts for a half hour and then both suddenly drop the hostilities and keep their votes on each other. Neither will get lynched today

I love your brain.

Agreed. This is beautiful.

Also, MP said he was moving his vote to Jack, but didn't.

A neat segue.

I have Jack, Kyle, Spacedaisy and Speedchuck as null. Spacedaisy gets a birthday pass (not for much longer). Very strange for that remaining trio wouldn't you say? I can't point at anything but my overall feeling towards them all is that they are:

a) Not their usual selves
b) Flying under le radar
c) Very nice boys

@Dom @Marmot @wolbre04 would also like your thoughts. And anyone else obviously.

A -It's really hard for me to comment on a because I'm new here so I will defer to others on that.
B - I def think they are flying under the radar (daisy is a bit of an exception, but still) and Kyle had a period where he was getting pressed. Not so much the other two for a bit, it seems
C - They haven't been inflammatory yet

No thoughts on Kyle
I could maaaaybe see jack fitting into a scumteam comp but it's a stretch for me. He hasn't been here in awhile and I can't decide whether that's laying low or just having a life
Speedchuck seemed to be actively trying to solve the game earlier so I don't have any issues with him
As you said, I'm not going to pester daisy
1. I don't know her so she doesn't want some random dude pinging her
2. I don't wanna be an ass and bother her when she's trying to enjoy her bday time

Has a chance to offer thoughts on a number of players, and the only one he paints in a favorable light is speedchuck. Also a waffley suspicion of Jack, it seems. I have obviously never played with wolbre so it's difficult to make any read with too much confidence, but this post has caught my attention, at the very least.

He’s probably bad with Speed, Luna, Probably not Sloonei, Wolfbae, and Sopapilla.

I'm not sure I understand what's going on here. This was Jack's original post:

He’s probably bad with Speed, Luna, Sloonei, Wolfbae, and Sopapilla.

The "He" they're referring to seems to be Scotty. wolbre reconstructed the post specifically to point suspicion against speedchuck and lunalee, I think. This would be an abrupt and unexplained departure from his previous stance on chuck. If I'm remembering correctly, wolbre will go back to town reading speedchuck soon. So... I really do not know what's happening here. wolbre, do you have any memory of making this post and can you tell me what your thoughts were at the time?

Rainbow list

Wolbre04 - The king and is also not indie ffs

Speed chuck
Scotty
Cbob
Jack
Kyle
Marmot
Quin
golden
Sloonei
MP
Coitus
TH
Nova
Dunya
Spacedaisy

A night 4 rainbow list. Speedchuck is his top town read. Spacedaisy is his top scum read. Townies can be wrong and we obviously still do not know daisy's alignment. If wolbre is scum with speedchuck, he went hard in chuck's defense. This is wolbre's first game here and one of his first handful of games overall, I think. Would a player in his position defend a teammate so consistently in the thread? Genuine question, I don't have an answer. Daisy's placement at the bottom stands out to me as well. She's been the quietest player in the game. Why is she there, wolbre?

Okay gimmie gth reads on:

Speedchuck
Speedchuck
Speedchuck
Speedchuck

And why is he bad?

I have him as a town read. I say pass

More of the same. I still don't see any justification for this town read.

I have speed as a town read, if I don't lynch him that makes me look bad

Oh what the hell
[VOTE: Speedchuck] aubergine

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Speedchuck has not been lynched at this point. His alignment is unknown. Why is wolbre declaring that he will "look bad" for defending him? The vote is pure resignation as well. This looks like the sort of thing that is too obvious to really be bad, but at this stage of the game it would be irresponsible to let it slip by. Daisy called him out on it immediately:

I have speed as a town read, if I don't lynch him that makes me look bad

civs don't worry about looking bad, they worry about finding baddies. U Bad wolbre?

