Inception [END]

[Epignosis]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

"Hello. I'm Master Radishes. I'm full of shit and not a civilian but trying to influence the outcome of this in my own best interest."

[sprityo]

If I'm looking at this right it looks like today's Lynch should come from Day 3 Stage 1. Stage 2 had Eva, we had Elephant and Drago.

almost!, stage 3 had Eva, so stage 2 still had someone when her, MR, and myself left for day 4

[sprityo]

If I'm looking at this right it looks like today's Lynch should come from Day 3 Stage 1. Stage 2 had Eva, we had Elephant and Drago.

almost!, stage 3 had Eva, so stage 2 still had someone when her, MR, and myself left for day 4

nevermind im stupid

[sprityo]

Spoiler: show

Below shows how each stage started on their specific day. Let's assume that Mafia were required to keep one player in each stage because yknow it's Inception and they sent 4 players into the dream and that the mafia role list on the front is complete. 6 mafia total. That would mean the only 3 players that never left reality are town. That would also mean 4 of the players in the dream are mafia, one of which was Evenstar. that makes it a weird split as well.

Alternatively it was a 3-3 reality to dream scenario. there is one player in juliets/LC/TL that is mafia, one mafia in Stage 1 and one mafia in stage 2 that we havent found. Evenstar was the mafia in stage 3. im confident the setup wouldnt be any more convoluted then that.


Reality:

juliets
Long Con
Trustworthy Liberal
-----------------
Benson
DFaraday
vanity.
Creature
Elephant
nutella
Spiny Creature / boo
Hyena
----------
Dragomir
TonyStarkPrime
Texas Cloverleaf



Stage 1:
112
Epignosis
iaafr
Jackofhearts2005
Lady LambdaDelta
MacDougall
Master Radishes
Pawn Lelouch
Quin
Rej / ColinIsCool
sprityo
-------
Evenstar
Michelle
Dom
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
novaselinenever

Stage 2:
ColinIsCool (Rej)
Epignosis
iaafr
Jackofhearts2005
Master Radishes
Pawn Lelouch
sprityo
--------
Evenstar
Dom

Stage 3:
Master Radishes
sprityo
--------
Evenstar

The biggest point im trying to drive home is one of juliets/LC/TL are mafia if there were always 3 mafia in the reality level of the game

Otherwise they are all town.

[mention]Quin[/mention] [mention]iaafr[/mention] [mention]MacDougall[/mention] [mention]Pawn Lelouch[/mention] [mention]ColinIsCool[/mention] [mention]Trustworthy Liberal[/mention] [mention]112[/mention] [mention]Lady LambdaDelta[/mention]

[sprityo]

If I'm looking at this right it looks like today's Lynch should come from Day 3 Stage 1. Stage 2 had Eva, we had Elephant and Drago.

almost!, stage 3 had Eva, so stage 2 still had [a mafia] when her, MR, and myself left for day 4

nevermind im stupid

double sike, i was right the first time.

[Trustworthy Liberal]

Spoiler: show

Below shows how each stage started on their specific day. Let's assume that Mafia were required to keep one player in each stage because yknow it's Inception and they sent 4 players into the dream and that the mafia role list on the front is complete. 6 mafia total. That would mean the only 3 players that never left reality are town. That would also mean 4 of the players in the dream are mafia, one of which was Evenstar. that makes it a weird split as well.

Alternatively it was a 3-3 reality to dream scenario. there is one player in juliets/LC/TL that is mafia, one mafia in Stage 1 and one mafia in stage 2 that we havent found. Evenstar was the mafia in stage 3. im confident the setup wouldnt be any more convoluted then that.


Reality:

juliets
Long Con
Trustworthy Liberal
-----------------
Benson
DFaraday
vanity.
Creature
Elephant
nutella
Spiny Creature / boo
Hyena
----------
Dragomir
TonyStarkPrime
Texas Cloverleaf



Stage 1:
112
Epignosis
iaafr
Jackofhearts2005
Lady LambdaDelta
MacDougall
Master Radishes
Pawn Lelouch
Quin
Rej / ColinIsCool
sprityo
-------
Evenstar
Michelle
Dom
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
novaselinenever

Stage 2:
ColinIsCool (Rej)
Epignosis
iaafr
Jackofhearts2005
Master Radishes
Pawn Lelouch
sprityo
--------
Evenstar
Dom

Stage 3:
Master Radishes
sprityo
--------
Evenstar

The biggest point im trying to drive home is one of juliets/LC/TL are mafia if there were always 3 mafia in the reality level of the game

Otherwise they are all town.

@Quin @iaafr @MacDougall @Pawn Lelouch @ColinIsCool @Trustworthy Liberal @112 @Lady LambdaDelta

Okay I read the list so I have to ask why are you pretty muxh clearing LC in the grouping Juleits/TL(Me)/LC
Cause time you mention names his seems to be the first dropped?

[Trustworthy Liberal]

hypothetically, in a juliets versus TL world. who is mafia?

If you are stuck in a vision where one of the two of me and juliets I mafia and you don't town read me I don't believe I can convince you i am at this point. I've already done all i can think of to prove it and still am but i don't believe your real ob me will change much at all from this point on.

[sprityo]

Spoiler: show

Below shows how each stage started on their specific day. Let's assume that Mafia were required to keep one player in each stage because yknow it's Inception and they sent 4 players into the dream and that the mafia role list on the front is complete. 6 mafia total. That would mean the only 3 players that never left reality are town. That would also mean 4 of the players in the dream are mafia, one of which was Evenstar. that makes it a weird split as well.

Alternatively it was a 3-3 reality to dream scenario. there is one player in juliets/LC/TL that is mafia, one mafia in Stage 1 and one mafia in stage 2 that we havent found. Evenstar was the mafia in stage 3. im confident the setup wouldnt be any more convoluted then that.


