King of the Hill Mafia

[Seanzie]

bad read but lucy wanting credit for coming to an alison V creature W world first is towny maybe lol

can you elaborate on why you have trouble reading me

i'm usually quite good at identifying when someone has a towny progression and when someone is putting in genuine effort into solving the ppl around them - one of the main ways that i solve games like this is just going through ISOs and going through individual progressions until i notice a pattern or find something that sticks out to me

you often play in a deliberately ambiguous way where it is difficult to track where your head is at in the moment or how you are getting from point A to point B, which makes it difficult for me to judge whether your reads are coming from an authentic place. i think this is probably the most clearly ive seen you express your view of the game in any of the 3 games ive played with you so far

What was your/Lucy's alignments in those three games?

town/town
town/town
this is game 3

@staypositivefriend You're noticing a difference in Lucy's play from when they were town... but you're town reading it? Talk me through that.

i don't consider the difference in lucy's play to be alignment indicative for her in either direction, because she made it clear at the beginning of this game that she is going to attempt to communicate her reads more clearly and focus on communication, and i believe she would attempt to do this as either alignment

i also think it's normal for players who are relatively new to mafia to have their playstyles change/develop a lot over the course of several games

Lucy has been playing for years (I think... at least a while), just on discord, not forum. Does that change your assessment?

[staypositivefriend]

also idk if seanzie/creature are teamed anymore after this page lol

can @Seanzie explain what made him change on his creature?

[staypositivefriend]

can you elaborate on why you have trouble reading me

i'm usually quite good at identifying when someone has a towny progression and when someone is putting in genuine effort into solving the ppl around them - one of the main ways that i solve games like this is just going through ISOs and going through individual progressions until i notice a pattern or find something that sticks out to me

you often play in a deliberately ambiguous way where it is difficult to track where your head is at in the moment or how you are getting from point A to point B, which makes it difficult for me to judge whether your reads are coming from an authentic place. i think this is probably the most clearly ive seen you express your view of the game in any of the 3 games ive played with you so far

What was your/Lucy's alignments in those three games?

town/town
town/town
this is game 3

@staypositivefriend You're noticing a difference in Lucy's play from when they were town... but you're town reading it? Talk me through that.

i don't consider the difference in lucy's play to be alignment indicative for her in either direction, because she made it clear at the beginning of this game that she is going to attempt to communicate her reads more clearly and focus on communication, and i believe she would attempt to do this as either alignment

i also think it's normal for players who are relatively new to mafia to have their playstyles change/develop a lot over the course of several games

Lucy has been playing for years (I think... at least a while), just on discord, not forum. Does that change your assessment?

not really. i played chat mafia for years before i played forum mafia but it still took me quite a while to develop a forum mafia style that works for me

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie what area of math do u study and are you in industry or academia

I study a subbranch of game theory known as mafia theory.

[VOTE: Lucy] aubergine

I'll give you an A in MAF 207 - Introduction to Mountainous if correctly identify why I voted for you.

also I didn't have an answer for why u voted me

You seem more interested in buddying me than solving me.

I didn't want any bad blood between us
and I was gonna wait to solve you because it's not like you'll effect the game state that much which allows me to ignore you
furthermore Mac called you town iirc

There is no bad blood between us, don't worry!

You're right that this game I will likely have little effect on the gamestate because I am not processing enough to assert myself.

I am still wary of your intentions.

[robyn]

i'm usually quite good at identifying when someone has a towny progression and when someone is putting in genuine effort into solving the ppl around them - one of the main ways that i solve games like this is just going through ISOs and going through individual progressions until i notice a pattern or find something that sticks out to me

you often play in a deliberately ambiguous way where it is difficult to track where your head is at in the moment or how you are getting from point A to point B, which makes it difficult for me to judge whether your reads are coming from an authentic place. i think this is probably the most clearly ive seen you express your view of the game in any of the 3 games ive played with you so far

What was your/Lucy's alignments in those three games?

town/town
town/town
this is game 3

@staypositivefriend You're noticing a difference in Lucy's play from when they were town... but you're town reading it? Talk me through that.

i don't consider the difference in lucy's play to be alignment indicative for her in either direction, because she made it clear at the beginning of this game that she is going to attempt to communicate her reads more clearly and focus on communication, and i believe she would attempt to do this as either alignment

i also think it's normal for players who are relatively new to mafia to have their playstyles change/develop a lot over the course of several games

Lucy has been playing for years (I think... at least a while), just on discord, not forum. Does that change your assessment?

not really. i played chat mafia for years before i played forum mafia but it still took me quite a while to develop a forum mafia style that works for me

and ask Mac/Alison how much I've changed since halsoven ridge, seems like a decent argument in itself that I'm changing rapidly

[Lilypetal]

anyone here play ff14

[Seanzie]

also idk if seanzie/creature are teamed anymore after this page lol

can @Seanzie explain what made him change on his creature?

