Battlestar Galactica Mafia - GAME OVER

[insertnamehere]

I know this is about six days too late, but Battlestar Galactica is something near and dear to my heart, and I'd love to be a substitute if any are needed at any point.

[Dex]

I'd like other opinions on DrumBeats. I don't like his methodology or his conclusions.

Can't be a surprise coming from me, but neither do I.

[Epignosis]

I'm going to stand by my opinion.

I am voting DrumBeats.

[rabbit8]

Why? I'm sure you said but I'm being lazy and would really appreciate and explanation from anyone who thinks declaring is civvie minded?

Cylons benefit by not declaring as it gives them a one-time get-out-of-lynch-free pass. Nothing happens to humans who declare. Cylons are therefore more motivated to not declare. It's just another piece of evidence to weigh - personally I find it a very useful one - when determining who's who. Or who' what, I guess.

Okay. I'm a Cylon.

[G-Man]

Actually, Drum, Epi hosted a game (Biblical Mafia) last year with I think 30 players in it and only 4 or 5 started as baddies. There was a side faction of indy-type roles but all the civs had to was lynch those four or five players. It took the cives darn near forever to clinch the win. Remembering the layout of that game better tonight has opened new perspectives for me on this game. I don't know a thing about the tv show BSG but there are familiar elements when I look at it from 10,000 feet. Secret roles, secret wincons- it's like a cousin format to Biblical if true.

I'm glad we have an extra day to this phase. As much as I want to vote for Glorfindel, I'd like to step back and look at a few more people as well. JJJ had a big write-up on sig that I want to digest a second time and Epi's gradual chipping away at Drum has me curious. Today (realtime day) was on the quiet side and this whole phase seems to have been less productive than others. I share some blame for that what with joining in on jostling with zebra before her abrupt exit.

[Dex]

Okay. I'm a Cylon.

Then there were Glorfindel, Vomps, Obscure, and Rico.

[ObscureAllure]

Okay. I'm a Cylon.

Then there were Glorfindel, Vomps, Obscure, and Rico.

I'll Tribunal of Judgment be number 1

[DrumBeats]

Sorry that it's hard to follow in real time, I had a lot of catching up to do and a lot of things to address in real time as well

Also this is the list I am basing my claim/not claim off of, If I have missed a more recent one let me know:

@ linki Dex, thank you for clarifying who was left, I missed some!

Glorfindel
OA
Sokoth
Vompatti

Basically I am all caught up right now so here is my rainbow list, since I haven't done one in a while:


Epignosis - Closest thing we have to a clear right now imo. Lore makes his character flip seem very promising, as it seems that Cavil's faction, not all cylons, are the scumteam.
Marmot - I trust the Marmot protection law + behavior has been good imo.

JaggedJimmyJay - Has done a ton to push discussion and his reads feel genuine.
Silverwolf - Though I haven't agreed with Wolf on everything, especially during the lynch all cylons period, all of Wolf's posts seem genuine.
G-Man - A lot of contribution/vote analysis/reads. I haven't been pinged by anything with him, and he's been pretty active.
Matt - Has done a lot of lore-theory that I feel guided our course early game. Hasn't pinged me as suspicious yet and is pretty active, though that has slowed down a bit in the past few days.
Ricochet - Behavior-wise, he has been incredibly protown imo. The lack of a claim made me skeptical, but I realized I just missed it.


Black Rock - Relatively inactive lately, but I have been too. Posts seem genuine and nothing has really pinged me.
S~V~S - Her posts have seemed genuine and helpful. Nothing has screamed town to me, but I am more inclined to believe SVS as town than scum.
Rabbit8 - I honestly did not know how to read Zebra well, so this one will develop more as Rabbit is taking over. Rabbit hasn't pinged me yet and the posts seem geniune. The new claim in linki makes me feel a bit better too.


Polo - Town-read him earlier in the game but I do not like the overconfidence that Wilgy is town. Should Wilgy flip town, I believe Polo to likely be scum, should Wilgy flip mafia, I am comfortable keeping Polo here.
Dex - Same as Polo. I think both of the two though are not scum together though because I feel like scum would do a better job distancing.
Bea - I hated the Bea-Nutella interactions a lot, along with her initial hesitance to claim. Recent behavior is better imo, but I'm still not willing to call her town.

ObscureAllure - I'm on the fence about OA. I scumread her initially, but some more recent posts feel geniune to me and I follow the logic. I still hate the fact that she has yet to claim, especially being an avid "lynch all cylons". The claim thing just really throws me off here.
Vompatti - Literally contributes nothing + hasn't claimed. I have no clue how to read a Vompatti, but this doesn't seem town imo.
SokothQultuq - A lot of null reads + hasn't claimed. Really seems to be trying to portray being helpful without doing so in his most recent read list.

sig - Opportunistic cylon claim. Pushed on a cleared townie. JJJ's iso points to even more scummy material from him with the linking Daisy and Nutella. Overall terrible look imo
Glorfindel - A lot of posts with no real information. Refuses to claim cylon.
DrWilgy - I've went over this a lot, but based on what we know he has about a 60% chance now to flip scum, assuming Leoben and Cap Six are town cylons.




@ Epig linki - The early vote is unfortunate. I don't like how you cut off interaction with me and just voted, but oh well.

@ G-Man linki - Interesting. I guess I will stop game balance speculating and leave that to you guys who know host/site meta better than I do. I still don't see the reasons for clearing Wilgy like people have done, but I can see the other point of view more now that there are more than one option of good cylon left.

