Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Dragon D. Luffy]

If you are "leaning town" on me, then wouldn't I also be misguided?

But I don't think you read me, DDL. You claim I have "very little posts." I'm assuming you mean that I have "very few posts" and not very tiny posts. I have sixteen posts of varying sizes, anyway. Your claim is that these posts contain "sharp accusations."

I hope others reread me. Do you all think I have sharp accusations? I see only one (my tenth post) that I've held onto since yesterday evening (posts 14 & 15, and now this here 17). These sharp accusation(s) (I don't see how the plural form of the word is warranted) you, DDL, chalk up to "player style." That sounds like a subtle way to dismiss my accusation of you, which is my only accusation to date.

First, don't bother arguing grammar with me. You are an English teacher, as someone said. I'm a guy who has English as a second language. So yes, I'm going to make some stupid mistakes, and I'm not even gonna bother arguing them with you because you're obviously going to win.

Now, the difference between you and sanmateo is that I believe sanmateo is playing a very risky game. He is not trying to avoid looking scummy. While you have tunneled on me, he has tunneled HARD, making a lot of posts about me and attracting other people's attention. And he looks a lot more angry and emotional, like he really believes I'm mafia and wants to prove that despite the lack of arguments. So if I am to assume a scum player would try to avoid heat, then I have little reason to believe he is scum.

Now you, you are posting a lot less. You are also tunneling, but are making it in a way that doesn't attract much heat to you. That makes you more suspicious than sanmateo. Now, when a player makes few posts and tunnels, I see that as a scum flag, but your posts give me the impression that you are someone who values quality over quantity, and that you are using your energy in fewer posts, making the sharper accusations that I perceive. So that fits with a town character which I'm led to believe you are. That's what I meant about style.

See what I mean by giving yourself outs? The word "maybe" in your sentence served no purpose, as the prepositional phase ("if most of the scum is conveniently lurking") already implied it. Compare:

There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.
There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and 1-2 scum argue with each other.

"Maybe" (an adverb, by the way) doesn't change the meaning of the sentence at all. It's filler. However, you are now placing importance on the word, trying to get me to believe that it indicates you don't know how many Mafia are in the group, that you were just "aware of the possibility," a goal that serves no purpose if you are indeed a civilian; only Mafia would need to persuade people that they don't know how many Mafia are in the talkative crew.

That's the impression I get from your posts. Your first three, for example, reek of new guy trying hard to make it clear that he doesn't have BTSC.

So your point is that I'm mafia because I'm trying to convince people that I'm not mafia?

How does that even make sense? Yes, I've been trying to avoid making people think I'm mafia since the game started. Why wouldn't I? It's the freaking goal of the game. What did you expect me to do? Refuse to answer your posts and say "I'm a townie and townies don't need to prove anything"?

I'm already playing a risky game by calling people scummy left and right, it helps me if I at least try to make people believe I'm town. Again, why wouldn't I?

Does that work if you telegraph what your intentions are?
Is this really an attempt to get people to talk if they know you are trying to trip them up?
How do you make people talk?

This only makes sense if you read my post in a vaccum. If you looked at the rest of the conversation, you'd notice pretty much everyone was talking about their playing styles, explaining them to each other and questioning each others posts about how they were playing. And yes, I was being part of that. I suppose that's somewhat meta, since I was using a strategy and talking about it at the same time, but hey, that's how the conversation was going. It's not like there were any game events at that point to be discussed (such as votes or lynches), only people's posting styles.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

caught up. going to generate reads as i get opportunities here, i am ever-distracted by RL crap.

[Golden]

I think your style and my style are very similar, from what I've seen of you, or perhaps more accurately our philosophies are very similar. I think MP makes an apt comparison.

My method is not to provide reads across everyone (say, the MP rainbow method) but it is to interrogate and ask questions where I think I see something bad, and provides reads only on these people I feel I have a read on. I don't see much value in me saying 'I get a very slight civ vibe from x', especially at this point when such a read would, I think, be meaningless.

I'll defend people when I really think they are good. I'll go after people when I think they might be bad. And I'll honestly explain my thought processes in any case. Otherwise I'll more or less ignore the rest in terms of my input into the thread. I can understand why it bothers you for now because I haven't really provided much of a read yet beyond sanmateo giving me a ping. You won't be seeing a golden who gives no reads by day three, I can assure you.

[G-Man]

[G-Man]

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Golden, I'm not seeing you doing much interrogation like you say. You are mostly stating general facts about the game, like MP's meta, your theories about yesterday newbie chat, post activity, and telling stories about your previous games. But I'm not seeing much direct interaction between you and other players, be it reads, accusations, or interrogations. It feels like you're not getting yourself involved.

[Marmot]

If you are "leaning town" on me, then wouldn't I also be misguided?

But I don't think you read me, DDL. You claim I have "very little posts." I'm assuming you mean that I have "very few posts" and not very tiny posts. I have sixteen posts of varying sizes, anyway. Your claim is that these posts contain "sharp accusations."

I hope others reread me. Do you all think I have sharp accusations? I see only one (my tenth post) that I've held onto since yesterday evening (posts 14 & 15, and now this here 17). These sharp accusation(s) (I don't see how the plural form of the word is warranted) you, DDL, chalk up to "player style." That sounds like a subtle way to dismiss my accusation of you, which is my only accusation to date.

