Battlestar Galactica Mafia - GAME OVER

[bea]

Tomorrow would be perfect for me golden. Idk about those who travel though.

@gman I get what you are saying. I was having a hard time cross referencing. I'm sure the error was in the user. (Ie me) I appricate your explaination.

[S~V~S]

I spent the day as part of a volunteer clean up crew at our local National Cemetary, Pinelawn, removing litter, planting flags and tidying up for tomorrows ceremonies. I come from a strong military family, and try to do it every year, but I think all Americans should do it at least once in their lives. It is easy to lose connection to those who sacrificed their lives so I could live mine, and this is a way to restore that connection. Memorial Day is more than BBQs and beach parties (although doing/did that this weekend too )

I expected to come back to a big catch up, but I see that is not the case. Tomorrow is fine, Golden.

[insertnamehere]

All Along the Watchtower.

there must be some way out of here....

NOPE NOPE NOPE

[G-Man]

Adjusting the lynch poll to end tomorrow is fine by me.

@bea- no problem. It's easy for me to tackle it since I came up with the system. I can be a little overzealous with my data crunching.

[Golden]

Due to the popular demand of the few people who are here, I pushed the day phase for another 24 hours.

[insertnamehere]

Who has thoughts on INH? Anyone has a read or gut on him and his Day Six action? I for one am excited to be playing a game with such a mythical player. He hasn't posted much, in his time catching up, but I am sure he has the potential to contribute significantly.

Gee wilikers, I'm mythical now? When did that happen? To be honest, I'm probably notable for two things: Crazy Complicated Avant-Garde (no, not literally, that'd be MP) Games of Mafia, and Crazy Ballsy Gambits in Mafia Games, such as the "everybody wins" strategy in Oblique Strategies, and the "I have a magical program that tells me who's bad" stratagem from the first Game of Champions.

Not really known for my extensive case building, or mid mafia gameplay.

This middle bit of a mafia game that we currently seem to be in now is usually my least favorite part. It seems everything is based on deeply held grudges who often turn out to be civ on civ, and intense dissection of posts from a month ago. Everybody seems to be set in their ways as to who is bad, and they aren't really open to grand discussion, only confirmation of their own ideas and NO U'ing anybody who disagrees.

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

[Epignosis]

And now that I post my question to Epi I see he's no longer signed in.

Little kid's birthday party. I didn't mind two dozen screaming children. The hostess makes a mean Margarita.

A question for Epi, since I see him online. What are your thoughts on Rabbit right now? You suggested he was part of a save on Glorfindel at the end of Day 6. Have your thoughts changed at all? I'm running him through my technicolor analysis right now along with Glorfindel and Ricochet (since he was at odds with rabbit).

rabbit8 has been away for a while, but I have a good memory when it comes to mafia, and he strikes me as no different than himself, which, in this scenario, is important, because zebra was doing the zebra, by which I mean doing whatever zebra does with two extended middle fingers. That neither one has struck me as artificial in any capacity sits well with me. I realize that isn't particularly helpful, but I wasn't paying much attention to either.

My thinking that rabbit tried to save Glorfindel was stupid because I wasn't thinking in terms of rabbit being zebra. And Glorfindel didn't need saving anyway.

[Epignosis]

Spoiler: show

You're not fighting though, nor have you been. You're saying "Everybody needs to look at things critically or we will lose, but don't ask me how that's done, because I have no idea." You're not, as far as I can tell, taking your own advice when you write these lengthy and deliberately "honest" essays of yours. The post above, for example, is nothing more than an evaluation of mechanics with more doom and gloom rhetoric.

You also have a habit of phrasing opinions as facts. Fact 4 is decidedly NOT a fact: "What you believe about the composition of the Mafia team in terms of what characters they are is COMPLETELY WRONG." That isn't a fact, and you literally use the word "opinion" in your next sentence.

As for total honesty, I just combed through your posts in Star Wars, in which you were bad, to detect any lies. I found no outright whoppers (you even jokingly validated suspicion a drunken teammate "articulated" against you), although there was this, in which you called people's suspicions of you "misguided," which would not be true since you were in fact bad. Whether you've unintentionally lied or not in Mafia isn't as important as your insistence that you try to maintain complete honesty in all circumstances. As disadvantageous as that personal goal may be for when you are indeed bad, the important aspect is that you have unequivocally declared your alignment...

FACT 2. Yes, I am a Cylon.

FACT 3. Yes, I am Town.

...and that is a point that will need to be considered.

++++

I want to ask you about this:

B) I am choosing to answer your question now and in this way because with only approximately 15 hours left, I believe this game is at a tipping point. If I am to be eliminated from this game at the end of this Day phase, I am convinced that it will put our cause (that of a Town victory) at a significant disadvantage.

Walk me through the events from Day 1 onward.

What has transpired that has you believing the civilians are at a tipping point? Please go through each Day and describe whether or not the lynch result was a good one or a bad one. I'll provide the list, and you provide the commentary:

Day 1- Epignosis (Athena)

Day 2- nutella (Simon O'Neill)

Day 3- Nerolunar (Saul Tigh)

Day 4- Lorab (D'Anna Biers)

Day 5- Long Con (Helena Cain)

Day 6- No one was lynched.