Final thoughts: I fully support a lynch on any of the red three, I would personally still prefer Wilgy, but I would be open to placing Glorf at the most votes and then making Wilgy or Sig have the second most. I would be alright with a lynch on the oranges, though I will not place my vote to back them.

[DrumBeats]

I'll stay on for another 30ish minutes in case anybody wants to talk or has questions, but after that I'm off for the night.

[Dex]

Glorfindel
OA
Sokoth Rico
Vompatti

[DrumBeats]

Glorfindel
OA
Sokoth Rico
Vompatti

Oops misread that then. Let me modify the list again, thanks for catching that

[DrumBeats]

Sorry that it's hard to follow in real time, I had a lot of catching up to do and a lot of things to address in real time as well

Also this is the list I am basing my claim/not claim off of, If I have missed a more recent one let me know:

@ linki Dex, thank you for clarifying who was left, I missed some!

Glorfindel
OA
Rico
Vompatti

Basically I am all caught up right now so here is my rainbow list, since I haven't done one in a while:


Epignosis - Closest thing we have to a clear right now imo. Lore makes his character flip seem very promising, as it seems that Cavil's faction, not all cylons, are the scumteam.
Marmot - I trust the Marmot protection law + behavior has been good imo.

JaggedJimmyJay - Has done a ton to push discussion and his reads feel genuine.
Silverwolf - Though I haven't agreed with Wolf on everything, especially during the lynch all cylons period, all of Wolf's posts seem genuine.
G-Man - A lot of contribution/vote analysis/reads. I haven't been pinged by anything with him, and he's been pretty active.
Matt - Has done a lot of lore-theory that I feel guided our course early game. Hasn't pinged me as suspicious yet and is pretty active, though that has slowed down a bit in the past few days.



Black Rock - Relatively inactive lately, but I have been too. Posts seem genuine and nothing has really pinged me.
S~V~S - Her posts have seemed genuine and helpful. Nothing has screamed town to me, but I am more inclined to believe SVS as town than scum.
Rabbit8 - I honestly did not know how to read Zebra well, so this one will develop more as Rabbit is taking over. Rabbit hasn't pinged me yet and the posts seem geniune. The new claim in linki makes me feel a bit better too.
Ricochet - Behavior-wise, he has been incredibly protown imo. The lack of a claim makes me not willing to place him any higher than town lean.


Polo - Town-read him earlier in the game but I do not like the overconfidence that Wilgy is town. Should Wilgy flip town, I believe Polo to likely be scum, should Wilgy flip mafia, I am comfortable keeping Polo here.
Dex - Same as Polo. I think both of the two though are not scum together though because I feel like scum would do a better job distancing.
Bea - I hated the Bea-Nutella interactions a lot, along with her initial hesitance to claim. Recent behavior is better imo, but I'm still not willing to call her town.

ObscureAllure - I'm on the fence about OA. I scumread her initially, but some more recent posts feel geniune to me and I follow the logic. I still hate the fact that she has yet to claim, especially being an avid "lynch all cylons". The claim thing just really throws me off here.
Vompatti - Literally contributes nothing + hasn't claimed. I have no clue how to read a Vompatti, but this doesn't seem town imo.
SokothQultuq - A lot of null reads. Really seems to be trying to portray being helpful without doing so in his most recent read list. Honestly I'm still scumleaning him even though he has claimed, that read list was incredibly barren imo.

sig - Opportunistic cylon claim. Pushed on a cleared townie. JJJ's iso points to even more scummy material from him with the linking Daisy and Nutella. Overall terrible look imo
Glorfindel - A lot of posts with no real information. Refuses to claim cylon.
DrWilgy - I've went over this a lot, but based on what we know he has about a 60% chance now to flip scum, assuming Leoben and Cap Six are town cylons.




@ Epig linki - The early vote is unfortunate. I don't like how you cut off interaction with me and just voted, but oh well.

@ G-Man linki - Interesting. I guess I will stop game balance speculating and leave that to you guys who know host/site meta better than I do. I still don't see the reasons for clearing Wilgy like people have done, but I can see the other point of view more now that there are more than one option of good cylon left.

Final thoughts: I fully support a lynch on any of the red three, I would personally still prefer Wilgy, but I would be open to placing Glorf at the most votes and then making Wilgy or Sig have the second most. I would be alright with a lynch on the oranges, though I will not place my vote to back them.

Fixed after my Rico/Sokoth mix-up. Really the only thing that changed is that Rico moved from Town read to null/town read.

(When I reference rainbow lists I refer to them as
Strong Town
Town
Null Town
Null Scum
Scum
Strong Scum

Just in case there is any confusion later)

[Glorfindel]

We don't know who is Cavil-aligned, but we know that for this to be a balanced mafia game there needs to be more Cavil-aligned than not. We know we have already found two of the non-Cavil-aligned cylons. Cap Six is the presumed last one, but that is only one out of the remaining cylons.

I beg your pardon, my friend? WE do not KNOW this at all. This is speculation and in my view, a convenient lie. That is also NOT a criticism of you but of the comment you made - just for the record...

This is coming from a very likely Cavil aligned cylon. Nice how he still hasn't claimed and won't say why. That he shot down the fact that nutella was an evil cylon or that any cylons were evil and is now shouting down the fact that there may be more Cavil aligned cylons out there than not. He's practically waving a banner saying he's an evil cylon most of this day phase and no one will even run him up to a claim which is really quite sad.