First, don't bother arguing grammar with me. You are an English teacher, as someone said. I'm a guy who has English as a second language. So yes, I'm going to make some stupid mistakes, and I'm not even gonna bother arguing them with you because you're obviously going to win.

Now, the difference between you and sanmateo is that I believe sanmateo is playing a very risky game. He is not trying to avoid looking scummy. While you have tunneled on me, he has tunneled HARD, making a lot of posts about me and attracting other people's attention. And he looks a lot more angry and emotional, like he really believes I'm mafia and wants to prove that despite the lack of arguments. So if I am to assume a scum player would try to avoid heat, then I have little reason to believe he is scum.

Now you, you are posting a lot less. You are also tunneling, but are making it in a way that doesn't attract much heat to you. That makes you more suspicious than sanmateo. Now, when a player makes few posts and tunnels, I see that as a scum flag, but your posts give me the impression that you are someone who values quality over quantity, and that you are using your energy in fewer posts, making the sharper accusations that I perceive. So that fits with a town character which I'm led to believe you are. That's what I meant about style.

Have you considered that Epignosis just thinks you are bad?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Have you considered that Epignosis just thinks you are bad?

No, but I hope that isn't the case.

And if it is, why is he bothering? We're supposed to hunt scum, not bad players.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Wait, you mean bad in the sense of bad player, or mafia?

If it's the later, then yes, it seems to me he thinks I'm mafia.

[Marmot]

Wait, you mean bad in the sense of bad player, or mafia?

If it's the later, then yes, it seems to me he thinks I'm mafia.

Hmm, I guess I did leave myself open to interpretation there.

But yes, I meant mafia. Scum is not a commonly used term on this site, as we use bad or baddie in its place. Some players here feel uncomfortable with the word, but I don't think any of those players are playing this game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i apologize in advance. some of these ISOs might end up really big. normally i'd collapse them within spoilers for the sake of your eyes, but yanno.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Day 1 ISO - acrosstheaether

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

Good point.

she has only put up 4 posts so far, so there isn't much to talk about. the one i've highlighted here seems the most meaningful to me because it lends support to the ongoing mass-case against DDL. she bro-fives Epignosis for his take but does not explain why his insight was significant to her. so i think she could rightly be accused of throwing more firewood on the pile, and the implications of that behavior hinge upon the alignment of DDL. i view DDL as more town than not, so that means this post troubles me.

Hi. Sorry for missing the day. I've been loaded to death with uni stuff and other stuff to do lately. How am I supposed to vote on the poll?

her absence was explained with university obligations. i believe her. it's also worth noting that in many recent games, she has been relatively uninvolved on Day 1 before playing a little harder later in the game -- if left alive to do so.

overall i read her null. GTMH (gun to my head), i'd lean negative.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Day 1 ISO - Bass_the_Clever

I really don't understand why so many people are throwing around DDL name. I could understand if people have played a game with him before and know his tells but this is his first game here and I have no read on him.
MM out of syndicate regulas who are you getting bad vibes from?
I also agree with splints MP is acting different to the new players and might be something to keep an eye on.

this post pinged me a lot, truly. it's important to state that it's again contingent upon my town lean on DDL being accurate. to me, this post bears the appearance of a player who anticipates a lynch of DDL and a town flip. in my experience, it is relatively common for scum players to speak out against erroneous Day 1 wagons. townies can do it too, so the way i differentiate my perspectives is to judge the reasons provided for standing in the potential lynchee's defense. Bass's reason is simply that everyone can't know DDL's tendencies because he's new -- which ignores the notion of face-value scumminess. i think this is a fundamental thing, and it's why i have stated i understand why people have suspected DDL despite my own disagreement. DDL himself probably understands it too, he's suggested as much with his comments about being an inevitable lynch.

this was Bass's first truly important post. and it doesn't look to me like this mindset of DDL defense was arrived upon naturally.

SEPARATELY, this post also contains a vague support of the continuing meta case against MP. and when support is lent to a case against a player in a vague way, i think that's inherently suspicious. "something to keep an eye on" is just a scummy phrase to employ imo. it smells of a soft setup to be revisited later assuming MP isn't the Day 1 lynch.

The one game that stands out in my mind was Dr.Who where you went after Zeek super hard and that was his first game on the syndicate.

LOL, yes, fair enough. But consider the following:

What if I genuinely don't suspect any of the new players?

Then it's fine I was just pointing out I agreed with splints that you were playing different then I have seen in the past. If I started to play different like if I started to posting a lot and I started pulling quotes would you not think something was up? Would you not want to watch me more closely?

I'd definitely think your behavior is different, but recognize that there could be many factors playing into your change of pace, including an influx of RL availability, or perhaps a desire to switch up your game for various possible reasons, etc.

Do you think I'm bad?

I'm not sure how I feel about you or anyone yet its only early day one.

Bass provided an explanation for his take on MP07 in this exchange (also including MP's rebuttals). the vague pledges to "watch more closely" are reasserted, before inevitably Bass seems to abandon the responsibility of actually taking a stance. on anyone.

overall i read him more scum than town.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*most recent pile of pictures*

yo G-man, i think you're trying to communicate with me. i see "Hay angry bear", which is probably "Hey JJJ"

but after that i lose you. try a new rebus my man!