Yes

My point was that bc he was a town read for me, if I vote him it looks like bussing but idc at this point

This is not quite what wolbre said initially. Before it was "I look bad if I don't lynch him." Now it's "I look bad if I do lynch him." I am once again left saying that this is too obvious to really be bad. Could be an inexperienced scum trying to get out ahead of suspicion. Or it could be a townie in unfamiliar territory who's conscious of his appearance. I don't know. Reading new players is always difficult because they almost every game is going to present them with something they haven't seen before regardless of their alignment, so their behavior is difficult to predict. It is tempting to call wolbre bad here, but I am also wary that he is just an easily misunderstood player at this stage.

I have speed as a town read, if I don't lynch him that makes me look bad

civs don't worry about looking bad, they worry about finding baddies. U Bad wolbre?

Yes

My point was that bc he was a town read for me, if I vote him it looks like bussing but idc at this point

If you're civ, vote for who you suspect, consequences be damned. Civ's suspicions develop and change naturally. Is he a town read for you now or not? Are you voting him because you suspect him or just because someone is trying to tell you to? Also who is the he we are talking about? I've lost track...

I'm voting him because other people want us to so I'm doing it to help who I perceive as potential town leaders I suppose
He's still a town read
He is "SC"

I feel a bit better about this response. He's voting speedchuck to be a team player, deferring to other people with confident reads. I've got no issue with that strategy sometimes. And in this instance it worked out, if he's telling the truth.

speedchuck, ok. Why do you read him as town? I'm still ISOing, I haven't decided yet.

I think several of the points people are pinning him for seem pretty floppy

I don't know what this means. Wolbre, what does this mean?

yea I don't think the 2 remaining scum would have needed to defend speed yesterday. on the other hand, wolbre did it...

dunya makes this point in the aftermath of speedchuck's lynch. It's worth considering. wolbre's defense of speedchuck was not limited to Day 5 and had been consistent throughout the game with maybe the exception of that one odd post I highlighted earlier. My question today is, still, whether or not I think wolbre (a relatively new player in a totally new environment) would opt to defend a teammate so strongly as scum in his first game here. I don't know anything about wolbre's experience or whether or not that would be likely. [mention]wolbre04[/mention] can you refresh us on your mafia history so far? How many games have you played as each alignment? If you've got links to past games others might find that helpful as well.

And last but not least, here's wolbre's GTH reads for reference:

kyle - TOWN
dunya - TOWN
Nova - SCUM
spacedaisy - TOWN
Turnip Head - TOWN
Jack - SCUM
cbob - TOWN
Quin - SCUM
Sloonei - TOWN
Marmot - TOWN

Daisy is a town-read now, whereas she was scum earlier. He seems to suspect Jack based on his interactions with Scotty and dunya, I think. And he concluded that Quin was bad after I highlighted some interactions between Quin and speedchuck, but I still am not clear on exactly why he felt that way.

I've come out of this with more questions than answers. I'd lean slightly bad, I suppose, but with caution. wolbre is a new player, and questionable behavior is not necessarily bad behavior. I also understand that this ISO is kind of sprawling and all over the map, and I don't know if people, wolbre especially, bother to read everything I say in full. But if wolbre can address any of the uncertainties about him that'd be handy. I'm looking for an explanation of thought processes and reasoning here.

To make it easier, these are my most pressing questions for you, wolbre:
What specifically made you town read speedchuck this game?
What specifically made you scum read Spacedaisy earlier, and what has changed since then?
How many games have you played before as town? As mafia?

Also, as always, updated reads and such would be handy if you've got them. please and thank you.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[mention]Sloonei[/mention]

Everyone sees Daisy as town based on GTH.

Wolbre is about 50/50.

In regards to Speed’s gth history, I remember his first game on the site (Phenon) well because we talked a lot about our home sites and mechanics. I have played probably 75% of the games here since then and have played GTH like 3 times. So I assume his number is pretty similar.

I appreciate you weighing in on Quin and would particularly like your full thoughts on Quin, Dunya and Wolbre. That’s where I’m looking to lynch from today.

Linki: I’ll read those linkis in a min

[Jackofhearts2005]

Rockin. I like it. Reinforcing my Sloonei townread. I’ll rarely 100% townread Sloonei until I see him as bad in a way I would have caught because he pulled the wool over my eyes in Champs but I’d call him a 97% town read, along the lines of where I have Daisy and MP, slightly higher than TH and Bob (before he died).