You're exceedingly single-minded my friend and in some circumstances, that is a very admirable quality but not here, not now. I'm not "shooting down" anything. All I'm asking of you is to open your mind to the possibility that what you believe (based on a perceived certainty) may be wrong and to think about the consequences if you're wrong (as I can assure you, you are). I don't think that is too much to ask, is it?

[Silverwolf]

Glorfindel needs to have the most votes and be forced to claim. Make sure the second place person is someone you want lynched today. He has refused to claim or address my questions when I ask why. Do not give him another day. He's scummy on top of refusing to claim. Put him in first. Get him to claim. Do it today.

[Silverwolf]

Glorfindel-all you are doing is saying I'm wrong. Guess what? I don't believe I am. I believe you are a unclaimed cylon and very likely one of the bad ones. I will keep pushing this in hopes someone will listen to me.

[G-Man]

Glorfindel needs to have the most votes and be forced to claim. Make sure the second place person is someone you want lynched today. He has refused to claim or address my questions when I ask why. Do not give him another day. He's scummy on top of refusing to claim. Put him in first. Get him to claim. Do it today.

Allow me some time to do some more thorough research on a few other players. There's a strong chance that I will join you in voting for Glorfindel. I fear that my focus on him has left my cases on the rest of my suspicion list a hair too lean should he get lynched today. A few things said today have my top suspects in motion and I'd like to try to pin the order down.

[Polo]

@Drumbeats so, if my guess was right, then I'm mafia to you? That is utterly ridiculous and I'd expect a solid accusation from anyone who doubts my civness.

[Glorfindel]

Glorfindel-all you are doing is saying I'm wrong. Guess what? I don't believe I am. I believe you are a unclaimed cylon and very likely one of the bad ones. I will keep pushing this in hopes someone will listen to me.

I'm listening to you SilverWolf and I know full well that you believe that you're right and I totally respect that. Again for the umpteenth time, you are working from a frame of reference that is WRONG!... And what is worse, you are unprepared to even consider the possibility that you are.

I can assure you that what you've been led to believe about the way this game and how it works is WRONG. You are making assumptions based on what others have said and accepted them as fact. I promise you that they are not.

[Matt]

So wow, I've been super busy and still haven't read anything except LC's flip. Going to try and catch up tonight, starting now.

President Roslin (or whoever at this point), I had an idea for a law! Don't know if Goldama would allow it but something like...

The True Identity Act

All players who have been lynched or will be lynched shall have their faction revealed in the form of civilian, mafia, or independent.

Or heck, you're the President so why not go for the NK'd too?

I dunno if you can make a law for dead people but hey thought I'd share! Off to catch up now...

[Glorfindel]

So wow, I've been super busy and still haven't read anything except LC's flip. Going to try and catch up tonight, starting now.

President Roslin (or whoever at this point), I had an idea for a law! Don't know if Goldama would allow it but something like...

The True Identity Act

All players who have been lynched or will be lynched shall have their faction revealed in the form of civilian, mafia, or independent.

Or heck, you're the President so why not go for the NK'd too?

I dunno if you can make a law for dead people but hey thought I'd share! Off to catch up now...

I'd support that Matt 110% because it would achieve two critical elements:

1. It would show our misguided and misled colleagues just what a dire situation it is that I believe we now find ourselves

And

2. Begin to expose the lie (once and for all) perpetrated by our Mafia opponents and swallowed hook like and sinker by our gullible colleagues.

So Say We All!!!

[DrWilgy]

Both players that voted for me didn't bother to engage me or review my recent opinions and questions...

[ObscureAllure]

so we are headed to Memphis in a few hours and it appears the insanities doesn't load on the iPhone so I probably won't be posting much this weekend. I'll try to steal laptops as they become available.

Wigly, Sig, Glor... One Martha Jones must Typhoony today! Bea

[ObscureAllure]

EBWOP: Insanifier

[Marmot]

Hence, me asking you a question about a post you made last night.

Are you riled? I feel that people are getting a little riled when they use the word "literally".

I have a bad habit of abusing that word. I'm not riled. I'm not fussed.

What do you think the implications would be if I was "lining up" a sig lynch today?

I wondered if you had gotten lazy for a moment and reinforced the idea of lynching a player that several other players also wanted to lynch.



Can somebody scumread me? I'm having trouble motivating myself.

[Dex]

@Drumbeats so, if my guess was right, then I'm mafia to you? That is utterly ridiculous and I'd expect a solid accusation from anyone who doubts my civness.

Yeah, I love this.

Basically:
Wilgy flips town ---> Scum read on Polo/Dex - Willing to push it
Wilgy flips scum ---> Null read with a slight scum lean on Polo/Dex - Only willing to push if I find something else

If we're right (about trying so stop a bad lynch), we're scum. If we're wrong, we're slightly less scum.

[Marmot]

[Ricochet]

Can somebody scumread me? I'm having trouble motivating myself.

I think you are scum
Now shake it till you break it
Do not pass Go

[Ricochet]

Okay. I'm a Cylon.

Then there were Glorfindel, Vomps, Obscure, and Rico.

And Epignosis
For what it is worth I'd ask
Remaining claimers

To recap their reasons
Not to claim and... I forgot
The fraking lyrics

[Polo]

I don't really think MM is mafia.

I'm inclined to believe President Laura Roslin has, according to her role power, received a prophecy that revealed that MM is civ and edited a law in order to prevent the mafia from NK'ing him.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Little optimism
seems present in Jim Jay's
take on sig's posts.