[sanmateo]

damn

so many posts

im dehydrated, rocks need water to think. brb

[Golden]

Golden, I'm not seeing you doing much interrogation like you say. You are mostly stating general facts about the game, like MP's meta, your theories about yesterday newbie chat, post activity, and telling stories about your previous games. But I'm not seeing much direct interaction between you and other players, be it reads, accusations, or interrogations. It feels like you're not getting yourself involved.

I haven't said I've done interrogation. I've said I've not yet seen anything I feel is worth interrogating. I've said it again and again.

I'm not going to create noise just because other people think it will make me look better. I'm not (necessarily) going to give reads because people ask for them. I'm not interested in pursuing people because they are people and they are there. I'm only going to pursue people because I think they might be bad.

As for 'telling stories about previous games' - what, exactly, do you think the function of that was?

linki - I have to say, I am not a fan of the word scum. But it isn't something I take personally, and everyone should use language that feels most comfortable to them. I use 'baddie' and 'civvie', so DDL I think you can definitely take 'bad' that way here.

[Golden]

What is ISO?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Guys, one question, how can I change the word that appears under my username? The one that's "patsy", right now?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What is ISO?

isolated post history. i am analyzing each player within their unique histories.

[G-Man]

[Russtifinko]

First off, I just want to say I am thoroughly enjoying playing this game with all of you and that I hope sanmateo comes back feeling less frustrated (I understand the feeling) because I've been appreciating his input.

++++++++

Regarding my "different" style of play, Elohcin has provided a tangible reason, that I'm "cheerful", and several players have said that I seem more considerate of others' opinions. This is fair enough. But since it is clearly evident to practically everyone that I'm playing a different style, I have to know, is that all? What about my style is really different?

MP: was a big aspect at the beginning, but I kind of buy his and other people's justification that he is trying to adapt to multiple communities and his return to mafia. To be fair, his style of being nice to others is how he acts pretty much everywhere I talked to him.

I think this is a fair representation about what could possibly be different about my posting style, but I don't see how that would play into my alignment.

Bass says, for example, that it's something to keep on eye on. Yet clearly regardless of my two alignments (since we received two roles) I have been this way the entire game, correct? Or have I not? Can someone clarify here?

++++++++

Regarding civilians not winning unless they are alive, let me elaborate. It seemed to be a general trend when I played games at Lostpedia and affiliated mafia sites, so when I started hosting I set mine up that way, but over time I have grown less and less happy with this policy. As MM noted, in Death Note, I allowed any player to win if dead so long as their win condition is established, and I was very happy with it. The problem, I believe, that many have with letting the entire faction win (either civilians or mafia, but especially civilians) is that some civilians may have contributed practically nothing to the cause, and the sense of accomplishment that accompanies surviving until endgame and defeating mafia makes for a more satisfying and exclusive win title.

That said, there are absolutely no hard and fast rules here at this site when it comes to many of these things, even open setups or whatever. It's all up to every single individual host.

Personally, I plan on incorporating dead wins as much as I can for reasons that DDL stated, but I still like to make people work for their wins.

++++++++

It's interesting that Turnip Head has pulled the trigger on Golden because there's a weird vibe to him that I've been getting all game, but have been waiting to see how he'd continue throughout the Day period. The feeling I am receiving from Golden is that he isn't being entirely truthful; I also think some of his statements have been questionable, such as being worried about a new person being bandwagoned, etc., particularly when many people here at TS tend to at least allow players new to the site somewhat or an entire free pass on Day 1.

I'm going to try to refine my opinions on players and can elucidate this further when I update my next Rainbow List. I'm curious what Turnip Head has to say further as well.

++++++++

Here is a Gender Guide, which I can now actually make since I know everyone's gender (thanks to Golden correcting me on TinyBubbles). :P

I typically include these in my games when I'm hosting, but I don't think many hosts do. Hope this helps. Blue is male and pink is female.

acrosstheaether
Bass_the_Clever
birdwithteeth11
Black Rock
Dom
Dragon D. Luffy
Elohcin
Epignosis
fingersplints
G-Man
Golden
JaggedJimmyJay
Metalmarsh89
MovingPictures07
Roxy
sanmateo
Sloonei
TinyBubbles
Turnip Head

Thanks for the gender list, MP! I only knew about 12 of 19, so the help is appreciated!

Wait, what? This is terrible lol. This completely goes against the spirit of the game, imo. Which is that townies should work together to find scum and prioritize the team's victory over their own survival. If this is true, then I suppose it probably encourages the people on this site to be the game badly.

I mean, if all my effort to catch scum will be rendered moot since I might get day 1 lynched for putting myself in the spotlight, then I might as well shut up and try not to be too productive instead, if only to maximise my chances of survival. Seriously, this is beyond terrible.

Different people take a different approach to it.

I tend to get more satisfaction out of the town winning than I get out of a shiny winners banner.

In one sense it encourages people to be poor civilians, certainly. In another, it's just a different kind of game, not a 'worse' kind of game.

