Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

#951

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Poll's closed.

acrosstheaether, Black Rock, Dom, and TinyBubbles have all missed the vote.

Sorry about that. Today was a shit show for me. I am so many pages behind so I don't even know what went on during the lynch.

#952

Quick reminder: make sure to cc thellama73 on PMs! For now it is not a huge deal, but if you write something tomorrow and don't cc him, you probably won't get a response until Monday.

#953

RAINBOW SOCKMAN READS #4

sanmateo -- (#1 Very slight mafia read, #2 Very slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- ELEVATE! My top town read, I feel pretty confident that he is a genuine mafia hunter this game through reading his post content in real time today.

Sloonei -- (#1 Very slight civilian read, #2 Very slight mafia read, #3 Very slight civilian read) -- ELEVATE! His mafia hunting has been top notch and seems genuine. Up he goes. Don't feel confident enough to raise him above moderate though.

JaggedJimmyJay -- (#1 Very slight civilian read, #2, #3 no change) -- ELEVATE! I was skeptical for a little while despite my initial very slight civilian read of him, and still am to a lesser extent, but Jay seems to be genuinely mafia hunting and doing what he does best. Up he goes just a bit here. Very much looking forward to his thoughts tonight. Slight read seems appropriate, since Jay is a beast, and I could still see him being bad with the Bass vote today.

Black Rock -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight mafia read, #3 Very slight civilian read) -- In #3, I said: "BR answered my call to hear more and her subsequent contributions to the game have been in typical BR meta (she gets more active and assertive as the game progresses) and reasonable. Back up to very slightly civilian she goes." This still stands.
Dragon D. Luffy -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- DROP! Still think he reads genuine, but there's no denying that his vote makes him drop, and his fate could easily be mafia pending Epi's alignment. Appreciate that he ramped up the solid contributions though.
Roxy -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 no change, #3 Very slight civilian read) -- In #3, I said: "I want to hear more from her, but her posts thus far have been opinionated in typical Roxy fashion. Pending more contributions I can get a more solid (and accurate) read on her... hopefully (though doubtful)." Pretty much still stands. I look forward to hearing more from her.

acrosstheaether -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- In #3, I said: She has graced us with her presence, which appears relatively similar to RYM Day 1, in which she tends to lack confidence in any reads she may develop, so she nonchalantly does not bother to develop them, a la A Person for us Syndicate players (but perhaps not as extreme). She also said she is busy with uni which seems reasonable. I'm not sure what to make of her yet. Since she missed the vote, there is nothing to really analyze since then. This still stands.
birdwithteeth11 -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- In #3, I said: "Seems like normal BWT and I know he is very busy. Not sure what to make of him yet." I would feel slightly better about him due to his post content, but his vote for Golden cancels it out, so I'm still not sure what to make of him.
Dom -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- In #3, I said: "POST MORE, DOM. Dom likes to question people aggressively and often has some good insight, even if we don't often see eye to eye. In addition, in my first game ever, Dom pursued me like crazy and was right, and it started a beautiful but complicated mafia rivalry between us. I know he's capable of really contributing to this game, but I also know his life is crazy busy at the moment. So while I'm certain it's not an attempt to lay low on purpose... POST MORE." This still stands, but it seems he's been replaced by the most insane player on The Syndicate.
G-Man -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- In #3, I said: "No idea what the hell is going on with G-Man. I really don't know if he's cursed (which would be very strange in a Day 1 before any night actions) or if he's faking it to get a Day 1 free pass (if he is, then brilliant but super risky move on his part, but it seems unlikely). So ?????????" This still stands. His vote for Golden could be sketchy though.
Metalmarsh89 -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- In #3, I said: "MM seems to be playing in a manner that's relatively par for the course, though I'm glad to not see the self-vote this go-round. It's probably a stretch to say he "usually" self-votes but he has been known to do so out of frustration as well as to measure responses and put pressure on other players. Usually he does engage actively in discussion but can be a bit slow to develop reads; consequently, his Day 1 vote here doesn't surprise me, but I do wish he would have explained it more or withheld it to more accurately represent his feelings. I can't make heads or tails of MM yet." This largely still stands. His vote for Golden was sketchy, but then again, I could just as easily have seen civilian MM do it. Still no idea what to make of MM, thinking on it.
Turnip Head -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- DROP! His vote for Golden is a bit sketchy, and I'm just really unsure what to make of him. Back down to null read for him.

fingersplints -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- DROP! Dropped her down to very slightly mafia read based on gut interpretation of her posts and her inability to fully substantiate reads, but I could be way off base. Having reevaluated, this is incredibly, incredibly slight.
TinyBubbles -- (#1 and #2 No read or unsure, #3 Very slight mafia read) -- In #3, I said: "She's new not only to The Syndicate but to mafia in general, so I'm trying to keep that into consideration, but the declaration of intent to random vote set of MP ALARM BELLS OF RAGE, especially given how much has happened in this game. For now, I will give her the BotD, since I do realize this game is surely intimidating for a new-to-mafia player's second game ever, especially if that first game was extremely low key. But dropping her to my very slight mafia read is a prod to get into the game." This still stands.