For what it's worth
his Daisy complaints pinged me
about Daisy herself.

Did you spend any time or energy defending nutella prior to experiencing that Daisy ping?

[Ricochet]

No, you mentioned Wigly. Wigly did that.

This sentence right here

He's a cylon so if he claims our number two (should be Wigly) dies and if he doesn't claim then Glor dies. Either way we have a mafia.

Oh restlessness Sorry, I was referring Sorsha Glor there. I Long Con pretty certain Glor is a cylon based on Golden Genie reaction to silvers LaezyDaezy. miscompute Willow Rosenberg behavoir, just as Wigly has done. quaquaversum I honestly levite Shinny really paying attention if I'm honest because I lost a lot of jhilmil when we religieuse two possibly three lief in compressibility of us, some verified through amnesty event, and people are voting abatement of them. Just kind of feels like why hunt Red Knight Juliets if no unavoidable else is interested in doing it. unexaggerated been skim reading the last few page as best.

I'll probably ask
to clarify once more
after jhilmil no more.

Little optimism
seems present in Jim Jay's
take on sig's posts.

For what it's worth
his Daisy complaints pinged me
about Daisy herself.

Did you spend any time or energy defending nutella prior to experiencing that Daisy ping?

Reviewed case on her
probably was before Daisy;
did not defend nut.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Reviewed case on her
probably was before Daisy;
did not defend nut.

sig did. That's why I cared. He wasn't the only person to throw shade at Daisy for her waffle on nutella, but he was only person to do so after having defended her and resisted her lynch. I don't understand why someone with a mindset featuring town-nutella would suddenly care about someone else waffling on that read. What sig said makes sense coming from someone who suspected nutella, not someone who protected her.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No, that is a legitimate comparison. I agree, a number of people haven't made an effort at 'baddie hunting' beyond just me and where is the 'March of the witch hunters' on them? Something you might like to consider right there. I mentioned Vompatti before and my suspicion was summarily dismissed because 'he always plays that way'. Besides, he clearly has an exceptionally quick wit and this game would likely be a crashing bore without him. I may have misunderstood but I was taken to understand that LC and Black Rock were married. Did I get that wrong? I figured under the circumstances, that would legitimately explain the the constant references to him in her posts. My point was that if you remove those references which I don't think were substantial (in terms of content) what remained appear quite thin.

Yes, BR and LC are married, and yes they tend to have a little more to say about one another than other players. The reason I believe you're being targeted by so many people right now instead of the likes of Black Rock or Vompatti is that a cursory glance at your post history would make it look like you have baddie hunted early and often. You have a decent number of posts, and the word count per-post is likely well above the mean among the players in this game. The posts also often feature multiple quotes chopped into a sequence, which lengthens them and allows them to bear the appearance of analytic effort. Despite this appearance, there is less baddie hunting evident in your actual words than might typically be expected of someone whose ISO looks like your ISO.

Because so many people suspect you, it's nigh impossible that all of them are impurely driven, or even most of them. There are likely numerous honest townies who want your head right now, and that's a big reason why.

My take? I can understand why people feel that way about your post history, though it's not something that has concerned me as much as it has seemed to concern them. Some people are just verbose and I think you look the sort. The lack of baddie hunting is a reality though, and it's why I've been prodding you to focus solely on that. Every time you respond to someone else's accusations at this point, you've wasted a moment that you could have spent doing something more productive. That's not ideal, and it makes me less comfortable to stand in your defense.

Note for other people: If Glorfindel is bad, I don't think Black Rock is bad with him.
A dangerous, unfounded assumption and one not worthy of someone of your intellect 3J.

I don't understand this comment at all. Why is it dangerous or unfounded for me to suggest that if you're bad, Black Rock is not bad alongside you? If you're not bad, then this assertion should be quite meaningless to you -- it'd be reliant upon a condition that doesn't exist. That you've responded in this manner, and particularly that you've backwardly massaged my "intellect" in doing so, suggests to me that you have some amount of emotional investment in what I said.

I don't see why you would if you're good.

Now it's my turn to ask you some questions 3J. Don't worry, they're not hard, they just require a considered response...

1. How convinced are you that Epi is on our side and actually working in the interests of the Town (a percentage would even be nice )?
And
2. Assuming you give him a reasonably high percentage for question 1, in percentage terms, how much do you trust his judgement in these games?

Thanks

1. Any "percentage" I give you will inherently be somewhat arbitrary. I guess 65-70%.

2. If he's good, I trust his judgment quite a bit. He's a strong intuitive player and he translates his reads into legible cases -- many people only do one or the other. I guess 95%.

Return question:

1. Why is that of interest to you?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Glorfindel, I would like gun to head reads on every living player. I'll supply you with the list, all you need to do is copy/paste it and give me "good" or "bad" for everyone. No nulls allowed.

a2thezebra/rabbit8
bea
Black Rock
Dex
DrumBeats
DrWilgy
Epignosis
G-Man
JaggedJimmyJay
Metalmarsh89
Matt
ObscureAllure
Polo
Ricochet
S~V~S
sig
Silverwolf
SokothQultug
Vompatti

[Glorfindel]

No, that is a legitimate comparison. I agree, a number of people haven't made an effort at 'baddie hunting' beyond just me and where is the 'March of the witch hunters' on them? Something you might like to consider right there. I mentioned Vompatti before and my suspicion was summarily dismissed because 'he always plays that way'. Besides, he clearly has an exceptionally quick wit and this game would likely be a crashing bore without him. I may have misunderstood but I was taken to understand that LC and Black Rock were married. Did I get that wrong? I figured under the circumstances, that would legitimately explain the the constant references to him in her posts. My point was that if you remove those references which I don't think were substantial (in terms of content) what remained appear quite thin.