Reality:

juliets
Long Con
Trustworthy Liberal
-----------------
Benson
DFaraday
vanity.
Creature
Elephant
nutella
Spiny Creature / boo
Hyena
----------
Dragomir
TonyStarkPrime
Texas Cloverleaf



Stage 1:
112
Epignosis
iaafr
Jackofhearts2005
Lady LambdaDelta
MacDougall
Master Radishes
Pawn Lelouch
Quin
Rej / ColinIsCool
sprityo
-------
Evenstar
Michelle
Dom
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
novaselinenever

Stage 2:
ColinIsCool (Rej)
Epignosis
iaafr
Jackofhearts2005
Master Radishes
Pawn Lelouch
sprityo
--------
Evenstar
Dom

Stage 3:
Master Radishes
sprityo
--------
Evenstar

The biggest point im trying to drive home is one of juliets/LC/TL are mafia if there were always 3 mafia in the reality level of the game

Otherwise they are all town.

@Quin @iaafr @MacDougall @Pawn Lelouch @ColinIsCool @Trustworthy Liberal @112 @Lady LambdaDelta

Okay I read the list so I have to ask why are you pretty muxh clearing LC in the grouping Juleits/TL(Me)/LC
Cause time you mention names his seems to be the first dropped?

oh right i forgot him

[sprityo]

[mention]Long Con[/mention] see above

[sprityo]

hypothetically, in a juliets versus TL world. who is mafia?

If you are stuck in a vision where one of the two of me and juliets I mafia and you don't town read me I don't believe I can convince you i am at this point. I've already done all i can think of to prove it and still am but i don't believe your real ob me will change much at all from this point on.

perhaps, i trust long con more than the two of you because of Day 1 to be honest

[Jackofhearts2005]

Hey Epi, sorry for not being here earlier. The wife and I went to a friend's house for the evening and played Cards Against Humanity. Why are you freaking out over a couple of votes with a day left until lynch time?

People talking about the MR-Indy-Mal-poisoning thing made me think... why should it be assumed it was a 3P action? As someone pointed out to me earlier, the roles list in the first post is incomplete, so maybe it was a town poisoner.

I wonder if anyone else is going to die like that? I also wonder when Eva knew she was going to die? And why did she leave the Scum Team a legacy post, and not just say what she needs to say in BTSC? Is there a deception within her words intended for some deep-wolfing endgame? Does anyone even remember anything she said? All good questions.

I'll get you a fresh review on Mac and iaafr. For now I'm going to [VOTE: juliets] aubergine because she didn't look good from the Elephant interactions, and a couple of other things.

Half the players seemed to be pocketed by Evenstar.

Would have had to be a hell of a heroshot to be from town.

Makes perfect sense from 3P.

[Epignosis]

Hey Epi, sorry for not being here earlier. The wife and I went to a friend's house for the evening and played Cards Against Humanity. Why are you freaking out over a couple of votes with a day left until lynch time?

People talking about the MR-Indy-Mal-poisoning thing made me think... why should it be assumed it was a 3P action? As someone pointed out to me earlier, the roles list in the first post is incomplete, so maybe it was a town poisoner.

I wonder if anyone else is going to die like that? I also wonder when Eva knew she was going to die? And why did she leave the Scum Team a legacy post, and not just say what she needs to say in BTSC? Is there a deception within her words intended for some deep-wolfing endgame? Does anyone even remember anything she said? All good questions.

I'll get you a fresh review on Mac and iaafr. For now I'm going to [VOTE: juliets] aubergine because she didn't look good from the Elephant interactions, and a couple of other things.

I think that's a very poor choice at this stage. How do you reconcile your vote with juliets' Day 1 play?

[Epignosis]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

Also, see sprityo's signature.

[sprityo]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

Also, see sprityo's signature.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Err.....poison Eva (I guess).

Like if she flips wolf, that pissed off wolves. If she flips town, pisses off townies, especially if we trust him less than Sprityo and think there’s a wolf in pretend F3.

I think 3P killed Eva and Nutella but of all the players who would make those kills as 3P, Radishes is at the bottom of the list.

So it's sprityo or someone else? Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "and think there's a wolf in pretend F3". There was a wolf, Eva. But I hear what you're saying about Master being at the bottom of the list. I had been reading him as town so I'll step back to that read.

I feel better about Mac this morning since he made his post to Epi.

hypothetically, in a juliets versus TL world. who is mafia?

How or why did you narrow it down to me and TLib? What about 112, for instance. She came in, plopped a vote down against Epi without engaging in the game at all.

There does, however, have to be a syndicater on the scum team I think and it's not me. Figure out who that is. If you vote me so be it.

I mean if we as a whole prior to the Eva flip assume there is a wolf in pretend F3 (calling it Limbo 3 from now on), then a townflip on Eva is disastrous for 3P Radishes because it means we start looking at him harder.

[Jackofhearts2005]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

"Hello. I'm Master Radishes. I'm full of shit and not a civilian but trying to influence the outcome of this in my own best interest."

Ooph.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[mention]sprityo[/mention]

I appreciate the effort but we don’t know what level Drago was supposed to go to or if his early death changed who goes where.

That said, I think there are still scum in each level so whatever.

Also, there is no reality thread. I’m still dreaming.

[Master Radishes]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

"Hello. I'm Master Radishes. I'm full of shit and not a civilian but trying to influence the outcome of this in my own best interest."

"Hello. I'm Epignosis. I can't argue against my accuser using logic and reasoning because I do indeed have connections to every single dead scum, so I'm going to attack his credibility instead."

You know you're losing an argument when...?

[Master Radishes]

Hey Epi, sorry for not being here earlier. The wife and I went to a friend's house for the evening and played Cards Against Humanity. Why are you freaking out over a couple of votes with a day left until lynch time?

People talking about the MR-Indy-Mal-poisoning thing made me think... why should it be assumed it was a 3P action? As someone pointed out to me earlier, the roles list in the first post is incomplete, so maybe it was a town poisoner.

I wonder if anyone else is going to die like that? I also wonder when Eva knew she was going to die? And why did she leave the Scum Team a legacy post, and not just say what she needs to say in BTSC? Is there a deception within her words intended for some deep-wolfing endgame? Does anyone even remember anything she said? All good questions.