Bass_the_Clever -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight mafia read, #3 Slight mafia read) -- In #3, I said: "And down he goes, but only to the "slight" read level, since I'm still far from sure we're seeing a baddie Bass here. That said, I'm really putting the pressure on him now by making him my top mafia read at the moment. Good points: I feel he engaged me and the thread in what he is thinking more than he has in recent games. I hope he continues this in the future. Bad points: His throwing out my behavior as something to keep an eye on, as if to bandwagon. Not having any suspects (though this is par for the course). He finally started throwing out slight pings but only after I prodded him considerably, which lines up with meta, but makes me feel as though he's hiding something from me. He could be a civilian hiding something, but he shouldn't be, and I really want him to engage more." These feelings still stand, pending his opinions as well as Elo and Epi's alignments.

Epignosis -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- DROP! In theory, I could still see an out on him being civilian, but only when considering meta in that he plays a very mafia-like game regardless of alignment. That said, when actually analyzing his behavior, it appears incredibly deceptive and intentionally manipulative, designed to deceive. Golden, the only confirmed civilian, who also has an amazing mafia hunting ability, also said with 100% confidence that Epi is bad. Read remains strong even though I'm not 100% convinced (instead, just strongly convinced), so being honest with myself he is just very slightly above Elo, hence the distinction.

Elohcin -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- DROP! Fixated on me all game, then suddenly had opinions on a ton of players with no explanation, including "leaning civilian" on Golden. Then continues to subtly push heat on me until I had an emotional breakdown, upon which she says that both (1) the breakdown doesn't bode well for me yet (2) votes Golden with literally no explanation. Could it get any objectively more scummy than this?

For reference:
Very strong civilian read
Strong civilian read
Moderate civilian read
Slight civilian read
Very slight civilian read
No read or unsure
Very slight mafia read
Slight mafia read
Moderate mafia read
Strong mafia read
Very strong mafia read

Dropping this here just in case I die, since I have to truly make up for lost time RL-wise. Highly doubt I'll be back before Night 1 ends. Of course, I say that now, but it's possible I'll be back anyway being the mafia addict I am. (Added just for you, Epi). :P

Sockman out!

#954

Are we allowed to night talk?

#955

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Are we allowed to night talk?

???

#956

Lucky for you guys I can't stay out of here, even if it's only for a few seconds. :P

Yeah, talking is allowed at Night here in practically every game.

Now BBL.

#957

#958

sanmateo wrote:
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Are we allowed to night talk?
???

First place I play games where night talking is allowed by default. Though I've played role madness game once that allowed it.

Also you asked me what I think of Epi. I had an opinion he was town last phase. Now I don't know. I'm gonna do some posts analysis before I decide what I think.

#959

How do people feel about the other two players (MP and Bass) who received multiple votes, in the wake of Golden's lynch?

#960

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Elohcin -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- DROP! Fixated on me all game, then suddenly had opinions on a ton of players with no explanation, including "leaning civilian" on Golden. Then continues to subtly push heat on me until I had an emotional breakdown, upon which she says that both (1) the breakdown doesn't bode well for me yet (2) votes Golden with literally no explanation. Could it get any objectively more scummy than this?

i think you are being manipulative with this, the problem for me isnt that she focused on you but that she had golden as a civilian read and without building a case she flipped and voted for him

at this point i think as scum team of elo + mp07 is more likely than elo + epi, if elo and epi were scum teams their voting would have been very clumsy. in any case i think everyone should focus on getting 1 scum and work their way back instead of trying to catch the whole scum team at once.

#961

Sloonei wrote:How do people feel about the other two players (MP and Bass) who received multiple votes, in the wake of Golden's lynch?

i still think mp07 is suspicious (he's fucsia on my rainbow list), but elo is my main suspect rn

#962

can someone say which 4 players missed the vote? i still get a bunch of names confused

idk if it happens here but in rym a lot of times the scum skips a vote in order to avoid suspicion

#963

sanmateo wrote:
Sloonei wrote:How do people feel about the other two players (MP and Bass) who received multiple votes, in the wake of Golden's lynch?
i still think mp07 is suspicious (he's fucsia on my rainbow list), but elo is my main suspect rn

what about bass? and why elo?
I suppose it will also be important for players to try and provide some of their own analysis of how the individual votes played out, but that discussion will probably take place whether I bring it ul or not.
But hey, what do people make of all those votes? Anyone stand out in particular on that Golden wagon? It certainly feels at least a little dirty.

#964

I'm impressed over how fast it was. I made my vote one hour before the end of the phase. It was the third vote. There were four after that, and iirc none of them made too much effort to explain it, as Golden mentioned.

Logically, the people who joined it later are more suspicious than the first ones. But everyone who voted Golden can be considered suspicious (including me, i'll admit).

#965

RIP Golden. Sorry to vote you out so soon again as civ.

I don't know what to say. But I am not bad.