Yes, BR and LC are married, and yes they tend to have a little more to say about one another than other players. The reason I believe you're being targeted by so many people right now instead of the likes of Black Rock or Vompatti is that a cursory glance at your post history would make it look like you have baddie hunted early and often. You have a decent number of posts, and the word count per-post is likely well above the mean among the players in this game. The posts also often feature multiple quotes chopped into a sequence, which lengthens them and allows them to bear the appearance of analytic effort. Despite this appearance, there is less baddie hunting evident in your actual words than might typically be expected of someone whose ISO looks like your ISO.

Because so many people suspect you, it's nigh impossible that all of them are impurely driven, or even most of them. There are likely numerous honest townies who want your head right now, and that's a big reason why.

My take? I can understand why people feel that way about your post history, though it's not something that has concerned me as much as it has seemed to concern them. Some people are just verbose and I think you look the sort. The lack of baddie hunting is a reality though, and it's why I've been prodding you to focus solely on that. Every time you respond to someone else's accusations at this point, you've wasted a moment that you could have spent doing something more productive. That's not ideal, and it makes me less comfortable to stand in your defense.

Note for other people: If Glorfindel is bad, I don't think Black Rock is bad with him.
A dangerous, unfounded assumption and one not worthy of someone of your intellect 3J.

I don't understand this comment at all. Why is it dangerous or unfounded for me to suggest that if you're bad, Black Rock is not bad alongside you? If you're not bad, then this assertion should be quite meaningless to you -- it'd be reliant upon a condition that doesn't exist. That you've responded in this manner, and particularly that you've backwardly massaged my "intellect" in doing so, suggests to me that you have some amount of emotional investment in what I said.

I don't see why you would if you're good.

Now it's my turn to ask you some questions 3J. Don't worry, they're not hard, they just require a considered response...

1. How convinced are you that Epi is on our side and actually working in the interests of the Town (a percentage would even be nice )?
And
2. Assuming you give him a reasonably high percentage for question 1, in percentage terms, how much do you trust his judgement in these games?

Thanks

1. Any "percentage" I give you will inherently be somewhat arbitrary. I guess 65-70%.

2. If he's good, I trust his judgment quite a bit. He's a strong intuitive player and he translates his reads into legible cases -- many people only do one or the other. I guess 95%.

Return question:

1. Why is that of interest to you?

You are correct my friend, there are reasons other than being 'impurely driven' that have led for the groundswell of players to contemplate my lynching. I find your analysis of my posts curious in that I am more cautious perhaps in expressing my thoughts on other player's actions. I am not so arrogant as to believe I possess any special skill in understanding their motives nor so abrasive as to treat my fellow players with the disrespect that I've witnessed on occasion here so you'll forgive me if I frame my opinions more thoughtfully than what you'd expect from other players on this site.

As for the Black Rock observation that you made, from my personal experience, assuming the alignment of a player from that of another (whatever their respective colour) is a very dangerous thing to do as on the vast majority of occasions what may look like a link is simply a mirage - it was a general observation that I made.

You're suspicious of me and I respect that. You're wrong, but I respect that. In my assessment, your performance this game has showed that you are adept at reading people and are capable of building sound cases from a fairly objective standpoint. That is something that I respect. Your opinion on the matter I raised is therefore highly regarded. Thank you.

[Glorfindel]

Glorfindel, I would like gun to head reads on every living player. I'll supply you with the list, all you need to do is copy/paste it and give me "good" or "bad" for everyone. No nulls allowed.

a2thezebra/rabbit8
bea
Black Rock
Dex
DrumBeats
DrWilgy
Epignosis
G-Man
JaggedJimmyJay
Metalmarsh89
Matt
ObscureAllure
Polo
Ricochet
S~V~S
sig
Silverwolf
SokothQultug
Vompatti

Honest Injun?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Again, that's all fair, but from what I understand, your suspicion on me is based upon me manipulating a town!Wilgy flip.

Your understanding is wrong. My suspicion of you is setting up a scenario in which Polo looks bad either way. Walk me through a scenario where Polo looks good to you.

Right now, I do not like the certainty that Wilgy is town from both Polo and Dex, and regardless of the situation, that strikes me as a scum mindset. Scumteam knows more information than we do, and from what I can see on the role list, the cop only knows cylon or not, so the only way to suddenly be that sure in my opinion is to be scum. I doubt both are scum though, because both seem to be good enough players not to associate themselves so closely. Should Wilgy flip mafia, this certainty becomes much less suspicious imo, but it still has potential scum motives of a risky move to protect him.

Basically:
Wilgy flips town ---> Scum read on Polo/Dex - Willing to push it
Wilgy flips scum ---> Null read with a slight scum lean on Polo/Dex - Only willing to push if I find something else

Dex has thoroughly explained why he doesn't believe DrWilgy to be an evil cylon rather than simply stating it as a certainty out of the blue. If you're to call his confidence in that assertion suspicious, you should look to his explanation and state precisely why you don't believe his rationale can come from a town mindset.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

As for the Black Rock observation that you made, from my personal experience, assuming the alignment of a player from that of another (whatever their respective colour) is a very dangerous thing to do as on the vast majority of occasions what may look like a link is simply a mirage - it was a general observation that I made.