Thanks for replying to my post Epi. There are a couple of things I'd like to address from the comments that you made:

1) What I'd written is a conclusion that has come to me over the period of the last seven days. I think even I (to an extent) had fallen into the very trap that I'd accused our fellow Townies of having fallen into, in terms of assumptions about what characters may reasonably be expected to be Mafia or Town. If one accepts the possibility that the Mafia team roles have been assigned on a random basis, it changes the dynamic here immensely and based on that assumption I would want to revisit every stated assumption that I've made so far (e.g. GTH reads, etc.). And no, I don't know who the Mafia are - I expect only the Mafia know that... No, I can't tell you precisely what is required to examine the evidence before us critically but I can tell you what isn't - blindly accepting the views of people that step forward with "Based on the TV Series... <insert assumption dressed up as certainty>".

2) No, I'm sorry, FACT 4 is indeed a FACT. I have been forbidden to comment on this further under threat of Modkill but I think in time, you'll see it yourself.

3) You (players in this game generally) admonish me for my long posts (that are apparently devoid of content) but I choose the words I use very carefully. If you read what I said in my original post, I said "I have never directly told an untruth" in a Mafia game here. That is, saying that I am either Town or non-Mafia when it wasn't true. Nor have I done that in any game I have ever played. The quote you used above is NOT the same thing - and let's not pretend that it is.

As for your last question, I'm not even sure how to approach that. Firstly, we have six hours left before EoD7 and I start work shortly, Lunch probably won't be until after EoD so my time to provide you with an in-depth analysis is extremely limited. Further, I think we need to keep in mind that the list of those four has been supplemented by the six NKs that were certain Town. Briefly though, LC clearly my not have been Mafia but his agenda was clearly and obviously anti-Town (please refer all of my previous remarks about Mafia team composition). I believe LoRab's comments to have been genuine and that there is a high likelihood that she was indeed one of us. Magnus (Nerolunar) I think everyone generally accepts as having been Town although that's not necessarily conclusive. As I recall there was a conflict there between him and IAWY/DrWigly. If one accepts that DrWigly is one of us, perhaps things arn't so clear about Magnus' alignment after all. And, Nutella... This for me is a 'gut read'. It seems like it was weeks ago... From my recollection, one of the key elements in the case against Nutella was an alleged BTSC connection with LoRab. If one accepts the likelihood (or even the possibility) that LoRab was indeed Town, then it makes sense to me that it calls into question the case against Nutella and I would hope, the player/s that launched that ship in the first place.

I'd like to go back and review (particularly the Nutella case) in more depth but I honestly don't believe that I will have the time between now and EoD. I'm sorry.

I don't know what to do with you. You're Cylon, but I am not one of those who wants to go out lynching every Cylon in sight. That much should be obvious.

I wasn't asking you for an in-depth analysis. I just wanted general commentary. Which lynches were good, and which were bad, and why are the civilians at a tipping point? All you did was say that some of the lynches could be good or bad, only taking any semblance of a stance on LC and Lorab.

If you can't tell which lynches were good for civilians, and you can't tell which roles need to be lynched, I don't see how you can claim that the civilian chance to win is walking a tightrope.

[Glorfindel]

This may sound curious, but what do you do when you happen to draw a mafia role? How does "never being untruthful" work, in that situation? Would you just truthfully declare yourself to be bad?

Really not sure how this "I never lied to anyone" angle is relevant to our interpretation of your game here, unless you've always drawn town in the years you've played and hence never had to be untruthful about being good - yet you have drawn mafia before, so...

Hey, Ricochet I'll admit that over the time I've been playing these games, I can count on one hand the number of times that I've drawn a Mafia role. I can't explain how that happened but that's the truth of it. I know of only a couple of people who've actively used that against me and none of them are playing this game but it does surprise me that it hasn't been a larger factor in my playing these games. I understand that makes me an enormous liability to any Mafia team of which I'm ever a part and I understand that what I'm saying is probably not in the spirit of the game as you see it but it's just the way it is and probably a big factor in why I expect to be playing a lot FEWER of these games in the future.

[Epignosis]

As for your last question, I'm not even sure how to approach that. Firstly, we have six hours left before EoD7 and I start work shortly, Lunch probably won't be until after EoD so my time to provide you with an in-depth analysis is extremely limited.

If you weren't going to be back until the after the end of Day 7, why did you vote?

[Epignosis]

As for your last question, I'm not even sure how to approach that. Firstly, we have six hours left before EoD7 and I start work shortly, Lunch probably won't be until after EoD so my time to provide you with an in-depth analysis is extremely limited.

If you weren't going to be back until the after the end of Day 7, why did you vote?

That should say, "Why didn't you vote?"

[Epignosis]

I'm too pumped winning almost a hundred bucks on NASCAR tonight, which my coworker actually attended in Charlotte.

[Epignosis]

My position is unique.

I can advocate lynches elsewhere without people legitimately thinking I'm trying to save someone.

However, for me to do that, I need to be absolutely satisfied that I am not being duped. I need straightforward answers, not demagoguery or fear-mongering.

I am not afraid to lynch the nicest, quietest, friendliest, puppy-hugger here.

But I need inventive to do so.

[Glorfindel]

So Say We All!

I'm always happy to help answer your concerns my friend. I appreciate your apparently open mind and objective approach to this game.