#966

Sloonei wrote:
sanmateo wrote:
Sloonei wrote:How do people feel about the other two players (MP and Bass) who received multiple votes, in the wake of Golden's lynch?
i still think mp07 is suspicious (he's fucsia on my rainbow list), but elo is my main suspect rn
what about bass? and why elo?
I suppose it will also be important for players to try and provide some of their own analysis of how the individual votes played out, but that discussion will probably take place whether I bring it ul or not.
But hey, what do people make of all those votes? Anyone stand out in particular on that Golden wagon? It certainly feels at least a little dirty.

idk what to think about bass, their vote says nothing either since it was just a survival thing. people who stand out in the golden wagon are marsh (willfully unexplained vote) and elo.

#967

Elohcin wrote:RIP Golden. Sorry to vote you out so soon again as civ.

I don't know what to say. But I am not bad.

Do you have any thoughts on the votes? Who's in the driver's seat to earn your vote going in to Day 2?

#968

sanmateo wrote:can someone say which 4 players missed the vote? i still get a bunch of names confused

idk if it happens here but in rym a lot of times the scum skips a vote in order to avoid suspicion

I think I must have missed the vote, I have been busy last day or so, and my tablet doesn't show times, can we please get a timer for the next vote? So sorry guys, it wasn't intentional. Also I'm astonished there are already 20+ pages for only day1! How do you keep with it?! I haven't read all, I assume golden has been lynched? If so its a shame! He is not who I was expecting, but does talk a lot so maybe that has something to do with it. I remember in the last game he was repeatedly voted for being talkative.

#969

How much of the game have you been able to read, TinyBubbles?

#970

There were a few terrible Golden votes and i am looking forward to shredding them when i get home.

#971

sanmateo wrote:can someone say which 4 players missed the vote? i still get a bunch of names confused

idk if it happens here but in rym a lot of times the scum skips a vote in order to avoid suspicion

Skipping votes here is frowned upon and you could get punished for missing a vote.

#972

Sloonei wrote:How much of the game have you been able to read, TinyBubbles?

I kept up to around page17 and just now am skimming the rest. RIP golden!
Sloonei do you know when is the next vote?

#973

I know this has been said a couple of times, but I want to reiterate that if I am not included on a PM about a Night action/production/selling it will not go in my spreadsheet and I cannot guarantee that you will benefit from its effects, so to maximize efficiency (like all good economists) make sure my lovely name is in your PM "to" field.

Thank you!

#974

TinyBubbles wrote:
Sloonei wrote:How much of the game have you been able to read, TinyBubbles?
I kept up to around page17 and just now am skimming the rest. RIP golden!
Sloonei do you know when is the next vote?

Nights last 24 hours I think, so the next vote should be open tomorrow around this time and last for two days after that. Who do you think you'll vote for? do you have any ideas yet?

#975

Who doesn't believe in the free market?

Poll ended at Thu May 21, 2015 6:04:04 pm

acrosstheaether
0
No votes

Bass_the_Clever
5
JaggedJimmyJay (6), birdwithteeth11 (7), Sloonei (14), Golden (15), MovingPictures07 (17)
28%

birdwithteeth11
0
No votes

Black Rock
0
No votes

Dom
0
No votes

Dragon D. Luffy
0
No votes

Elohcin
0
No votes

Epignosis
0
No votes

fingersplints
0
No votes

G-Man
0
No votes

Golden
7
Turnip Head (4), Metalmarsh89 (5), Dragon D. Luffy (10), Epignosis (11), Elohcin (12), G-Man (16), Bass_the_Clever (18)
39%

JaggedJimmyJay
0
No votes

MetalMarsh89
0
No votes

MovingPictures07
2
sanmateo (8), fingersplints (9)
11%

Roxy
0
No votes

sanmateo
0
No votes

Sloonei
0
No votes

TinyBubbles
0
No votes

Turnip Head
1
Roxy (13)
6%

Mister Rogers (Hosts/Mod)
3
Russtifinko (1), S~V~S (2), thellama73 (3)
17%

Total votes : 18

#976

G-Man, whether you're screwing around or not, i love the effort in your rebus posts. always a delight.

anyway, i'm home. time to see just how much sense these Golden votes made.

#977

Sloonei wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:
Sloonei wrote:How much of the game have you been able to read, TinyBubbles?
I kept up to around page17 and just now am skimming the rest. RIP golden!
Sloonei do you know when is the next vote?
Nights last 24 hours I think, so the next vote should be open tomorrow around this time and last for two days after that. Who do you think you'll vote for? do you have any ideas yet?

OK good plenty of time

as for who to vote for I am honesty reluctant to call out anyone, because I would have to go through the posts in more detail, but based on the fact that golden was innocent and voted him out, bass_the_clever is on my radar. Which simultaneously makes everyone else who voted him on my good guy vibes list.