In any event, the existence of so many newbies with a different style may shake the meta.

Executive decision: Dead civs can win in this game. Economics is all about aligning incentives properly, and not allowing dead civs to win means they're incentivized to prioritize survival over getting baddies. It's a conflict of interest inherent in their win conditions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i'll try to use the word "mafia" instead of scum. apologies in advance if i forget in some places. i can understand the word being seen as unsavory.

[sanmateo]

Has anyone considered that G-Man is pulling a gambit, isn't actually cursed, and is skating by on Day 1?

Why did a couple of players automatically dismiss any future suspicion of him assuming he's cursed?

this is a good point, besides can a cursed townie be any help at all town? i havent played a game with a cursed player yet

actually i did play a game with a silencer which is somewhat similar i guess?

[Golden]

I really don't understand why so many people are throwing around DDL name. I could understand if people have played a game with him before and know his tells but this is his first game here and I have no read on him.
MM out of syndicate regulas who are you getting bad vibes from?
I also agree with splints MP is acting different to the new players and might be something to keep an eye on.

this post pinged me a lot, truly. it's important to state that it's again contingent upon my town lean on DDL being accurate. to me, this post bears the appearance of a player who anticipates a lynch of DDL and a town flip. in my experience, it is relatively common for scum players to speak out against erroneous Day 1 wagons.

This I buy completely.

Also - G-Man says 'hey JJ, why so Gary Oldman?' Or is it 'why so Sirius'. Yes. Why so Sirius. Got it

linki - russti's declaration, ok, it's on.

[sanmateo]

this game has been somewhat frustrating for me, there is a bunch of players who havent posted anything game relevant and then there is some people who come in quote a post and say "yeah this is suspicious" without really explaining anything, like why???? im dumb as a fucking rock yall, help me out

so im just gonna go play video games with my little cousin and i'll come back read thru people's histories and drop a vote later on

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Thanks, Russ. This is awesome!

And I've played a game with a dog once, so that's what I know of post restrictions.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread. ... st51796157

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - birdwithteeth11

MovingPictures07, one might assert you've made a concerted effort here to earn Bass's early good graces without having to commit yourself to a truly positive read -- even if minor.

Yeah. That's what I got from MP's comment before this about bass. But again, only one Day 0 interaction. So not sure how concrete this is yet. I'll file it away in the ol' memory bank for later.

Unfortunately, my catch-up is going to be temporarily stalled. Will be back later to finish it.

BWT11 hasn't gotten involved yet, as he's been playing catchup while otherwise engaged. that's cool, RL happens. i highlight the post above because it's the only one so far in which he has made a comment about a game-relevant discussion. he seconds a very early poo fling i directed against MP. i was mostly playing the RVS game with that post, so i didn't expect it to get any support (because i had no conviction behind it myself). that said, for a player who is just reading the thread at the best pace he can, i don't think this is an alarming thing. he had a thought and put it up.

overall the most suspicious thing about this guy is that he hasn't played yet. hopefully he finds more opportunities in due time. null read.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Day 1 ISO - Black Rock

Just catching up here. You guys have been busy today.

This post is where I'm at.

I see that DDL thinks all those who've been posting tonight look like town. I disagree, but not only that, I highly doubt that none of the mafia are talking. I just can't see that being the case. Honestly, I see MP's over-helpful behavior as suspicious. I know we have a lot of new players and he wants to be helpful, but there's just something fishy about it.

I really don't see MP as being overly helpful. I see it more as him excited about the new players and helping them out. I would expect this behaviour from MP and I would expect you to see this as well.

i like this post. i am glad to be able to say that when so this point BR has only made four of them. her take on MP mirrors my own. i know i don't know MP's meta here, but i know it on RYM and i think he's been entirely within believable parameters so far. what i like about BR's post most is the last bit: she doesn't merely defend MP, but she also turns it against Elo. that's a bold maneuver to take on Day 1, especially in this environment where people have stated their tendency to hesitate before making themselves noticed on Day 1. there are two stances visible in this post and i find myself agreeing with both of them right now. mind-melding.

I didn't realize I defended you. I thought I was just saying how I perceived it. I felt Elohcin was trying to blow it out of proportion which made me eye her. I guess my words could have been perceived as defending.

this post is a little less pleasing to me, just because i think the "defense" in her comments about MP before was self-evident. people were critical of MP and BR provided a reason why they shouldn't be. this could be a semantic nitpick though so i am not immediately worried.

overall i read her as more town than scum.

[Epignosis]

If you are "leaning town" on me, then wouldn't I also be misguided?

But I don't think you read me, DDL. You claim I have "very little posts." I'm assuming you mean that I have "very few posts" and not very tiny posts. I have sixteen posts of varying sizes, anyway. Your claim is that these posts contain "sharp accusations."

I hope others reread me. Do you all think I have sharp accusations? I see only one (my tenth post) that I've held onto since yesterday evening (posts 14 & 15, and now this here 17). These sharp accusation(s) (I don't see how the plural form of the word is warranted) you, DDL, chalk up to "player style." That sounds like a subtle way to dismiss my accusation of you, which is my only accusation to date.