[Sloonei]

daisy & speedchuck

I have speed as a town read, if I don't lynch him that makes me look bad

civs don't worry about looking bad, they worry about finding baddies. U Bad wolbre?

This is daisy's first mention, direct or indirect, of speedchuck. She's been the game's quietest player so I don't think it's exceptionally suspicious that she hadn't mentioned him at all until Day 5. But it's not a town tell either, so let's keep looking.

I don't have thoughts on speedchuck yet.

I appreciate this update, sister daisy.

I'm going to pick 7 scum out of our playerlist. Gun to head. One for each scum and one for the 3P potential scums. That's an arbitrary number, I know.

Choutas - SCUM
ColinIsCool - SCUM
Dom - TOWN
dunya - TOWN
Epignosis - SCUM
Golden - TOWN
Jackofhearts2005 - TOWN
Kites - TOWN
Kylemii - SCUM
lapluie - SCUM
Long Con - TOWN
Lunalee - TOWN
M Plus 7 - TOWN
MacDougall - TOWN
Marmot - SCUM
novaselinenever - TOWN
Scotty - TOWN
sig - TOWN
Sloonei - TOWN
Spacedaisy - SCUM
speedchuck - TOWN
Turnip Head - SCUM
wolbre04 - TOWN

This is hard when we have so many low posters and so many high posters and not so many in-betweens.

I don't like this. Continuing ISO...

Daisy dislikes speedchuck's early GTH reads for the same reason as Scotty. I still don't agree with it, but again do not fault players for looking at it. It should be noted, though, that at this point the pressure against speedchuck was mounting and, as dunya pointed out, speedchuck would have been a decent bus candidate due both to said pressure and his role mechanic. Which is to say that Daisy's pressure on chuck here needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

What I do like is her pressure of wolbre, which I just talked about some in my wolbre ISO above this one. Fleshing out daisy's role more, she's being inquisitive and holding wolbre's feet to the fire, asking a lot of the same questions I just posed in my ISO. Not surprising, daisy and I seem to do that a lot in games. Examples:

I have speed as a town read, if I don't lynch him that makes me look bad

civs don't worry about looking bad, they worry about finding baddies. U Bad wolbre?

Yes

My point was that bc he was a town read for me, if I vote him it looks like bussing but idc at this point

If you're civ, vote for who you suspect, consequences be damned. Civ's suspicions develop and change naturally. Is he a town read for you now or not? Are you voting him because you suspect him or just because someone is trying to tell you to? Also who is the he we are talking about? I've lost track...

speedchuck, ok. Why do you read him as town? I'm still ISOing, I haven't decided yet.

I think several of the points people are pinning him for seem pretty floppy

I'm fresh to this stuff, which people and what points seem floppy? And what exactly does floppy mean? Like flimsy, don't stand up or hold weight? Or like, flip flopping, they've changed?

I take these points to be stronger in her favor than her treatment of speedchuck, given the context.

Didn't that literally just happen with me.... ?

yeah and i guess it was cool and everything but like.... it seems like a lot of the time now people get lynched now after just like not being around

i miss the whole "hey don't lynch me, heres some reasons why i'm good and also heeres some reasons to lynch this other guy instead" thing, i miss the 90's

how am i supposed to know who's reacting to dying properly without them showing up to reactt

@novaselinenever @speedchuck @Jackofhearts2005

what're u doing

I already defended myself and I'll keep doing it. I don't know why Marmot is voting me up, but Daisy is doing a big OMGUS and playing the victim card. She isn't a low-hanging fruit and she's making my whole accusation against her about meta and since I only played 1 game with her beforehand, I can't possibly think she's bad, so I must be bad.

I am not playing any victim card. And my point was that everything you have said about how this game is like Fiddler is false. I mean blatantly false.


Current possible baddie vibes, in order from most to least:

Speedchuck
Nova
Marmot

civs: Jack, MP, dunya, Scotty

Suspect Kyle may be 3P, not sure what to think there though.