Sorry I still don't understand. It's possible my assertion was incorrect, but from your perspective there can only be one possible incorrect interpretation. If I say that Glorfindel as a baddie and Black rock don't fit together, and I'm wrong about that, then it'd mean that bad Glorfindel and bad Black Rock do fit together -- which still leaves us with "bad Glorfindel".

That's the only association I drew. I didn't say anything about what Black Rock might be in the event that you're good. From your perspective, how can there be any danger in me drawing a conclusion which is reliant upon you being bad to function? If you're not bad then the conclusion doesn't exist.

You're suspicious of me and I respect that. You're wrong, but I respect that. In my assessment, your performance this game has showed that you are adept at reading people and are capable of building sound cases from a fairly objective standpoint. That is something that I respect. Your opinion on the matter I raised is therefore highly regarded. Thank you.

I'm not sure if I suspect you. I'm trying my best to sort you out. I've arguably spent more time defending you than anyone else in the game has save maybe for S~V~S, and I am challenging myself on that good read during this day phase. I have always felt the cases assembled against you are merited, but you just don't look bad to me at all. That is still true, frankly. Sometimes people who don't look bad are bad anyway.

Honest Injun?

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're unfamiliar with gun to head reads, all I mean is for you to state a clear "good" or "bad" read on all of the players I listed, using nothing but one of those two words (no "neutral" or "null" or "???" or "I don't know", etc).

[Glorfindel]

Glorfindel, I would like gun to head reads on every living player. I'll supply you with the list, all you need to do is copy/paste it and give me "good" or "bad" for everyone. No nulls allowed.

a2thezebra/rabbit8: Good
bea: Good
Black Rock: Bad
Dex: Good
DrumBeats: Bad
DrWilgy: Good
Epignosis: Good
G-Man: Good
JaggedJimmyJay: Good
Metalmarsh89: Good
Matt: Good
ObscureAllure: Bad (but on this one especially, I reserve the right to change my mind based on an ISO of her posts)
Polo: Bad
Ricochet: Good
S~V~S: Good
sig: Good
Silverwolf: Good
SokothQultug: Good
Vompatti: God knows?

The way I see it, I'm one or two 'Bads' short. I've given you an off the cuff opinion and I make no secret of the fact that I'm not a great judge of people's malicious intentions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Vompatti is immune to gun to head reads. They bounce off of him like a super ball off pavement.

[Glorfindel]

As for the Black Rock observation that you made, from my personal experience, assuming the alignment of a player from that of another (whatever their respective colour) is a very dangerous thing to do as on the vast majority of occasions what may look like a link is simply a mirage - it was a general observation that I made.

Sorry I still don't understand. It's possible my assertion was incorrect, but from your perspective there can only be one possible incorrect interpretation. If I say that Glorfindel as a baddie and Black rock don't fit together, and I'm wrong about that, then it'd mean that bad Glorfindel and bad Black Rock do fit together -- which still leaves us with "bad Glorfindel".

That's the only association I drew. I didn't say anything about what Black Rock might be in the event that you're good. From your perspective, how can there be any danger in me drawing a conclusion which is reliant upon you being bad to function? If you're not bad then the conclusion doesn't exist.

You're suspicious of me and I respect that. You're wrong, but I respect that. In my assessment, your performance this game has showed that you are adept at reading people and are capable of building sound cases from a fairly objective standpoint. That is something that I respect. Your opinion on the matter I raised is therefore highly regarded. Thank you.

I'm not sure if I suspect you. I'm trying my best to sort you out. I've arguably spent more time defending you than anyone else in the game has save maybe for S~V~S, and I am challenging myself on that good read during this day phase. I have always felt the cases assembled against you are merited, but you just don't look bad to me at all. That is still true, frankly. Sometimes people who don't look bad are bad anyway.

Honest Injun?

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're unfamiliar with gun to head reads, all I mean is for you to state a clear "good" or "bad" read on all of the players I listed, using nothing but one of those two words (no "neutral" or "null" or "???" or "I don't know", etc).

Like I said in regard to the Black Rock matter, my experience is that judging a players alignment on that of another is always bad. It was simply a general observation.

Again, I agree that you've given me a fair shake and you've been unbiased in your consideration of me. That's a lot more than I've received from other players here and irrespective of your judgement at the end of the day, I thank you for your objectivity.

And lastly, I was joshing with you Sorry if you didn't get that

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Glorfindel, thank you for humoring me on my questions. I have another:

If you had total control over who is lynched this day phase, who would die?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There's been an uptick in anti-Black Rock sentiments lately. I'll check out the ISO. Because I am the god Iso, come to Earth from my pantheon in the clouds to render judgment and avoid going to sleep.

Spoiler: show

Black Rock never lurks or fails to be present when she's town. Mafia is the box.

Not true, I do believe I got my nick on my PScore when I was Town. You can't really say never because it really depends on the game, and the time of year.

Black Rock never lurks or fails to be present when she's town. Mafia is the box.

I suppose I could say that she was less present in both Economics and Talking Heads, when she was an evil-doing evil-doer. I'll let her answer before saying anything more on the matter.

Except that is the complete meta of BR. If Zebra thinks my meta really is I talk more as civ and not as baddie then I call bull shit. Especially day one. I can off handly say Zebras meta is to call me bad when's shes bad, it's happened at least two or three games.