First, don't bother arguing grammar with me. You are an English teacher, as someone said. I'm a guy who has English as a second language. So yes, I'm going to make some stupid mistakes, and I'm not even gonna bother arguing them with you because you're obviously going to win.

Ah, no.

I am not arguing grammar with you (and your English appears quite capable to me). I am arguing over the content of your posts. You said I made "sharp accusations." That means you observed more than one. I have only had one. You attributed my "sharp accusations" to how I play (which you don't know), which implies I am gunning for you just because this is what tickles my fancy.

Now, the difference between you and sanmateo is that I believe sanmateo is playing a very risky game. He is not trying to avoid looking scummy. While you have tunneled on me, he has tunneled HARD, making a lot of posts about me and attracting other people's attention. And he looks a lot more angry and emotional, like he really believes I'm mafia and wants to prove that despite the lack of arguments. So if I am to assume a scum player would try to avoid heat, then I have little reason to believe he is scum.

Without looking this up, I feel like I should win the award for getting people's attention on you, not sanmateo.

Now you, you are posting a lot less. You are also tunneling, but are making it in a way that doesn't attract much heat to you. That makes you more suspicious than sanmateo. Now, when a player makes few posts and tunnels, I see that as a scum flag, but your posts give me the impression that you are someone who values quality over quantity, and that you are using your energy in fewer posts, making the sharper accusations that I perceive. So that fits with a town character which I'm led to believe you are. That's what I meant about style.

It's so fun playing with people from another planet on the web.

See what I mean by giving yourself outs? The word "maybe" in your sentence served no purpose, as the prepositional phase ("if most of the scum is conveniently lurking") already implied it. Compare:

There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.
There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and 1-2 scum argue with each other.

"Maybe" (an adverb, by the way) doesn't change the meaning of the sentence at all. It's filler. However, you are now placing importance on the word, trying to get me to believe that it indicates you don't know how many Mafia are in the group, that you were just "aware of the possibility," a goal that serves no purpose if you are indeed a civilian; only Mafia would need to persuade people that they don't know how many Mafia are in the talkative crew.

That's the impression I get from your posts. Your first three, for example, reek of new guy trying hard to make it clear that he doesn't have BTSC.

So your point is that I'm mafia because I'm trying to convince people that I'm not mafia?

How does that even make sense? Yes, I've been trying to avoid making people think I'm mafia since the game started. Why wouldn't I? It's the freaking goal of the game. What did you expect me to do? Refuse to answer your posts and say "I'm a townie and townies don't need to prove anything"?

That's the beauty of Mafia. "I'm a civ, I'm a civ." Everybody will say such things. For me, the evidence lies between the lines. And what you just did with this part of your post is offer a false dilemma. Either you answer the way you did, or you refuse to answer my post. Those are the only two things you could have done.

Except they're not.

I'm already playing a risky game by calling people scummy left and right, it helps me if I at least try to make people believe I'm town. Again, why wouldn't I?

I don't think you've been calling people "scummy" left and right. I think you've been downright blendy. Posting a lot, but saying little. And yes, planting outs for yourself.

Does that work if you telegraph what your intentions are?
Is this really an attempt to get people to talk if they know you are trying to trip them up?
How do you make people talk?

This only makes sense if you read my post in a vaccum. If you looked at the rest of the conversation, you'd notice pretty much everyone was talking about their playing styles, explaining them to each other and questioning each others posts about how they were playing. And yes, I was being part of that. I suppose that's somewhat meta, since I was using a strategy and talking about it at the same time, but hey, that's how the conversation was going. It's not like there were any game events at that point to be discussed (such as votes or lynches), only people's posting styles.

But you're in a new environment. It doesn't make sense to announce what you're trying to do if you want genuine reactions. Wouldn't it make more sense to just do it and see what happens?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

G-man, cut me some slack pal! i posted a recording of myself singing terribly. i'm not all serious.

[G-Man]

Has anyone considered that G-Man is pulling a gambit, isn't actually cursed, and is skating by on Day 1?

[Golden]

I'm not impressed with MP's angle on G-Man.

What's the value of such a gambit on day one? Why would G-Man do it? Why draw attention to yourself in that way? What would it achieve? MP, what would be the value as a baddie to faking this curse on day one?

[G-Man]

G-man, cut me some slack pal! i posted a recording of myself singing terribly. i'm not all serious.

[G-Man]

[Tangrowth]

DDL, top suspect. Go.

[Tangrowth]

I'm not impressed with MP's angle on G-Man.

What's the value of such a gambit on day one? Why would G-Man do it? Why draw attention to yourself in that way? What would it achieve? MP, what would be the value as a baddie to faking this curse on day one?

Lolwut?

I even admitted I was throwing a question out there and that I had no suspicion of G-Man.

All of the questions that you're asking are WIFOM.

Why are you flinging crap in my direction with such WIFOM-filled questions?

May I direct you to how long it took Uzziah to get lynched in Biblical? I will say no more since that game is ongoing.

[Tangrowth]

I think your style and my style are very similar, from what I've seen of you, or perhaps more accurately our philosophies are very similar. I think MP makes an apt comparison.

My method is not to provide reads across everyone (say, the MP rainbow method) but it is to interrogate and ask questions where I think I see something bad, and provides reads only on these people I feel I have a read on. I don't see much value in me saying 'I get a very slight civ vibe from x', especially at this point when such a read would, I think, be meaningless.