Me claiming to bussy Creature is IMO not good evidence that me/creature aren't aligned, but whatever.

I've been mostly townreading Creature due to a very stark difference between his play here vs when him and I wolved in Reanimators together. This is only a single datum though, so my confidence in that townread is shakable, and I am worried that my "let's go after the bigguns and find the wolf in there, then move on" style of pushing people like Mac/Alison/Boq isn't leading me in the right direction, and probably isn't a good idea when I don't have the time to dedicate to actually hunting in that group. So, instead I'm thinking about giving this whole "sheep"ing thing a try, which is highly against my natural instincts (I am neither a leader or a follower), but, here we are.

[Seanzie]

anyone here play ff14

I play ff1, ff2, ff3, ff4, ff5, ff6, ff7, ff8, ff9, ff10, ff12, ff13 and ff15. I do have a rare internal harddrive installed in my PS2 though, so if I wanted to, I could play (and have played) ff11. No ff14 though...

[Lilypetal]

anyone here play ff14

I play ff1, ff2, ff3, ff4, ff5, ff6, ff7, ff8, ff9, ff10, ff12, ff13 and ff15. I do have a rare internal harddrive installed in my PS2 though, so if I wanted to, I could play (and have played) ff11. No ff14 though...

ff11 is my favorite jank game

[Seanzie]

What was your/Lucy's alignments in those three games?

town/town
town/town
this is game 3

@staypositivefriend You're noticing a difference in Lucy's play from when they were town... but you're town reading it? Talk me through that.

i don't consider the difference in lucy's play to be alignment indicative for her in either direction, because she made it clear at the beginning of this game that she is going to attempt to communicate her reads more clearly and focus on communication, and i believe she would attempt to do this as either alignment

i also think it's normal for players who are relatively new to mafia to have their playstyles change/develop a lot over the course of several games

Lucy has been playing for years (I think... at least a while), just on discord, not forum. Does that change your assessment?

not really. i played chat mafia for years before i played forum mafia but it still took me quite a while to develop a forum mafia style that works for me

and ask Mac/Alison how much I've changed since halsoven ridge, seems like a decent argument in itself that I'm changing rapidly

[robyn]

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

did you read my posts after this @Seanzie

[Seanzie]

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

did you read my posts after this @Seanzie

Oh, yeah I did. The side-by-side I think was what got me to first ask "but what if I am wrong?" even if I wasn't willing to fully entertain the idea at that point.

[MacDougall]

mac are you still confident that creature/seanzie cant be teamed?

Not if you think I shouldn't be.

well i'm not confident that they are, i just find both of them individually wolfy and am struggling to find any compelling reasons to dissociate them

well i stated my reasoning and if they aren't compelling to you then they aren't compelling to you? me just telling you whether i find them compelling or not shouldn't matter if you dont find the reasoning compelling lol

did you read it?

[staypositivefriend]

yeah i did and i didn't find it personally compelling, but if you were at like "bet the game" levels that they weren't partnered, i would probably just trust that you're right and sheep you. i believe in sheeping the reads of strong villagers to help put the pieces of the game together

i find them less likely to be teamed now anyway though

[MacDougall]

I am most certainly not betting the game on that tiny little minutiae but I also never would haha

[robyn]

I feel like ik who the NK will be

[robyn]

if I'm correct I know one scum 100%

[robyn]

but since I am talking to you three scum directly, I will not say who I think it is and you have to gauge if I'm bluffing or not

[Lilypetal]

I feel like ik who the NK will be

me too

[staypositivefriend]

u can just say that it will be me

[Seanzie]

but since I am talking to you three scum directly, I will not say who I think it is and you have to gauge if I'm bluffing or not

I mean, I'm planning to kill SPF after I bus Creature.

[robyn]

u can just say that it will be me

it's never you

[MacDougall]

Super secret heavily tilting reads inside don't read if you're SPF

Spoiler: show

If Alison and Creature are mafia SPF is always the third because they would be the player that has had the most energy consumed by both Alison and Creature in antispew lol.

Also Arogame is massively trend down and SPF's read on them is weird and I don't like it.

Lucy is the mayor if I die nobody else.

Seanzie and Rondo are obvious townies at this point.

[staypositivefriend]

[Seanzie]

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

[staypositivefriend]

Super secret heavily tilting reads inside don't read if you're SPF

Spoiler: show

If Alison and Creature are mafia SPF is always the third because they would be the player that has had the most energy consumed by both Alison and Creature in antispew lol.

Also Arogame is massively trend down and SPF's read on them is weird and I don't like it.

Lucy is the mayor if I die nobody else.

