Watchmen [ENDGAME]

[LoRab]

LoRab - Hasn't been really into the game since D4, when she mostly focused on defending herself and getting herself out of being lynched. I don't remember hearing a suspect from her apart from G-Man the first three days. Oh, you prefer sticking with your leads, rather than being in the loop with others? "Frankly dear..." No change from what I already wrote about her. I'm sorry, but just like with Eloh (even if she was good), you will seriously have to tell how am I supposed to trust LoRab. I'm feeling she's completely detached from the main events and it only makes me more wary. I wouldn't mind voting her today.

Please don't make assumptions about how attached/into the game I am--or attached/into anything for that matter. That is not fair to do to anyone else, for one thing, and it also simply isn't true.

My job takes precedence over a game. Friday night and Saturday morning tend to be times that I'm working and have absolutely no access to games. Friday day usually has a lot of prep. So, that I haven't posted a lot during that time frame means that I haven't had a lot of time to post. Not that I'm not following the game.

And yes, I tend to think my own thoughts and march to my own drummer. In life, as well as in mafia games. Reading what other people thinking--yes, I sometimes agree and other times don't. Of course it informs my own thinking. But, for the most part, I reach my own conclusions. It's how I play--it's how I've always played. Not knowing what anyone else's alledience or motivation is, I tend to trust my own reads more than necessarily more than others.

And you shouldn't trust me. You hsouldn't trust anyone. But I am not at all detached. I haven't had anything to add to the conversations when I've been on (especially on the days when I've had to catch up on a lot of reading, so anything I'd have said had already been said).

But you also shouldn't lynch me, because I'm not bad. Give me something to defend against other than, "She plays different than I see other people play" and I'm happy to defend. But don't tell me I'm not into the game and I haven't posted the things you expect me to say and therefore is detatched. That's just not true and, frankly, it's insulting.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

DDL - no improvement from previous read, in fact I actually feel worse about him. He ended up D4 calling MP scum and ISO'd the hell out of him on N4, but the next Day it all kinda vanished. He acknowledge a bit of his ISO was inaccurate, but was that really enough to take the pedal off him? I don't think it was ever clear, if so. States several times - in real time with MP's case on Eloh, furthermore - that he doesn't find Elo to be Big Figure, only to return and find MP's and Scotty's arguments convincing. Nothing inherently bad with that, since I myself found some of those angles interesting indeed (plus Eloh's whole gameplay truly awful), but this feels too flexible and non-committal, compared to the DDL that hunted and challenged hard on his own. (Golden, D2; DH, D3; MP, D4) I don't like this. Considering a vote for DDL today.

Alright, my vanishing from this game the past few days can be explained by my decision of playing two big games at once, and the burnout I had because of that. My head was literally hurting from too much mafia friday night, and yesterday I took a break. This is my fault, but it doesn't mean I'm bad. That said, I'm now a dead man walking in the other game (I survived the lynch because of abilities but they're gonna lynch me again), so now I'll be able to dedicate my attention to this one.

My D5 was probably the sloppiest thing that I did in this game. I had a feeling MP and Scotty were on to something there, but they weren't, and I was stupid for tunneling on that. I believed Eloh could be Moloch, and I decided to confirm that, and I guess my theory that Eloh could have bussed both of her teammates (and thus also being possibly Big Figure) was a case of confirmation bias. I wanted to believe Eloh was mafia, and when Scotty and MP gave me a reason for it, I elaborated on it myself and used it to justify a vote.

From now on, I'm gonna vote based on my own suspicions, and screw everyone else.

That said, I think Eloh's silencing last phase was intentional, and might have been a strategy to pull an easy lynch on a player who otherwise could have saved herself from the lynch. Although I don't blame anyone but myself for my own vote, I could see that being an intentional play by either MP or Scotty. For instance, it's interesting how MP picked the very phase Eloh got silenced to tunnel on her, also changing the playstyle he had kept for most of the game. Though yes, they could have legitimately fell for the trap while the silencer was staying in the sidelines watching everything. Actually, I'm almost sure that's what happened to either MP or Scotty, though it could also have happened to both.

I finally finished catching up, and now I'm gonna look at some ISOs and post a list of suspects. Stay tuned.

[LoRab]

Re: no death. It's also possible that someone missed sending a PM.

While it's hard to believe that a mafia member would do this, I've seen it happen. By mistake and on purpose, for that matter. But, in this case, I wonder if Tiny Bubbles is Big Figure (which would also be ironic) and wasn't around to make the kill, having not posted since mid-Day 5. Perhaps through trying to catch up, s/he missed sending in the post.

[Ricochet]

LoRab - Hasn't been really into the game since D4, when she mostly focused on defending herself and getting herself out of being lynched. I don't remember hearing a suspect from her apart from G-Man the first three days. Oh, you prefer sticking with your leads, rather than being in the loop with others? "Frankly dear..." No change from what I already wrote about her. I'm sorry, but just like with Eloh (even if she was good), you will seriously have to tell how am I supposed to trust LoRab. I'm feeling she's completely detached from the main events and it only makes me more wary. I wouldn't mind voting her today.

Please don't make assumptions about how attached/into the game I am--or attached/into anything for that matter. That is not fair to do to anyone else, for one thing, and it also simply isn't true.

My job takes precedence over a game. Friday night and Saturday morning tend to be times that I'm working and have absolutely no access to games. Friday day usually has a lot of prep. So, that I haven't posted a lot during that time frame means that I haven't had a lot of time to post. Not that I'm not following the game.

And yes, I tend to think my own thoughts and march to my own drummer. In life, as well as in mafia games. Reading what other people thinking--yes, I sometimes agree and other times don't. Of course it informs my own thinking. But, for the most part, I reach my own conclusions. It's how I play--it's how I've always played. Not knowing what anyone else's alledience or motivation is, I tend to trust my own reads more than necessarily more than others.

And you shouldn't trust me. You hsouldn't trust anyone. But I am not at all detached. I haven't had anything to add to the conversations when I've been on (especially on the days when I've had to catch up on a lot of reading, so anything I'd have said had already been said).

But you also shouldn't lynch me, because I'm not bad. Give me something to defend against other than, "She plays different than I see other people play" and I'm happy to defend. But don't tell me I'm not into the game and I haven't posted the things you expect me to say and therefore is detatched. That's just not true and, frankly, it's insulting.

[I lost the first edit of this post due to internet connection.]

I don't think I see where I've made assumptions. "Into the game" means involved, present, active. Your drop in activity since D4 is pretty much factual, so I fail to see what is "not fair" and "simply not true" about pointing this out. I also said TinyBubbles didn't pitch in at all so far - I wonder if she'll also come and say it's unfair of me or "insulting" to "assume" that.

I made no criticism of your RL reasons. I missed a Day myself for RL reasons! Have you met this player named Epignosis, who usually gives no damn about invoking RL reasons being pertinent whilst playing Mafia? There is nothing inherently wrong with such a hiatus for me, but that still doesn't mean I had much of anything to work with since D4 in evaluating you. Again, pure facts.

What I don't see is you disputing the fact that you haven't brought any suspects except your initial ones in the evolution of this(/your) game. There is one big post, written as rebuttal, where you reference pings on MM, Cookie and espers. If there are other instances of "informing your own thinking" through reading what other people's thoughts and "reaching conclusions", please point them out, because it must mean I got lost swimming through content that is mostly just "case on G-Man", "<<case>> on Golden" and rebuttals.

Detached (with the main events, I must add - don't water it down to me having said you are detached completely) means not tangential with the evolution of the game. I see no sign of your own thoughts and conclusion influencing others - in fact, it has mostly caused cause for suspicion, and I certainly wasn't alone in feeling this way. You say "I haven't had anything to add to the conversations when I've been on". Simply question, then: why? Saying that "anything I'd have said had already been said" is, again, something inconcrete that myself, as a fellow player, cannot work with (reflect upon, evaluate). Cookie also got criticism for it, as well.

"Don't trust anyone" is a vague advice and it was clearly not what I meant. I'm well aware of what game of deception I'm joining, every single time I do it. I'm personally feeling more than in any game I've played so far that I can't clear too many players left in this one as civs, despite the paradox of there being only two baddies left to hunt down. Trustworthiness relates to feeling that whatever the MO of that player is, you can attribute it to a civ role. What I was referencing, moreover, was a couple of players claiming what they're seeing in your gameplay is the usual style, as well as one not indicative of you being a baddie/warranting suspicions, to which I am simply lost in finding it the same way.

I did neither imply that I suspect you for "playing differently" or for not posting what "I'd expect" you to say. As for defending, I feel I've said my share and you've defended each time. I can't say I feel better afterwards, but that's that. I'll be more than sorry, if you flip civ during the game or are revealed as such after endgame, that we got off to the wrong start in playing together.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

So I did a quick skim on G-Man's posts.

Well G-Man is a weird guy. He's funny, he likes to fluff, he changes his style every game for absolutely no reason, so it's hard to read him. There isn't a pattern he keeps following for the whole game, and it seems we have a different G-Man for every day.

Day 0 was one where G-Man spent discussing game mechanics, and joking about voting Golden.

Day 1 he makes the statement that made the entire thread jump on him because of the possibility of a LD fooling, then disappeared for RL reasons and missed the vote.

D2 he spends the entire day quoting old posts and talking about them instead of focusing on D2, then throws an useless vote just to survive from Rorschrach.

D3 he starts doing the technicolor analysis, and does a very through read of every player by the way they voted, but when he could arrive a a logical conclusion and make a vote, he opts for simply saving DH. He does vote espers as a critical moment though, which I believe almost excludes him as a Big Figure suspect.

D4 he shows up with that 6-player list, and spends the day arguing about the list itself, and demanding questions from the players he put on it, while sounding ominous and saying he will execute the one who fails to defend themselves. At the end of the day he fulfills the promise and votes MM, though that vote is completely useless.

D5 is spent arguing with MP about Elohcin. At the end he concludes MP = scum, and votes him.

Now, if there is one pattern I'm seeing here, is that G-Man seems to be playing a different game than the rest of us. He looks detached, just like people think LoRab looks deetatched (sorry if we're insulting you LoRab, but we are hunting mafia and we got to consider every possibility). But while LoRab looks detatched on a very obvious and sloppy way, G-Man feels calculated. He is trying to look like he is contributive, by doing technicolors, huge walls of text, and applying different methods to solving the game every day. But it's like he is wasting a ton of effort and time by pusuing directions which seem dubious at best, and I think that could be intentional.

If I had to guess, I'd say G-Man is my strongest suspect for Moloch right now. An anti-civ independent who needs to avoid suspicion while not really contributing to the game, while waiting for the time to make his big entrance and do whatever Moloch is trying to do in this game.