I'll get you a fresh review on Mac and iaafr. For now I'm going to [VOTE: juliets] aubergine because she didn't look good from the Elephant interactions, and a couple of other things.

I think that's a very poor choice at this stage. How do you reconcile your vote with juliets' Day 1 play?

Epi: 'Eva's D1 play clears her from being Drago's teammate.'

*Eva flips scum*

Epi: 'Juliets' D1 play...'

[Epignosis]

I know juliets better than I know Evenstar. I don't think juliets is bad.

[Epignosis]

Since you are voting me, I must ask you if you believe all four of these things:

1. I stood by while allowing my godfather (arguably the most important mafia role when a cop is in play) to go down Day 1. Note that I voted 112 early and made no effort to drum up support for a 112 lynch, made no effort to get someone else lynched, and made no effort to get myself lynched in the godfather's stead.

2. I went through everyone's interactions with Dragomir, only to have my teammate shit on them instead of using them to guide civilian lynches. Rather than use my contributions to guide civilians into making mistakes, Evenstar dismissed them and instead used that effort as the basis for her trying to get me lynched.

3. Evenstar, who voted 112 instead of Dragomir and who voted Hyena instead of Elephant, was perfectly okay with lynching me and actively pushed for that to happen throughout the phase.

4. I went out of my way Day 2 to make Dom upset.

[Long Con]

Hey Epi, sorry for not being here earlier. The wife and I went to a friend's house for the evening and played Cards Against Humanity. Why are you freaking out over a couple of votes with a day left until lynch time?

People talking about the MR-Indy-Mal-poisoning thing made me think... why should it be assumed it was a 3P action? As someone pointed out to me earlier, the roles list in the first post is incomplete, so maybe it was a town poisoner.

I wonder if anyone else is going to die like that? I also wonder when Eva knew she was going to die? And why did she leave the Scum Team a legacy post, and not just say what she needs to say in BTSC? Is there a deception within her words intended for some deep-wolfing endgame? Does anyone even remember anything she said? All good questions.

I'll get you a fresh review on Mac and iaafr. For now I'm going to [VOTE: juliets] aubergine because she didn't look good from the Elephant interactions, and a couple of other things.

I think that's a very poor choice at this stage. How do you reconcile your vote with juliets' Day 1 play?

What is it about her Day 1 play? You've had juliets as lock town since Day 1?

[Master Radishes]

I won't get into finding scum 'per dream level' because we can't actually assert with certainty that there was x scum per level. That became heavily affected by choice of 'lynch' + 'kill'. The exception is the initial split (and 'Limbo 3') because of course it would be somewhat balanced to start with.

So I agree - and have for awhile now - that there are still scum amongst Juliets/Long Con/T Lib.

D1 vote count

[10] Dragomir - Benson, nutella, vanity., Long Con, Master Radishes, Hyena, Trustworthy Liberal, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, Pawn Lelouch, juliets
[7] 112 - Creature, Evenstar, TonyStarkPrime, novaselinenever, Elephant, Epignosis, Jackofhearts2005
[3] Evenstar - Texas Cloverleaf, sprityo, Quin
[2] Hyena - Dom, Michelle
[2] No Lynch - iaafr, boo
[1] Epignosis - MacDougall
[1] MacDougall - Dragomir
[1] nutella - Lady LambdaDelta
[1] Trustworthy Liberal - 112
--------------------------

Two scum voting against Drago. Admittedly, Elephant was earlier in the round, but Eva was in the final minutes. So that suggests they didn't want Drago to die. Epi and Jack both voted 112 a few hours before EoD, so are not immediately suspect because of their votes, but fit the profile well enough. I don't think both are scum, though, and my thoughts on which one could be are pretty clear by this point.

That said, there are almost certainly scum bussing, and 112 is not cleared.


Vote analysis to be continued.

[Master Radishes]

D2 vc
[5] boo - Long Con, Hyena, nutella, Benson, vanity.,
[5] DFaraday - Trustworthy Liberal, Creature, juliets,boo , Elephant
[1] Trustworthy Liberal - DFaraday

D3 vc
[1] Creature - NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME
[2] Elephant - Long Con, vanity.
[3] Nova/Ty4on - nutella, juliets, Creature
[1] Trustworthy Liberal - Nova/Ty4on
[3] vanity. -Trustworthy Liberal, Elephant, Hyena

D4 vc
[3] Trustworthy Liberal - Long Con, vanity., Creature
[5] vanity. - Elephant, juliets, Hyena, nutella, Trustworthy Liberal
non voting - Quin, LLD

Here's the meaty bit.

D2 was a v/v tied lynch. Did the scum really pile up on just DF rather than having someone on boo too? That would be unusual play, but I guess not impossible. Still, this is not the best look for LC, who fits the obligatory scum slot on a town lynch.

D3 looks better for LC, as he was voting Elephant who was only one vote from possibly being lynched. I've mentioned before really not liking TL's play w.r.t. the vanity lynch attempts, but equally the Ty4on lynch was a 'lazy' one for juliets to latch on to considering she was supposedly uncertain of vanity.

D4...hm. LC is alone on the counterwagon amongst remaining unknowns, and surely the scum don't all wagon vanity if they're trying to keep their distance? I also remember him being one of the lone dissenting voices in lynching vanity, which is always a potential TMI scumtell for future 'told you so' towncred. But Juliets and TL had both been agreeing with a vanity lynch for multiple phases (juliets with more waffling than TL) which could equally be seen as backing up Elephant's powerpush against a strong but vulnerable town. If there are only two scum in this level (Elephant being one) then I'd say LC is town. If we think there could be three, then LC is scum and so is one of juliets/TL.

So a load of WIFOM, but basically:
-Scum!LC was distancing himself from Elephant
-Scum!Juliets was trying to look uncertain but always made sure she ended up on a desired lynch
-Scum!TL took the lazy route of being Elephant's lackey in pushing the vanity wagon again and again

All possible worlds. LC's play as a whole has looked good, but not locktown good. Juliets' play has been a lot of waffling and not a lot of gamesolving. TL's play has been unnoticeable which is a bit NAI I suppose.