Can't decide if I feel wolbre for 3P or bad. Don't think civ though.

Lists speedchuck as scum along with nova and marmot. Nova is not an option today, so I'd be interested to hear about Marmot. I may look into him next, but I also owe kyle a look still and I suddenly realize I need to leave for work in an hour and a half. fuck work man. I should call in sick, I caught the mafia bug. uh anyway

I think I will move my vote to Speedchuck .

[VOTE: speedchuck] aubergine

Linki @Kylemii : And what Speed just said is why I am concerned about the fact that so many seem to think wolbre is 3P due to his very weird statements.

@Sloonei What's the best type of cheese?

Here's her vote for speedchuck. I'm not sure what the linki @ kyle is about, so let's have a look:

Nova is town.

Jack is trying to prove a point. He might actually think I'm bad if he's 3P. He's wrong, and he doesn't care. He never cared before I prodded back at him.

Way I see it, if Jack is 3P, he cannot lose with my lynch. When I flip town, he'll send out his last offer and join scum. If I flipped scum, he'd join town with that extra cred. Tell me his MO doesn't look like this.

I'm still not sure. @spacedaisy, care to rehash/update your thoughts on wolbre for us? please and thanks.

Daisy was kind of late to the party and it's difficult to judge her speedchuck content in this light, so let's continue onto her post-speedchuck content:

Oh, also I think I woudl move Kyle into the Town column, or at least the town leaning 3P column. I don't see any reason to suspect him. I like that he pointed me at Speedchuck to begin with.

Solid observation about kyle, I like the thought process reflected here. Townie point for daisy.

The only other notable thing she's done since then is go after Turnip Head a little bit. This is where that left off:

Answer the question please. What have you contributed to town?

My ISO of TH isn't current, but check it out. I felt the same way at one point but after reading all his posts (it was pretty fun actually), he's had some hard stances and opinions and isn't as disconnected as it seems at first glance. Here's a link to my thoughts.

Interesting dunya, will have to add TH to the "Should ISO" list. I am trying not to get too caught up in technical analysis though, giving the gut playing a thorough try this go round!

The only negative thing I had to say in this whole exercise was that Daisy arrived on the scene after the pressure against speedchuck was rising, and that's not necessarily even a critical point against her. My focus has been intentionally limited in this ISO (time is scarce), but I feel pretty good about daisy. Nothing here makes me want to vote for her today.

linki: Hey I also GTH daisy town now.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Sorry folks I ended up making last minute plans after working today and only just remembered this is ending soon.

I don't love any of these trains but I admit I was mostly poking Jack to see how he'd react. I feel his reactions were fairly townie.

[VOTE: speedchuck] aubergine

Here’s where I left off on the “Yesterday Review” excercise. I’m going to keep calling it that for searchabililty.

At this point, Bob is putting on the midway vote or one past it iirc.

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei

Everyone sees Daisy as town based on GTH.

Wolbre is about 50/50.

In regards to Speed’s gth history, I remember his first game on the site (Phenon) well because we talked a lot about our home sites and mechanics. I have played probably 75% of the games here since then and have played GTH like 3 times. So I assume his number is pretty similar.

I appreciate you weighing in on Quin and would particularly like your full thoughts on Quin, Dunya and Wolbre. That’s where I’m looking to lynch from today.

Linki: I’ll read those linkis in a min

There's no way I can produce a comprehensive read on dunya today, but I can weigh in on any specific points you have about her. I just did wolbre as you've seen, and my Quin read was enhanced by the speedchuck ISO I did last night.

I plan on looking at kyle next and then I'll see how much time I have left after that. What are your thoughts on him and marmot?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Yesterday Review

Kyle is full of these nothing posts this game. Reinforcing the “I haven’t taken a side yet, don’t kill me” 3P/pretending to be 3P vibes.

hnnnng it's quiet

oh my god

[Jackofhearts2005]

@Sloonei

Everyone sees Daisy as town based on GTH.

Wolbre is about 50/50.