[Ricochet]

DDL - no improvement from previous read, in fact I actually feel worse about him. He ended up D4 calling MP scum and ISO'd the hell out of him on N4, but the next Day it all kinda vanished. He acknowledge a bit of his ISO was inaccurate, but was that really enough to take the pedal off him? I don't think it was ever clear, if so. States several times - in real time with MP's case on Eloh, furthermore - that he doesn't find Elo to be Big Figure, only to return and find MP's and Scotty's arguments convincing. Nothing inherently bad with that, since I myself found some of those angles interesting indeed (plus Eloh's whole gameplay truly awful), but this feels too flexible and non-committal, compared to the DDL that hunted and challenged hard on his own. (Golden, D2; DH, D3; MP, D4) I don't like this. Considering a vote for DDL today.

Alright, my vanishing from this game the past few days can be explained by my decision of playing two big games at once, and the burnout I had because of that. My head was literally hurting from too much mafia friday night, and yesterday I took a break. This is my fault, but it doesn't mean I'm bad. That said, I'm now a dead man walking in the other game (I survived the lynch because of abilities but they're gonna lynch me again), so now I'll be able to dedicate my attention to this one.

My D5 was probably the sloppiest thing that I did in this game. I had a feeling MP and Scotty were on to something there, but they weren't, and I was stupid for tunneling on that. I believed Eloh could be Moloch, and I decided to confirm that, and I guess my theory that Eloh could have bussed both of her teammates (and thus also being possibly Big Figure) was a case of confirmation bias. I wanted to believe Eloh was mafia, and when Scotty and MP gave me a reason for it, I elaborated on it myself and used it to justify a vote.

From now on, I'm gonna vote based on my own suspicions, and screw everyone else.

That said, I think Eloh's silencing last phase was intentional, and might have been a strategy to pull an easy lynch on a player who otherwise could have saved herself from the lynch. Although I don't blame anyone but myself for my own vote, I could see that being an intentional play by either MP or Scotty. For instance, it's interesting how MP picked the very phase Eloh got silenced to tunnel on her, also changing the playstyle he had kept for most of the game. Though yes, they could have legitimately fell for the trap while the silencer was staying in the sidelines watching everything. Actually, I'm almost sure that's what happened to either MP or Scotty, though it could also have happened to both.

I finally finished catching up, and now I'm gonna look at some ISOs and post a list of suspects. Stay tuned.

Uh, no, not your vanishing as a player, your case's vanishing. (Again, just like LoRab, I don't criticize players for "vanishing".) It felt to me like as soon as MP pointed out some inaccuracies about your ISO and you agreed it invalidates a few stuff and said you'll recheck it, it ended up nowhere. You simply said it didn't invalidate the rest of your case and you're keeping him in check. To which my question, if you've called him Mafia a Day before and made ISO hardly invalidating this conclusion, why the downgrade to "still a suspect"?

You make some fair points about having referenced Eloh as potential Moloch but not Big Figure, so I'll look back over your posts, although I'd still say your vote post and reasoning was based on her actually being Big Figure and bussing both her teammates. I didn't get the "maybe Elo is Moloch and I'm fine with that too" impression from that particular post, only from your explanations right now, which is of course a bit in retrospect.

[Ricochet]

MM has been silenced, he's applying the Roxy method of posting in every other section to signal this.

[LoRab]

Into the games means interested and posting as much as one can. Your post seemed to imply that I was blowing the game off and just wasn't into it any more. Did I misunderstand?

And, really, when I am working, I never post as much Fridays and generally saturdays. During the school year, also true for Sundays. And I'm not using this as an excuse, but the fact is that there are times when I can post more and times when I cannot. And I don't post for the sake of posting if I don't have anything to say.

I'm not going to list for you every point I've made; I don't really see the point in doing so. I tend to stick to my own thoughts. I'm really stubborn about my thinking. I don't bring up cases against people unless I see something that others haven't seen. Which, come to think of it, I did mention Iko early on, and that being replaced actually made me feel more utzy about him. There, something else I said, if it makes you feel better.

And I've mentioned suspicions when I've had them. I like to play my cars close, so I don't post every single thought I have in the thread. Yes, my big posts have been about G-Man and defending myself. I'm not sure how many times you've had to defend yourself in a game, from day 1, but it gets exhausting, especially as a civ. And especially when the bulk of accusations come down to: you're different than what I'm used to so you must be bad. Which, really, is what most of the accusations against me have boiled down to.

Please don't lecture me as how the game works--I've been playing for a while now, thanks. And the game I play doesn't necessarily seek to convince others of my opinions, rather to explain why I have opinions. I don't take part in every conversation, because I don't always have something to add. I don't post for the sake of reading my own words. And, in reading a full day's posts, sometimes a thought I had on an early post that day wasn't relevant by the time I posted. So why say something that is no longer relevant?

You don't like my style of posting. I get it. Or, at least you're not used to it and you find it hard to read. Yes, that's what I go for. I don't want to be a player who is easy to read. And, frankly, if all the posters are easy to read, then the game isn't so interesting to me--there are 2 baddies yet and I'm honestly not sure who they are. And with Watchmen as question marks, to a degree, I could be the actual only civ left, as far as I know (ok, I haven't looked at actual numbers, so that may be an exagerration, but you know what I mean). I'm civ. I really think we need to lynch the big bad this cycle, or at least moloch. I am not either of those. Are you? I don't really suspect you, but I figured I'd ask.

And don't feel bad--and I will be revealed as civ if you lynch me or end game. Either you'll get used to me or you won't. But I don't take that stuff personally. Some of my favorite mafia players are those who are my nemeses. ask me some time how FEB became either a term or a smilie. And my game play is suspicious to a lot of people. Actually one of my tells (and I like sharing my tells, they keep the game more interesting for me) is that if I'm not doing things that are suspicious to people, I'm probably bad. I understand that, but I'm stubborn and like how I play. It also keeps me alive sometimes.

And I didn't mean to get all fist shake-y towards you, but your initial post made it sound like I'm no longer invested, and that's just not true. No hard feelings. But your case against me is still false.

But let's pretend that we all believe that I'm civ. Whom do we think is not?

linkitis: @DDL: Saying I (or anyone) looks detached and saying I'm not into the game are 2 totally different statements. But no worries--I think you make a good point about G-Man. I mean, I've suspected him since day 1, so....

linkitis: @Rico: That last is an interesting point. Someone knew new Eloh wasn't mafia would have been fine thinking only moloch...worth looking into.

[Ricochet]

Into the games means interested and posting as much as one can. Your post seemed to imply that I was blowing the game off and just wasn't into it any more. Did I misunderstand?

Yes.

Please don't lecture me as how the game works--I've been playing for a while now, thanks.

I'm civ. I really think we need to lynch the big bad this cycle, or at least moloch. I am not either of those. Are you? I don't really suspect you, but I figured I'd ask.

I am not.

But let's pretend that we all believe that I'm civ. Whom do we think is not?

Would be nice to hear from you on this matter as well.

[G-Man]

To whoever sent me the ciphered message: thanks for reaching out to me but I cannot figure your message out. Weekends are horrible for me to devote more than 10% of my time to mafia, so I'll try to decode your message if I can find time. Sorry to disappoint you.

[LoRab]

Into the games means interested and posting as much as one can. Your post seemed to imply that I was blowing the game off and just wasn't into it any more. Did I misunderstand?

Yes.

Please don't lecture me as how the game works--I've been playing for a while now, thanks.

I'm civ. I really think we need to lynch the big bad this cycle, or at least moloch. I am not either of those. Are you? I don't really suspect you, but I figured I'd ask.

I am not.

But let's pretend that we all believe that I'm civ. Whom do we think is not?

Would be nice to hear from you on this matter as well.

And I seem to be cranky today, so I apologize.

I still suspect GMan. I think he's more likely Moloch than Big Bad, but my susupicion of him hasn't changed.

Cookie I still think could have been playing the newbie card a big. And, now that s/he (sorry, don't know everyone's gender around here yet) doesn't have anyone to discuss things with, and having been called out in the thread for it, is posting more content and being more confident.

MM I can't help but shake off a suspicious feeling. He (he?) seems to have someone different every day to say, yeah vote for them they're bad, without giving any reason. And then moves on to someone else. And, yes, I've been one of those people, so I admit that colors my thinking, but it doesn't feel right. But maybe Moloch. And, since Epi said something about not liking self-targeting somewhere, could fake being silenced.

MP I really doubt is bad. I don't think a baddie or indy would put that much work into getting Elo lynched. His passion for that case sounded real. I really think he believed it.

Tiny Bubbles, as I said, could have missed a PM. That MM seems to have been silenced seems to make it appear that something else happened with the kill. I can't remember who posted the idea that only 1 kill is inherited, which is an interesting thought. I also wonder if a silence came from elsewhere.

I don't have strong opinions on anyone else.

Does anyone have a Rorschach list handy?

[Ricochet]

Does anyone have a Rorschach list handy?

DDL (Golden, DH, Eloh)
Cookie (Golden, DH)
LoRab (Golden)
Scotty (Eloh)
MP (Eloh)

[Ricochet]

MM has been silenced, he's applying the Roxy method of posting in every other section to signal this.

No wai, MP too?!

[Ricochet]

To whoever sent me the ciphered message: thanks for reaching out to me but I cannot figure your message out. Weekends are horrible for me to devote more than 10% of my time to mafia, so I'll try to decode your message if I can find time. Sorry to disappoint you.

What message? I think it's the second time I'm hearing a player receiving some "info" he has to crack during the Night, after Eloh.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Uh, no, not your vanishing as a player, your case's vanishing. (Again, just like LoRab, I don't criticize players for "vanishing".) It felt to me like as soon as MP pointed out some inaccuracies about your ISO and you agreed it invalidates a few stuff and said you'll recheck it, it ended up nowhere. You simply said it didn't invalidate the rest of your case and you're keeping him in check. To which my question, if you've called him Mafia a Day before and made ISO hardly invalidating this conclusion, why the downgrade to "still a suspect"?

You make some fair points about having referenced Eloh as potential Moloch but not Big Figure, so I'll look back over your posts, although I'd still say your vote post and reasoning was based on her actually being Big Figure and bussing both her teammates. I didn't get the "maybe Elo is Moloch and I'm fine with that too" impression from that particular post, only from your explanations right now, which is of course a bit in retrospect.

I've been consistently suspecting MP since I made the first ISO on him, if that's what you wanna know. I took a detour on day 5, but I'm probably voting him today.

"Still a suspect" is not a downgrade. Nobody can get more suspicious than that. Because I can't know for sure anyone is mafia, so the best I can do is call them suspects.

The Eloh case was pretty sloppy, though I believe you should look at my dialogue with MP and Scotty about it if you want to understand what I was thinking.