I'll defend people when I really think they are good. I'll go after people when I think they might be bad. And I'll honestly explain my thought processes in any case. Otherwise I'll more or less ignore the rest in terms of my input into the thread. I can understand why it bothers you for now because I haven't really provided much of a read yet beyond sanmateo giving me a ping. You won't be seeing a golden who gives no reads by day three, I can assure you.

Alright, Golden. Come on. Am I bad or am I not?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Day 1 ISO - Dom

he made a post on Day 0, and i think it was before the role switch? either way, that's it. i hereby confirm that this player exists. is this degree of silence typical of him?

null read.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Day 1 ISO - Dragon D. Luffy

this one is important for obvious reasons. many view him negatively. i view him positively. let's dig in.

I'm curious too. This Day 0 has been fun, but it's hard to make reads on anyone when almost none of the posts are about the game. It's easier when everyone is accusing each other. I suppose that's what Day 1s are for.

Btw, I think it's very interesting how Jay started talking about making cases right after the second role was handed out. Which is interesting since the game was pretty much a blank state at that point. Though to be fair, he did say he had nothing at that point.

That could indicate an alignment change. If a player who has done nothing gets a new role and suddenly starts being proactive, it might mean a townie who became mafia, or vice-versa. Just a theory.

after a decent number of chatty Day 0 posts, DDL got involved with real game stuff here. i like his mindset here, even if his eventual conclusion is essentially null. he made a real observation about my behavior and expressed it. this prompted my response, and eventually a larger conversation. i had previously stated that i like to dive headfirst into Day 1 and generate mass content. and with that in mind, he very deliberately poked me. he didn't have to encourage my attention upon himself, but he did it anyway. this looks to me like a player who likes to generate reaction-based Day 1 reads, and he made his first attempt here.

The main point of this was to see your reaction, and the reaction of others to what me/you say. I usually do that by directly calling people scum, but since there was barely any evidence for that, I went for some fringe theory. Throwing an idea on the wall and seeing whether it stickes or not, and how.

Well, in a practical sense, being more proactive means you are town now, and your posting style seems to suggest that, assuming you're not faking it. Though the opposite could also be true, specially since I don't know you. Some players like to stay in the shadows when they're town.

Now, Slooney did say you always play like this, so the theory is probably moot.

when i prodded him in response to his prodding me, he confirmed my assumption. he wanted my reaction and said whatever he could to me to generate it. in this way his play reminds me a lot of my own, which is why i asserted earlier that he has played a similar game to me so far.

And I like to call people scum. Defenses are a great way to get reactions.

you've not called anyone scum. in fact, you've made assertions of scumminess but in each case offered a caveat to relieve the pressure inherent to those assertions.

ergo, you're scum.

Thing is, I don't think any of the active players are scum right now. If I had to vote right now, I'd vote for one of the inactive ones. I only see small possibilities. So I explore them since I don't have anything better. But I don't want to directly call people scum on something that is only a small possibility, at the risk of saying something stupid. When I see someone that looks more scummy than not to me, i'll point it out.

yep. again he echoes my own sentiments. he engaged the active players because they were there to be engaged. and after having done so, he didn't feel the inclination to carry on suspecting any of us. my feelings were much the same in that regard. and that's why we've both been vocal since that point about the importance of expanding the continuing discussion beyond just the 5 players who kickstarted the game.

Anyway, my read on sanmateo, since it's the only one I haven't read yet.

The fact that he is being active and suspecting of me is a good thing, as opposed to what I said about MP. But I don't like how he is tunneling on me hard. I've hardly seen him talking about anyone else, and I'd like to see his opinions on other people. It gives me some scum deja-vus. May be a townie whos got a strong belief that I'm scum and wants to pursue that, or may be a scummy wanting to tunnel on the resident "townie who talks a lot" so he can fill his post quota. Either way, considering multiple people seem to be suspecting him, his possible scum strategy doesn't seem to be working.

Anyway, I like what Golden said about wanting other people to talk. Including we 4 newbies and MP, only 5 people have talked this night. The other 14 (including Golden who only showed up now) have been silent. Where are the others? There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.

this post drew the ire of Epignosis and perhaps others, particularly for the second "paragraph". here's why i don't agree with the negative assessment: detractors are focusing on the "maybe 1-2 scum" bit instead of the larger point being made. DDL is suggesting that regardless of the alignments of 5 players being discussed, it is bad for town for those players to be the sole focus of everyone else. and that's absolutely correct. even if he were to narrow his focus to that pool of 5 as Epi suggested he should have, he'd then be ignoring the vast majority of the player population. he'd have a decent shot at 1 scum that might not even be there in that pool of 5 and no chance at reading any other scum outside the pool. that's not a good idea and DDL recognized that.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 55#p143155 -- here's the post where he provides reads of numerous players

NOTE: if you are suspicious of DDL, then i think you are obligated to look at this post and decide whether he is fabricating reads or perhaps you've misjudged.. this is his substantive post so far, and to ignore it as one of his detractors is lazy at best or scummy at worst. my take:

he has given real stances and not waffled around on the fence. he is suspicious of acrosstheaether, Elo, and finger. he leans town on his nemesis Epignosis. he leans town on G-man. he leans strongly town on me. he is inviting the wrath of some players and inherently narrowing the eyes of others (mostly Epi by calling him a town read). if he is scum, then we must collectively acknowledge that he has deliberately been treading very dangerously throughout the entirety of Day 1 so far. and in this post, he increases the danger of his playstyle a decent amount further. moreover, i don't think his reads here smell unfair or underdeveloped. within the context of Day 1 content which is always a bit limited, he has taken stances where he can. and where he can't he hasn't. that's townie behavior imo.

otherwise his posts continue to feature mostly self-defense against a constant attack from essentially all sides. and i like his candor and content in those defenses.

overall i read him more town than scum.