Shrug emoji.

But there's definitely a wolf in here somewhere. I'd be happy to have this our lynch pool today.

[Long Con]

You are trying to get value from your List of Four, Epi, and I should let you know that it isn't working on me. Here is why:

Since you are voting me, I must ask you if you believe all four of these things:

1. I stood by while allowing my godfather (arguably the most important mafia role when a cop is in play) to go down Day 1. Note that I voted 112 early and made no effort to drum up support for a 112 lynch, made no effort to get someone else lynched, and made no effort to get myself lynched in the godfather's stead.

Why is it so impossible to believe that you "allowed" Drago to be lynched, when there are five players in the game who did exactly that? What is it about you that makes this point valid, some quality that no other player in the game has? Are you the lynchmaster, and get to decide on your own who gets lynched each day? If you were Drago's teammate, you would go all-out on a counterwagon on Day 1? Don't you think that's something that even the most rudimentary Mafia player would find suspicious after a few days of info came around, making it a foolish move for an experienced Mafia player?

2. I went through everyone's interactions with Dragomir, only to have my teammate shit on them instead of using them to guide civilian lynches. Rather than use my contributions to guide civilians into making mistakes, Evenstar dismissed them and instead used that effort as the basis for her trying to get me lynched.

Nothing about that says it couldn't be distancing. There are other memorable instances between you two that could easily be the same kind of antagonistic distancing she did with Dragomir. That is obvious precedent within this same game, like insta-meta. Eva dismisses your reads and then dies, making your reads look even better because a wolf dismissed them.

3. Evenstar, who voted 112 instead of Dragomir and who voted Hyena instead of Elephant, was perfectly okay with lynching me and actively pushed for that to happen throughout the phase.
...a phase where she ended up voting for Hyena, and not you.

4. I went out of my way Day 2 to make Dom upset.
I know this is your coup de grâce point, and it's impossible for me to speak to because I haven't read it.

[Epignosis]

Hey Epi, sorry for not being here earlier. The wife and I went to a friend's house for the evening and played Cards Against Humanity. Why are you freaking out over a couple of votes with a day left until lynch time?

People talking about the MR-Indy-Mal-poisoning thing made me think... why should it be assumed it was a 3P action? As someone pointed out to me earlier, the roles list in the first post is incomplete, so maybe it was a town poisoner.

I wonder if anyone else is going to die like that? I also wonder when Eva knew she was going to die? And why did she leave the Scum Team a legacy post, and not just say what she needs to say in BTSC? Is there a deception within her words intended for some deep-wolfing endgame? Does anyone even remember anything she said? All good questions.

I'll get you a fresh review on Mac and iaafr. For now I'm going to [VOTE: juliets] aubergine because she didn't look good from the Elephant interactions, and a couple of other things.

I think that's a very poor choice at this stage. How do you reconcile your vote with juliets' Day 1 play?

What is it about her Day 1 play? You've had juliets as lock town since Day 1?

Obviously not (I reconsidered as late as this Day phase).

I already commented on juliets' Day 1.

[Epignosis]

You are trying to get value from your List of Four, Epi, and I should let you know that it isn't working on me. Here is why:

Since you are voting me, I must ask you if you believe all four of these things:

1. I stood by while allowing my godfather (arguably the most important mafia role when a cop is in play) to go down Day 1. Note that I voted 112 early and made no effort to drum up support for a 112 lynch, made no effort to get someone else lynched, and made no effort to get myself lynched in the godfather's stead.

Why is it so impossible to believe that you "allowed" Drago to be lynched, when there are five players in the game who did exactly that? What is it about you that makes this point valid, some quality that no other player in the game has? Are you the lynchmaster, and get to decide on your own who gets lynched each day? If you were Drago's teammate, you would go all-out on a counterwagon on Day 1? Don't you think that's something that even the most rudimentary Mafia player would find suspicious after a few days of info came around, making it a foolish move for an experienced Mafia player?

2. I went through everyone's interactions with Dragomir, only to have my teammate shit on them instead of using them to guide civilian lynches. Rather than use my contributions to guide civilians into making mistakes, Evenstar dismissed them and instead used that effort as the basis for her trying to get me lynched.

Nothing about that says it couldn't be distancing. There are other memorable instances between you two that could easily be the same kind of antagonistic distancing she did with Dragomir. That is obvious precedent within this same game, like insta-meta. Eva dismisses your reads and then dies, making your reads look even better because a wolf dismissed them.

3. Evenstar, who voted 112 instead of Dragomir and who voted Hyena instead of Elephant, was perfectly okay with lynching me and actively pushed for that to happen throughout the phase.
...a phase where she ended up voting for Hyena, and not you.

4. I went out of my way Day 2 to make Dom upset.
I know this is your coup de grâce point, and it's impossible for me to speak to because I haven't read it.

Whatever.

Lynch me then. I'm too busy to bother with this bullshit anyway.

[Master Radishes]

Since you are voting me, I must ask you if you believe all four of these things:

1. I stood by while allowing my godfather (arguably the most important mafia role when a cop is in play) to go down Day 1. Note that I voted 112 early and made no effort to drum up support for a 112 lynch, made no effort to get someone else lynched, and made no effort to get myself lynched in the godfather's stead.

2. I went through everyone's interactions with Dragomir, only to have my teammate shit on them instead of using them to guide civilian lynches. Rather than use my contributions to guide civilians into making mistakes, Evenstar dismissed them and instead used that effort as the basis for her trying to get me lynched.

3. Evenstar, who voted 112 instead of Dragomir and who voted Hyena instead of Elephant, was perfectly okay with lynching me and actively pushed for that to happen throughout the phase.