[Ricochet]

Uh, no, not your vanishing as a player, your case's vanishing. (Again, just like LoRab, I don't criticize players for "vanishing".) It felt to me like as soon as MP pointed out some inaccuracies about your ISO and you agreed it invalidates a few stuff and said you'll recheck it, it ended up nowhere. You simply said it didn't invalidate the rest of your case and you're keeping him in check. To which my question, if you've called him Mafia a Day before and made ISO hardly invalidating this conclusion, why the downgrade to "still a suspect"?

You make some fair points about having referenced Eloh as potential Moloch but not Big Figure, so I'll look back over your posts, although I'd still say your vote post and reasoning was based on her actually being Big Figure and bussing both her teammates. I didn't get the "maybe Elo is Moloch and I'm fine with that too" impression from that particular post, only from your explanations right now, which is of course a bit in retrospect.

I've been consistently suspecting MP since I made the first ISO on him, if that's what you wanna know. I took a detour on day 5, but I'm probably voting him today.

"Still a suspect" is not a downgrade. Nobody can get more suspicious than that. Because I can't know for sure anyone is mafia, so the best I can do is call them suspects.

The Eloh case was pretty sloppy, though I believe you should look at my dialogue with MP and Scotty about it if you want to understand what I was thinking.

This is downgrade I meant (or sensed)

Yes I do have some nerve. I'm doing that because I think you're mafia. If later you flip civ, I'll apologize for everything. But now I don't think you'll flip civ.

That said though, I still suspect MP. For all I know he could be whatever of the 2 baddies Eloh is not. LoRab is still on my list too, I haven't forgotten her.

Your dialogue with MP and Scotty feels like it's pointing straight at the switch between dismissing Eloh as Inmate and embracing the viewpoint.

Guys, Elo is the last mafia. I'm sure of it. She's taking advantage of the momentum there is to vote for me, based on what DDL has been pushing, in order to lead a lynch on me. Her vote on D1 for Sloonei was clearly after seeing how Epi's vote succeeded for him in Guess Who?, and her sloppy distancing from Sloonei was real.

In fact, if you lynch Elo today and she comes back civilian, I implore all of you to lynch me immediately thereafter.

I'm almost completely sure Elo is not Big Figure, because it would have required her to sacrifice both of her teamates, and I don't think that's an optimal play to do.

She could, however, be Moloch, based on her behavior, which I agree is really fishy.

@Scotty

But two sacrifices? With votes on both of them? Forget the opinions, look at the votes.

That kind of play only makes sense if you think you can gain enough cred to survive till the rest of the game. Do you think Eloh came even close to doing that?

I could only see that as possible if she thought espers was doomed and decided to make a risky gambit, upon realizing her faction's likehood of winning was shit anyway. While the Sloonei sacrifice, at that point, was seen as a safer move, with two other members left. Still, it sounds far-fetched.

Scotty, do you think Elo is a baddie, or you think she is Big Figure? I want to know what you think. Do you thinks she is more likely to be Big Figure than Moloch?

MP, calm down. I knew you'd be pissed by the NO U point, but I had to point it out.

I have a question for you about Elo. Don't you think Elo's votes are way too risky for Big Figure, specially considering she would be sacrificing both of her teamates?

I'm asking those questions because I'm way more interested in hunting Big Figure now than Moloch, so I want to know what you guys think.

Also, "more interested in hunting Big Figure now that Moloch" and voting Eloh accordingly doesn't quite equate with what you've said earlier now that you "believed Eloh could be Moloch, and I decided to confirm that, and I guess my theory that Eloh could have bussed both of her teammates (and thus also being possibly Big Figure) was a case of confirmation bias".

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Did a quick skim of Russ's posts, since he's another player everybody has been talking about and I needed to form an opinion on him.

Honestly I'm having a good feeling about the guy. In the first half of the game he was absent, but that can be justified because of RL, which he did warn us about in advance. In the second half, he became more active. It seems his playstyle is one of not making huge analysis or ISOs, and not tunneling or listing suspects. He gives an opinion about everything that goes on his head, tries to pick meaningful clues on what's going on, and votes with his gut. Not a civ leader, but not an useless civilian either.

I really doubt he is is Big Figure because he had been consistently suspecting espers for a while, and was the first one to vote him on d4. Would be a very risky bussing. And if he is Moloch, then he's playing a very balanced game for a baddie, managing to look natural, not being afraid to say everything that comes to his mind and boldly jumping on suspicions. Of course, the way it's hard for us to find Moloch based on votes, the dude could be simply playing to his own meta while blending with town, but right now I have no reason to believe he's doing that.

Could be a meaningful lynch candidate for lylo if we run out of suspects, but right now, I'm not buying it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Rico

I'll try to explain better.

I was and I still am interested at hunting BF more than Moloch. I had the opinion that Eloh looked pretty suspicious, but her vote history screamed "not BF". Then D5 happened, mp and Scotty came in with very early votes on Eloh. They gave me a feeling they were seeing more into it than I was seeing myself. I talked to them and wanted to know why, and I wanted to believe them, but the fact they were calling her Big Figure instead of Moloch didn't convince me.

So I kept reading their posts until they both said something that I believe could be a reasonable explanation for the bussing (the theory that Eloh bussed her teammates because the flow of the game pointed to they being lynched). I let my confirmation bias do the rest and bought the theory that Eloh was Big Figure.

Yes, I know the whole thing is fishy and a huge departure to how I approached the game until Day 4. I thought I had spotted something meaningful, but I hadn't, and I dropped the way I had been playing the game up to that point because of it. You can believe me or not if you want.

[Scotty]

To whoever sent me the ciphered message: thanks for reaching out to me but I cannot figure your message out. Weekends are horrible for me to devote more than 10% of my time to mafia, so I'll try to decode your message if I can find time. Sorry to disappoint you.

What message? I think it's the second time I'm hearing a player receiving some "info" he has to crack during the Night, after Eloh.

I received it Night 4, and used it to inform some of my reads. I'd like to think it's Ozymandias giving us hints.

Otherwise, we're just being duped by the magician.

Elo received a message Night 3.


Anyway, I took a step back from last night. Got a few hours of sleep. Going to bed at 5am didn't help.
I think I did start to get awfully close to tunneling on GMan. But I see the light, and I'm going back to my original read that GMan is probably Morlock.

As for LoRab, I'm actually good with her line of defense. Her absence from the thread makes sense and she's reading more genuine to me.

RE: MM getting silenced. How sure are we of that?

Cookie, Cookie, Cookie.
Your strategy has been very much under my radar for some time now. I couldn't put a finger on it. I did vote for you Day 4, and while I wish after the fact that I had changed it to espers, I'm not regretful of voting you.

(My responses in blue.

G-Man, thanks for those technicolors. I know I knocked them last Day period, and I still firmly believe they shouldn't be the only source of information, but they are an important one.

Cookie, you still wondering why the mafia has kept me alive this whole time? Should be evident now.
Not so much anymore. You are likely to be lynched. But given your posts, you still seem like you could be bad but I don't think you will be receiving my vote tomorrow.
Everything about this sentence is wishy-washy. Confident MP's going to be lynched, so who cares if he hasn't been NK'd yet. But he could be bad, so/but/yet you're not voting him. I'd expect more of a follow-through at this point in the game. She's been shrugging off reads like it's a new fad. Make a commitment.

Everyone, if you want to lynch me tomorrow, so be it. Going into this Day period, it seemed likely to me that I very well could get lynched anyway, and people were complaining that I couldn't commit. I felt strong about what I uncovered shortly after D5's start about Elo, so I decided to take a stand. Otherwise, it seemed as though I might have been dead meat anyway.

If you want to blame her death on me, that's fine. I realize she couldn't even defend herself. I take full responsibility for that lynch, as I stated earlier. I hate that I caused another mislynch and led to an unproductive D5 and likely an unproductive D6. I'm going to try my best to avoid the latter.In your defense, you did not realize she may have been silenced until after your vote and after you posted evidence against her.
You're defending MP here. And with the argument that he didn't know if she couldn't defend herself? MP admits that he realizes she couldn't defend. Either way, I don't think it would have mattered much. MP seemed deadset on that choice in the early phase.

Rico said it best earlier in D5 when he said that the lynch of Elo truly was a test of voting records v. gameplay, because Elo looked pretty good in the former (though not perfect) and terrible in the latter. I took a gamble and I was wrong. For derailing the thread and refusing to listen to counterarguments as much as I should have, I apologize.

Nonetheless, I think that any of you who want to go "BLAME MP" should take a step back and realize that every player here takes an inherent responsibility for their own vote when it is cast (or not cast, which is reprehensible).

I don't apologize for all of the baddie hunting I've done this game. I may have questioned myself too much on Sloonei and espers, and tunneled Elo, but I've done everything in my power to hunt baddies this game. Truly this is a terrible performance from me. But it doesn't make me mafia.

I realize for some (perhaps many) of you, it would take a flip of me to truly confirm that, and nothing I can say would persuade you otherwise. I can empathize.

I was actually feeling selfish earlier this morning, as if I didn't care whether town won this game if they auto-lynched me tomorrow, because it means that I won't win. I put an insane amount of time and energy into this game, and it's been very mentally and emotionally taxing. I think if you are lynched tomorrow, it will not be because you lead the vote on Elo and you turned out to be town. It will be because people have studied your posts and votes and determined you to be the most likely candidate for being bad. If we lynched everyone who led lynches against civs, then we would lose.
I guess we could do the flipside and use your method of scum-hunting: Well he looks bad, but he could be good, but I like he might be bad so I dunno lol
For G-Man to declare to me that I "need to go" was very bothersome, especially when it can be argued that other players "need to go", for whatever reason. I don't think that should EVER be a reason for lynching anyone. Especially for lynching someone who's put as much effort as I have into this game. If you find my actions suspect, sure. But no one, on sheer principle, "needs to go". This isn't a criticism of you, G-Man, and I don't think that's what you intended, since you have declared my voting record as a reason for me being suspect, but I just want this said nonetheless.

Despite that, the truth is that I still want to see civilians win this game regardless. I'm going to try my best in what will probably be my last hour to make that happen.

I don't want to be lynched tomorrow. Right now, there are 10 players alive. Assuming Moloch is alive and a civilian is NKed tonight, that leaves 7-1-1 going into D6. 6-1-1 if I get lynched, then 5-1-1 going into D7. That's still not bad, but less than ideal, since you all can only afford 1 more mislynch after you'd lynch me. 2 mislynches, assuming successful NK of a civilian each Night, would make it 1-1-1, which is GAME OVER for us. Then there's the complication of the Watchmen additional win cons as well.

Think carefully about how you conduct lynches going forward, including my own, since we're running low on chances.

I've responded in pink!