Seanzie and Rondo are obvious townies at this point.

there are so many things that i hate about this post but i will refrain from choosing violence today and go do something else instead

[Lilypetal]

i don't think spf's read on aro is bad. aro is playing quite the opposite from how he played C v D for example which imo is a fine reason to town read him. I had reservations abt him cuz of his handling of me but I think he's solvy, seems like he's hunting for alignments, and isn't being as pockety as when he's wolfing.

[robyn]

Super secret heavily tilting reads inside don't read if you're SPF

Spoiler: show

If Alison and Creature are mafia SPF is always the third because they would be the player that has had the most energy consumed by both Alison and Creature in antispew lol.

Also Arogame is massively trend down and SPF's read on them is weird and I don't like it.

Lucy is the mayor if I die nobody else.

Seanzie and Rondo are obvious townies at this point.

there are so many things that i hate about this post but i will refrain from choosing violence today and go do something else instead

choose violence

[Seanzie]

Super secret heavily tilting reads inside don't read if you're SPF

Spoiler: show

If Alison and Creature are mafia SPF is always the third because they would be the player that has had the most energy consumed by both Alison and Creature in antispew lol.

Also Arogame is massively trend down and SPF's read on them is weird and I don't like it.

Lucy is the mayor if I die nobody else.

Seanzie and Rondo are obvious townies at this point.

I can't wait until I get an opportunity to snow you. (actually... I can... I don't think I'd wolf well if I had as much time as I had for this game... but if I had the time... and opportunity... and the will... and the way...). Either way, your townread of me is generous, to say the least.

[arogame123]

Damn, I have a lot of catching up to do. And I see Creature and Alison tied lol and Alison is self-voting lmao.

Gonna catch up. Ping me if u have any questions.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

[robyn]

Super secret heavily tilting reads inside don't read if you're SPF

Spoiler: show

If Alison and Creature are mafia SPF is always the third because they would be the player that has had the most energy consumed by both Alison and Creature in antispew lol.

Also Arogame is massively trend down and SPF's read on them is weird and I don't like it.

Lucy is the mayor if I die nobody else.

Seanzie and Rondo are obvious townies at this point.

I can't wait until I get an opportunity to snow you. (actually... I can... I don't think I'd wolf well if I had as much time as I had for this game... but if I had the time... and opportunity... and the will... and the way...). Either way, your townread of me is generous, to say the least.

this is like my 6th town rand on TS without pulling mafia once
literally 1984

[Seanzie]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

[arogame123]

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

Hmmm, ok so I joined the discord channel as well to check and it does seem that Creature is a very "optimal wagon" centrist person. He wants to go after the wagons EoD based off this. Fine, that's a playstyle I can empathize.

spf and creature, game theory wise do we Lynch the cw?

We shouldn't restrict our lynch options today. It's not set in stone Alison is wolf and I feel like wolves are skating under the radar while we eat each other.

Maybe you just don't actually realise how bad this is but not killing the counterwagon on day 2 is the number 1 thing that leads to town losing mountainous games. Nothing else comes close.

Perhaps. I just hate giving wolves a free day pass because we have to resolve wagons when TvT wagons are quite common.

Now, this looks a bit worse for Creature as he does not want to resolve day 1 EoD wagons for a couple of things. Not just because of his "mention of the chat above," but he had some suspicions towards Alison's slot around EoD 1 when Alison's wagon started to grow in #1643. They also come into today with some suspicions around ALison/Mac feeling that there is one mafia between the two.

So it seems odd that when Creature has those suspicions towards Alison as well as the way he likes to assess wagons and "be optimal" with the kills, I find it odd he seems wary of Alison in the post you quoted Lucy.

I think this could mean a couple of things:

Either Creature is mafia with Alison, and is attempting to steer a wagon away from them today and push it onto Mac who they were voting earlier and attempting to get some traction.

or, Creature is mafia and Alison is town, and wants to look good from an Alison flip in order to look good. This would allude to ur feelings of TMI, as creature has stated his suspicions towards Alison from EoD1 as well as in day 2. So clearly, Creature was not tr Alison to begin with to prompt those feelings of fear/hedginess he had.

[arogame123]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

[Seanzie]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

Mac's issue is a valid one; you shrugged off catchup work in a claim that you want to play in the moment, and this is in direct contrast to you having spent time reading my games.

If you have time to skim my games, you have time to catch up. Reasonable enough.

I'd like to know more about where I was condescending this game. I don't think I was.

[arogame123]

@arogame123 did you not think Lucy kinda destroyed Creature here? I thought what she dropped near outed him tbh.

Pretty sure I debunked Lucy's whole case on me with facts and logic right here:

Spoiler: show

Like we're probably either in a universe where:

Alison is mafia with whoever the fuck
or
Neon/Lily are mafia and their whole agenda in this game is just pocket and try to coast

I feel like almost everybody with the exception of Creature and SPF are relatively suspicious of Alison at this point? (If you aren't then vocalise it).