#978

TinyBubbles wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:
Sloonei wrote:How much of the game have you been able to read, TinyBubbles?
I kept up to around page17 and just now am skimming the rest. RIP golden!
Sloonei do you know when is the next vote?
Nights last 24 hours I think, so the next vote should be open tomorrow around this time and last for two days after that. Who do you think you'll vote for? do you have any ideas yet?
OK good plenty of time as for who to vote for I am honesty reluctant to call out anyone, because I would have to go through the posts in more detail, but based on the fact that golden was innocent and voted him out, bass_the_clever is on my radar. Which simultaneously makes everyone else who voted him on my good guy vibes list.

But what if Bass is also good?

#979

Sloonei wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:
Sloonei wrote:How much of the game have you been able to read, TinyBubbles?
I kept up to around page17 and just now am skimming the rest. RIP golden!
Sloonei do you know when is the next vote?
Nights last 24 hours I think, so the next vote should be open tomorrow around this time and last for two days after that. Who do you think you'll vote for? do you have any ideas yet?
OK good plenty of time as for who to vote for I am honesty reluctant to call out anyone, because I would have to go through the posts in more detail, but based on the fact that golden was innocent and voted him out, bass_the_clever is on my radar. Which simultaneously makes everyone else who voted him on my good guy vibes list.
But what if Bass is also good?

I know its not much of a theory lol. But in the last game golden eyed the main bad guy practically from the beginning, so I'm inclined to trust his instincts

I noticed you voted bass too, what were your reasons? (If you've already said them somewhere in the thread I'm sorry!)

#980

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Golden: Most of his posts were about forum culture, and the activity on me and the other newbies. Voiced a suspicion on sanmateo, but hasn't really pursued it after that. Feels like someone who is tring to help, but hasn't really contributed that much in scumhunt. I'm pretty neutal on him.

in DDL's first comprehensive reads output, he called neutral on Golden.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Golden, I'm not seeing you doing much interrogation like you say. You are mostly stating general facts about the game, like MP's meta, your theories about yesterday newbie chat, post activity, and telling stories about your previous games. But I'm not seeing much direct interaction between you and other players, be it reads, accusations, or interrogations. It feels like you're not getting yourself involved.

DDL was unimpressed with Golden's self-meta descriptions and expressed why he felt his play was suspicious. his explanation here is consistent with the one i just quoted above. i think there was a point in Day 1 when these suspicions could be validly cast. i don't think Golden was remotely close to fitting this description through the final stretch of Day 1 though -- so it could be said that DDL didn't give him any chance to change his mind.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Epi, imma reply to your latest posts tomorrow. I gotta go sleep too.

MovingPictures07 wrote:DDL, top suspect. Go.
Golden. For reasons already stated. I don't like how is alleged meta is one of little involvement with the game. But I'd like to see other people's confirmations that this is indeed his meta, and that he doesn't normally engage people. I think Turnip would be able to answer that if he showed up. But if people tell me that Golden is usually more pro-active, then we have a problem.

(dis)honorable mention to acrosstheater, whose activity has been limited to say "good point" to someone else's scumread. Seriously, if she doesn't post for the rest of the phase, that will raise a pretty big scum flag for me.

here we can see DDL naming Golden as his top suspect well before his actual vote when prompted by MP. he maintains the same perspective essentially throughout the day before eventually placing the vote:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 58#p143758 big post where DDL thoroughly describes to Golden why he is suspicious and then votes for him.

here he continues to harp on Golden's self-meta'ing and describe why he doesn't like it. here's a snippet from that post:

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Now, after I arrived to that conclusion yesterday, you have become a little more pro-active. You started going against Epi for his war on MP. That's a plus for you in terms of activity. But it isn't a really hard case to make. You are not the only person who thinks Epi's real life time calculations are pointless. I do too, and so do others. So it can be a way for you to get on an easy bandwagon, and avoid the impression that you're not being useful.

DDL acknowledges that Golden's playstyle changed later in Day 1 as Golden began to more aggressively pursue cases against Epignosis. i am not a big fan of the point DDL makes. i see this as a good reason for him to re-think his Golden read, but instead he simply rearranges his mindset to allow for Golden's shift to remain suspicious behavior in his eyes. that is the definition of tunneling. he wanted to see something from Golden, saw it, and then criticized him for it anyway. with this observation in mind, i am forced to decide whether i feel this was more likely to be a mistake by a townie or a deliberate pursuit of a mislynch by a mafia -- and i lean slightly to the former.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i don't feel as good about DDL as i did before this lynch transpired, but i also think his vote at least makes some sense. there is plenty of precedent in his post history for suspicion of Golden so i am not surprised or perturbed that his vote eventually landed on him.

#981

Epignosis and his interaction with Golden prior to placing a vote for him:

for much of Day 1, there was no interaction. the only moments in former half-plus of his post history in which Epignosis acknowledges the existence of Golden are these meaningless little posts:

Epignosis wrote:
Golden wrote:Epignosis is going to hate me starting that paragraph with honestly!
I hate you more for ending it with a run-on sentence.