Then gone for 8 hours and swears she will be back "after [her] massage".
Immediately after the no-lynch night, she decides to post some ISOs, which, if you remember from her early game, were very foreign to her. But she should have suspects at this point, and I honestly can't think of any of late.
My responses in blue.

I'm not going to do full ISO's on everyone because... ain't nobody got time fo' dat, but I am going to talk about some post with people from what I can remember. I'm sure most of these points have already been addressed, but like MP says, it's crucial we find the final mafia/muloch. I'm also only looking mostly at votes and things I remember from specific days.

MP - I just remembered he was silenced on D2. If he is the final baddie, why would he silence himself on D2? He wasn't under any heat and no one suspected him at this point. D3 and D4, he voted for me and not Espers, who he continually said looked suspicious. D5 he voted for Elo, which I agree, given the evidence against her, was a valid vote.So...you think he is civ?
MetalMarsh - The only things I find strange about MM is his self-vote for D2 and then proceeded to miss the vote the next day. Did MM say why he voted for DDL on D5?It's MM, no. And again...no read
DDL - I think DDL seems civ. There's nothing he has done that speaks volumes to me like the previous two. He did vote for LoRab on D4, which tied the votes between me, Espers, and LoRab. If he was civ, it was a genuine mistake that he tied the votes by voting who he thought was mafia. If he was maf, he would be tying the votes so that Espers did not (hopefully) die. He voted for Elo on D5. If I recall correctly, wasn't DDL one of the ones who was adamant that Elo was civ? OK, OK. DDL seems civ to you. That's a committed read, I guess.
G-Man - I've no idea what to think about him.Wait, you have no idea what to think of him right now? It's Day 6! You're sure to at least have some opinion one way or another.
LoRab - The last to vote Espers the day that Espers died. Seems civ to me but could just be bussing. Didn't actually secure his death, since the person who voted for Espers before LoRab was securing Espers death unless someone else voted me or LoRab. Could have also been self-preservation, since LoRab knew he/she had suspicions against him/her. When you start using the word "bussing", I am pinged in remembering that I keep wanting to coddle you, thinking you may not know those sorts of terms. But you do, and so I don't want to look at you through rose-colored glasses anymore. Your read on LoRab? seems civ...
Bass/Tiny - I've no idea what to think about them. It's not like Bass was MIA the first few days. Tiny hasnt posted in a while, sure, but he was actively scum hunting. How can you not have an opinion? Baffles me.
Ricochet - Voted Elo on D1 (or is it D0?) but did not vote Elo when MP and Scotty presented evidence (was he away somewhere?). I don't remember if he was actually online for the discussion of that.no read or opinion
Russtifinko - Was the first to vote for Espers/ika, however, ika was bound to be lynched either that day or the next. Although, being the first, seems civ to me. "however", "although", maybe, i dunno lol
Scotty - Seems genuinely sorry for his mistake in voting Elo. He didn't pressure anyone into voting for her, but posted his claims and left it at that. I regard this as a civ move. Nothing else about him gives me baddie vibes. civ again.

So I've no idea who I should vote for. My top suspects would be: MP, MM, and LoRab.
So your top suspects are (in order): maybe civ, no read, seems civ.
Oh boy.. That's like a doctor prescribing me foot cream for my cancerous head growth. It DOESN'T MAKE SENSE

Sorry if I get the Day #s mixed up, I couldn't remember if it was called D0 or D1.

Ricochet is right- you do seem overly comfortable handing out civ tags, and generally don't have a handle on the flow of the game.
Except.
You do seem to be getting a hang of things, with your verbiage in your occasional posts. I'm done looking at you as the baby of the group, you're not a baby. Shouldn't treat you as one. You know full well what you're doing, AND if you were mafia, you're still having espers and Sloonei talk to you beyond the grave, so you're not completely alone, my dear.

Cookie is this guy:
Seems like a trustworthy person, maybe throwing some dance moves in, but in reality, is a werewolf.

What does anyone else see/think?

[Scotty]

Updates:
Scotty is hunting and failing so far, something that he himself acknowledged after the Eloh fail. I'm naturally inclined not to suspect mislynchers right off the bat (being a grave one myself, usually) and most of Scotty's hunting doesn't look to be superficial, tunneling or fake to me. His lack of Sloonei ping and odd voting got him in trouble after D1, to which him being NK'd is a strong indicator that it couldn't have been a sacrifice within the Mafia team. That being said, his shallow surface direct reads on the confirmed Mafia members, compared to always bringing other players in context with them, is pretty undesirable. I will say this, I will basically flip barking mad if Manhattan screwed up and resurrected a baddie Scotty (either Inmate or Moloch), because it feels like a defenseless situation to deal with. His death and rezz doesn't exonerate him from the odds of being bad, but I cannot say I'm getting bad vibes from him right now. I'm noticing a lot of focus from him on G-Man and I'm wondering if there's not something subtle about it; he seems to try to find a bad angle on everything G-Man is doing, even that D3 vote situation, which I personally still can't wrap my head around as being indicative of G-Man being bad - this may be slight tunnel-ish, but I makes me wonder all the more if Scotty isn't aware of something.

I would not say "failing" more than "flailing". Some days I don't have the time to devote to a multitude of reads, so I pick the best one and go with it. Often times, I will say I am tunneling, but I usually attempt to have informed opinions of why I'm tunneling. I also try to be reasonable, and will swerve from my tunneling if I see convincing evidence elsewhere. MP's arguments on Elo made sense, and I also had suspicions on her from the start, and I didn't see convincing evidence that day to the contrary, so I stayed the course. I take full responsibility for pushing that agenda along as well, and did fail then. I think where MP has invested a shit-ton of time in baddie hunting and has gotten to a small point of analysis paralysis, i'm not quite there. I'm close, but not there yet.

If I were in your shoes, and I did get rezzed by a watchman and flipped bad I'd be pissed too. I'd like to think Manhattan got information and knew that I wasn't bad (maybe Ozymandias told him) but who knows.

[Cookie]

Updates:

TinyBubbles - hasn't played one bit. I have nothing to work with. If she's landed a bad role (BF or Moloch), it'll be a desolate endgame if we lose. Based on Bass' performance, still inclined to call it slightly civ.
Do we need a replacement for the replacement? Lol

Cookie - no change. Offered more reads and ideas in the meantime, out of which the interesting thing I got was her idea of LoRab's vote for ika mirroring a potential bussing of an already toast teammate, the same way espers bussed Sloonei when it was half clear he'll get lynched; that, combined with the defense of voting in self-preservation, can constitute a bit of blending. She's [Cookie, that is] a bit more comfortable handing out civ tags than I personally am, but fine, at least there's something to take note of her views on everyone else. Her top current suspects, assuming a vote would materialize from them, are LoRab (ok), MP (she said she won't vote for him, though) and MM (she only found two strange things in his gameplay, yet is putting him at the top? sounds a bit comfy). Keeping a close eye on her.
I said I would not vote MP in the night so that I didn't get killed for saying I would vote for him, considering I think he is the final mafia. I am most likely to vote for MP today unless I am convinced someone else is mafia given other theories or if others are willing (and do) vote for LoRab. MM is silenced and I remember people saying it's not really fair to vote for silenced players.

DDL - no improvement from previous read, in fact I actually feel worse about him. He ended up D4 calling MP scum and ISO'd the hell out of him on N4, but the next Day it all kinda vanished. He acknowledge a bit of his ISO was inaccurate, but was that really enough to take the pedal off him? I don't think it was ever clear, if so. States several times - in real time with MP's case on Eloh, furthermore - that he doesn't find Elo to be Big Figure, only to return and find MP's and Scotty's arguments convincing. Nothing inherently bad with that, since I myself found some of those angles interesting indeed (plus Eloh's whole gameplay truly awful), but this feels too flexible and non-committal, compared to the DDL that hunted and challenged hard on his own. (Golden, D2; DH, D3; MP, D4) I don't like this. Considering a vote for DDL today.
Now that you mention it, that's a good point about DDL, who previously was dead set on his reads and opinions, but was easily way in the vote with Elo.

G-Man - no change, I think. Also, check Scotty for a bit more speculation on him.

LoRab - Hasn't been really into the game since D4, when she mostly focused on defending herself and getting herself out of being lynched. I don't remember hearing a suspect from her apart from G-Man the first three days. Oh, you prefer sticking with your leads, rather than being in the loop with others? "Frankly dear..." No change from what I already wrote about her. I'm sorry, but just like with Eloh (even if she was good), you will seriously have to tell how am I supposed to trust LoRab. I'm feeling she's completely detached from the main events and it only makes me more wary. I wouldn't mind voting her today.
She has been voting for G-Man every chance she gets (could be a way to stay off of Rorschach's list, since no one else was willing to vote for him to the extent she did). She also doesn't seem to have considered anyone else?

MM

Spoiler: show

Day 1: 2nd vote for Ninja (Ninja at 2, all the other eventual wagons not even commenced)
Day 2: self-votes because he's MM and AWOL (first vote of the Day as well, will end up in a tie with Golden and survive)
Day 3: misses vote
Day 4: 1st vote for LoRab, on her being opportunistic and tunneling with her votes (first vote of the Day as well, LoRab will end up with three votes, tied with Cookie, ika will get lynched with 5)
Day 5: only vote for DDL, on his Moloch speculation and profiling him as Moloch (you guessed it, first vote of the Day)

Interactions with confirmed Mafia members

Sloonei - allocates an "ike" emoticon to him; admits voting alongside Sloonei, but for simple reasons of voting anyone; later comments on LC's theories of Eloh being Sloonei's teammate; defends himself against Scotty by not actually defending much and agreeing his vote followed Sloonei's (WIFOM planting?)

espers - allocates espers a "mole rat" emoticon; absolutely nothing else
ika - recommends to him to vote LoRab

Read: Enigma. Earlier I thought his banter and fluffing was coming off baddish, but it's hardly a tenth of the stuff he usually pulls; he's far more detached than that. His lack of confrontation with the field, as well as total lack of interaction or read on the confirmed Mafia members (whether distancing or not), doesn't bring in mind the baddie profile I had of him, either. His only semblance of a real case was on LoRab, but then he didn't seem to care about it anymore the next Day. The only pattern I could speculate on (tin-foil-style, let's say) is that his acknowledging of his D1 being close to Sloonei's would be WIFOM planting, and that his suggestion to ika to "simply vote LoRab" could be dastardly buddying (although ika never paid attention to him, so it's probably just banter). His latest speculation is that DDL is Moloch, because it fits the profile of a dormant baddie who hunts a lot to look good. But wouldn't the angle of a dormant Moloch who doesn't do anything also seem plausible? His dismissal of G-Man's suspicions on him, openly saying he doesn't care one bit if he'd get voted by him, could also be notable.
I have no idea where to place MM - yeah, bet you've never heard that before - I'm not too sure he could be the last Inmate and his detachment makes me think the odds are: 60% he's just MM, 30% he's Moloch, 10% he's - yeah, I'll say it* - an unlynchable** Manhattan who also gives no fucks about what happens (MM could have rezz'd Scotty to amend for the D1 banter they had; or for the lulz).