4. I went out of my way Day 2 to make Dom upset.

1. We've already established the Godfather is not a particularly powerful role in a 30-player non-claim game. You're basically asking me to 'note' that you sat on a vote and did nothing about it. Your actions here do not prove you scum nor town. If anything, the fact you didn't show any movement at EoD1 despite your lack of commitment about 112 shows a lack of concern. You seemed content with where you were voting, but generally speaking townies are quite concerned about 'getting it right' during a frenetic EoD, leading to visible doubt.

2. Scum!Epi put in a lot of busywork and scum!Eva distanced herself. What's hard to believe about this?

3. These events happened in different contexts. Eva was playing with an agenda, and her agenda in one Day phase was not the same as her agenda in another Day phase. E.g. she pushed to save Elephant as time ticked down and his lynch was a real possibility, and not before that. At no point were you a particularly serious wagon in the final minutes of a phase end, barring D1 (where she, in fact, implicitly defended you).

4. Can't comment on this. But, I mean, some players make up dead cats to gain towncred. It's pretty NAI to be honest.


So, yes, I can believe all those things without stretching my imagination very hard.

[Epignosis]

Since you are voting me, I must ask you if you believe all four of these things:

1. I stood by while allowing my godfather (arguably the most important mafia role when a cop is in play) to go down Day 1. Note that I voted 112 early and made no effort to drum up support for a 112 lynch, made no effort to get someone else lynched, and made no effort to get myself lynched in the godfather's stead.

2. I went through everyone's interactions with Dragomir, only to have my teammate shit on them instead of using them to guide civilian lynches. Rather than use my contributions to guide civilians into making mistakes, Evenstar dismissed them and instead used that effort as the basis for her trying to get me lynched.

3. Evenstar, who voted 112 instead of Dragomir and who voted Hyena instead of Elephant, was perfectly okay with lynching me and actively pushed for that to happen throughout the phase.

4. I went out of my way Day 2 to make Dom upset.

1. We've already established the Godfather is not a particularly powerful role in a 30-player non-claim game. You're basically asking me to 'note' that you sat on a vote and did nothing about it. Your actions here do not prove you scum nor town. If anything, the fact you didn't show any movement at EoD1 despite your lack of commitment about 112 shows a lack of concern. You seemed content with where you were voting, but generally speaking townies are quite concerned about 'getting it right' during a frenetic EoD, leading to visible doubt.

2. Scum!Epi put in a lot of busywork and scum!Eva distanced herself. What's hard to believe about this?

3. These events happened in different contexts. Eva was playing with an agenda, and her agenda in one Day phase was not the same as her agenda in another Day phase. E.g. she pushed to save Elephant as time ticked down and his lynch was a real possibility, and not before that. At no point were you a particularly serious wagon in the final minutes of a phase end, barring D1 (where she, in fact, implicitly defended you).

4. Can't comment on this. But, I mean, some players make up dead cats to gain towncred. It's pretty NAI to be honest.


So, yes, I can believe all those things without stretching my imagination very hard.

1. "We" haven't established anything. I don't agree with that assessment whatsoever.

2. It's shit play. If It were bad I would expect my team to leverage my work.

3. And then she turned around right after that and went after me for the stupidest reasons imaginable. Come on.

4. I don't know what dead cats have to do with anything.

[Master Radishes]

Day 5
[5] Elephant - hyena, LC, nutella, Michelle, Dom
[2] Evenstar - Master Radishes, Sprityo
[3] Hyena - Mac, Evenstar, Pawn
[1] iaafr - Quin
[2] Long Con - iaafr, juliets
[1] Michelle - elephant
[1] Nutella - LLD
[2] Pawn - Epi, Jack

LC bussing a partner during a frenetic and uncertain day's end? That's risky if scum. (I can't remember when his vote was placed there - was it EoD or hours earlier?)

Also notable: Eva clearly tried to save Elephant by voting the only serious counterwagon, Hyena. Also there: Mac and Pawn.

Eva's 'come on Elephant, vote Hyena' comment sounds in this context like an openwolf comment to a partner. Elephant chose instead to vote off wagon to avoid associations, I suppose.

Aside from Eva, was either Mac or Pawn a scum trying to stop an Elephant lynch?

Eva and Pawn her playing a Mason game the whole time. They say they read each other better than anyone else can. And yet they called each other Town (beyond one very brief moment where Eva pretended to scumread Pawn, then backed down very quickly.)

Pawn is guilty by association to Eva. But I'm not sure that flip is the best choice today when we also have Epi and the LC/Juliets/TL triangle we could sort.

[Epignosis]

Matter of fact, it was Evenstar (mafia) who pushed the idea that the godfather was useless and used that idea against me.

[Master Radishes]

Since you are voting me, I must ask you if you believe all four of these things:

1. I stood by while allowing my godfather (arguably the most important mafia role when a cop is in play) to go down Day 1. Note that I voted 112 early and made no effort to drum up support for a 112 lynch, made no effort to get someone else lynched, and made no effort to get myself lynched in the godfather's stead.

2. I went through everyone's interactions with Dragomir, only to have my teammate shit on them instead of using them to guide civilian lynches. Rather than use my contributions to guide civilians into making mistakes, Evenstar dismissed them and instead used that effort as the basis for her trying to get me lynched.

3. Evenstar, who voted 112 instead of Dragomir and who voted Hyena instead of Elephant, was perfectly okay with lynching me and actively pushed for that to happen throughout the phase.

4. I went out of my way Day 2 to make Dom upset.

1. We've already established the Godfather is not a particularly powerful role in a 30-player non-claim game. You're basically asking me to 'note' that you sat on a vote and did nothing about it. Your actions here do not prove you scum nor town. If anything, the fact you didn't show any movement at EoD1 despite your lack of commitment about 112 shows a lack of concern. You seemed content with where you were voting, but generally speaking townies are quite concerned about 'getting it right' during a frenetic EoD, leading to visible doubt.