As for your last question, I'm not even sure how to approach that. Firstly, we have six hours left before EoD7 and I start work shortly, Lunch probably won't be until after EoD so my time to provide you with an in-depth analysis is extremely limited. Further, I think we need to keep in mind that the list of those four has been supplemented by the six NKs that were certain Town. Briefly though, LC clearly my not have been Mafia but his agenda was clearly and obviously anti-Town (please refer all of my previous remarks about Mafia team composition). I believe LoRab's comments to have been genuine and that there is a high likelihood that she was indeed one of us. Magnus (Nerolunar) I think everyone generally accepts as having been Town although that's not necessarily conclusive. As I recall there was a conflict there between him and IAWY/DrWigly. If one accepts that DrWigly is one of us, perhaps things arn't so clear about Magnus' alignment after all. And, Nutella... This for me is a 'gut read'. It seems like it was weeks ago... From my recollection, one of the key elements in the case against Nutella was an alleged BTSC connection with LoRab. If one accepts the likelihood (or even the possibility) that LoRab was indeed Town, then it makes sense to me that it calls into question the case against Nutella and I would hope, the player/s that launched that ship in the first place.

I'm not Epig, but this got me interested in offering a reply. From top to bottom on your ideas:

-- town players getting killed is almost matter of self-evidence, there's no reason to count that towards a despondent view of the game situation. On the contrary, if we did well enough to not add ourselves to the town toll via mislynch, we are actively counter-balancing the mafia kills
I take your point here but looking at our position from a global view, we're down a lot of players right now and if what I'm assuming is correct, we're clearly in a rather poor position. But again, things may not be as bad as they feel to me that they are. What I'm trying to say here is that whether you can see it or not, not much in this game is as it appears. I'd prefer to take a more conservative approach in the circumstances than adopting an attitude that everything is fine when there is no evidence that is the case.
-- I don't see any reason to doubt Saul Tigh's flip as anti-town; even if, at that point, the Final Five may have been awoken and this role remained one of the F5's, it's
Again, call me paranoid but I'm saying that we shouldn't be taking what we think we see for granted. I accept it's a long bow but the more I see of this game, the more I want to question even our more basic assumptions.You may not be able to see the reason for me taking this approach and I'm forbidden from explaining why, but there is a solid basis for me thinking this.
-- you seem pretty easygoing on making bad/good, black/white connections: if we treat Wilgy as good, it must mean Nerolunar was shady? Uh, how about town vs town square-offs?
No, not at all. I was tinfoiling (if I understand the term correctly). I'm trying to think outside the square because I believe I have good reason to question the assumptions that have been made by others so far this game.
-- same connection issue with Nutella/LoRab; if anything, I find it backwards: LoRab was suspected for having BTSC with a nutella whose role revealed inspired the consideration of her being bad. LoRab likely being good does not erase nutella's role reveal and the perception of that.
Point taken, I may have gotten that wrong - a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. But at the end of the day my point stands, you are falling into the very trap that I am asking you to consider more carefully - we can't assume that Nutella was Mafia based on her role alone. I don't know how many times I have to say this. Making those assumptions is not doing us any favours.
Anyway, as far as your answer here goes, I'd say the reason you are prone to "gloom and doom" is because you doubt too much even the lynch results that are closest to be interpreted in a positive light for town (such as nutella's). I really find it strange that you would question Nerolunar's mislynch, but suggest nutella might have been one as well.

Ricochet, if you had even the slightest clue at the level of frustration I'm feeling right now. I think I've done everything but draw you guys a picture, but you're not getting it. You're a really smart guy and we have 24 hours (another opportunity...) I'm still confident that you can solve this

[Glorfindel]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

[Epignosis]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

Somebody wants to lynch you and therefore civilians can't win?

How is INH the closest thing to a confirmed civilian?

If you are good, can you not find a way to prove your point without breaking the rules?

My suggestion would be to stop with the five page essays. I guarantee you most people aren't reading them.

[Glorfindel]

As for your last question, I'm not even sure how to approach that. Firstly, we have six hours left before EoD7 and I start work shortly, Lunch probably won't be until after EoD so my time to provide you with an in-depth analysis is extremely limited.

If you weren't going to be back until the after the end of Day 7, why did you vote?

That should say, "Why didn't you vote?"

I still had morning tea to vote. I checked and Golden had postponed EoD7. 10 minutes was never going to be sufficient time for me to vote AND answer your question in the depth to the extent that I thought you'd wanted.

Oh, and congrats on your NASCAR win

[bea]

Glor. I'm reading what you say. And I'm trying to get what you are saying. My only question is a simple one. If not you then who do we lynch and why?

Those who advocate lynching you have been very vocal about why they want to do so. What do you offer in return that is most likely to net us a bad guy rather than your lynch?

[Glorfindel]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

Somebody wants to lynch you and therefore civilians can't win?

How is INH the closest thing to a confirmed civilian?

If you are good, can you not find a way to prove your point without breaking the rules?

My suggestion would be to stop with the five page essays. I guarantee you most people aren't reading them.

Lunch is over Epi so I will have to answer your questions later (on the way home or tonight). And by that, I mean answer them to the best of my ability. I am so constrained here by what I feel I can't say, it's ridiculous. I have a question for you though - how does me being good help me get around the rules? I'd love to know, it might help me lots, thanks!

[G-Man]

And now that I post my question to Epi I see he's no longer signed in.

Little kid's birthday party. I didn't mind two dozen screaming children. The hostess makes a mean Margarita.

A question for Epi, since I see him online. What are your thoughts on Rabbit right now? You suggested he was part of a save on Glorfindel at the end of Day 6. Have your thoughts changed at all? I'm running him through my technicolor analysis right now along with Glorfindel and Ricochet (since he was at odds with rabbit).

rabbit8 has been away for a while, but I have a good memory when it comes to mafia, and he strikes me as no different than himself, which, in this scenario, is important, because zebra was doing the zebra, by which I mean doing whatever zebra does with two extended middle fingers. That neither one has struck me as artificial in any capacity sits well with me. I realize that isn't particularly helpful, but I wasn't paying much attention to either.