In regards to Speed’s gth history, I remember his first game on the site (Phenon) well because we talked a lot about our home sites and mechanics. I have played probably 75% of the games here since then and have played GTH like 3 times. So I assume his number is pretty similar.

I appreciate you weighing in on Quin and would particularly like your full thoughts on Quin, Dunya and Wolbre. That’s where I’m looking to lynch from today.

Linki: I’ll read those linkis in a min

There's no way I can produce a comprehensive read on dunya today, but I can weigh in on any specific points you have about her. I just did wolbre as you've seen, and my Quin read was enhanced by the speedchuck ISO I did last night.

I plan on looking at kyle next and then I'll see how much time I have left after that. What are your thoughts on him and marmot?

Kyle has been phoning the game in hard. Not going after anyone and lots of fluff.

I think he’s 3P and trying to tell the mafia not to shoot him. Slight chance he’s bad pretending to do the above. I’d rate his chances of actually being to at less than 10% but I also buy him as the last 3P player.

I don’t have any strong opinions about Marmot. He’s putting forth effort but not necessarily useful effort. I can’t imagine lynching him over Quin at this point unless I found a reason to townread Quin. I also just don’t suspect him as much as Dunya or Wolbre. I think the worst thing he has going for him is that when I started going at it with Speed and Scotty the day Speed got lynched, Marmot was around and basically didn’t react to my posts. He later claimed to have not seen my case/recognized it as a case.

[Kylemii]

I remember excusing wolbres "I should probably vote for speedchuck" post and assuming it was cus he was an independent, rather than mafia

in retrospect it's a little unusual for any player to be so cognizant of their past actions at all

[Sloonei]

Who comprises Team DGAF and how would you rank them in terms of suspicion?

JoH and Turnip Head. TH I suspect more, because Jack has done things at some point that GAF.

Oh, and Quin. And maybe some others? It's growing now that Mac is dead.

This post is my reason for town-reading Quin a little bit. It's not the most convincing thing in the world and I could still change my mind, but I don't think speedchuck goes out of his way to tack shade onto a teammate like this.

[Kylemii]

Yesterday Review

Kyle is full of these nothing posts this game. Reinforcing the “I haven’t taken a side yet, don’t kill me” 3P/pretending to be 3P vibes.

hnnnng it's quiet

oh my god

"nothing posts" what are you talking about. of course those posts look like "nothing" posts cus you've pulled them out of context you nerd, they were posted in real time in response to current happenings.

Kyle has been phoning the game in hard. Not going after anyone and lots of fluff.

this is gross. I've done work, maybe in unconventional ways. I'm playing the way I want to so I can make mafia fun rather than tiresome and that sometimes manifests in bullshit posts about vampires or whatever but that doesn't devalue my presence here.

i think he’s 3P and trying to tell the mafia not to shoot him. Slight chance he’s bad pretending to do the above. I’d rate his chances of actually being to at less than 10% but I also buy him as the last 3P player.

I don't understand your fixation on 3P, but even more than that i don't understand your interpretation of how the third party boys in this game even work... There are no actual neutrals in this game. The 3rd party roles have to choose a side, so being alive isn't their priority, it's supporting the victory of their chosen side.

your theory about me only makes sense if I'm 3p and also chose to side with the mafia for some reason, otherwise I'd be playing against my win condition in all circumstances

[Sloonei]

I just lost my entire Kyle ISO. I don't know how it happened but I don't have time to put it all back together. The conclusion was going to be that I'm comfortable leaving my vote on him. I'll post a few main points so there's something to talk about, but I need to leave shortly.

[Sloonei]

I just lost my entire Kyle ISO. I don't know how it happened but I don't have time to put it all back together. The conclusion was going to be that I'm comfortable leaving my vote on him. I'll post a few main points so there's something to talk about, but I need to leave shortly.

Scratch that, I recovered it. STAND BY!

[Kylemii]

:\

[Jackofhearts2005]

Hey hey the last 3P picked a side. When did that happen.