I feel like almost nobody EXCEPT Creature/Alison/SPF is suspicious of Neon or Lily?

@RondoDimBuckle can you come play or something.

@lucy what's your gamestate?

459AB5B5-C7A4-4B20-BA83-8DBCB3145DD3.jpeg

spf and creature, game theory wise do we Lynch the cw?

We shouldn't restrict our lynch options today. It's not set in stone Alison is wolf and I feel like wolves are skating under the radar while we eat each other.

Maybe you just don't actually realise how bad this is but not killing the counterwagon on day 2 is the number 1 thing that leads to town losing mountainous games. Nothing else comes close.

Perhaps. I just hate giving wolves a free day pass because we have to resolve wagons when TvT wagons are quite common.

I'm still right. When two players end up being final wagons D1 and one of them gets flipped town, the other is bound to get resolved sooner or later. I just disagree they should be resolved instantly.

Like, in that game you're referencing at some poijt the wagons were you (wolf) v Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town). Eventually your wagon collapsed into a Chaos (town) v Vanta Black (town) final thunderdome. Vanta Black ended up lynched that day and Chaos was poisoned the next night, while you got a pass all the way to endgame.

I'm concerned the same thing could've happened with Porscha (wolf) v Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town): the Porscha wagon collapsed into an Alison (town) v falcon45ca (town) final thunderdome where we lynched falcon45caand now we're resolving Alison while Porscha gets away.

Lilypetal's play here feels bizarre from a wolf perspective. Though sometimes I still get bothered that I'm noy used to Lilypetal playing like this. I wonder if it's Syndicate's behavior altering elixir in action.

Hmmm

I guess my lucy townread had to do with her actions not making sense from wolf, like claiming VT right out of the gate. I also kinda agreed when someone said her reactions felt genuinely frustrated town.

These two posts are remarkably similar lol.

Pretty sure my townread on Lilypetal is structured a lot differently than my lucy townread on the other game. Here I expressed the reason why I townread Lilypetal and also pointed something I was concerned about her. That other game I only listed reasons to townread lucy without any drawback.

Hell I guess I pushed Lilypetal remorselessly a lot D1 because of her entrance. I feel like I would be inclined to just ignore my partner's entrance or just be quick to drop suspicions about them.

Okay here are some quotes from Creature from this game Lucy has pulled irt how he treats teammates (August this year so very recent, probably Creature's most recent wolfrand).

It's not even close to my most recent wolfrand. I guess I ended up playing fairly suboptimally there because I was alting and the deadlines were so long I often got bored.

My most recent non-mash wolfrand was Something Simple which had a 48/24 deadline format just like this game. If you're suspecting Alison and I are partnered this game is an even better comparison because I was wolfing with Alice Liddell and I deem both Alison and Alice to be strong (wolf) players so you can just compare my treatment of them.

Also I remember Alison was very frustrated at Twice Shrunk for burning all his towncred to defend her in the Spec Chat game. If we were wolf partners I feel like I've been defending her so much she'd want to marry Twice Shrunk after this game.

mac, don’t go off his play around me, i was mafia poisoned and wagon d1
he tried to and successfully spewed me town
his play would logically be different this game in compared to around me that game

There's this too. I feel like I would've prob bussed lucy that game if lucy wasn't the wolf's strongest role by far.

I ended up making shit up so I could save lucy and I knew that would probably make me look bad. I ended up just taking advantage of town unaligning lucy and me because I defended her vehemently.

Also I ended up pushing my other two partners a lot trying to spew them town when lucy and I both eventually were lynched.

Ok, so I read some of your rebuttals here. And I guess one of my questions is, you were sr Alison a bit from EoD and came into today with a Mac/Alison POE. So with that being in the case, is there a reason you were so against killing Alison and demonstrating warines around her slot? It felt like you did something similar around her EoD1. Additionally, if you feel like it could be t!Alison and w!Porscha, killing Alison would also resolve that issue as well as the wagons.

I will say though, I originally brought up the potential case you are defending Alison, and though it's not as blatant as twice was, I will give you that point that Alison would not want to be defended as hard as she was like Twice esp since that game was very recent. It would make sense you would bus her today if Alison is mafia considering the heat she was going to receive to being a cw to a townie.

[arogame123]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

Mac's issue is a valid one; you shrugged off catchup work in a claim that you want to play in the moment, and this is in direct contrast to you having spent time reading my games.

If you have time to skim my games, you have time to catch up. Reasonable enough.

I'd like to know more about where I was condescending this game. I don't think I was.

Wait, first of all, I was busy irl and was at work lol. And so I only had some time to chat with people and discuss real time rather than do catch up in the thread only to not contribute any of my thoughts to the thread. I am literally working 9-5 M-F and don't have the luxury to catch up until night time like I am rn. So that's #1. #2, I read and skimmed ur games during the night phase during my night time. I am in PST fyi.