*this is pure speculation, please treat it as such; I've checked with Epig before to see if I'm allowed to make such a specific speculation; if you find it unplausible, think back to Death Note (if you've played it); **I'm not sure Epig's deist views of designing a mafia game would allow for an overpowered, unlynchable Manhattan, but still...he was overpowered and unkillable in the comics and the Watchmen, as far as it's shown, are fairly designed up to lore

Russtifinko

Spoiler: show

Day 1 - 2nd vote for G-Man, finding his wording strange (Sloonei at 4, Ninja at 3)
Day 2 - misses vote
Day 3 - misses vote
Day 4 - 1st vote for ika, for behavior (tied with LoRab)
Day 2 - 2nd vote for MP, to keep binary lynch close (brings MP at 2, with Eloh at 3)

Interactions with confirmed Mafia members

Sloonei - indirectly considers llama's points on him having merits (Sloonei's defensiveness being off-putting)
espers - considers his D1 vote the most suspicious, but find there's need to develop his view further; then finds him "above-board" for content; finds him safe vote for D3, although based only on his stated suspicious (which he considers not to be much); D4, keeps espers as mild suspicion; then (at Scotty's inquiry), considers him top read; votes ika for behavior; profiles last teammate as somebody who didn't buss espers on D3, but did on D4

Read: I'm not getting any strong bad vibe from browsing his posts, especially since he got more engaged in the game - he's going deep into reading, relying on gut and meta, participating and challenging others with reads etc. - but some of the interaction above is spotty, just like with many others. He consented to the general view on Sloonei, finding his defensiveness off-putting the way llama put it, but he focused otherwise on Eloh and G-Man and voted late for the latter, in a lynch train that was hardly relevant (despite G-Man's actions being a hot topic). It sounds reasonable, but it's also susceptible to a tin foil version of planting a suspicion on Sloonei to look good, then act in different directions. Just like with Bass, I will be absolutely floored if Russ would turn out to have been part of a surviving Mafia (alongside espers) which totally slacked off almost two Days in a row. His "mild suspicions" on espers, that failed to materialize into a vote until D4, have been brought up before and it was what he started getting some heat for. His early vote for ika technically makes him look good, but since ika totally bombed his exit, it's still believable that he would have been bussed without hesitation. His defense for Eloh makes me feel better, overall. As I've said, I'm reading a Russ who is putting a good game since he got into it for good. I can't decide at the moment how strongly, apart from the shoddy details mentioned above, I suspect him.

Scotty

Spoiler: show

Day 1 - Votes Eloh (vote hardly relevant within the eventual dynamic of the lynch: Sloonei currently at 1, Ninja at 2, G-Man also having a vote)
Day 4 - 1st vote for Cookie (ties her with LoRab and ika)
Day 5 - 2nd vote for Eloh, finds her very likely Big Figure (Eloh at 2, DDL at 1)

Interactions with confirmed Mafia members

Sloonei - wasn't pinged by his game; anything else is in context with other reads or discussions

espers - inquires him on reads; talk about D0 results; the rest is in context with other reads, discussion, other players' reads on espers; agrees the replacement is very suspicious; adds ika to his lynch options, based on MP and Russ reads

Scotty is hunting and failing so far, something that he himself acknowledged after the Eloh fail. I'm naturally inclined not to suspect mislynchers right off the bat (being a grave one myself, usually) and most of Scotty's hunting doesn't look to be superficial, tunneling or fake to me. His lack of Sloonei ping and odd voting got him in trouble after D1, to which him being NK'd is a strong indicator that it couldn't have been a sacrifice within the Mafia team. That being said, his shallow surface direct reads on the confirmed Mafia members, compared to always bringing other players in context with them, is pretty undesirable. I will say this, I will basically flip barking mad if Manhattan screwed up and resurrected a baddie Scotty (either Inmate or Moloch), because it feels like a defenseless situation to deal with. His death and rezz doesn't exonerate him from the odds of being bad, but I cannot say I'm getting bad vibes from him right now. I'm noticing a lot of focus from him on G-Man and I'm wondering if there's not something subtle about it; he seems to try to find a bad angle on everything G-Man is doing, even that D3 vote situation, which I personally still can't wrap my head around as being indicative of G-Man being bad - this may be slight tunnel-ish, but I makes me wonder all the more if Scotty isn't aware of something.

In case you're wondering where's the read on MP, hol' up for a few more hours. I'm probably risking again to drag my reads (and my sanity) near to the late deadline hours, but in case I'll feel that'll be the case, I'll focus right away on a shorter version and provide it.

I've responded in pink. I agree with your analysis of Russ and Scotty.

[Scotty]

Did a quick skim of Russ's posts, since he's another player everybody has been talking about and I needed to form an opinion on him.

Honestly I'm having a good feeling about the guy. In the first half of the game he was absent, but that can be justified because of RL, which he did warn us about in advance. In the second half, he became more active. It seems his playstyle is one of not making huge analysis or ISOs, and not tunneling or listing suspects. He gives an opinion about everything that goes on his head, tries to pick meaningful clues on what's going on, and votes with his gut. Not a civ leader, but not an useless civilian either.

I really doubt he is is Big Figure because he had been consistently suspecting espers for a while, and was the first one to vote him on d4. Would be a very risky bussing. And if he is Moloch, then he's playing a very balanced game for a baddie, managing to look natural, not being afraid to say everything that comes to his mind and boldly jumping on suspicions. Of course, the way it's hard for us to find Moloch based on votes, the dude could be simply playing to his own meta while blending with town, but right now I have no reason to believe he's doing that.

Could be a meaningful lynch candidate for lylo if we run out of suspects, but right now, I'm not buying it.

I also am coming more into terms with the fact that this is Russ' personality. He does have a calculated demeanor to him, which is what pinged me in the first place, and yes, he did suspect espers for a while- before espers even left the thread. I would like to hear more from him today and what he thinks, however. Because he's not completely off my list, but has slipped down.

As of now my list for lynching today is, in order: Cookie, GMan, LoRab, Russ, MM

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Re:Scotty's post about Cookie

I have no idea, I hate having to read newbies because they always have this aura of perpetual noobiness that makes any action they make look like genuine cluenessless.

Heck, there are players that make that their meta. There's a girl in NF who is playing mafia with me for the fourth time, and she still acts like it's the first one. But in the other games she was civ twice, and indie once. So yeah, it's hard to make anything from it.

There is something genuine looking about Cookie I think, in which she looked lost at the start but then started getting more used to the game. But I agree her reads are all over the place, sometimes she seems way too lost even for a noob. I'm leaning mafia on her, but not too much.

[Scotty]

@Rico

I'll try to explain better.

I was and I still am interested at hunting BF more than Moloch. I had the opinion that Eloh looked pretty suspicious, but her vote history screamed "not BF". Then D5 happened, mp and Scotty came in with very early votes on Eloh. They gave me a feeling they were seeing more into it than I was seeing myself. I talked to them and wanted to know why, and I wanted to believe them, but the fact they were calling her Big Figure instead of Moloch didn't convince me.

So I kept reading their posts until they both said something that I believe could be a reasonable explanation for the bussing (the theory that Eloh bussed her teammates because the flow of the game pointed to they being lynched). I let my confirmation bias do the rest and bought the theory that Eloh was Big Figure.

Yes, I know the whole thing is fishy and a huge departure to how I approached the game until Day 4. I thought I had spotted something meaningful, but I hadn't, and I dropped the way I had been playing the game up to that point because of it. You can believe me or not if you want.

Would you entertain my theory that Big Figure bussed espers at some point in time?

After all, espers did do it to Sloonei.

Also food for thought:
(ika) espers voted for Cookie right before Cookie voted for espers.

linki @DDL- but she's not a newbie. Sloonei said so (take that with a grain of salt if you want) and she even told us not to look at her as such.
At this point in the game, don't you think any able-bodied person would at least have some reads on people? Even someone that isn't used to reading people like we are?

[Scotty]

I also really want MP to weigh in here at some point today. I'm attempting not to tunnel, but I'm about to put my hand in the Cookie jar and go past the point of no return.

[Ricochet]

I also really want MP to weigh in here at some point today. I'm attempting not to tunnel, but I'm about to put my hand in the Cookie jar and go past the point of no return.

Both MM and MP have posted in every section of the forum but here, which I've recalled to have been a tactic in the past to signal you are silenced.

Either both of them have been genuinely hit by the two silencers or one or both of them are bullshitting us.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Anyway, I'm leaving in a while so let's wrap this up.

I'm voting MP today. I recognize his baddie play in this game was somewhat sloppy, but I don't think it was THAT sloppy. Truth be told, a baddie cannot make a completely flawless game unless they outright bus their teammates from the start, and as much as MP has tried to convince me that he is normally the master baddie that busses everyone, I don't see much room for that in this game. If he is a baddie, he is actually playing a pretty good game. He's not avoiding suspicions, but he is managing to cover every suspicion with WIFOM and keep people guessing. He changes his style when people question it, and then is able to WIFOM it out if people question that too. He seems eager to please others while still having the leadership over the civilians. He is playing very well to his meta while finding a way of making it fail when he needs to.

There is just way too much evidence, everywhere, for me to drop this. I've explained it over countless posts in this game, so I'm not elaborate it all over again. But I think at this point I have to admit enough is enough and put my vote where my suspicion is.

votes MP

Sorry my friend, but it's time for you to go. If you are a civ, I sincerely apologize for all the unfair bullying I gave you in this game. If you are a baddie, it was a pleasure playing mafia against you.

[Scotty]

my responses in blue.

Updates:

TinyBubbles - hasn't played one bit. I have nothing to work with. If she's landed a bad role (BF or Moloch), it'll be a desolate endgame if we lose. Based on Bass' performance, still inclined to call it slightly civ.
Do we need a replacement for the replacement? Lol

Cookie - no change. Offered more reads and ideas in the meantime, out of which the interesting thing I got was her idea of LoRab's vote for ika mirroring a potential bussing of an already toast teammate, the same way espers bussed Sloonei when it was half clear he'll get lynched; that, combined with the defense of voting in self-preservation, can constitute a bit of blending. She's [Cookie, that is] a bit more comfortable handing out civ tags than I personally am, but fine, at least there's something to take note of her views on everyone else. Her top current suspects, assuming a vote would materialize from them, are LoRab (ok), MP (she said she won't vote for him, though) and MM (she only found two strange things in his gameplay, yet is putting him at the top? sounds a bit comfy). Keeping a close eye on her.
I said I would not vote MP in the night so that I didn't get killed for saying I would vote for him, considering I think he is the final mafia. I am most likely to vote for MP today unless I am convinced someone else is mafia given other theories or if others are willing (and do) vote for LoRab. MM is silenced and I remember people saying it's not really fair to vote for silenced players.It's assumed, but we don't know MM is silenced. Unless...you do know he is silenced..