[Golden]

So, your answer is that G-Man would do it for the wifom?

[Epignosis]

Guys, one question, how can I change the word that appears under my username? The one that's "patsy", right now?

Post more.

[birdwithteeth11]

Alright. I think I'm caught up for now.

- So far, I feel like all the new people who are posting a lot is refreshing, but I feel weighed down by it. In that, given they're new and posting a lot, it's hard for me to wrap my head around anything completely yet. Especially since it's only Day 1 and I'm trying to do this while multitasking.

- I have yet to see anything that really piques my interest. Or is worthy of me fully commenting on. The only thing of note to me so far is Epig calling out Luffy for giving himself outs with some of the opinions/statements he's made so far. And he's coming off to me as trying really hard to blend in. But again, only a Day 1 read.

- To say I've been extremely busy is an understatement. 3 of the last 4 weeks I've worked 6 days, I work 6 days this week, and will be working 6 next week. I have very little time and energy for mafia right now, but the theme of the game interested me enough to make my break much shorter than I thought it would be. When something happens that I think is a bigger deal than what I've seen, I'll jump in a bit more. But for now, I'll at least do enough to keep up and post any current thoughts I have.

Linki: Of course, there's 5 new posts in the time it took for me to type that too. Oh well.

[Tangrowth]

So, your answer is that G-Man would do it for the wifom?

I'm not saying why G-Man would do it. There is incentive for him to fake it; there is incentive to act almost any possible way in a mafia game. I was merely throwing out a possibility precisely because people were willing to give him a Day 1 pass automatically.

I often struggle to get past Day 1. If I was mafia and knew I could get past mafia by coming up with a fake curse, then shrug it off with a viable explanation thereafter, why wouldn't I do it?

That said, I don't believe that's what G-Man did. Occam's razor suggests he actually is cursed. But I have no opinion on the matter. I don't really know.

I find it odd you're harping on one of the absolute least important posts I've made in this thread, especially since I followed up that post with what I thought was a reasonable explanation of my non-suspicion of G-Man.

[Tangrowth]

I could get past Day 1* not mafia, lol

[Epignosis]

Anyway, my read on sanmateo, since it's the only one I haven't read yet.

The fact that he is being active and suspecting of me is a good thing, as opposed to what I said about MP. But I don't like how he is tunneling on me hard. I've hardly seen him talking about anyone else, and I'd like to see his opinions on other people. It gives me some scum deja-vus. May be a townie whos got a strong belief that I'm scum and wants to pursue that, or may be a scummy wanting to tunnel on the resident "townie who talks a lot" so he can fill his post quota. Either way, considering multiple people seem to be suspecting him, his possible scum strategy doesn't seem to be working.

Anyway, I like what Golden said about wanting other people to talk. Including we 4 newbies and MP, only 5 people have talked this night. The other 14 (including Golden who only showed up now) have been silent. Where are the others? There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.

this post drew the ire of Epignosis and perhaps others, particularly for the second "paragraph". here's why i don't agree with the negative assessment: detractors are focusing on the "maybe 1-2 scum" bit instead of the larger point being made. DDL is suggesting that regardless of the alignments of 5 players being discussed, it is bad for town for those players to be the sole focus of everyone else. and that's absolutely correct. even if he were to narrow his focus to that pool of 5 as Epi suggested he should have, he'd then be ignoring the vast majority of the player population. he'd have a decent shot at 1 scum that might not even be there in that pool of 5 and no chance at reading any other scum outside the pool. that's not a good idea and DDL recognized that.

I didn't suggest that DDL should have done any such thing. Please don't twist what I said.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Epi, imma reply to your latest posts tomorrow. I gotta go sleep too.

DDL, top suspect. Go.

Golden. For reasons already stated. I don't like how is alleged meta is one of little involvement with the game. But I'd like to see other people's confirmations that this is indeed his meta, and that he doesn't normally engage people. I think Turnip would be able to answer that if he showed up. But if people tell me that Golden is usually more pro-active, then we have a problem.

(dis)honorable mention to acrosstheater, whose activity has been limited to say "good point" to someone else's scumread. Seriously, if she doesn't post for the rest of the phase, that will raise a pretty big scum flag for me.

[Tangrowth]

I think Golden's description of his meta is somewhat inaccurate, but that's just me. I agree that he doesn't do lists or anything like that, but I do think he engages multiple players more than he lets on; other than that, it seems accurate from what I've seen.

That said, I don't understand why a mafia Golden would fail to meet his meta.