[mention]Kylemii[/mention]

You are right about your fan fiction. Gimmie some up to date reads.

[Turnip Head]

Hey hey the last 3P picked a side. When did that happen.

[Sloonei]

Town reads:
Speedchuck
Choutas
Dom
Kylemii
Kites
Scotty
sig
Sloonei
M Plus 7

Remainders:
ColinIsCool
dunya - Dunya's questioning is all over the place, but I remember it being that way in MK and in Vocaroo. She actually ended up getting lynched for it in MK, even though she pointed out the scumteam. I can't clear Dunya on a meta read, though, because I've never played with scum dunya.
Epignosis
Golden - Has done some really towny things. I didn't even mind his meta defense, but for a couple of posts that pinged me. Those that Mac didn't point out, I already did.
Jackofhearts2005
lapluie
Long Con
Lunalee
MacDougall - Wanna see how he approaches non-golden players before assigning a townread
Marmot
novaselinenever
Spacedaisy
Turnip Head
wolbre04

Feel free to call me on any of these reads. Busy day, can't do them all, so this list is for you to pick and choose.
I'll narrow down and pick out scumreads from my remainders by tomorrow.

why was i a townread for you at the time of this post

Kyle kicks things off with speedchuck by picking himself out of a reads list. Not a bad question, but not the kind of thing that is difficult to fake either.

which might be a cause for a false negative (positive?) on the supertown dunya barometer

I don't understand this part of your post. Please explain.

mmmm okay well imagine you're jogging with Lance Armstrong or some other famous runner who is famous for running really good, but you know Lance Armstrong broke both his knees in a running accident 6 months ago, so he's been sorta like, off of running for a while I guess. cus of his broken knees and the related stress

You'd wanna ask "hey Lance, how're your knees my dude, do you still enjoy track and field sports", especially in the very specific circumstance where you're cooperating/competing with Lance Armstrong in some sort of competition game where judging his running skill and speed is a factor.

So this showed up when I ctrl+f'd "Speed" and it's not about speedchuck but I just wanted to point out that Lance Armstrong is a cyclist, not a runner. Scum read on Kyle.

Lots to dig into though. I was addressed several times while I was gone, and I'll talk about the one I remember.

I think Luna is town. She is playing as I would expect her to on D1 in her first online mafia game.
(But speed, this is not her first online mafia game!)
You think burglaries and freaking Image Mafia count? Not that Luna played much differently in the burglaries. She was town then as well. We have put up more content in one day than Luna has parsed in her entire syndicate run, and I think her posts work with her latching onto elements that she can follow and giving what opinions she has.
I don't discourage pursuing a scumread on her and asking her questions. It might help her to engage with the thread, since she is a "true freshman" and not a "transfer" like Nova, Wolbre, etc. Just keep the filter in mind. And through my filter, I see her as town.

is lunalee relatively new? not from RYM or one of those sites?

Kyle is unfamiliar with luna's history. This tells me nothing about his relationship with speedchuck in this game.

Information (hi Epi).

speedchuck no

Still nothing.

I think Sloonei is town.

What's your opinion on MP?

Of all the highest posters (Macdougall, Golden, MP... and Kylemii) I suspect him the most. But not enough to lead an entourage against him.

Im not even close to being a highest posters, I'm at like 105 Golden's at 300

A joke that goes over kyle's head, which is impressive, given, you know, how high he was. Still tells me nothing about these two together.

Spoiler: show

Thanks, care to answer my other question now?

I completely missed your other question.