Epignosis wrote:
Golden wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.
I really am simply having trouble keeping up while being extremely busy doing many things. I have had long days and not many nights at home this week. Boss resigned, more work. Pastor resigned, more preaching. Wife becomes a manager, has to deal with her first employee warning, needs some of my time and attention, plus yesterday I spent more of my time finalising my BSG game to submit in the poll than reading the game. You'll see me get more 'golden-like' (by which I assume he means fierce) when I see something I think looks bad.
I was expecting to read "Wife resigned, more laundry."

Epignosis wrote:
Golden wrote:Also, Epi just triggered my bullshit alarm, literally.
You really should see someone about that.

the last one might not actually be meaningless. it shows Golden's first signal of aggression against Epignosis, and Epi just blew it off with this empty emoticon crap.

Epignosis wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I want to vote either DDL or MP at this juncture.

However, I would like to know

what the other players are thinking about these two.

DDL seems cool to me so far. I've got a slight civ read on him, mainly for his attitude re: dead civvies not being able to win (originally). Seemed like genuine frustration because it went against the civvie team's goals.

MP honestly seems alright to me so far, though I see what you're saying about the timing. I'm giving him the BOTD atm, but I'll be watching him closely. I believe that he tries to do as much multitasking as possible as often as possible. Maybe he played up just how much he was doing in that 20 minutes, but I'm not thinking it's nefarious currently.

What do you think of Golden?
I wanted to see where he was going. I agree that his presence is different than what I've seen elsewhere.

when prompted by Turnip, Epi says an actual Thing about Golden. and it couldn't be more vague. both sentences are useless and directionless. they are supported with nothing.

Epignosis wrote:
Golden wrote:RL stuff should be off limits as far as gameplay goes.

Golden wrote:I really am simply having trouble keeping up while being extremely busy doing many things. I have had long days and not many nights at home this week. Boss resigned, more work. Pastor resigned, more preaching. Wife becomes a manager, has to deal with her first employee warning, needs some of my time and attention, plus yesterday I spent more of my time finalising my BSG game to submit in the poll than reading the game. You'll see me get more 'golden-like' (by which I assume he means fierce) when I see something I think looks bad.
Off-limits, you say?

Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:If MovingPictures07 felt that it should be off-limits, he should have said so.
I'm just frustrated with ridiculata contributing to lynches of people like MP and you for that matter. I think Epi knows better than to push the buttons he pushed right then. As far as "what academic paper are you reading" goes... it's just an unhelpful question and exactly what I'm calling out by the term 'wall of text'.

Perhaps I don't really mean off-limits off-limits. But I think it was calculated to send MP to the brink, and I don't like the vibe of that calculation.

here's another example of Golden casting suspicion upon Epi and receiving a completely apathetic response from him. there's a tone of snark in that "off-limits you say?", but he takes it nowhere at all. i've still not seen any meaningful comment from Epi which suggests he might want to pursue the lynch of Golden.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 93#p143793 - larger post within which Epi votes for Golden and provides barely two sentences of explanation. rather, he demands a more thorough description from Golden about why his game now is similar to "Keeler" (whatever that is) -- and places a vote before such a demand can even be met. he'd only barely begun to imply he had any inkling of suspicion for Golden to this point. he gave him no chance. this entire post history is just filled with what i perceive to be obvious bullshit.

now, let me visit a non-Golden-relevant post which i think spells out the problem i am seeing in this thread re: Epignosis:

Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Correct.

Would you have rather I voted for you? You seem upset.
I am still recovering from being the most upset I've ever been at you in any mafia game, ever, so that could be what you're picking up on. :P That said, I'm not particularly upset at the moment, no.

I'm honestly just surprised you didn't vote for me and I'm not sure what to make of it.
A bunch of new people in this who know nothing about me, and you think I'm going to pass up an opportunity to play with some heads?

every time someone has stated suspicion of him, someone else has come to his rescue with some sort of meta-based defense mechanism that i suspect he enjoys in every game.

"Oh, that's just Epi being Epi lol"

that is absolutely not good enough. and in this post above, he is boisterous about enjoying this benefit. after spending an incredible amount of time and energy tearing MP to pieces over nothing of importance whatsoever, he placed his vote on someone else. someone else he had only barely acknowledged prior. and how does he want that behavior to be received? this crap right here.

"you think i'm going to pass up an opportunity to play with some heads?"

OH YOU, EPI. OH YOU.

#982

Elohcin and her interactions with Golden prior to her vote for him:

Elohcin wrote:
Golden wrote:
In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

I agree with this.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:We've seen a little more from other players now. What do you folks think of Elo, Epi, Golden, G-Man, etc...?

I'll answer myself shortly.
I don't know about you, but I think Elo is civ civ civ hehe

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

bad start, Elohcin. her first direct statement about Golden was to say she were leaning civilian on him. minds are allowed to change, but it must take some serious convincing over the course of a single day phase. at first, he was one of her 5 civilian reads. 5 out of 18. he must have looked pretty solid to her.