2. Scum!Epi put in a lot of busywork and scum!Eva distanced herself. What's hard to believe about this?

3. These events happened in different contexts. Eva was playing with an agenda, and her agenda in one Day phase was not the same as her agenda in another Day phase. E.g. she pushed to save Elephant as time ticked down and his lynch was a real possibility, and not before that. At no point were you a particularly serious wagon in the final minutes of a phase end, barring D1 (where she, in fact, implicitly defended you).

4. Can't comment on this. But, I mean, some players make up dead cats to gain towncred. It's pretty NAI to be honest.


So, yes, I can believe all those things without stretching my imagination very hard.

1. "We" haven't established anything. I don't agree with that assessment whatsoever.

2. It's shit play. If It were bad I would expect my team to leverage my work.

3. And then she turned around right after that and went after me for the stupidest reasons imaginable. Come on.

4. I don't know what dead cats have to do with anything.

1. Fine. Doesn't change my opinion that your EoD1 play is, at best, NAI, and at worst not town play.

2. But you're not Eva. She plays her own way. So it's quite believable she'd shit on your work to distance.

3. Right, but she never actually got close to getting you lynched. It's like you've never heard of the concept of scum distancing themselves.

4. Sorry, MU Champs joke, since I know a few people here were playing/watching. (112 was mafia and made up a dead cat to wave away any questions about erratic or slanky play. The cat's name was Benson, which is where 'Benson' from this game, a friend of 112, got his name.)

[Master Radishes]

Matter of fact, it was Evenstar (mafia) who pushed the idea that the godfather was useless and used that idea against me.

Actually, I believe she initially used that idea against me, since that was right after I started casing her for her vote. I don't remember if she used it against you, but it's not like she could backtrack after using it against me.

(Also, I thought it was Rabbit, but they were basically the same person in D2, so I could be wrong and am not going to waste time checking.)

[Epignosis]

Matter of fact, it was Evenstar (mafia) who pushed the idea that the godfather was useless and used that idea against me.

Actually, I believe she initially used that idea against me, since that was right after I started casing her for her vote. I don't remember if she used it against you, but it's not like she could backtrack after using it against me.

(Also, I thought it was Rabbit, but they were basically the same person in D2, so I could be wrong and am not going to waste time checking.)

In the Day 2 thread, Evenstar effectively shit on my interrogation of iaafr.

This also indicates they are partners:

investigatives can't claim in this setup!!!!! the biggest potential payoff of a godfather is a single slot hard defending for no apparent reason!!!

*blinks*

that

is significant

and says that 112 is almost certainly town

scum are not going to hard defend their godfather under these kinds of harsh anti-claim conditions

aight who pushed the idea of the Godfather first they scum

This is an over-the-top reaction if I've ever seen one.

I was the one who commented on the godfather being the most important mafia role.

I got shit for it from both of these two.

radishes, who has been foremost pushing you on that logic

lmao

It's a good thing I checked rather than accepting this because it ain't, it's Epignosis.

[Epignosis]

4. Sorry, MU Champs joke, since I know a few people here were playing/watching. (112 was mafia and made up a dead cat to wave away any questions about erratic or slanky play. The cat's name was Benson, which is where 'Benson' from this game, a friend of 112, got his name.)

And see, that's shit I would never ever do. It's bad sportsmanship. If you believe I am Evenstar's teammate, then you believe I had a hand in orchestrating some really unpleasant shit that people got warnings for.

I am above that.

[Long Con]

Ok, let's try the technique on Epignosis. Epi and Elephant interaction analrapist:

Elephant - Elephant called my willingness to be lynched "reverse psychology." Anybody who knows me right now knows there is nothing reverse about working as much as I do. Elephant does not know me whatsoever, and I cannot judge Elephant for that. What I can do is judge Elephant for keeping his vote on me despite engaging with others. Would lynch, but not Day 1.

Not the best start. Very mild jabs between the two of them, Epi appeals to meta on a weak jab from Elephant. "Would lynch, but not Day 1" is not the towniest sentiment I've ever seen. I can't picture myself saying that about someone as town, but I guess it's not that much different from saying "I suspect Elephant a little, but there's a good chance I'll vote elsewhere today." I still don't like the way Epi said it.

To answer Elephant's question: "why did you really select Hyena to be your first push?"

He was there at the same time I was. And to be clear, it wasn't a push. It was my first suspicion. It is now a suspicion that lingers in the back of my mind for now.

Kind of meh. Elephant wants to spotlight the Hyena suspicion a bit I guess. Epi's response is mostly NAI, but using "now" twice in the last sentence is weirdly interesting, and interestingly weird.

I have no interest in an Elephant lynch Day 1 or Day 2 (probably not Day 3 either).

I don't even know what leads a person to post something like this, but it's not a good look for obvious reasons.

Don't need anything in my play. The Syndicate people will tell you I'm a civilian. Get used to it hon. This is my civilian bod. It's sexy.

Who are "the syndicate people" who are still with us? Colin, Dom, Epignosis, Jack, Juliets, Long Con, Radishes, nutella, Quin, Sprityo? Anyone who knows, please confirm or correct this list!

This was tongue-in-cheek, a nod to some bizarre theory that gained currency in one of our sub-threads.

Who are "the syndicate people" who are still with us? Colin, Dom, Epignosis, Jack, Juliets, Long Con, Radishes, nutella, Quin, Sprityo? Anyone who knows, please confirm or correct this list!

Day 23: I have successfully blended into the community. No one suspected I'm an outsider.



I'm not a Syndicater, but I'll take it as a compliment to be associated with these wonderful people and Jack.

So that must mean you're mafia.

I'd call this interaction NAI. Almost didn't include it, but I wanted to give credit to Radishes for the hilarious Day 23 comment. I laughed then and said nothing, and I'm not making that mistake again. Top drawer, sir!

Looking at the poll, it doesn't look like there was ever a concerted effort to save Dragomir at all. If there was one, it was that sudden surge against me, not the votes on 112. If I'm correct about Evenstar, the only two unknowns (from my perspective, obviously) are Elephant and JackofHearts2005.

Much better look, fingering Evenstar and Elephant in a way. Weak on Elephant, stronger on Eva, given that Elephant only gets to be "unknown" based on Eva's possible flip.