I skimmed ur games during the night time and not when I was in the thread. So when I come into the thread for a bit during work, I can't afford to catch up with the limited time I have and would rather real time with people to spew my thoughts like I was doing.

I don't see how me reading your games during the night phase at night time when I have time versus me playing/realtime during my work hours is a contrast. I can do both at different times which I did.

And, I guess I am a bit loose with words, but when I mean condescending, I mean more so egging on, kinda like what u were doing in EoD with ur tone when u went "Oooh yes, vote me for town cred" or something like that. I can't remember the specific game, but I can try to peruse through that large list to pull it out again if you'd like lol

[arogame123]

Essentially, I read your games at a different time than when I was in the thread lol.

At work, I can only real-time to spew my thoughts with my limited time, because if I go read and catch up, I lose the time I have to contribute to the thread. So I have to wait to night time to fully re-read and process everything and then contribute my thoughts.

I read your games at a different time like I mentioned.

[arogame123]

D3 Creature -> Porscha -> Rondo -> SPF ends the game, either immediately or the day after when the third wolf is outed by those flips.

Unless I am calculating wrong this is auto even if there are only two wolves in the first four.

IF I AM EVER LYNCHED THIS GAME MAC SHOULD ALWAYS BE LYNCHED NEXT IF HE'S STILL ALIVE

HIS PUSHES HAVE BEEN PRETTY BAD-FAITH SO FAR AND I FEEL LIKE HE'S JUST FULL OF SHIT ESPECIALLY IF ALL OF FALCON, ALISON AND ME ARE TOWN

I will say, I was just realtiming a bit while catching up, and if Mac does push and sr me for the realtime versus when I read content because of my worklife and when I am able to play the game properly, I will keep this in mind.

I think I am a bit frustrated with that, but in contrast, I look at everything else he has done and his conversation with Alison and his tone and aggresiveness is pretty townie rom my perpsective and matches with the Mac town meta from the mash game I recently played with him. Additionally, the way he was pushing on Alison with some of the evidence including "the discord thing" is something that I don't really see coming from a mafia tbh.

[Porscha]

Also, playing league at the same time so might be a bit slow lmfao.

And I wanted to ask you Porscha, do you mainly sr Alison for Omgus or mainly her playstyle and the way she approaches the game?

Rn I had Alison and Porscha as the people I wanted to kill the most coming into today, but I feel like their interactions with each other from EoD to today is likely not w/w.

So I feel I need to look outside that and potentially evaluate my nulls further.

I felt form alison/mac argument, it was never w/w. I tr'd mac from it. at best it was t/t, at worst it was w/t.
at best, alison is tunneling on me for my playstyle and my inability to sit at pc and iso and type longer + more specific responses that she prefers. but it isn't malicious - it's her just tunneling again.
at worst, she thought I was someone she could ML and say it was because I wasn't up to her standard and deserved to die anyway. "I was not wrong on Porscha, I read her objectively. And objectively, she played scummy." and then get away with ML'ing me without repercussion.

Which it is, I don't know.

hmmm, I can agree with u on the first part of what u said and that alison/mac are not w/w.

But also, with that in mind, I assume it's more so u think that Alison is pushing u in bad faith due to ur "inability to play the game." Unfortunately, I have seen Alison make pushes like that on many people in the past as she attempts to make the "optimal play."

With that in mind though, what were your thoughts on Alison attempting to spearhead the wagon on you from Falcon as Alison was tr Falcon?

That to me was weird that Alison tr Falcon, Alison sr you, Falcon sr Alison, and you sr Alison. It was like a weird circle/triangle lol

are you saying alison voted me to save falcon because she tr'd him?

Well I know Alison was tr Falcon and sr you harder, so they tried to wagon you over falcon, and voted falcon in the late stages of EOD to self pres. so yes, I wanted your thoughts on that.

in my mind if her vote is self pres then... it's harder to look into anything past that. I don't know if she is wolfing this game.

In catch up rn, and i've seen creature push the idea he is worried that alison is town and he / falcon were town, so i'm the wolf who got off the hook. but the wolf could be alison and he doesn't consider this world, presumably b/c he tr's alison. ultimately, from my pov, me / falcon / and maybe even alison could have been all town wagons.

[Porscha]

I don't think the mafia triple stacked. They had no incentive to do anything except sit back and eat popcorn when the wagons narrowed to Alison/Falcon. Also I cannot find any reasonable combination of 3 people that all voted the same wagon and also would kill Jack.

2 on one wagon, 1 on the other. My wagon is way scummier and it also benefits mafia more to kill me D1, so my best guess is that there's 2 on me and 1 on Falcon.

why was your wagon way scummier than falcons?