Very early in the game Zebra called BR a baddie read because she associated BR's quietness with BR's baddie meta. BR called bullshit on that, which I would actually question. I provided two examples of a relatively quiet BR being a baddie in this exchange, both recent enough to be relevant. I also think many baddies just can't stand it when townies accuse them based on meta, especially if they think it can validly be contested.

Spoiler: show

I would absolutely loathe mislynching Epignosis on Day 1. I have always said that in all circumstances the most suspicious player should be lynched regardless of who or when. So with this stated:

Epignosis, if you're town then I don't think it's terribly likely you're going to change the mind of either Silverwolf or ika. To continue discussing it with them would be fruitless and perhaps even make it worse. So it'd probably be better both for your faction and for yourself if you'd drop that discussion and focus solely on your own suspicions and other reads. You've proven repeatedly to have good instincts and to be a valuable component of any civilian team, and I don't want to see that wasted.

That's funny that you had to tell Epig to do that. That's one of his first rules iirc. Change the discussion and accuse, don't get caught defending.

This post catches my eye because it's a bit of a removal from her treatment of Epignosis elsewhere on Day 1. When Epi was being heavily suspected by Sikawolf, BR was the one to step in and suggest that his behavior might not be out of the ordinary for him. So that she made this response to my recommendation to Epignosis, a response that seems to imply suspicion should exist but doesn't actually say it, is a little surprising. To suggest that Epignosis was violating one of his own "first rules" would be to call him suspicious in pretty much every universe I can conceive.

BR seems to suggest afterword though that it might not have been a statement of suspicion:

Spoiler: show

I would absolutely loathe mislynching Epignosis on Day 1. I have always said that in all circumstances the most suspicious player should be lynched regardless of who or when. So with this stated:

Epignosis, if you're town then I don't think it's terribly likely you're going to change the mind of either Silverwolf or ika. To continue discussing it with them would be fruitless and perhaps even make it worse. So it'd probably be better both for your faction and for yourself if you'd drop that discussion and focus solely on your own suspicions and other reads. You've proven repeatedly to have good instincts and to be a valuable component of any civilian team, and I don't want to see that wasted.

That's funny that you had to tell Epig to do that. That's one of his first rules iirc. Change the discussion and accuse, don't get caught defending.

and what is he doign right now?

Well, I'm not sure where you're getting at. It was just a piece of Epig trivia.

"just a piece of Epig trivia" -- as opposed to "a reason to be suspicious of Epignosis". I don't like this progression very much.

Spoiler: show

I voted for Marmot because I don't like his game. I would have voted Epig out of Mercy but he will have enough. I hope he's bad. I just don't see it.

I don't know what Marmot was doing differently on Day 1 to his typical behavior, so BR's Day 1 vote doesn't inspire me. She also reaffirms a confident read that Epignosis is good, meaning the previously mentioned "piece of Epig trivia" must have meant very little to her. But she said it anyway.

Spoiler: show

LA's latest posts are not feeling so good to me. She is starting to feel cornered baddie.

Interesting LoRab. I see you jumped a vote on LC and have stuck around to throw out this opinion. Is this to cover your ass if LA flips something bad or murdering like? (I'm sorry, I'm not getting the whole concept yet)

Just something to watch. Just know I am.

Black Rock was one of the most vocal supporters of the idea that LoRab and nutella were linked (LA = nutella). The reason I bring this post back is that it's actually the very first time BR acknowledged the existence of nutella in this game. nutella was being discussed as a suspect for much of the phase in the wake of my big case, and BR didn't involve herself in that discussion until this moment. At this point there's a good argument to be made that LoRab was a good-aligned cylon and not associated with nutella, and I think in hindsight this post looks more like a smear than a genuine read.

I think that's an important thing, because the best thing going for BR in my mind before this point was her part in lynching nutella. But now I have a reason to question that. She did contribute a vote to that lynch, but prior to this accusation of LoRab she didn't contribute any words to that lynch. I think that looks like BR biding her time while the going gets tougher for nutella until it's clearer she is on the chopping block and a scapegoat link is needed.

Spoiler: show

Epi and Black Rock, follow Marmot!

No,vote Nutella

Well for my LoRab suspicion to work it would mean Nutella was her partner in murdering.

BR's suspicion of LoRab on Day 2 entirely hinged on her relationship with nutella, and yet BR only seemed interested in voting for nutella after being prodded so -- when nutella would have to be bad anyway for BR's beef with LoRab to even make sense. I don't think it's a great look.

Spoiler: show

BR - I don't think epi is bad eiher -where is your vote leaning?

Likely Nutella at this point but I really would like to vote for LoRab.

BR's vote for nutella was a begrudging one. She wanted to lynch LoRab. LoRab being a baddie was contingent upon nutella being a baddie in the case BR presented though. This does not make sense to me.

When LoRab actually was lynched, BR paid her no attention except to place a vote for her. LoRab made numerous efforts to explain and defend herself, and BR did not address any of that. This looks like opportunism.

Spoiler: show

And I was not putting words into anyones mouth, I am trying to understand what she means.

BR has not said anything to me or about me the whole game, so I am hard pressed to understand why she suddenly thinks I am bad if it is not related to my main topic of discussion for some time now, how I think that you are bad, LC.

Thanks for dropping the time back Golden. I a still staying up too late lol.

I used to think you had the humans best interests at heart. I no longer think you do. I just focused on LoRab first and had a hiccup with the game. Now that is over and I have shaken my head, I realize you aren't my friend this game.