I feel like I've asked multiple people to talk to me about Elephant and I've been roundly ignored. Someone on this godforsaken dreamplane talk to me about the betrunked pachyderm.

I've put it on the backburner. Mea culpa.

I'll look into it later.

This isn't great at all. Nutella tries to push Elephant, and Epignosis pushes it back down.

Dom, nutella:

Give Evenstar another Day. Find someone else. There isn't just two mafia members. And I don't think it's her right now. Revisit Day 6 if you must.

I think Evenstar is a dumb lynch.

Jack or Elephant?

Out of the two, I'd lynch Jack.

I still have to see about Elephant though.

This is followed instantly with a vote on Jack, once again turning the thrust from Elephant. Also, that Evenstar comment.

Elephant 4 [Long Con, iaafr, Michelle, Nutella]
JackofHearts2005 2 [Epignosis, Dom]
Long Con 2 [Macdougall, JackofHearts2005]
Nutella 2 [Lady Lambdadelta, Evenstar]
Evenstar 2 [112, Sprityo]
Epignosis 1 [Pawn Lelouch]
Hyena 1 [Master Radishes]
iaafr 1 [Quin]
Dom 1[Elephant]
Trustworthy Liberal 1 [Hyena]

3 Not Voting: Juliets, ColinisCool, Trustworthy Liberal

17 votes cast and the largest wagon is 4.

What an absolutely atrocious votal. We need to get our shit together.

(I guess it's better than "nova/jack is obvious scum, lol", but not by much.)

@Hyena
@Elephant
@Quin
@Master Radishes
@Pawn Lelouch

All of you, make your strongest case for why the person you are on right now deserves to be in contention. If you don't have a case you're willing to put time in to defend, vote someone else.

@juliets
@ColinIsCool
@Trustworthy Liberal

This may be the most important day phase in the entire game. We need your input. Put a damn vote down already.

Dom is an infolynch at this point. If he flips scum, Michelle is absolutely town, unless she refuses to commit -- and if she refuses, I need to re-evaluate her.
I have made a case on Radishes for the F3 lynch.
Lynching in my group is straight POE.

This is the worst post I've seen from Elephant.

The anti-Elephant sentiment here is a good thing, but the complete lack of follow-up or explanation is not something I'd expect from Civ-Epi. When Epi is town, his accusations usually come with scathing explanations and a "no buts" finisher statement... or whatever, something, something that isn't the nothing we see here.

I looked back at my notes. I don't think I can vote for Elephant today.

Womp-womp. No explanation at all, again. A reference to "notes" should always call upon said notes for clarification, shouldn't it? Are there notes?

@Everyone, Elephant wants me to screw the logic of my reads and this is a scum tactic.

let's lynch scum today, thanks for understanding

How does the post below factor into the idea that Elephant and Dragomir are teammates?

Thanks Drago I'll think through this while eating lunch.

So Drago, I guess where I'm left with this is I don't see any game related point in role-playing your character whether you are town, or scum, or 3P since the character doesn't tell us anything about the person's abilities or their role. JJJ suggested role-playing your character in the OP as just something fun to do.

For example, let's say 112 is role playing the character "loneliness" and she later claims she is "loneliness". What does that tell us exactly? Not her alignment, nor her abilities since there is no correlation. So it tells us nothing, the way I see it.

But no one else seems confused by this, just me, so I don't want to belabor the point. I'll think further on it as we go forward.

I've been assuming that whatever character you have would dictate your alignment, like if your character is a good guy, they'd be town right?

Could you please roleplay your character? A paragraph should suffice.

How can you town read him for a meaningless post?
An invite to roleplay is nothing shading or distancing, I see there a normal convo I would never consider AI.

I don't agree that it's a meaningless post if you read the exchange fully. Elephant essentially shot down Dragomir's biggest angle when there would have been no reason to do so (unless you think someone would look back and give you credit for it like I'm doing, but I don't think that was Elephant's angle).

Argues with Michelle about Elephant's wolfiness. I don't understand why Epi would bring up this exchange in this situation, with that preface. Is this the "notes"?

Then he defends Elephant's towniness for it. Hindsight being 20/20, we now know that it's exactly what Elephant did, to distance from Dragomir. "Dragomir's biggest angle"?

His next post places Elephant in a "do not lynch" town place.

That's all I have time for right now. I'll keep the tab open and continue the Epi-Elephant analysis in a bit if I have time.

[112]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

"Hello. I'm Master Radishes. I'm full of shit and not a civilian but trying to influence the outcome of this in my own best interest."

"Hello. I'm Epignosis. I can't argue against my accuser using logic and reasoning because I do indeed have connections to every single dead scum, so I'm going to attack his credibility instead."

You know you're losing an argument when...?

big gottem

[Epignosis]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

"Hello. I'm Master Radishes. I'm full of shit and not a civilian but trying to influence the outcome of this in my own best interest."

"Hello. I'm Epignosis. I can't argue against my accuser using logic and reasoning because I do indeed have connections to every single dead scum, so I'm going to attack his credibility instead."

You know you're losing an argument when...?

big gottem

I don't suppose it would be too much to ask you to...you know...do something.

Unless you're attending another cat funeral, then pardon me.

[112]

@Syndicaters - is Epi's reaction here normal for his meta? I mean his whole 'civilians are fucked, there's no one here, you guys are playing the game wrong, just rememebr this after I die' diatribe. Because normally when I see that sort of reaction to someone's impending lynch, they're mafia trying to fake emotion they feel looks genuine.

"Hello. I'm Master Radishes. I'm full of shit and not a civilian but trying to influence the outcome of this in my own best interest."

"Hello. I'm Epignosis. I can't argue against my accuser using logic and reasoning because I do indeed have connections to every single dead scum, so I'm going to attack his credibility instead."

You know you're losing an argument when...?

big gottem

I don't suppose it would be too much to ask you to...you know...do something.

Unless you're attending another cat funeral, then pardon me.