Elohcin wrote:
Golden wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:this might be called a slight backtrack. he doesn't understand TH's methods but grants some degree of validity to the assertion that he is off-meta in this game. i wouldn't know either way about his meta. this is a very minor ping if a ping at all though.
Off-perception of my meta. I don't think the idea that I'm off-meta is accurate, but I can at least understand that people find the games when I'm loudest most memorable, and I don't think genuinely perceiving me that way is unusual.

I'm glad to see TH is here. I want him to respond to some of the points I've made.
I know I have only played one game with you, but I think you are acting more reserved this game for sure. And, I do like TH's case on you so far.

the next time Elo acknowledges Golden is in this post, which is very different. can you please explain what changed between the previous post and this one which caused Golden to plummet all the way down your reads from a Top 5 civilian to this observation? Golden's play was consistent throughout the phase until the end when he went after Epignosis. so if his play didn't change, why did your perspective change so much?

within the same post:

Elohcin wrote:And then that last quote there. I think I would be okay voting Golden or MP today.

this is a startling fall from grace. he was a Top 5 Civilian, and then he became a Top 2 Baddie.

Elohcin, that kind of change of heart demands a thorough explanation. what did you see in Golden at first that you liked? and why did that change? why did you like TH's case against Golden?

i think you look pretty bad here.

#983

G-Man also voted for Golden. it's impossible to analyze his content, which is the most important benefit he'd enjoy if he's faking it. but for now i am not inclined to feel that way. i agree with sanmateo that it looks more likely to be town than not.

through pictures he said he was deliberating between MP, Epi and Golden. and he went Golden. wrong choice, but 6 other people made the same choice.

#984

Bass_the_Clever's vote for Golden:

"no don't kill me, kill that guy"

obligatory maneuver and probably meaningless regarding his alignment. i feel no better and no worse.

#985

given that i leaned town on Golden (and that read would have been expressed more strongly if i'd been here to talk about his behavior as the day was ending), i view all of the votes for him to be bad votes. it's not just that he flipped town, it's that i find that flip wholly unsurprising. ranking the votes by how suspicious i find them (most to least):

1. Elohcin
2. Epignosis
3. Metalmarsh89
4. Turnip Head
5. Dragon D. Luffy
6. G-Man
7. Bass_the_Clever

that's just ranking the votes by suspicion though. an overall ranking of suspicion by player would see Bass back near the top alongside Epignosis and Elohcin.

#986

While Bass's vote was mostly self-preservation and it's tough to make too much of that, I felt like his complete silence around the deadline was fairly suspicious (perhaps this is just a resilt of tunnel vision, though). He said nothing, that I can remember, but showed up in the heat of it all, cast his vote, and left. A few words would have been better than "i don't wanna die."

I'm on board with Elohcin's vote looking particularly bad in that bunch.

How long would a curse like the one supposedly placed on G-man typically last? Should we be able to look forward to his participation tomorrow?

#987

i got the time zone blues. i miss so much of the fun. nobody is going to remember my posts when the sun rises.

#988

what's your analysis of mm's vote, jay?

#989

sanmateo wrote:what's your analysis of mm's vote, jay?

i had the mind to skip TH and MM because their votes weren't a part of the late-Day avalanche. but that's probably ill-advised, so i'll check it out and report back on both dudes.

#990

Golden wrote:Epi tomorrow. Good luck civs.

Excuse me sir, could you lower your voice?

Golden wrote:Lynch Epi tomorrow.

I thought I'd made that clear.

100%, that is who you need to lynch tomorrow.

Sir, I'm going to need to ask you to calm down.

Golden wrote:I'm telling you guys, LYNCH EPI TOMORROW

You will not regret this, I assure you.

Sir, I really need you to calm down.

Golden wrote:Seriously, though, I forgive you all if you lynch Epi tomorrow.

Please take a deep breath and count to-

Golden wrote:Forget an iso.

Don't let an opportunity for analysis and response get in there.

Don't allow epi the opportunity to sway you against his lynch.

JUST LYNCH HIM!

Security!

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Correct.

Would you have rather I voted for you? You seem upset.
I am still recovering from being the most upset I've ever been at you in any mafia game, ever, so that could be what you're picking up on. :P That said, I'm not particularly upset at the moment, no.

I'm honestly just surprised you didn't vote for me and I'm not sure what to make of it.
A bunch of new people in this who know nothing about me, and you think I'm going to pass up an opportunity to play with some heads?

You SOB, I was seriously pissed off.

Why did you have to do that?

I'm way too gullible.

I tried on more than one occasion to clue you in to what I was doing. With each attempt you got more agitated. When I posted the AYBS? link, I thought "Surely MP will get it and have a laugh." Instead you lost your shit and called me a pussy.

MovingPictures07 wrote:I'll ISO him later before I develop my Rainbow List, I promise, especially if you die and flip civilian.

Knock yourself out, chief. You've earned the right.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:Seriously, though, I forgive you all if you lynch Epi tomorrow.

And I think the Epi/Eloh thing stinks. Both could be bad, tbqh. I haven't liked Eloh in this game since her first post where she felt the need to have an opinion on everyone, while going after MP for 'sucking up'. Felt like she was trying to fit in and paint a target.