My thinking that rabbit tried to save Glorfindel was stupid because I wasn't thinking in terms of rabbit being zebra. And Glorfindel didn't need saving anyway.

As I applied the technicolor treatment to zebra/rabbit, the word that kept popping into my mind was consistent. By my estimation, there is a very narrow tinfoil path for zebra/rabbit (zebrabbit? zebbit?) to be baddie teammates with Glorfindel:

1) Glorfindel has to be a baddie Toaster (this much I can swallow)

2) Rabbit and/or teammates had to think that Glorfindel wasn't going to claim out of nobility and they were trying to scramble to save him from himself (possible but very tinfoily)

3) LoRab was not a teammate and the baddie team worked to eliminate her (possible to see but I feel like most of the heat brought against LoRab was because Nutella's flip somehow made her look worse and teammate like, which some disbelieve now due to later discussions of lore and possible factions)

I'll give rabbit a neutral-but-trending-civ read for now. I feel almost comfortable with his alignment after looking through my vote lists. Both zebra and rabbit mixed it up with Ricochet, which is strange but kind of consistent too. And zebra wasn't pushing the If-Nutella-flips-bad-BR-looks-worse case. Zebra went after LoRab her answers not being very direct in nature. In other words, zebra wasn't just taking an easy swipe; she went after substance or lack thereof.

And unless teammates honestly thought Glorfindel wasn't going to claim AND felt he was necessary to save, you're right- a save attempt on Glorfindel makes no sense. This makes me want to go back and take a second look at DrumBeats. What are your thoughts on him now?

[Epignosis]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

Somebody wants to lynch you and therefore civilians can't win?

How is INH the closest thing to a confirmed civilian?

If you are good, can you not find a way to prove your point without breaking the rules?

My suggestion would be to stop with the five page essays. I guarantee you most people aren't reading them.

Lunch is over Epi so I will have to answer your questions later (on the way home or tonight). And by that, I mean answer them to the best of my ability. I am so constrained here by what I feel I can't say, it's ridiculous. I have a question for you though - how does me being good help me get around the rules? I'd love to know, it might help me lots, thanks!

Tell us who needs to be lynched and why.

That's all there is to it.

[Epignosis]

And now that I post my question to Epi I see he's no longer signed in.

Little kid's birthday party. I didn't mind two dozen screaming children. The hostess makes a mean Margarita.

A question for Epi, since I see him online. What are your thoughts on Rabbit right now? You suggested he was part of a save on Glorfindel at the end of Day 6. Have your thoughts changed at all? I'm running him through my technicolor analysis right now along with Glorfindel and Ricochet (since he was at odds with rabbit).

rabbit8 has been away for a while, but I have a good memory when it comes to mafia, and he strikes me as no different than himself, which, in this scenario, is important, because zebra was doing the zebra, by which I mean doing whatever zebra does with two extended middle fingers. That neither one has struck me as artificial in any capacity sits well with me. I realize that isn't particularly helpful, but I wasn't paying much attention to either.

My thinking that rabbit tried to save Glorfindel was stupid because I wasn't thinking in terms of rabbit being zebra. And Glorfindel didn't need saving anyway.

As I applied the technicolor treatment to zebra/rabbit, the word that kept popping into my mind was consistent. By my estimation, there is a very narrow tinfoil path for zebra/rabbit (zebrabbit? zebbit?) to be baddie teammates with Glorfindel:

1) Glorfindel has to be a baddie Toaster (this much I can swallow)
Why?

2) Rabbit and/or teammates had to think that Glorfindel wasn't going to claim out of nobility and they were trying to scramble to save him from himself (possible but very tinfoily)
That makes no sense.

3) LoRab was not a teammate and the baddie team worked to eliminate her (possible to see but I feel like most of the heat brought against LoRab was because Nutella's flip somehow made her look worse and teammate like, which some disbelieve now due to later discussions of lore and possible factions)
Do you think Lorab's lynch was a good one?

I'll give rabbit a neutral-but-trending-civ read for now. I feel almost comfortable with his alignment after looking through my vote lists. Both zebra and rabbit mixed it up with Ricochet, which is strange but kind of consistent too. And zebra wasn't pushing the If-Nutella-flips-bad-BR-looks-worse case. Zebra went after LoRab her answers not being very direct in nature. In other words, zebra wasn't just taking an easy swipe; she went after substance or lack thereof.

And unless teammates honestly thought Glorfindel wasn't going to claim AND felt he was necessary to save, you're right- a save attempt on Glorfindel makes no sense. This makes me want to go back and take a second look at DrumBeats. What are your thoughts on him now?

Questions in yellow.

I would still lynch DrumBeats.

[Epignosis]

If Glorfindel is genuine and good, does that change anyone's thinking on DrWilgy?

[Dex]

Glorfindel, please answer this question honestly: are you part of the Cavil faction?

[G-Man]

Answers/responses in orange.

And now that I post my question to Epi I see he's no longer signed in.

Little kid's birthday party. I didn't mind two dozen screaming children. The hostess makes a mean Margarita.