I am going to try.

Could you tell the thread who you visited last night?

[Epignosis]

That would be against the rules, I'm afraid.

[112]

That would be against the rules, I'm afraid.

oh. whoops.

i guess i distorted my interpretation of it thru all these wild dreams

iaafr is probably scum, right?

[112]

I won't get into finding scum 'per dream level' because we can't actually assert with certainty that there was x scum per level. That became heavily affected by choice of 'lynch' + 'kill'. The exception is the initial split (and 'Limbo 3') because of course it would be somewhat balanced to start with.

So I agree - and have for awhile now - that there are still scum amongst Juliets/Long Con/T Lib.

D1 vote count

[10] Dragomir - Benson, nutella, vanity., Long Con, Master Radishes, Hyena, Trustworthy Liberal, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, Pawn Lelouch, juliets
[7] 112 - Creature, Evenstar, TonyStarkPrime, novaselinenever, Elephant, Epignosis, Jackofhearts2005
[3] Evenstar - Texas Cloverleaf, sprityo, Quin
[2] Hyena - Dom, Michelle
[2] No Lynch - iaafr, boo
[1] Epignosis - MacDougall
[1] MacDougall - Dragomir
[1] nutella - Lady LambdaDelta
[1] Trustworthy Liberal - 112
--------------------------

Two scum voting against Drago. Admittedly, Elephant was earlier in the round, but Eva was in the final minutes. So that suggests they didn't want Drago to die. Epi and Jack both voted 112 a few hours before EoD, so are not immediately suspect because of their votes, but fit the profile well enough. I don't think both are scum, though, and my thoughts on which one could be are pretty clear by this point.

That said, there are almost certainly scum bussing, and 112 is not cleared.


Vote analysis to be continued.

if that's the actual votecount, there's almost certainly scum in epi/jack

>90%

[Epignosis]

That's my current opinion.

[112]

That's my current opinion.

what are your thoughts re: wagonomics of d1 votes quoted above?

[112]

juliets had a weirdish post i barely remember where she randomly brought up earlier scumreads on her as if it was seriously burdening her mind

dunno if i'm misremembering, but it put me off

[Long Con]

I won't get into finding scum 'per dream level' because we can't actually assert with certainty that there was x scum per level. That became heavily affected by choice of 'lynch' + 'kill'. The exception is the initial split (and 'Limbo 3') because of course it would be somewhat balanced to start with.

So I agree - and have for awhile now - that there are still scum amongst Juliets/Long Con/T Lib.

D1 vote count

[10] Dragomir - Benson, nutella, vanity., Long Con, Master Radishes, Hyena, Trustworthy Liberal, NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, Pawn Lelouch, juliets
[7] 112 - Creature, Evenstar, TonyStarkPrime, novaselinenever, Elephant, Epignosis, Jackofhearts2005
[3] Evenstar - Texas Cloverleaf, sprityo, Quin
[2] Hyena - Dom, Michelle
[2] No Lynch - iaafr, boo
[1] Epignosis - MacDougall
[1] MacDougall - Dragomir
[1] nutella - Lady LambdaDelta
[1] Trustworthy Liberal - 112
--------------------------

Two scum voting against Drago. Admittedly, Elephant was earlier in the round, but Eva was in the final minutes. So that suggests they didn't want Drago to die. Epi and Jack both voted 112 a few hours before EoD, so are not immediately suspect because of their votes, but fit the profile well enough. I don't think both are scum, though, and my thoughts on which one could be are pretty clear by this point.

That said, there are almost certainly scum bussing, and 112 is not cleared.


Vote analysis to be continued.

if that's the actual votecount, there's almost certainly scum in epi/jack

>90%

Is that because they're the only two unsorted ones on your lynch?

[Long Con]

There wasn't much left to look at in the Epi-Elephant ISO.

[Epignosis]

That's my current opinion.

what are your thoughts re: wagonomics of d1 votes quoted above?

If I'm understanding your question correctly, the biggest takeaway from here is that Dragomir's team tried to rescue him even though he was around to rescue himself.

I had to look back to see why Jack voted you Day 1.

This seems a little too on the nose:

and I'm never lynching 112 day 1 (probably just never tbh).

How'd that work out for you last time bucko?

I’m reporting this post for unnecessary roughness.

Oh he knows I mean it lovingly and with all due admiration.
But I do have some serious concerns about 112's play here feeling similar to wc1. Could be that they just have a style consistent across alignments (and I didn't watch the finale so don't have that data) but I'm wary of trusting them due to past experience.

I could easily sheep your 112 read after you crushed their effigy from specchat during WC1.

I could also easy stay on Eva and see who jumps.

I still don't know why Jack voted 112 Day 1 even looking at the posts.

Jack said this:

The roleplaying character thing pings me hard for reasons being that there's a manipulative edge to it. I only see one perspective to why someone would do this is the scum perspective. Role-play your character in order to make it more believable if you got to claim it. Get ppl in the mindset that your character is this person thus clouding them from looking too much into the actual claim.

There's no town perspective to it imo. Why should town bother themselves with roleplaying their character?

Maybe if they really like their character.

I spent all of UPick calling people mongrels.

This is mostly me playing devil’s advocate tho. I don’t have a firm read on 112.

Then there's the first post I mentioned above, and then:

[VOTE: 112] aubergine

I was gonna post a Yao Ming face but you know, fuck him and fuck the Rockets. Sorry not sorry your enabling genocide is hurting your bottom line.

So while I don't really know why Jack voted 112, I can see that it was a very early vote (similar to mine). He apparently never moved the vote, so I couldn't say he was voting to rescue a teammate.

I'll look more closely among the Dragomir voters next.

[112]

that's fair and looks really bad tbh- the 'see who switches to eva' thing reads as actual high-probability TMI, and his waffling then uncommentated progression through to voting for me is unnatural and resembles an attempted save more than any honest application of townthink.

[112]

[mention]iaafr[/mention] - thoughts on jack? not sure if you've shared them yet but would like an up-to-date opinion.