I think his reasons for his somewhat subdued play so far are legit; surely there are others that have contributed less than he has.

Nonetheless, I can't help but doubt him at the moment.

[Epignosis]

I think Golden's description of his meta is somewhat inaccurate, but that's just me. I agree that he doesn't do lists or anything like that, but I do think he engages multiple players more than he lets on; other than that, it seems accurate from what I've seen.

That said, I don't understand why a mafia Golden would fail to meet his meta.

I think his reasons for his somewhat subdued play so far are legit; surely there are others that have contributed less than he has.

Nonetheless, I can't help but doubt him at the moment.

My biggest problem with you is that I've been gunning for DDL hard and you haven't said a word about it: Not a thing that I've noticed beyond a vague generality in your "rainbow post" (which looked more like a sack of shit than a rainbow, but carry on).

[Marmot]

- I have yet to see anything that really piques my interest. Or is worthy of me fully commenting on. The only thing of note to me so far is Epig calling out Luffy for giving himself outs with some of the opinions/statements he's made so far. And he's coming off to me as trying really hard to blend in. But again, only a Day 1 read.

Who is trying really hard to blend in? Epignosis or Dragon D. Luffy?

[Golden]

I find it odd you're harping on one of the absolute least important posts I've made in this thread, especially since I followed up that post with what I thought was a reasonable explanation of my non-suspicion of G-Man.

I find it odd that I make one single post about it and you say I'm 'flinging crap', and after two posts I'm 'harping on'....

Now this is what I'm talking about.

Yes MP, I think you sound bad right now. Roger Rabbit comes to mind.

DDL - twice you've now misrepresented my own words on my meta. Makes me look at you.

[Marmot]

So, your answer is that G-Man would do it for the wifom?

I'm not saying why G-Man would do it. There is incentive for him to fake it; there is incentive to act almost any possible way in a mafia game. I was merely throwing out a possibility precisely because people were willing to give him a Day 1 pass automatically.

I often struggle to get past Day 1. If I was mafia and knew I could get past mafia by coming up with a fake curse, then shrug it off with a viable explanation thereafter, why wouldn't I do it?

That said, I don't believe that's what G-Man did. Occam's razor suggests he actually is cursed. But I have no opinion on the matter. I don't really know.

I find it odd you're harping on one of the absolute least important posts I've made in this thread, especially since I followed up that post with what I thought was a reasonable explanation of my non-suspicion of G-Man.

Why do you say it is interesting that no one else has a view on G-Man's current status (when that isn't even true) when you yourself don't have an opinion? What do you mean by interesting?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Anyway, my read on sanmateo, since it's the only one I haven't read yet.

The fact that he is being active and suspecting of me is a good thing, as opposed to what I said about MP. But I don't like how he is tunneling on me hard. I've hardly seen him talking about anyone else, and I'd like to see his opinions on other people. It gives me some scum deja-vus. May be a townie whos got a strong belief that I'm scum and wants to pursue that, or may be a scummy wanting to tunnel on the resident "townie who talks a lot" so he can fill his post quota. Either way, considering multiple people seem to be suspecting him, his possible scum strategy doesn't seem to be working.

Anyway, I like what Golden said about wanting other people to talk. Including we 4 newbies and MP, only 5 people have talked this night. The other 14 (including Golden who only showed up now) have been silent. Where are the others? There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.

this post drew the ire of Epignosis and perhaps others, particularly for the second "paragraph". here's why i don't agree with the negative assessment: detractors are focusing on the "maybe 1-2 scum" bit instead of the larger point being made. DDL is suggesting that regardless of the alignments of 5 players being discussed, it is bad for town for those players to be the sole focus of everyone else. and that's absolutely correct. even if he were to narrow his focus to that pool of 5 as Epi suggested he should have, he'd then be ignoring the vast majority of the player population. he'd have a decent shot at 1 scum that might not even be there in that pool of 5 and no chance at reading any other scum outside the pool. that's not a good idea and DDL recognized that.

I didn't suggest that DDL should have done any such thing. Please don't twist what I said.

you suggested he should have within the context of DDL's mindset at your portrayed it. so yes, you could say that context isn't representative of your own ideal scenario. but you didn't say it then so i proceeded as i did with my commentary.

do you take any issue with my defense of DDL in general? you're his biggest detractor right now and i am probably his biggest defender. so we would apparently disagree on a lot.

[birdwithteeth11]

- I have yet to see anything that really piques my interest. Or is worthy of me fully commenting on. The only thing of note to me so far is Epig calling out Luffy for giving himself outs with some of the opinions/statements he's made so far. And he's coming off to me as trying really hard to blend in. But again, only a Day 1 read.

Who is trying really hard to blend in? Epignosis or Dragon D. Luffy?

Dragon D. Luffy

[JaggedJimmyJay]

you suggested he should have within the context of DDL's mindset at your portrayed it. so yes, you could say that context isn't representative of your own ideal scenario. but you didn't say it then so i proceeded as i did with my commentary.

do you take any issue with my defense of DDL in general? you're his biggest detractor right now and i am probably his biggest defender. so we would apparently disagree on a lot.

[/quote][/quote]

EBWOP: "at your" = "as you"