A question for Epi, since I see him online. What are your thoughts on Rabbit right now? You suggested he was part of a save on Glorfindel at the end of Day 6. Have your thoughts changed at all? I'm running him through my technicolor analysis right now along with Glorfindel and Ricochet (since he was at odds with rabbit).

rabbit8 has been away for a while, but I have a good memory when it comes to mafia, and he strikes me as no different than himself, which, in this scenario, is important, because zebra was doing the zebra, by which I mean doing whatever zebra does with two extended middle fingers. That neither one has struck me as artificial in any capacity sits well with me. I realize that isn't particularly helpful, but I wasn't paying much attention to either.

My thinking that rabbit tried to save Glorfindel was stupid because I wasn't thinking in terms of rabbit being zebra. And Glorfindel didn't need saving anyway.

As I applied the technicolor treatment to zebra/rabbit, the word that kept popping into my mind was consistent. By my estimation, there is a very narrow tinfoil path for zebra/rabbit (zebrabbit? zebbit?) to be baddie teammates with Glorfindel:

1) Glorfindel has to be a baddie Toaster (this much I can swallow)
Why?
Because now that he confesses to be a Toaster, I feel validated in suspicions of him. Early on he was asking questions about Toaster mechanics. That led me to believe he was one. If, in fact there are more than just one good one, his continued pattern of answering questions with questioms and indirect statements frustrates the hell out of me and leads me to believe he is not one of the good ones. If he wanted to convince us he's good, he'd have cut the proverbial crap a long time ago and started giving us direct answers. The fact that he only gives short, to-the-point answers when cornered and badgered to the breaking point speaks volumes to me.

2) Rabbit and/or teammates had to think that Glorfindel wasn't going to claim out of nobility and they were trying to scramble to save him from himself (possible but very tinfoily)
That makes no sense.
I call this possible only because you'll see just about anything the more you play the game of mafia. For this to be the case, Glorfindel's teammates would have to feel desperate to save him against his will. Desperation is not something I feel that I've seen out of anyone yet, which is why I said this was very tinfoily.

3) LoRab was not a teammate and the baddie team worked to eliminate her (possible to see but I feel like most of the heat brought against LoRab was because Nutella's flip somehow made her look worse and teammate like, which some disbelieve now due to later discussions of lore and possible factions)
Do you think Lorab's lynch was a good one?
I don't know. Having never seen the show, I have to defer to the people who know the lore when it comes to this sort of thing. I'm not crazy about it because I don't want to get steered down the wrong thought process by someone's faulty recounting of show lore. It seems like there are enough people familiar with the show playing that someone would call out that kind of shenanigans.

The lore folk have made some pretty convincing posts on the possibility that #3 was civ-aligned since she revolts against Cavil on the show. Remembering the small baddie team setup of you Biblical game leaves me open to the idea of several Toasters being anti-Cavil / pro-town in this game.

I'll give rabbit a neutral-but-trending-civ read for now. I feel almost comfortable with his alignment after looking through my vote lists. Both zebra and rabbit mixed it up with Ricochet, which is strange but kind of consistent too. And zebra wasn't pushing the If-Nutella-flips-bad-BR-looks-worse case. Zebra went after LoRab her answers not being very direct in nature. In other words, zebra wasn't just taking an easy swipe; she went after substance or lack thereof.

And unless teammates honestly thought Glorfindel wasn't going to claim AND felt he was necessary to save, you're right- a save attempt on Glorfindel makes no sense. This makes me want to go back and take a second look at DrumBeats. What are your thoughts on him now?

Questions in yellow.

I would still lynch DrumBeats.

I need to take another look at DrumBeats. The Day 6 crazy isn't the only mark on his record. He got weird the day Nero died soon. Not necessarily a pattern but it doesn't seem wise to me to get weird around lynches that feel as important as that one did.

[insertnamehere]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

I looked over some of your recent posts and here's what I read:

Civilians are in a bad situation because we keep thinking that cylon = bad when really it's all very complicated and you have very specific info that would stop us from lynching you but if you reveal it you'll get modkilled and anyone who thinks you're deflecting is simply not listening to you.

(Also, how am I a confirmed townie? Did I miss something?)

[Glorfindel]

So Say We All!

OK, I'm back for a while so I'll try to work through all of this for you...

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

Somebody wants to lynch you and therefore civilians can't win?
Someone I firmly believe to be a fellow Townie wants to lynch me because he STILL hasn't got it. If one takes that as indicative of the approach of our team then... Yeah, pretty much!

How is INH the closest thing to a confirmed civilian?
I believe I made that estimation on the basis that it was "my opinion"?

If you are good, can you not find a way to prove your point without breaking the rules?
I AM good but I'm afraid I'm not THAT good

My suggestion would be to stop with the five page essays. I guarantee you most people aren't reading them.
You may very well be correct there Epi but it is the only way I am able to communicate to you (All) what I can't otherwise say... If you are right and no one is paying attention to what I'm saying then I think our cause is pretty much lost

[Glorfindel]

Glorfindel, please answer this question honestly: are you part of the Cavil faction?

Dex, if by 'Cavil faction' (which while I understand why you'd made the assumption that there is one but if you'd been following what I've been saying there is a possibility, however slight, that there may not be) you mean Mafia or any allegiance other than to the Town this game, I can assure you that the answer is an unequivocal 'NO'.

[Glorfindel]

Because now that he confesses to be a Toaster, I feel validated in suspicions of him. Early on he was asking questions about Toaster mechanics. That led me to believe he was one. If, in fact there are more than just one good one, his continued pattern of answering questions with questioms and indirect statements frustrates the hell out of me and leads me to believe he is not one of the good ones. If he wanted to convince us he's good, he'd have cut the proverbial crap a long time ago and started giving us direct answers. The fact that he only gives short, to-the-point answers when cornered and badgered to the breaking point speaks volumes to me.