DDL - no improvement from previous read, in fact I actually feel worse about him. He ended up D4 calling MP scum and ISO'd the hell out of him on N4, but the next Day it all kinda vanished. He acknowledge a bit of his ISO was inaccurate, but was that really enough to take the pedal off him? I don't think it was ever clear, if so. States several times - in real time with MP's case on Eloh, furthermore - that he doesn't find Elo to be Big Figure, only to return and find MP's and Scotty's arguments convincing. Nothing inherently bad with that, since I myself found some of those angles interesting indeed (plus Eloh's whole gameplay truly awful), but this feels too flexible and non-committal, compared to the DDL that hunted and challenged hard on his own. (Golden, D2; DH, D3; MP, D4) I don't like this. Considering a vote for DDL today.
Now that you mention it, that's a good point about DDL, who previously was dead set on his reads and opinions, but was easily way in the vote with Elo.

G-Man - no change, I think. Also, check Scotty for a bit more speculation on him.

LoRab - Hasn't been really into the game since D4, when she mostly focused on defending herself and getting herself out of being lynched. I don't remember hearing a suspect from her apart from G-Man the first three days. Oh, you prefer sticking with your leads, rather than being in the loop with others? "Frankly dear..." No change from what I already wrote about her. I'm sorry, but just like with Eloh (even if she was good), you will seriously have to tell how am I supposed to trust LoRab. I'm feeling she's completely detached from the main events and it only makes me more wary. I wouldn't mind voting her today.
She has been voting for G-Man every chance she gets (could be a way to stay off of Rorschach's list, since no one else was willing to vote for him to the extent she did). She also doesn't seem to have considered anyone else?

MM

Spoiler: show

Day 1: 2nd vote for Ninja (Ninja at 2, all the other eventual wagons not even commenced)
Day 2: self-votes because he's MM and AWOL (first vote of the Day as well, will end up in a tie with Golden and survive)
Day 3: misses vote
Day 4: 1st vote for LoRab, on her being opportunistic and tunneling with her votes (first vote of the Day as well, LoRab will end up with three votes, tied with Cookie, ika will get lynched with 5)
Day 5: only vote for DDL, on his Moloch speculation and profiling him as Moloch (you guessed it, first vote of the Day)

Interactions with confirmed Mafia members

Sloonei - allocates an "ike" emoticon to him; admits voting alongside Sloonei, but for simple reasons of voting anyone; later comments on LC's theories of Eloh being Sloonei's teammate; defends himself against Scotty by not actually defending much and agreeing his vote followed Sloonei's (WIFOM planting?)

espers - allocates espers a "mole rat" emoticon; absolutely nothing else
ika - recommends to him to vote LoRab

Read: Enigma. Earlier I thought his banter and fluffing was coming off baddish, but it's hardly a tenth of the stuff he usually pulls; he's far more detached than that. His lack of confrontation with the field, as well as total lack of interaction or read on the confirmed Mafia members (whether distancing or not), doesn't bring in mind the baddie profile I had of him, either. His only semblance of a real case was on LoRab, but then he didn't seem to care about it anymore the next Day. The only pattern I could speculate on (tin-foil-style, let's say) is that his acknowledging of his D1 being close to Sloonei's would be WIFOM planting, and that his suggestion to ika to "simply vote LoRab" could be dastardly buddying (although ika never paid attention to him, so it's probably just banter). His latest speculation is that DDL is Moloch, because it fits the profile of a dormant baddie who hunts a lot to look good. But wouldn't the angle of a dormant Moloch who doesn't do anything also seem plausible? His dismissal of G-Man's suspicions on him, openly saying he doesn't care one bit if he'd get voted by him, could also be notable.
I have no idea where to place MM - yeah, bet you've never heard that before - I'm not too sure he could be the last Inmate and his detachment makes me think the odds are: 60% he's just MM, 30% he's Moloch, 10% he's - yeah, I'll say it* - an unlynchable** Manhattan who also gives no fucks about what happens (MM could have rezz'd Scotty to amend for the D1 banter they had; or for the lulz).

*this is pure speculation, please treat it as such; I've checked with Epig before to see if I'm allowed to make such a specific speculation; if you find it unplausible, think back to Death Note (if you've played it); **I'm not sure Epig's deist views of designing a mafia game would allow for an overpowered, unlynchable Manhattan, but still...he was overpowered and unkillable in the comics and the Watchmen, as far as it's shown, are fairly designed up to lore

Russtifinko

Spoiler: show

Day 1 - 2nd vote for G-Man, finding his wording strange (Sloonei at 4, Ninja at 3)
Day 2 - misses vote
Day 3 - misses vote
Day 4 - 1st vote for ika, for behavior (tied with LoRab)
Day 2 - 2nd vote for MP, to keep binary lynch close (brings MP at 2, with Eloh at 3)

Interactions with confirmed Mafia members

Sloonei - indirectly considers llama's points on him having merits (Sloonei's defensiveness being off-putting)
espers - considers his D1 vote the most suspicious, but find there's need to develop his view further; then finds him "above-board" for content; finds him safe vote for D3, although based only on his stated suspicious (which he considers not to be much); D4, keeps espers as mild suspicion; then (at Scotty's inquiry), considers him top read; votes ika for behavior; profiles last teammate as somebody who didn't buss espers on D3, but did on D4

Read: I'm not getting any strong bad vibe from browsing his posts, especially since he got more engaged in the game - he's going deep into reading, relying on gut and meta, participating and challenging others with reads etc. - but some of the interaction above is spotty, just like with many others. He consented to the general view on Sloonei, finding his defensiveness off-putting the way llama put it, but he focused otherwise on Eloh and G-Man and voted late for the latter, in a lynch train that was hardly relevant (despite G-Man's actions being a hot topic). It sounds reasonable, but it's also susceptible to a tin foil version of planting a suspicion on Sloonei to look good, then act in different directions. Just like with Bass, I will be absolutely floored if Russ would turn out to have been part of a surviving Mafia (alongside espers) which totally slacked off almost two Days in a row. His "mild suspicions" on espers, that failed to materialize into a vote until D4, have been brought up before and it was what he started getting some heat for. His early vote for ika technically makes him look good, but since ika totally bombed his exit, it's still believable that he would have been bussed without hesitation. His defense for Eloh makes me feel better, overall. As I've said, I'm reading a Russ who is putting a good game since he got into it for good. I can't decide at the moment how strongly, apart from the shoddy details mentioned above, I suspect him.

Scotty

Spoiler: show

Day 1 - Votes Eloh (vote hardly relevant within the eventual dynamic of the lynch: Sloonei currently at 1, Ninja at 2, G-Man also having a vote)
Day 4 - 1st vote for Cookie (ties her with LoRab and ika)
Day 5 - 2nd vote for Eloh, finds her very likely Big Figure (Eloh at 2, DDL at 1)

Interactions with confirmed Mafia members

Sloonei - wasn't pinged by his game; anything else is in context with other reads or discussions

espers - inquires him on reads; talk about D0 results; the rest is in context with other reads, discussion, other players' reads on espers; agrees the replacement is very suspicious; adds ika to his lynch options, based on MP and Russ reads

Scotty is hunting and failing so far, something that he himself acknowledged after the Eloh fail. I'm naturally inclined not to suspect mislynchers right off the bat (being a grave one myself, usually) and most of Scotty's hunting doesn't look to be superficial, tunneling or fake to me. His lack of Sloonei ping and odd voting got him in trouble after D1, to which him being NK'd is a strong indicator that it couldn't have been a sacrifice within the Mafia team. That being said, his shallow surface direct reads on the confirmed Mafia members, compared to always bringing other players in context with them, is pretty undesirable. I will say this, I will basically flip barking mad if Manhattan screwed up and resurrected a baddie Scotty (either Inmate or Moloch), because it feels like a defenseless situation to deal with. His death and rezz doesn't exonerate him from the odds of being bad, but I cannot say I'm getting bad vibes from him right now. I'm noticing a lot of focus from him on G-Man and I'm wondering if there's not something subtle about it; he seems to try to find a bad angle on everything G-Man is doing, even that D3 vote situation, which I personally still can't wrap my head around as being indicative of G-Man being bad - this may be slight tunnel-ish, but I makes me wonder all the more if Scotty isn't aware of something.

In case you're wondering where's the read on MP, hol' up for a few more hours. I'm probably risking again to drag my reads (and my sanity) near to the late deadline hours, but in case I'll feel that'll be the case, I'll focus right away on a shorter version and provide it.

I've responded in pink. I agree with your analysis of Russ and Scotty.

I need to go to work, will be back off and on later on. I thought maybe Derf was dead at this point, because I don't remember having two silencers. I guess I'll wait an hour and see. It does seem odd for both to be posting elsewhere.

If that;s the case, dammit derf. One of those guys is AT LEAST good, so why eliminate a good vote?

[LoRab]

Does anyone have a Rorschach list handy?

DDL (Golden, DH, Eloh)
Cookie (Golden, DH)
LoRab (Golden)
Scotty (Eloh)
MP (Eloh)

Do you have a complete list (including people already gone)?

[Scotty]

When did Tiny say she was going to be back? If she is absent in tonight's vote, and if MM and MP are both unable to vote, how many possible votes are we looking at tonight?

[Ricochet]

When did Tiny say she was going to be back? If she is absent in tonight's vote, and if MM and MP are both unable to vote, how many possible votes are we looking at tonight?

Seven.

Does anyone have a Rorschach list handy?

DDL (Golden, DH, Eloh)
Cookie (Golden, DH)
LoRab (Golden)
Scotty (Eloh)
MP (Eloh)

Do you have a complete list (including people already gone)?

This is the complete list of players eligible for Roschach's wrath?

A complete list of what, exactly?

[Cookie]

(My responses in blue.

G-Man, thanks for those technicolors. I know I knocked them last Day period, and I still firmly believe they shouldn't be the only source of information, but they are an important one.