And marmot - it's all your fault!

And TH - I'm on-meta.
If you're bad, then posts like these are genius, because this reads totally genuine civilian Golden to me from a vibes-based standpoint. I just can't stand it.

I'll probably vote Bass, but I am so unsure.
You are an emotional player, and his desperation posts are an emotional appeal.

I feel similarly when I read them.
You know, you're right. I have an internal struggle in that I like to believe I'm an incredibly logical person and that it translates over into my mafia game, but I can't ignore the fact that I operate the game under a heavily emotionally-influenced basis, both in the way that I play and in the way I perceive others' play.

I just feel like the proper approach to the game is a more logically-based one, and I feel that way about life in general, sometimes failing to recognize that obviously emotions are an extension of logic, so I always feel ashamed when I emotionally implode.

Every single time I've attempted to do things rationally, using numbers and logic and operating under as few assumptions as possible, I get shit on for it. The only exception, the only time it ever worked out for me was in Clue (my only civilian win ever in almost three years of playing), and THAT only worked after the Mafia tried three times to kill me. And you bastards almost lynched me because I had false information from the host that was ruining my spreadsheet. I think I physically threatened people with violence if they lynched me so close to endgame.

And three key times I was screwed out of a win because I let someone get away with false indignation. I thought they were mad at me so I stopped pursuing them. I was right all three times about their alignments but did nothing about it because I was manipulated. Since those three instances, I have decided that people can build a bridge and get over it when I have no shits to give that their favorite pet bearded lizard died and they think I'm picking on them. Zero. Shits. Anymore.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Let it be known that civilian Golden has INSANE instincts at catching mafia, so I'm inclined to heavily consider his suspicion of Epi and re-evaluate my thoughts on him when conducting an ISO. I may not change my mind, but I do think this should be noted.

Then I hope, should I be lynched, that Golden's instincts be downgraded from "INSANE" to "Pretty good most of the time."

MovingPictures07 wrote:Epignosis -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- DROP! In theory, I could still see an out on him being civilian, but only when considering meta in that he plays a very mafia-like game regardless of alignment. That said, when actually analyzing his behavior, it appears incredibly deceptive and intentionally manipulative, designed to deceive. Golden, the only confirmed civilian, who also has an amazing mafia hunting ability, also said with 100% confidence that Epi is bad. Read remains strong even though I'm not 100% convinced (instead, just strongly convinced), so being honest with myself he is just very slightly above Elo, hence the distinction.

It shouldn't appear incredibly deceptive and intentionally manipulative. It was incredibly deception and intentionally manipulative.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Epi knows that he would eventually get me to react emotionally if he pushed me hard enough with the weakest possible logic. He knows it's my weak point.

That wasn't my intention.

But now I know that when you get even a little upset, you have the sense of humor of a dead duck.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:One fact that may be useful: Epi's vote on Golden was cast less than 10 seconds after mine. There were two votes there when I clicked the button, and there were four when the page loaded. So he did not bandwagon on my vote, though it's still perfectly possible that he anticipated my vote, or that he bandwagoned on the previous two votes.

Just some thoughts.

I have an explanation for this. I was at work running around hanging signs. During this time, I was thinking about my vote. Golden kept coming to mind because I had never seen him elaborate on his suspicion of me. He kept alluding to Keeler, but wouldn't elaborate. This stood in contrast to what little I've seen him play (in which he was good or independent). When I cast my vote, I saw that you had voted right before me. But then I had to finish my task, which is why my vote post was delayed.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I don't think Epignosis has made a single good point in this game and his Golden vote is nonsense. So I'm definitely on board with making him dead.

Awww...did somebuddy buy da wong fabwic softener for Mr. Snuggums?

#991

does indy/independent mean self-aligned?

#992

I just realized I'll probably be far less active during the upcoming day phase, as i'll be working most of the day both tomorrow and Saturday. my contributions will probably be limited to mostly short phone posts.

#993

Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you? And do you have any suspects yet?

#994

as requested by sanmateo. Metalmarsh89 and his vote for Golden

prior to placing the vote, there is not a single moment anywhere in which MM expresses suspicion of Golden (unless he did so without actually addressing him by name). the first thing i see which could be interpreted as remotely accusatory is this:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I can't decide if I find Tiny Bubbles' lurking to be scummy or not. They've admitted to being nervous about saying anything at all, which would ordinarily would look very scummy but I am not familiar with them as a player or the Mafia Culture they come from. That said, regardless of anything that level of intense lurking is the easiest way for scum to hide without drawing any attention to themselves.
I played in TinyBubbles first game. It was very quiet all up, had 12 players, and TinyBubbles was one of the quietest of all. It was also on a froum completely new to mafia where nearly half the players hadn't played before. She was civilian. One game is hardly a representative sample, but I'm definitely not seeing her lurking as a reason to think she is bad.
Stop saying the same things that I am saying.

and i'm not sure it was even meant to be accusatory. was it, MM? were you suggesting he was parroting you?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:DDL - I have a reputation for being one of the best baddie hunters around. You haven't seen me play yet, so I don't know why you would judge my meta based on a description of it.