G-Man, see... you've done it again... Still, there's enough in this post that gives me hope that you are not totally lost. I KNOW you think I'm bad and have done practically all game but I want to ask you to do something for me - for the good of the entire Town. You've stated a fact there in your second sentence. I understand completely how you've come to your conclusion (and you're still mistaken) but I challenge you to put aside what you think you know about this game and put yourself in my shoes. I know it's hard, but re-read what I said in my 'I am a Cylon post'. There IS another spin to be out on what you've pointed out there that you're missing. It might sound far fetched but it's the truth. I expect you'll still want to lynch me and I accept that but I've not given up hope that you can't see the truth.

[Glorfindel]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

I looked over some of your recent posts and here's what I read:

Civilians are in a bad situation because we keep thinking that cylon = bad when really it's all very complicated and you have very specific info that would stop us from lynching you but if you reveal it you'll get modkilled and anyone who thinks you're deflecting is simply not listening to you.

(Also, how am I a confirmed townie? Did I miss something?)

If you still think you want to lynch me at the end of this Day phase, Yup!

[Glorfindel]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

Somebody wants to lynch you and therefore civilians can't win?

How is INH the closest thing to a confirmed civilian?

If you are good, can you not find a way to prove your point without breaking the rules?

My suggestion would be to stop with the five page essays. I guarantee you most people aren't reading them.

Lunch is over Epi so I will have to answer your questions later (on the way home or tonight). And by that, I mean answer them to the best of my ability. I am so constrained here by what I feel I can't say, it's ridiculous. I have a question for you though - how does me being good help me get around the rules? I'd love to know, it might help me lots, thanks!

Tell us who needs to be lynched and why.

That's all there is to it.

My previous No. 1 suspect (Black Rock) appears to have given up the ghost. Without a substitute, I expect it's pointless to pursue that lead as after an appropriate period of time, I assume she will just be modkilled.

I confess that I'm highly conflicted about DrWilgy. Originally, I suspected him on the basis of my interaction with my good Buddy IAWY early in the game - it was clear that something was up. After he came forward as a Cylon EoD5, I figured that it was just that he was a Cylon that was the reason for my initial suspicion and dismissed him as a fellow Cylon and went cold on my suspicion of him. On it's own, I'd be prepared to almost leave it at that. But then there is the bizarre interaction with our friend Polo at EoD5 that I raised the following Night phase. Polo who until then appeared to be on top of his game seemed unduly rattled at that point. Following EoD6, I accused Polo and Dex of being Mafia buddies plotting my demise in the hours following my non-lynching and they were quite adamant that they'd both vote for me this Day phase. Dex does (gotta admire a man that sticks to his word <insert eye-rolling smilie>) but Polo goes off and votes S-V-S? It just seems rather odd behaviour to me - although by Day 7 in this game, nothing should surprise me...

I have said this before and I agree that something is up with Drumbeats. If you look at his early posts (although he's not been playing on this site long) he clearly has a good grasp on how to play these games. The thing that first made me suspicious of him was the GTH reads that he posted hours after 3J went through that exercise early on Day 6. It looked to me like his reads were a 'knock off' of what the majority were saying.

The most suspicious character to me though is ObscureAllure. It's a bit hard to follow her many insanified posts but she claimed a connection between DrWilgy and I for which there is no basis in fact as far as I can see (when I was saying he was suspicious for much of five Day phases) Then there was this post:

I Have been right about Nutella, LoRab, Wigly all being cylons and was right about LC being bad and you have NO meta to go off of for me and I'm a top suspect.

Firstly, Zebs thought she was bad and that carries some weight with me. Again, she is another of the anti-Cylon clique yet I don't recall that she ever claimed? I'm happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong about that. At the time all Cylon claiming was going on, I was satisfied with her explanation but in retrospect and looking at her attitude towards Cylons, it all seems rather odd to me.

I know I'm sounding kinda useless here but I don't know with any certainty the identity of the Mafia team other than the suspicions that I've voiced. I'm fairly certain though that if there are a couple of Cylons that ARE Mafia, they'll be driving the gullible amongst us on a campaign against all the remaining Cylons (Town aligned) to distract us from them and that to me, looks exactly like what ObscureAllure is doing.

[Glorfindel]

Seeing this is 'Glorfindel Hour' here at The Syndicate :P I know that poor Sig was having his wisdom teeth out but has anyone seen 3J?

[Ricochet]

Hooray for an extra day, to be honest I fell asleep last night. Plus I have a concert in a few hours, so I'll join in the period after.

Right now, I'm leaning independent at worst (on the town-indy-bad spectrum) on Glorfindel, his plead honestly seems to be going deep. Just like Epig, I'd hate to be duped by all this, because it would be one hell of a dupe considering how much effort and word craft Glor has put into it, but I'd almost be willing to assume responsability; Glorfindel would surely never ever find clemency again, at least from me, after such a stunt, if he is indeed bad.

I confess I did not pick up on what he is trying to hint at; it's not that I'm terrible at it (although semi-closed setups make me perform worse in this regard), it's just that it must be way hidden inside his pages of writing and I'd probably need one more point of the pencil in the right direction. I get the idea that mafia might be trying to savor the push of his mislynch, if he is indeed town, but I still find him hesistant or inadequate in being specific about it. I'm really perplexed by his vision that things are not what it seems, that past Cylons who might have been bad may not in fact have been at all, but what more can be said, if that's the viewpoint he likes to drum on. But yeah, all the rest of his plead is sort of making me reconsider his status.