Cookie, you still wondering why the mafia has kept me alive this whole time? Should be evident now.
Not so much anymore. You are likely to be lynched. But given your posts, you still seem like you could be bad but I don't think you will be receiving my vote tomorrow.
Everything about this sentence is wishy-washy. Confident MP's going to be lynched, so who cares if he hasn't been NK'd yet. But he could be bad, so/but/yet you're not voting him. I'd expect more of a follow-through at this point in the game. She's been shrugging off reads like it's a new fad. Make a commitment. I only said I wouldn't vote him tomorrow because I was posting during the Night phase and didn't want him to kill me if he was the last mafia. Although, why would he kill me? I look suspicious so I could easily be lynched instead of him (or whoever else is suspicious).

Everyone, if you want to lynch me tomorrow, so be it. Going into this Day period, it seemed likely to me that I very well could get lynched anyway, and people were complaining that I couldn't commit. I felt strong about what I uncovered shortly after D5's start about Elo, so I decided to take a stand. Otherwise, it seemed as though I might have been dead meat anyway.

If you want to blame her death on me, that's fine. I realize she couldn't even defend herself. I take full responsibility for that lynch, as I stated earlier. I hate that I caused another mislynch and led to an unproductive D5 and likely an unproductive D6. I'm going to try my best to avoid the latter.In your defense, you did not realize she may have been silenced until after your vote and after you posted evidence against her.
You're defending MP here. And with the argument that he didn't know if she couldn't defend herself? MP admits that he realizes she couldn't defend. Either way, I don't think it would have mattered much. MP seemed deadset on that choice in the early phase. He just seemed so sad so I wanted to say something to cheer him up a bit. It's not indicative of anything at all.

Rico said it best earlier in D5 when he said that the lynch of Elo truly was a test of voting records v. gameplay, because Elo looked pretty good in the former (though not perfect) and terrible in the latter. I took a gamble and I was wrong. For derailing the thread and refusing to listen to counterarguments as much as I should have, I apologize.

Nonetheless, I think that any of you who want to go "BLAME MP" should take a step back and realize that every player here takes an inherent responsibility for their own vote when it is cast (or not cast, which is reprehensible).

I don't apologize for all of the baddie hunting I've done this game. I may have questioned myself too much on Sloonei and espers, and tunneled Elo, but I've done everything in my power to hunt baddies this game. Truly this is a terrible performance from me. But it doesn't make me mafia.

I realize for some (perhaps many) of you, it would take a flip of me to truly confirm that, and nothing I can say would persuade you otherwise. I can empathize.

I was actually feeling selfish earlier this morning, as if I didn't care whether town won this game if they auto-lynched me tomorrow, because it means that I won't win. I put an insane amount of time and energy into this game, and it's been very mentally and emotionally taxing. I think if you are lynched tomorrow, it will not be because you lead the vote on Elo and you turned out to be town. It will be because people have studied your posts and votes and determined you to be the most likely candidate for being bad. If we lynched everyone who led lynches against civs, then we would lose.
I guess we could do the flipside and use your method of scum-hunting: Well he looks bad, but he could be good, but I like he might be bad so I dunno lol What? I can't tell if you are just mocking me here in some way...
For G-Man to declare to me that I "need to go" was very bothersome, especially when it can be argued that other players "need to go", for whatever reason. I don't think that should EVER be a reason for lynching anyone. Especially for lynching someone who's put as much effort as I have into this game. If you find my actions suspect, sure. But no one, on sheer principle, "needs to go". This isn't a criticism of you, G-Man, and I don't think that's what you intended, since you have declared my voting record as a reason for me being suspect, but I just want this said nonetheless.

Despite that, the truth is that I still want to see civilians win this game regardless. I'm going to try my best in what will probably be my last hour to make that happen.

I don't want to be lynched tomorrow. Right now, there are 10 players alive. Assuming Moloch is alive and a civilian is NKed tonight, that leaves 7-1-1 going into D6. 6-1-1 if I get lynched, then 5-1-1 going into D7. That's still not bad, but less than ideal, since you all can only afford 1 more mislynch after you'd lynch me. 2 mislynches, assuming successful NK of a civilian each Night, would make it 1-1-1, which is GAME OVER for us. Then there's the complication of the Watchmen additional win cons as well.

Think carefully about how you conduct lynches going forward, including my own, since we're running low on chances.

I've responded in pink!

Then gone for 8 hours and swears she will be back "after [her] massage".
Immediately after the no-lynch night, she decides to post some ISOs, which, if you remember from her early game, were very foreign to her. But she should have suspects at this point, and I honestly can't think of any of late.
My responses in blue.

I'm not going to do full ISO's on everyone because... ain't nobody got time fo' dat, but I am going to talk about some post with people from what I can remember. I'm sure most of these points have already been addressed, but like MP says, it's crucial we find the final mafia/muloch. I'm also only looking mostly at votes and things I remember from specific days.

MP - I just remembered he was silenced on D2. If he is the final baddie, why would he silence himself on D2? He wasn't under any heat and no one suspected him at this point. D3 and D4, he voted for me and not Espers, who he continually said looked suspicious. D5 he voted for Elo, which I agree, given the evidence against her, was a valid vote.So...you think he is civ? No, as I've said before in previous posts. I think he is mafia.
MetalMarsh - The only things I find strange about MM is his self-vote for D2 and then proceeded to miss the vote the next day. Did MM say why he voted for DDL on D5?It's MM, no. And again...no read Seems mafia.
DDL - I think DDL seems civ. There's nothing he has done that speaks volumes to me like the previous two. He did vote for LoRab on D4, which tied the votes between me, Espers, and LoRab. If he was civ, it was a genuine mistake that he tied the votes by voting who he thought was mafia. If he was maf, he would be tying the votes so that Espers did not (hopefully) die. He voted for Elo on D5. If I recall correctly, wasn't DDL one of the ones who was adamant that Elo was civ? OK, OK. DDL seems civ to you. That's a committed read, I guess.
G-Man - I've no idea what to think about him.Wait, you have no idea what to think of him right now? It's Day 6! You're sure to at least have some opinion one way or another. I don't remember anything he's posted. I skipped over reading the first 2 days or so because I was annoyed that Sloonei was being lynched (not becuase I am mafia with him, but because he is my good friend and I was looking forward to playing a game with him). And the thread moved too fast, so I couldn't remember who posted what. It's only been the past 3 days where I've gotten to know all of the living posters, their style of posting, their image, etc.
LoRab - The last to vote Espers the day that Espers died. Seems civ to me but could just be bussing. Didn't actually secure his death, since the person who voted for Espers before LoRab was securing Espers death unless someone else voted me or LoRab. Could have also been self-preservation, since LoRab knew he/she had suspicions against him/her. When you start using the word "bussing", I am pinged in remembering that I keep wanting to coddle you, thinking you may not know those sorts of terms. But you do, and so I don't want to look at you through rose-colored glasses anymore. Your read on LoRab? seems civ... I only know these terms because people have been using them and I've been googling, for example "ISO mafia" will bring up what ISO means (yes, I had to google that when I first read it).
Bass/Tiny - I've no idea what to think about them. It's not like Bass was MIA the first few days. Tiny hasnt posted in a while, sure, but he was actively scum hunting. How can you not have an opinion? Baffles me. See my reply above about the first 2 days.
Ricochet - Voted Elo on D1 (or is it D0?) but did not vote Elo when MP and Scotty presented evidence (was he away somewhere?). I don't remember if he was actually online for the discussion of that.no read or opinion He seems civ.
Russtifinko - Was the first to vote for Espers/ika, however, ika was bound to be lynched either that day or the next. Although, being the first, seems civ to me. "however", "although", maybe, i dunno lol
Scotty - Seems genuinely sorry for his mistake in voting Elo. He didn't pressure anyone into voting for her, but posted his claims and left it at that. I regard this as a civ move. Nothing else about him gives me baddie vibes. civ again. Yes, he seems civ.

So I've no idea who I should vote for. My top suspects would be: MP, MM, and LoRab.
So your top suspects are (in order): maybe civ, no read, seems civ.
Oh boy.. That's like a doctor prescribing me foot cream for my cancerous head growth. It DOESN'T MAKE SENSE I might not have said what I think their alignment was, but if I listed them as my top suspects, wouldn't I think they are mafia?

Sorry if I get the Day #s mixed up, I couldn't remember if it was called D0 or D1.

Ricochet is right- you do seem overly comfortable handing out civ tags, and generally don't have a handle on the flow of the game.
Except.
You do seem to be getting a hang of things, with your verbiage in your occasional posts. I'm done looking at you as the baby of the group, you're not a baby. Shouldn't treat you as one. You know full well what you're doing, AND if you were mafia, you're still having espers and Sloonei talk to you beyond the grave, so you're not completely alone, my dear. If I was mafia, Sloonei would be no help to me. He's so busy in R.L. that he's had to be replaced in one game already, and he couldn't even sign up for a new game with me. As for Espers, he had to be replaced for being unable to keep up with the game, R.L. stuff so whoever the last mafia is, is definitely not being helped by Sloonei or Espers (or Ika, for that matter, who seemed to just be trolling).

Cookie is this guy:
Seems like a trustworthy person, maybe throwing some dance moves in, but in reality, is a werewolf.

What does anyone else see/think?

[LoRab]

@Cookie: I've been on Rorscharch's list since day 2, so avoiding that list hasn't been my goal for a while, unfortunately.

@Scotty (I think it was Scotty): I don't think we should be trusting Ozymandias as a role, based entirely on source material.

linkitis: @Ricochet: I meant a complete list of all of the players throughout the game who would be on the list--not just the ones who are still living.

[Cookie]

[quote="Scotty"]
Cookie - no change. Offered more reads and ideas in the meantime, out of which the interesting thing I got was her idea of LoRab's vote for ika mirroring a potential bussing of an already toast teammate, the same way espers bussed Sloonei when it was half clear he'll get lynched; that, combined with the defense of voting in self-preservation, can constitute a bit of blending. She's [Cookie, that is] a bit more comfortable handing out civ tags than I personally am, but fine, at least there's something to take note of her views on everyone else. Her top current suspects, assuming a vote would materialize from them, are LoRab (ok), MP (she said she won't vote for him, though) and MM (she only found two strange things in his gameplay, yet is putting him at the top? sounds a bit comfy). Keeping a close eye on her.
I said I would not vote MP in the night so that I didn't get killed for saying I would vote for him, considering I think he is the final mafia. I am most likely to vote for MP today unless I am convinced someone else is mafia given other theories or if others are willing (and do) vote for LoRab. MM is silenced and I remember people saying it's not really fair to vote for silenced players.It's assumed, but we don't know MM is silenced. Unless...you do know he is silenced.. I'm making an assumption based on what someone said about him posting everywhere else to notify everyone he is silenced. Of course I don't know if he is silenced. But there are two silencing abilities in the game.

[Cookie]

The post was too big so I tried to make it smaller and failed, sorry! You get it though.

[Cookie]

Also food for thought:
(ika) espers voted for Cookie right before Cookie voted for espers.