BR's move against S~V~S is rather bizarre. She had a period in which she wasn't around very much, then when she re-emerged onto the scene she brought brand new and very abrupt suspicion upon S~V~S. The reasons why really aren't clear either. BR asserted S~V~S wasn't working for "human interests", but I don't see a case put forth, even a brief one, to describe what S~V~S has done to promote an anti-human agenda. If it's just that S~V~S was anti-Cain, then that strikes me as a weak reason.

Spoiler: show

BlackRock, do you think Admiral Cain is a good role?

I believe Cain is a pro human role and a anti Cylon role, which meshes fine. Unless I see Cain doing some random killing, I am not afraid of that role. I also think you are silly to think LC is that role, just because he has stated his distaste of Cylons and then Cain did. Do you really think our host is so black and white? Also LC? Really? I don't understand your play this game SVS. I figure you're Cylon trying to distract the thread... or new. You aren't new.

The problems Cain posed for the goodly people of this game should be self-evident. It was also very easy to understand why S~V~S suspected LC of being Cain. I don't understand BR's mindset at all.

Spoiler: show

Black Rock! I want an update on S~V~S and your accusation of her. What say you?

Sorry, I just spent the last 10 mins screaming at the top of my lungs at my selfish 17 year old. I think LC thinks I went insane.

I do need to get back on that track and expand on SVS. Really a lot of my thoughts are when she first came into the game she seemed to be Anti-Cylon. Like she thought it was the "in" thing. Then when a consensus came in that you were not evil she seemed to jump on the Cylon train. It just seems way to convenient and opportunistic. Which is words I would use to describe Mafia. I also do not trust any other listed Cylons. If the final five are like the final five of the show then I'm not too worried. I really don't know half the shit that's going on. I am with the humans (with the exception of your role), I do not trust Cylons.

I feel like I just did a tangent. My brain is filled with rage. Anyways SVS = opportunistic = no trust.

Although Black Rock =\= trusting Cylons is likely I will vote Dr Wilgy first. I do need to finish my catch up though.

"Kill 'em because they're a cylon" is BR's motto, but she hasn't pursued Epignosis. Doc is an easier lynch. No likey.

~~~

BR is a suspect.

[Glorfindel]

Glorfindel, thank you for humoring me on my questions. I have another:

If you had total control over who is lynched this day phase, who would die?

Are you REALLY sure you want an answer to that question 3J? I can say that you almost certainly won't like the answer

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Glorfindel, thank you for humoring me on my questions. I have another:

If you had total control over who is lynched this day phase, who would die?

Are you REALLY sure you want an answer to that question 3J? I can say that you almost certainly won't like the answer

Don't you worry about whether I'll like the answer. That's not important. I want that answer.

[Ricochet]

Reviewed case on her
probably was before Daisy;
did not defend nut.

sig did. That's why I cared. He wasn't the only person to throw shade at Daisy for her waffle on nutella, but he was only person to do so after having defended her and resisted her lynch. I don't understand why someone with a mindset featuring town-nutella would suddenly care about someone else waffling on that read. What sig said makes sense coming from someone who suspected nutella, not someone who protected her.

Oh I get it now
Yeah that could be something, true
Goin' back to sig bad

[Glorfindel]

Glorfindel, thank you for humoring me on my questions. I have another:

If you had total control over who is lynched this day phase, who would die?

Are you REALLY sure you want an answer to that question 3J? I can say that you almost certainly won't like the answer

Don't you worry about whether I'll like the answer. That's not important. I want that answer.

OK, don't say I didn't warn you...

This is an established community and this is my fourth (three and a half?) game here. I've played a fair number of games on a variety of other sites and I don't know that I've witnessed what I have here in this game before. It seems to me that you all have played with and against each other for (in most cases) quite some time in most cases. As someone relatively new here, I've been pretty surprised (and not in a good way) by some of the interactions I've seen here this game. Zebs is one of you that I've come to respect a great deal here and for her to feel that she needed to leave this game is something that should be cause enough to have a serious look at things here.

I've made no secret of the fact that I've not been satisfied with the way certain people have dealt with me. As I've said, I've played a lot of games and I know how these games work. I understand that it's commonplace for us to pressure each other and often that results in some fairly robust discussions and it's necessary to do so for the sake of the game. Yeah, I kinda suck at these games but that aside, I personally believe that there are some things more important than winning a Mafia game. I find these games often very frustrating (and am there right now) but I always try to maintain a level of respect in my dealings with each of you. I think you're a good example of what I'm talking about 3J - you can ask incisive questions in a respectful way that frankly invite sincere responses. Not everyone here is like that. I know I'm on my own here in saying this but anyone that isn't willing to do the same or thinks it's smart to be obnoxious to others really doesn't help anyone to enjoy this game. For that reason, I sadly think that I'd remove G-Man. I know it's not what you wanted to hear but like I said, to me, some things ARE more important than winning. I mightn't be popular for saying what I have, but new members are the life blood of sites like these and as one you'll potentially lose, I figured you should know.

[Vompatti]

I personally believe that there are some things more important than winning a Mafia game.

You don't seem very motivated.

I'm Keanu Reeves.

[Dex]

And Epignosis

Yeah, I don't count Epi. We all know he is cylon in the first place, and in the second, I'm fine if Athena keeps her one-time get-out-of-lynch free card.

For what it is worth I'd ask
Remaining claimers

To recap their reasons
Not to claim and... I forgot
The fraking lyrics

You first.

[Ricochet]

I did reason it
You called it utter bullsuit
Still counts however

So you are fine with
A Cylon keeping his claim?
Huh... and four more words.