Have a rainbow of my mindset.

speedchuck
MacDougall
Golden
dunya
novaselinenever
Long Con
Scotty
Kylemii
Lunalee
wolbre04
Sloonei
Dom
Marmot
M Plus 7
Choutas
Kites / Quin
lapluie / colonialbob
Spacedaisy
Jackofhearts2005
Turnip Head
ColinIsCool

It's mutidimensional, too. I bolded people if I felt confident about their placement. This is based on a skim, and I feel like a third of the game isn't taking things seriously. Which is fun and all, but I can't do it, nor can I read it.

why are marmot and dom in their own unique flavors compared to everyone else

Asks a question about speedchuck's rainbow, but then doesn't follow up on it. This is the second time something like this has happened, and the rest is just harmless poking and jokes. Bad look for Kyle. Speedchuck responded to him here, but Kyle did nothing with the answer that I can see. There is an exchange with dunya about colin's meta shortly after this. I forget the details of my kyle/colin ISO because it was like seven years ago. I should revisit that. But the same things that I said about Daisy RE: speedchuck earlier can apply to Kyle RE: colin here. He was on his way out and pressure on him is to be taken with a grain of salt. I could see this as a teammate interaction, but that's an aside.
I just responded to Jack in real time, I've lost my place. Ah!

Kylemii Why should I read you as town? I'm sittin here trying to come up with a good reason.

i don't think this is really a good question. my intention is not to curate my actions to seem town to you or anyone else, my intention is to have fun and make good choices that turn things towards victory. so like... i really don't know what you should be looking at as evidence of my town-ness.

in general i don't like being sharply read as town. being townread easily means also being scumread easily in scum games and also dying early in civ games and it results in just.... a lot of extra work that isn't necessary at all.

sorry I got off on a tangent, I guess my answer is "don't"?

This interaction is not particularly strong from either side. I could easily see it as soft distancing.

@speedchuck why do you think you should be town read

Kyle turns it back around on chuck. Okay. Speedchuck's response is essentially nothing.

@speedchuck why do you think you should be town read

Because I ask original questions.

Look at that post. It sure does exist.

@speedchuck why do you think you should be town read

Because I ask original questions.

rekt. :[

who are u gonna vote for today

Hey, this post also exists. Speedchuck answered with some salad:

@speedchuck why do you think you should be town read

Because I ask original questions.

rekt. :[

who are u gonna vote for today

Not thrilled with the current votes. If you had asked me 6 hours ago, I'd have voted Dunya over Nova. Now I want to see what she puts out.

M Plus 7
Choutas
Kites / Quin
lapluie / colonialbob
Spacedaisy

These are players that are slipping past the radar. If I have time to make cases before dayend, I'll be pushing into this group and voting.

I'm sorry I missed this, I wish I'd been here more this game.

How coincidental of Jack to start laying out reads now.

And how nice of cbob to butter him up and inflate his standing. He a teammate?

I think jack is distancing from nova and maybe speed. Can’t determine yet. I’m now convinced jack is only choosing to be “straight” because he has pressure.

who was pressuring jack

I'm just noting this as the beginning of kyle's outward awareness of the speedchuck case on Day 5. Scotty says some things about Jack with implied suspicion against nova and speedchuck. Kyle asks about Jack's opponents. Okay.

@Jackofhearts2005 is your preferred lynch of the day speedchuck?

The answer is "yes".

I have speed as a town read, if I don't lynch him that makes me look bad

what?

I don't disagree with the question, but daisy pursued it in a more meaningful way.

who shot first between speed and jack? what's the timeline

Wrapping his head around the speed/jack kerfuffle. Also I want to stubbornly point out that kyle is employing the same method of filling himself in by asking questions about current events that he criticized me for earlier this phase.

i wanna see what happens if i [VOTE: speedchuck] aubergine

He votes for speedchuck. I don't know exactly what the poll was like at the time, but I can take a peak at timing and thread context...
This is very early in Day 5. Things were unsettled, but the general attitude toward speedchuck was that he was bad. I see no reason this can't be a safe bit of distancing from Kyle. It should be noted that Kyle has not stated any suspicion of speedchuck prior to this in the game.

Nova, 100% Nova

why so many %?

I don't have thoughts on speedchuck yet

space daisy i look up to you as a bastion of good reading ability, i would take it as a personal favor if you looked over his iso and gave an impression

implores daisy to look at speedchuck. He doesn't look at speedchuck himself though.

Nova is town.

Jack is trying to prove a point. He might actually think I'm bad if he's 3P. He's wrong, and he doesn't care. He never cared before I prodded back at him.