To answer Epig's question, I think with LoRab, Wilgy and Glorfindel all having being "caught" via the Amnesty Act and having claimed good Cylon, it's getting weirdly crowded and serendipitous for all three to be genuine (at least according to, I'd say, the maximum we could admit, via lore, regarding the original Cylon numbers: four bad, four good/rebel ... this doesn't take into account the F5). TBH, Wilgy and Dex, I think, gave me the same bonding impression as Glor and Sig are linked right now. Dex even wrote a big defense of Wilgy which sounded logical. So, urgh.

[Ricochet]

Seeing this is 'Glorfindel Hour' here at The Syndicate :P I know that poor Sig was having his wisdom teeth out but has anyone seen 3J?

Where do you know that about sig from?

[G-Man]

If Glorfindel is genuine and good, does that change anyone's thinking on DrWilgy?

A pro-town Glorfindel flip would force me to re-think a lot of things about this game and my ability to be effective in it. My pro-town leanings for Wilgy are dependent on my civ read of Dex. As long as he didn't give me reason to doubt my civ read on him, I'd be willing to keep on believing that Wilgy could be good.

[Polo]

All that being said, I'm gonna have a hard time not voting for Glorfindel today. Yes, I think there's a very good chance he's Caprica Six, but there's still some definite ambiguity as to her motives, and I have some doubts that they line up with the civilian ones.

Also, I think that lynching Glorfindel would be the most educational move at this point. He's the new hot topic around here, and revealing his ultimate orientation would definitely shine some light on some personal motivations.

And THIS is EXACTLY the reason why I have little hope that we can win this game The closest thing we have to a confirmed Townie in this game (in my opinion) doing EXACTLY what I've been warning against Can you people not read anything I say?

Somebody wants to lynch you and therefore civilians can't win?

How is INH the closest thing to a confirmed civilian?

If you are good, can you not find a way to prove your point without breaking the rules?

My suggestion would be to stop with the five page essays. I guarantee you most people aren't reading them.

Lunch is over Epi so I will have to answer your questions later (on the way home or tonight). And by that, I mean answer them to the best of my ability. I am so constrained here by what I feel I can't say, it's ridiculous. I have a question for you though - how does me being good help me get around the rules? I'd love to know, it might help me lots, thanks!

Tell us who needs to be lynched and why.

That's all there is to it.

My previous No. 1 suspect (Black Rock) appears to have given up the ghost. Without a substitute, I expect it's pointless to pursue that lead as after an appropriate period of time, I assume she will just be modkilled.

I confess that I'm highly conflicted about DrWilgy. Originally, I suspected him on the basis of my interaction with my good Buddy IAWY early in the game - it was clear that something was up. After he came forward as a Cylon EoD5, I figured that it was just that he was a Cylon that was the reason for my initial suspicion and dismissed him as a fellow Cylon and went cold on my suspicion of him. On it's own, I'd be prepared to almost leave it at that. But then there is the bizarre interaction with our friend Polo at EoD5 that I raised the following Night phase. Polo who until then appeared to be on top of his game seemed unduly rattled at that point. Following EoD6, I accused Polo and Dex of being Mafia buddies plotting my demise in the hours following my non-lynching and they were quite adamant that they'd both vote for me this Day phase. Dex does (gotta admire a man that sticks to his word <insert eye-rolling smilie>) but Polo goes off and votes S-V-S? It just seems rather odd behaviour to me - although by Day 7 in this game, nothing should surprise me...

I have said this before and I agree that something is up with Drumbeats. If you look at his early posts (although he's not been playing on this site long) he clearly has a good grasp on how to play these games. The thing that first made me suspicious of him was the GTH reads that he posted hours after 3J went through that exercise early on Day 6. It looked to me like his reads were a 'knock off' of what the majority were saying.

The most suspicious character to me though is ObscureAllure. It's a bit hard to follow her many insanified posts but she claimed a connection between DrWilgy and I for which there is no basis in fact as far as I can see (when I was saying he was suspicious for much of five Day phases) Then there was this post:

I Have been right about Nutella, LoRab, Wigly all being cylons and was right about LC being bad and you have NO meta to go off of for me and I'm a top suspect.

Firstly, Zebs thought she was bad and that carries some weight with me. Again, she is another of the anti-Cylon clique yet I don't recall that she ever claimed? I'm happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong about that. At the time all Cylon claiming was going on, I was satisfied with her explanation but in retrospect and looking at her attitude towards Cylons, it all seems rather odd to me.

I know I'm sounding kinda useless here but I don't know with any certainty the identity of the Mafia team other than the suspicions that I've voiced. I'm fairly certain though that if there are a couple of Cylons that ARE Mafia, they'll be driving the gullible amongst us on a campaign against all the remaining Cylons (Town aligned) to distract us from them and that to me, looks exactly like what ObscureAllure is doing.

I distrust you completely.

You're a bad Cylon along with S~V~S. I am certain of that.

And is ObscureAllure the civ Cylon you want lynched? Or is OA a human with a strong rolepower you guys need dead ASAP?

[Epignosis]

What distinguishes a bad Cylon from a good one, and how do you determine that?

[Polo]

What distinguishes a bad Cylon from a good one, and how do you determine that?