[arogame123]

okay, i'm finally caught up with the thread. i got a million pings while i was gone and i don't have time to individually answer each of them, but i will make a longer post shortly outlining my general view of the game/my current POE, and the specific strategy that we should follow to win the game even in the event where i'm wrong about everything and unintentionally wolfsiding

a couple of things to note first, though:

-i think the biggest developments from my catch-up is that my read on lucy went from null to townlean and my read on lily went from "townlean" to "almost 100% town". @MacDougall @arogame123 @lucy -i'm hard veto'ing any votes or pushes on lucy until LYLO at the very minimum, because i think she is the most blatantly town poster in the game so far barring mac, and there are specific tells that she did over the last few pages that i perceive as being very likely to be outside of her wolfrange (such as the way she reacted to alison asking her to chain her vote to lucy)

-as for lucy, my read on her existed in a nebelous uncertain state because i thought most of her posts were non-descript and not particularly alignment indicative, but she got a lot townier as soon as she started pushing on creature using his previous meta, and i would be mildly impressed if that catch is something that she would be able to pick up on as a wolf. if creature is a wolf then i'm tempted to say that it's probably lock clearing for her

@MacDougall - are you sure that seanzie/creature can't be W/W? if you're willing to bet the game on it, then i'll sheep you, but i was tinfoiling a world where they are partnered last night and i think it makes a reasonable amount of sense. seanzie has had a vested interest in shielding creature from pressure and creature has actively avoided pushing on seanzie, and i think a world where the two of them are wolves could make sense in a world where the wolves are powerwolfing and trying to push through a bad POE, especially if we live in a world where alison is town

@arogame123 - i have a major bone to pick with you about your read on lily, and i felt like you were almost purposefully going out of your way to misunderstand her on page 47. what is the wolf motivation for her choosing to vote outside of falcon and alison yesterday? what does she strategically gain from doing that as a wolf? i feel like you are characterizing her behavior as wolfy in the most surface level possible way without digging deeper into the intent, and your view on lily being so directly the opposite of mine is my biggest concern about you right now

I am assuming you meant you are hard vetoi'ng any kills against Lilly till Lylo?

Anyways, as far as my concerns with Lily were both the anti-town vote off wagon and her claim to sheep and then to vote off wagon, and then also if she had Falcon as obv town, I was wondering why she didn't attempt to save him.
Those were the initial problems/issues I had with Lily's EoD that I described in her posts, and I was not mischaracterizing her behavior.

In fact, I did acknowledge that in a V/V wagon world, Lily's vote to move off wagon wouldn't make as much sense, AND I even brought up my own Champs experience to double down on that fact that Liky's movement their with the wagons at EoD is unlikely esp in a V/V world.

SEcondly, I did attempt to empathize and understand where Lily was coming from. I realized that from her POV, she felt Falcon became obv town and was against Alison bc of the sheep from u and Mac, so she felt in a very off place and voted off wagons bc she didn't want Falcon to die and didn't want to vote Alison either. So those were the parts that I was like hmmm, ok, I guess I can see the movement with the vote there from Lily's perspective. Afterwards, I rose Lily a bit higher up from my POE and more into the nulls-ish category.

And if you are so confident in that read, I might likely sponge that read from you, because I don't think you would be so over confident about a read if you didn't believe she was town.

But I clearly stated the issues I had and clearly asked her as I was attempting to understand her viewpoint.

I think with Lucy, I moved her up to a slight tr because I think her case on Creature was pretty townie and demonstrated some of the inconsistencies with Creature's approach to today versus his prior. The way he treated Alison and how she was a wagon was a good catch from Lucy and I liked that from her.

Perhaps we can talk more about Seanzie, Creature, Nanook, Neon, and Porscha when you get on?

What do u think of Creature basically tinfoiling majority of his tr that he had yesterday after day 1?

[arogame123]

also, yes, i still think that alison is town. if i'm wrong and wolfsiding by accident, then whatever, i can accept that. i think there is a high likeliehood that creature has spewed alison as town based on the way he has spoken about her throughout the last few pages, and i also do not see any self-preservation intent in the way that alison is attempting to play today. in fact, i've only seen her give up and admit defeat as a villager before, even though i'm sure it is something that is plausibly within her wolfrange

the only concern i have about alison is that she's pushing a POE (ie: me/porscha) that seems potentially wolfsided, but even then, i don't feel the wolf motivation behind her pushes and think it is mroe likely she is a villager with an upside down view of the game

I was gonna ask you SPF, I posted earlier that what Alison was doing reminded me of what she did in C v D. By chance, do you know if Alison has done this before as mafia?