No, I didn't find a lot to be suspicious of in the walls of text. Honestly I find this game exhausting for how little content there is in the walls of text, and anything I might have found had already been talked out ad nauseum. Each to their own methods - I'm not finding others suspicious just because of their play style. If you don't like the way I play, too bad. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

Let me make one thing very clear - I'm not going to play a different way because you find me suspicious. I play my way.

Also, Epi just triggered my bullshit alarm, literally.
You want something to happen okay.

Votes Golden

in a recent post MM asserted that his explanation for his vote was packaged with the vote. so here were are at that post, and it'd seem he means the first sentence there is the "explanation". this means he is proposing his vote was wholly intended to be reaction-prodding, which would strike me as a strange thing. if MM was so concerned with Golden's behavior (specifically relative to the case presented by TH which seemed to inspire this if i interpret context correctly), then i'd have expected to see more about that earlier in his post history before just dumping a vote. and it was the second vote on the only person with any votes at all when it happened, so it could be suggested it was important in encouraging the eventual avalanche at EOD.

i don't think MM's vote looks great. he's probably more suspicious to me now than he was when i last rainbowed.

#995

Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you? And do you have any suspects yet?

as if he gives a damn

#996

Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you?

No.

Sloonei wrote:And do you have any suspects yet?

Yes.

#997

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you?
No.

Sloonei wrote:And do you have any suspects yet?
Yes.

do you have any intention of sharing their name(s)?

#998

Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you?
No.

Sloonei wrote:And do you have any suspects yet?
Yes.
do you have any intention of sharing their name(s)?

Later.

#999

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Epignosis, do you have anything for real to say to Golden's and others' suspicion of you?
No.

Sloonei wrote:And do you have any suspects yet?
Yes.
do you have any intention of sharing their name(s)?
Later.

i'll hold you to this

#1000

might as well look at Turnip Head's vote for Golden too and ensuing explanations.

so let's see what TH had to say about Golden before the vote. er--

Turnip Head wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.
I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

wait. it already happened. there it is right there. there's nothing before it except a Day 0 thing. alright. everyone already knows this is how it happened though. it's important then to look at TH's following explanations and decide whether the case he constructed was fair.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 08#p143508 - there's the case

i think some the points he made are rather exaggerated. for example, what he called a "mighty big contradiction" i'd have maybe called a "curious approach".

here's a bit that i find a little troubling:

Turnip Head wrote:Here, Golden admits that RL is affecting his play, while simultaneously NOT admitting that his play here is "off-meta". I find that contradiction to be impossible unless there's a lie in here somewhere. And in any case, he was apologizing for something I hadn't really accused him of yet. I didn't accuse him of anything where providing a RL schedule would be a valid excuse. In fact, I didn't accuse him anything really, did I? But he still felt the need to explain himself in this way.

it can be called manipulative to assert that a player MUST be lying somewhere in an explanation when that player has now flipped town. it's a significant accusation, because lying is inherently a lot more mafia-inclined behavior than town-inclined -- so it'd surely be a big component of TH's negative read. and it does look like a significant leap that he said there must be a lie there. it's a strong statement that demands a strong logical foundation, and i'd question whether that's present.

Turnip Head wrote:I actually like most of your responses, Golden. Yes, I do agree that a newbie could likely get lynched on Day 1 in this game, not because of any precedent for lynching new players, but a precedent for lynching talkative ones. I'm reading more into it than what you're saying though because of the second part of your post, where you ask for everyone's opinions on those 4 specifically. I realized your next set of suspicions/reads in your next several posts only contained the new players, and it felt like you were trying to keep the focus on them even as you defended them. It felt a little manipulative and possibly calculated.

i want to give TH credit for not tunneling. he made his case, Golden responded, and he was positive in his reception of that response. but this does mean terribly much because TH's vote was still there. the vote happened before Golden was ever given the opportunity to make him feel better. and considering the fact that TH's case against Golden seemed to be a strong influence upon the eventual lynch at least for some people, that's especially crummy.

Turnip Head wrote:
Golden wrote:So, why does that make me bad enough to vote for?
Weird way to phrase the question but anyways...

It doesn't make you bad enough to vote for. It just makes you enough to vote for on Day 1 to get some reactions. I think we've gotten a few, haven't we?

If you had to vote right now for the person you most think is bad, who would you vote for?

i love reaction-votes as much as anyone, but when it's your only vote of the Day phase then it would seem less prudent. there might be some precedent for this on The Syndicate, i don't know. and i don't just mean TH, i mean anyone. on RYM we've only had 2 games ever that i recall in which there were no vote changes, so this is all very foreign to me.

overall i think there are valid reasons to be suspicious of TH for his vote and general Golden-relevant conduct. at the same time though i don't find myself struggling that much to envision his game developing and executing within/from the mind of a townie.

Who killed our talkative teddy??