Way I see it, if Jack is 3P, he cannot lose with my lynch. When I flip town, he'll send out his last offer and join scum. If I flipped scum, he'd join town with that extra cred. Tell me his MO doesn't look like this.

hey by the way what the heck does this mean, do you think jack is 3p?

Fixed a typo.

I think it's likely.

then why are you voting for him

Not a bad question, but at this point things were starting to tip against speedchuck and this is the first time I feel like I've seen Kyle put any meaningful pressure on him in quite a number of posts.

My vote for speedchuck along with my reading him and encouraging SD to give an opinion on him, which resulted in her making a case on him was 90% based on my assumption that Jack has used an info role on Speedchuck during night 4

did you see the link Scotty compiled? why would Jack wait till night 4 to use any info role on speed is the question, considering he's called for speed's lynch and scumminess practically from day 1. who else has Jack done that with? who else has Jack actively hounded up until Day 5? and coincidentally, day 5 is the day he gets heat. seems convenient? I just don't like to assume everything is a coincidence.

I haven't read anything I'm still like 4 pages behind.

Jack's sudden escalation in suspecting Speedchuck has no visible reasoning, he even said "I've suspected speedchuck since the beginning, I just started going hard on it starting last night" it seemed arbitrary, and the reason I trusted it was because of that. but there's a lot of things that don't actually add up.

Post-lynch Kyle lends some support to the theory that Jack bussed speedchuck, which I am still not buying. I'd still be open to hearing a comprehensive argument in favor of it, but now I need to leave in like 45 minutes and I don't think that's happening before day's end.

So, as I let slip, I'm comfortable with my vote on Kyle based on these interactions. That said, I don't think this is a rock solid case. For instance, my focus is limited almost entirely to Kyle's treatment of speedchuck in this ISO, so I am not getting a full picture of his activity in the game, and the casual, breezy manner in which he treated chuck is almost certainly not an isolated thing for Kyle. But as I look through it, it is decidedly uninspiring and there's absolutely nothing in any of these posts that makes me think Kyle is absolutely a town read.
Still voting Kylemii, and I'd be happy to have his name kept in the conversation as we work toward the deadline today. But I won't be around for the final 3+ hours.

[Turnip Head]

QUICK [mention]Kylemii[/mention] get in my hoodie

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei

Everyone sees Daisy as town based on GTH.

Wolbre is about 50/50.

In regards to Speed’s gth history, I remember his first game on the site (Phenon) well because we talked a lot about our home sites and mechanics. I have played probably 75% of the games here since then and have played GTH like 3 times. So I assume his number is pretty similar.

I appreciate you weighing in on Quin and would particularly like your full thoughts on Quin, Dunya and Wolbre. That’s where I’m looking to lynch from today.

Linki: I’ll read those linkis in a min

There's no way I can produce a comprehensive read on dunya today, but I can weigh in on any specific points you have about her. I just did wolbre as you've seen, and my Quin read was enhanced by the speedchuck ISO I did last night.

I plan on looking at kyle next and then I'll see how much time I have left after that. What are your thoughts on him and marmot?

Kyle has been phoning the game in hard. Not going after anyone and lots of fluff.

I think he’s 3P and trying to tell the mafia not to shoot him. Slight chance he’s bad pretending to do the above. I’d rate his chances of actually being to at less than 10% but I also buy him as the last 3P player.

I don’t have any strong opinions about Marmot. He’s putting forth effort but not necessarily useful effort. I can’t imagine lynching him over Quin at this point unless I found a reason to townread Quin. I also just don’t suspect him as much as Dunya or Wolbre. I think the worst thing he has going for him is that when I started going at it with Speed and Scotty the day Speed got lynched, Marmot was around and basically didn’t react to my posts. He later claimed to have not seen my case/recognized it as a case.

This is the sort of thing I could go for. I don't have time to do another ISO, unfortunately, but I'd encourage Marmot to be investigated based solely on this observation. I don't think he can respond to anything today though.

[Sloonei]

QUICK @Kylemii get in my hoodie

Do you have any confidence in your reads yet?