I voted Espers first and I've no idea how long after Ika voted for me.

[LoRab]

I can't remember who said something about Dr Manhattan maybe being unlynchable? Given that the watchmen do not need to be alive to win, according to the descriptions, it would seem like an odd power to add. Survives the first attempt or two on life, maybe...but unlynchable doesn't seem likely, imho.

[G-Man]

To whoever sent me the ciphered message: thanks for reaching out to me but I cannot figure your message out. Weekends are horrible for me to devote more than 10% of my time to mafia, so I'll try to decode your message if I can find time. Sorry to disappoint you.

What message? I think it's the second time I'm hearing a player receiving some "info" he has to crack during the Night, after Eloh.

I received it Night 4, and used it to inform some of my reads. I'd like to think it's Ozymandias giving us hints.

Otherwise, we're just being duped by the magician.

Elo received a message Night 3.

Right now I'm just trying to figure out how the cipher works.

As for the rest of the game goes... I find myself unfortunately fixated on MP07. I feel very strongly that he is Big Figure given his D1 shift on Sloonei, the way he subtly criticized a few votes on espers, and his bet with me. I think he made a cheater's bet- he knew he was going to lose it when I called him on it because losing the bet makes him look bad and allows him to act all contrite and tail-between-the-legs. That outcome and ensuing behavior should, in theory, give us pause.

I realize, however, that I often try to come up with the most evil, underhanded, and complex theories possible due to my overactive imagination.

I don't really know where to look after him. That will require some time re-reading a few people and further analysis in my spreadsheets.

[Russtifinko]

Hi all! Back from my trip and have read up. Posting what's immediately on my mind, and then I have to get my life back in order (e.g. shower, laundry, etc.). I will be around to talk most of the evening, even if I'm a bit in and out.

First, based on their posting in other threads, I fully believe both MM and MP are silenced today. It would be impossible for MP to not post if he weren't, and I don't think MM would say absolutely nothing, either.

LoRab, all we've seen from you for days is defending yourself. I get that you follow your own path, and you say you're involved, but the fact of the matter is you're not offering a ton of help right now, and for me the more you write huge defenses without saying much else, the worse you look. Who do YOU think is bad? Do you think the players accusing you are bad, or simply misguided civs? Do you think espers' baddie companion bussed him yesterday?

I'm still on my "Cookie is probably actually a newbie" line of thought, so I doubt I'd vote there today. Again, I was leaning civ on Bass/Bubbles. However, now that she's not been active since joining and there was no kill last night, she looks a lot worse to me. As others have pointed out, there are possibilities for a sent kill to not happen, but they seem fairly limited.

I'm still really torn on MP. If he's a baddie, he's doing a masterful job of having a reply to every single charge leveled at him. As I said before, some of his reasonings seem TOO tight. But I just keep coming back to whether I believe that a lone MP would be so ballsy on the Elo case. I think I'm leaning a slight no on that right now, but I waffle.

G-Man is a bit of a question mark to me as well, and I kind of have him lumped in with LoRab as "people who are hard to read and haven't really done much baddie hunting lately".

I wouldn't lynch MM today. I'd still like to see more from him, but I was leaning civ previously and I'm gonna stick with my gut on a day he's silenced.

Oh! And LoRab, why so interested in Rorschach's list? Even when Rico said you were on it?

Does anyone have a Rorschach list handy?

DDL (Golden, DH, Eloh)
Cookie (Golden, DH)
LoRab (Golden)
Scotty (Eloh)
MP (Eloh)

Do you have a complete list (including people already gone)?

Linki: I do agree with LoRab that Scotty seems to be putting an inordinate amount of trust in Ozymandias, who may not have any info anyone else doesn't have.

And G-Man, if MP had done that, it would be one of the ballerest baddie plays of all time. I know he is very good at being bad. I just can't decide if I think he's quite THAT good.

[G-Man]

Tiny Bubbles logged on today and yet no posts here. Tiny needs to come up big today or I will be very suspicious.

[Ricochet]

linkitis: @Ricochet: I meant a complete list of all of the players throughout the game who would be on the list--not just the ones who are still living.

Oh.

DDL (Golden, DH, Eloh)
Cookie (Golden, DH)
LoRab (Golden)
Scotty (Eloh)
MP (Eloh)
Long Con (Golden)

[LoRab]

Hi all! Back from my trip and have read up. Posting what's immediately on my mind, and then I have to get my life back in order (e.g. shower, laundry, etc.). I will be around to talk most of the evening, even if I'm a bit in and out.

First, based on their posting in other threads, I fully believe both MM and MP are silenced today. It would be impossible for MP to not post if he weren't, and I don't think MM would say absolutely nothing, either.

LoRab, all we've seen from you for days is defending yourself. I get that you follow your own path, and you say you're involved, but the fact of the matter is you're not offering a ton of help right now, and for me the more you write huge defenses without saying much else, the worse you look. Who do YOU think is bad? Do you think the players accusing you are bad, or simply misguided civs? Do you think espers' baddie companion bussed him yesterday?

Have you read my posts from today? I've mentioned suspects. And if people are making huge posts against me, why wouldn't I post defenses? And if I only have a limited amount of time/effort to spend playing mafia in a day, and a lot of that is taken up with the need to defend, then yeah, I'm going to defend, and figuring out other suspicions is going to be on the back burner. It's the nature of the game.

Maybe read my posts, and you'll see my suspicions.

Oh! And LoRab, why so interested in Rorschach's list? Even when Rico said you were on it?

Does anyone have a Rorschach list handy?

DDL (Golden, DH, Eloh)
Cookie (Golden, DH)
LoRab (Golden)
Scotty (Eloh)
MP (Eloh)

Do you have a complete list (including people already gone)?

I already knew I was on it; what does that matter and why would it make a difference in my being interested. I'm trying to figure out who Rorscharch might be, and who might be trying to get people who are on that list lynched, is why I'm interested.

And you mention that I was asking about this. And mention my point about not trusting Ozymandias (and my point was not that we don't know what he knows, but more that we don't know if he is trustworthy). And yet say that I'm not contributing to the conversation. In the same post. Which is it?

linkitis: Thanks!

[LoRab]

Meant to add.

@Russ: You seem to neglect considering that either of those players could fake being silenced.

[Ricochet]

I can't remember who said something about Dr Manhattan maybe being unlynchable? Given that the watchmen do not need to be alive to win, according to the descriptions, it would seem like an odd power to add. Survives the first attempt or two on life, maybe...but unlynchable doesn't seem likely, imho.

The unlynchable characters in Death Note that I was referencing too didn't need to be alive to win either, just fulfill a individual win con.

[LoRab]

I can't remember who said something about Dr Manhattan maybe being unlynchable? Given that the watchmen do not need to be alive to win, according to the descriptions, it would seem like an odd power to add. Survives the first attempt or two on life, maybe...but unlynchable doesn't seem likely, imho.

The unlynchable characters in Death Note that I was referencing too didn't need to be alive to win either, just fulfill a individual win con.

OK, then. I've never seen that combination. But I stand corrected.

[Ricochet]

I can't remember who said something about Dr Manhattan maybe being unlynchable? Given that the watchmen do not need to be alive to win, according to the descriptions, it would seem like an odd power to add. Survives the first attempt or two on life, maybe...but unlynchable doesn't seem likely, imho.

The unlynchable characters in Death Note that I was referencing too didn't need to be alive to win either, just fulfill a individual win con.

I'm also referencing this to maybe bait MP out of silence. If he's faking it, he must be in pains that he can't talk fluff about the game he hosted.

[G-Man]

Really tired of screwing around with the darn


Still not sure how I'll vote.

[Ricochet]

But serious thought, now. This is likely MP's second time being silenced, if it's genuine (he didn't confirm D2, but we all assumed it was obvious) - incidentally, this could be MM's second time as well (he hinted at being silenced D3, I think).

If Derf did, his intentions are pretty clear, he probably suspects MP is Mafia. Or retribution for Eloh. ([bantz]Or he wanted a quieter Day. [/bantz])

MP doing it to himself is not out of the question. MP doing it to himself and being BF is also not out of the question. I recall Epignosis being lynched in Hardy Salty Kipper after he silenced himself too many times - the civs rationale was why would Mafia keep silencing him instead of NK'ing him, if they can't stand him; and it worked!

If MP is civ and got silenced by BF, he [MP] did a pretty shit job the other night by saying "I have every intention of considering literally every player as the last mafia tomorrow". That doesn't create any kind of window of who would want to shut him up. He pointed a bit at Russ, plus had Cookie, LoRab and G-Man top of his updated list, but who knows, completely inconcludent.

[Scotty]

I'm on my phone again, so I'm not quoting anything, but this in response to @Cookie, point by point

-fair enough about your read of MP during the night phase. Though I'm usually in the camp of letting things out in all phases, I completely understand the reasoning of not revealing too much at night for fear of NK.
But your reasoning the next day was sparse at best, so I don't necessarily see a connection between your fear of being NK'd and your openness during the day.

-cheering up sad MP: awwww ok I'll let this pass
- on my read of your reads and is it mocking? Well, it might read as inherently mocking, though I define mocking as the intent of getting a negative emotional response out of someone. If that's the case, I apologize. That's just how I read your reads, nothing more than that.
-thinking Mp is mafia- ok. I just can't help but wonder what you're thinking when you point out something suspicious and in the same breath counter yourself with a positive viewpoint.

This one is BS-
-your skipped the first 2 days because your friend wasn't playing? So that's why you don't have a read on GMan or Bass? I don't believe that for a second. I seem to remember you finding the "in-topic" button underneath player names to look through people's history. The thread is here. I was literally DEAD for 2 days and I can still read through all the garbage of those days to get at least a viewpoint.
I'm rather new to mafia myself, and don't really know how anyone plays either (except like 3-4 people, though I don't know if they are civ in mafia in BoB). Maybe I'm just more intuitive than the normal person with how forums work but I find it hard to believe even if you're just getting used to these people's play styles, it exempts you from having an opinion either way.
Could it be that your teammate was lynched first day and you so became overwhelmed with your sudden responsibility of being on your own, posting thru your own merits, that you didn't know how to get a good grip on the game?
I don't know where you come from, and I don't know how your compatriots usually play there. But I don't see the excuse of your friend not playing as valid even in that home forum.

-if you listed your top suspects, you claim it should appear that you think they are mafia: that's not completely right, and your reasoning was weak at best. With no clear read on potential mafia, adding people to that suspect list holds little merit, IMHO.

-How do you know espers left for RL reasons? I don't remember anyone posting that reasoning, let alone him.

[Scotty]

I will be disappointed if MP gets lynched tonight, because I am still thinking he's at least not big figure. I haven't been right too many times about my reads this game, but a broke clock is still right twice a day.