Admittedly, the only other townie thing I saw from Alison was her approach to EoD1 where she wanted to kill her mafia read and try to take the wagon off Falcon despite Falcon sr her. And she only self-pressed till the very last moment. But other than that, I didn't like Alison's day 1 and how she became jovenile towards Neon after the initial sr only to put her in POE again, which from her perspective, I can understand. But it did remind me of what u were saying about Alison as mafia in the SCI game where Alison likes to be a bit more jovenile and friendly towards certain slots to appeal to them.

[arogame123]

omg WHY do i keep mixing up the names "lily" and "lucy" in my head? i think it's because they both start with L and my brain just fills in the blanks with whoever comes to mind first

yeah, the second paragraph is about lily and the 3rd paragraph is about lucy

Take this... L hehe

[Seanzie]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

Mac's issue is a valid one; you shrugged off catchup work in a claim that you want to play in the moment, and this is in direct contrast to you having spent time reading my games.

If you have time to skim my games, you have time to catch up. Reasonable enough.

I'd like to know more about where I was condescending this game. I don't think I was.

Wait, first of all, I was busy irl and was at work lol. And so I only had some time to chat with people and discuss real time rather than do catch up in the thread only to not contribute any of my thoughts to the thread. I am literally working 9-5 M-F and don't have the luxury to catch up until night time like I am rn. So that's #1. #2, I read and skimmed ur games during the night phase during my night time. I am in PST fyi.

I skimmed ur games during the night time and not when I was in the thread. So when I come into the thread for a bit during work, I can't afford to catch up with the limited time I have and would rather real time with people to spew my thoughts like I was doing.

I don't see how me reading your games during the night phase at night time when I have time versus me playing/realtime during my work hours is a contrast. I can do both at different times which I did.

And, I guess I am a bit loose with words, but when I mean condescending, I mean more so egging on, kinda like what u were doing in EoD with ur tone when u went "Oooh yes, vote me for town cred" or something like that. I can't remember the specific game, but I can try to peruse through that large list to pull it out again if you'd like lol

How worried are you about your current thread positioning?

Also, since you're offering, yeah, can you pull that? I'd like to see past me compared to current me.

[arogame123]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

Mac's issue is a valid one; you shrugged off catchup work in a claim that you want to play in the moment, and this is in direct contrast to you having spent time reading my games.

If you have time to skim my games, you have time to catch up. Reasonable enough.

I'd like to know more about where I was condescending this game. I don't think I was.

Wait, first of all, I was busy irl and was at work lol. And so I only had some time to chat with people and discuss real time rather than do catch up in the thread only to not contribute any of my thoughts to the thread. I am literally working 9-5 M-F and don't have the luxury to catch up until night time like I am rn. So that's #1. #2, I read and skimmed ur games during the night phase during my night time. I am in PST fyi.

I skimmed ur games during the night time and not when I was in the thread. So when I come into the thread for a bit during work, I can't afford to catch up with the limited time I have and would rather real time with people to spew my thoughts like I was doing.

I don't see how me reading your games during the night phase at night time when I have time versus me playing/realtime during my work hours is a contrast. I can do both at different times which I did.

And, I guess I am a bit loose with words, but when I mean condescending, I mean more so egging on, kinda like what u were doing in EoD with ur tone when u went "Oooh yes, vote me for town cred" or something like that. I can't remember the specific game, but I can try to peruse through that large list to pull it out again if you'd like lol

How worried are you about your current thread positioning?

Also, since you're offering, yeah, can you pull that? I'd like to see past me compared to current me.

Uhhh, idrc about my thread positioning tbh. I mean it's nice to be town read and I can be put in a position where I can comfortably form a town core and push who I believe are wolves without having to defend myself 24/7 as I was having to do in my champs games lol.

And yea, I'll do it once I finish this whole catch up and what not.

While I have you here, what's ur current game state looking like?

[Seanzie]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

Mac's issue is a valid one; you shrugged off catchup work in a claim that you want to play in the moment, and this is in direct contrast to you having spent time reading my games.

If you have time to skim my games, you have time to catch up. Reasonable enough.

I'd like to know more about where I was condescending this game. I don't think I was.

Wait, first of all, I was busy irl and was at work lol. And so I only had some time to chat with people and discuss real time rather than do catch up in the thread only to not contribute any of my thoughts to the thread. I am literally working 9-5 M-F and don't have the luxury to catch up until night time like I am rn. So that's #1. #2, I read and skimmed ur games during the night phase during my night time. I am in PST fyi.

I skimmed ur games during the night time and not when I was in the thread. So when I come into the thread for a bit during work, I can't afford to catch up with the limited time I have and would rather real time with people to spew my thoughts like I was doing.

I don't see how me reading your games during the night phase at night time when I have time versus me playing/realtime during my work hours is a contrast. I can do both at different times which I did.

And, I guess I am a bit loose with words, but when I mean condescending, I mean more so egging on, kinda like what u were doing in EoD with ur tone when u went "Oooh yes, vote me for town cred" or something like that. I can't remember the specific game, but I can try to peruse through that large list to pull it out again if you'd like lol

How worried are you about your current thread positioning?

Also, since you're offering, yeah, can you pull that? I'd like to see past me compared to current me.

Actually, only answer the second part if you want to. I'm more curious about the first answer and I don't want to bog you down.

[Seanzie]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

Mac's issue is a valid one; you shrugged off catchup work in a claim that you want to play in the moment, and this is in direct contrast to you having spent time reading my games.

If you have time to skim my games, you have time to catch up. Reasonable enough.

I'd like to know more about where I was condescending this game. I don't think I was.

Wait, first of all, I was busy irl and was at work lol. And so I only had some time to chat with people and discuss real time rather than do catch up in the thread only to not contribute any of my thoughts to the thread. I am literally working 9-5 M-F and don't have the luxury to catch up until night time like I am rn. So that's #1. #2, I read and skimmed ur games during the night phase during my night time. I am in PST fyi.

I skimmed ur games during the night time and not when I was in the thread. So when I come into the thread for a bit during work, I can't afford to catch up with the limited time I have and would rather real time with people to spew my thoughts like I was doing.

I don't see how me reading your games during the night phase at night time when I have time versus me playing/realtime during my work hours is a contrast. I can do both at different times which I did.

And, I guess I am a bit loose with words, but when I mean condescending, I mean more so egging on, kinda like what u were doing in EoD with ur tone when u went "Oooh yes, vote me for town cred" or something like that. I can't remember the specific game, but I can try to peruse through that large list to pull it out again if you'd like lol

How worried are you about your current thread positioning?

Also, since you're offering, yeah, can you pull that? I'd like to see past me compared to current me.

Uhhh, idrc about my thread positioning tbh. I mean it's nice to be town read and I can be put in a position where I can comfortably form a town core and push who I believe are wolves without having to defend myself 24/7 as I was having to do in my champs games lol.

And yea, I'll do it once I finish this whole catch up and what not.

While I have you here, what's ur current game state looking like?

You feel panicky...

[arogame123]

Also SPF why are you going after arogame for hammering Lily about her EOD1 vote when I did the exact same thing and you called me town?

the main difference is that you changed your mind about lily and arogame did not

You are clearly not reading my posts then SPF... I said I moved up Lily a bit from POE to conflicted/null read and I made that explicit.

Now it feels like you are either misinterpreting or misreading my posts and idk how that makes me feel.

[arogame123]

Also like Aro made a post about actually having read the games I posted, and Mac made a post about how that didn't sit with other things...

I thought about responding but I was trying to catch up so I didn't. Since it is back in discussion though, I specificallu poked Aro to ask if they had read the games of mine they asked for (light implication of a busy bee), so I don't think it is that strange that they would have, in response to me, done a dive into my games even if they usually wouldn't do a lot of ISOing.

yea, I was somewhat busy yesterday and I did read up on your games a bit during the night and explained the meta/things I saw from ur town and mafia games.

I disagreed with SPF's initial feelings that u would be "powerwolfing" since when I checked ur mafia games, you didn't come off as a powerwolfer to me and more of a laid back mafia person.

What's Mac's issue here exactly? Do you agree with the summary/meta I was describing about your play?

Mac's issue is a valid one; you shrugged off catchup work in a claim that you want to play in the moment, and this is in direct contrast to you having spent time reading my games.

If you have time to skim my games, you have time to catch up. Reasonable enough.

I'd like to know more about where I was condescending this game. I don't think I was.

Wait, first of all, I was busy irl and was at work lol. And so I only had some time to chat with people and discuss real time rather than do catch up in the thread only to not contribute any of my thoughts to the thread. I am literally working 9-5 M-F and don't have the luxury to catch up until night time like I am rn. So that's #1. #2, I read and skimmed ur games during the night phase during my night time. I am in PST fyi.

I skimmed ur games during the night time and not when I was in the thread. So when I come into the thread for a bit during work, I can't afford to catch up with the limited time I have and would rather real time with people to spew my thoughts like I was doing.

I don't see how me reading your games during the night phase at night time when I have time versus me playing/realtime during my work hours is a contrast. I can do both at different times which I did.

And, I guess I am a bit loose with words, but when I mean condescending, I mean more so egging on, kinda like what u were doing in EoD with ur tone when u went "Oooh yes, vote me for town cred" or something like that. I can't remember the specific game, but I can try to peruse through that large list to pull it out again if you'd like lol

How worried are you about your current thread positioning?

Also, since you're offering, yeah, can you pull that? I'd like to see past me compared to current me.

Actually, only answer the second part if you want to. I'm more curious about the first answer and I don't want to bog you down.

kk thanks