A bad Cylon is a Cylon whose win conditions should be incompatible with those of the good Humans, who need Cavil's faction dead.

A good Cylon is a Cylon who shares win conditions with humans and/or who need Cavil's faction dead.

[Ricochet]

If Glorfindel flips good, shade-throwers GMan and Polo are in big poop.

What distinguishes a bad Cylon from a good one, and how do you determine that?

If their toast is crunchy or soggy.

[Epignosis]

What distinguishes a bad Cylon from a good one, and how do you determine that?

A bad Cylon is a Cylon whose win conditions should be incompatible with those of the good Humans, who need Cavil's faction dead.

A good Cylon is a Cylon who shares win conditions with humans and/or who need Cavil's faction dead.

You only answered the first question. I've underlined the part you've missed.

[Polo]

What distinguishes a bad Cylon from a good one, and how do you determine that?

A bad Cylon is a Cylon whose win conditions should be incompatible with those of the good Humans, who need Cavil's faction dead.

A good Cylon is a Cylon who shares win conditions with humans and/or who need Cavil's faction dead.

You only answered the first question. I've underlined the part you've missed.

Lore.

[Epignosis]

Tell me your opinion on S~V~S's interactions / treatment of DrWilgy.

[Polo]

If Glorfindel is a good Cylon, he'd probably has to be good along with Wilgy. I believe the civ-aligned Cylons would have BTSC with each other, and Glorf stated that he highly suspected me being mafia for correcting Wilgy's orthographically incorrect claim.

I believe these propositions...

- Glorfindel is good;
- DrWilgy is bad.

... are mutually exclusive.

linki: will do in a moment, Epig

[Polo]

EBWOP:

- Glorfindel is good;
- DrWilgy is good

I had a brainfart. Sorry.

[Epignosis]

If Glorfindel is a good Cylon, he'd probably has to be good along with Wilgy. I believe the civ-aligned Cylons would have BTSC with each other, and Glorf stated that he highly suspected me being mafia for correcting Wilgy's orthographically incorrect claim.

On what basis? I have no BTSC.

[Dex]

Dex, if by 'Cavil faction' (which while I understand why you'd made the assumption that there is one but if you'd been following what I've been saying there is a possibility, however slight, that there may not be) you mean Mafia or any allegiance other than to the Town this game, I can assure you that the answer is an unequivocal 'NO'.

This is, in fact, an equivocal answer. By Cavil faction I do NOT mean mafia or anything about allegiance at all since, strictly speaking, there is no mafia in this game. The term is never used by Goldama. This is how you are currently trying to deny your role while technically not lying about it. Sure, you're not mafia, because there is no mafia. There are sets of compatible and incompatible win conditions - no civs, scum, town, good or bad.
But there is a Cavil faction, and I would like to ask you, please, for an unequivocal yes or no one-word answer: are you part of the Cavil faction?

But I do not expect to get one. Lord-a-mercy, if Glorf escapes lynching today I'm going to need a large dosage of subscription-strength chill pills.

[Epignosis]

"Are you a duck?"

"If by 'duck' you mean 'goose,' then I am definitely not a duck."

[Ricochet]

Dex, if by 'Cavil faction' (which while I understand why you'd made the assumption that there is one but if you'd been following what I've been saying there is a possibility, however slight, that there may not be) you mean Mafia or any allegiance other than to the Town this game, I can assure you that the answer is an unequivocal 'NO'.

This is, in fact, an equivocal answer. By Cavil faction I do NOT mean mafia or anything about allegiance at all since, strictly speaking, there is no mafia in this game. The term is never used by Goldama. This is how you are currently trying to deny your role while technically not lying about it. Sure, you're not mafia, because there is no mafia. There are sets of compatible and incompatible win conditions - no civs, scum, town, good or bad. But there is a Cavil faction, and I would like to ask you, please, for an unequivocal yes or no one-word answer: are you part of the Cavil faction?

But I do not expect to get one. Lord-a-mercy, if Glorf escapes lynching today I'm going to need a large dosage of subscription-strength chill pills.

I thought the Host never classified the roles openly, not that him never using the town-mafia tags means there is no town and no mafia.

Seriously, if the game is actually this bastard as you imply (and how Silverwolf suggested as early as Day Two, I think), I'm losing faith trying to discern anything anymore.

[Ricochet]

Then again, we're talking about a Host who co-designed a "classic" game for mafia and 3 civilians...

[G-Man]

Because now that he confesses to be a Toaster, I feel validated in suspicions of him. Early on he was asking questions about Toaster mechanics. That led me to believe he was one. If, in fact there are more than just one good one, his continued pattern of answering questions with questioms and indirect statements frustrates the hell out of me and leads me to believe he is not one of the good ones. If he wanted to convince us he's good, he'd have cut the proverbial crap a long time ago and started giving us direct answers. The fact that he only gives short, to-the-point answers when cornered and badgered to the breaking point speaks volumes to me.

G-Man, see... you've done it again... Still, there's enough in this post that gives me hope that you are not totally lost. I KNOW you think I'm bad and have done practically all game but I want to ask you to do something for me - for the good of the entire Town. You've stated a fact there in your second sentence. I understand completely how you've come to your conclusion (and you're still mistaken) but I challenge you to put aside what you think you know about this game and put yourself in my shoes. I know it's hard, but re-read what I said in my 'I am a Cylon post'. There IS another spin to be out on what you've pointed out there that you're missing. It might sound far fetched but it's the truth. I expect you'll still want to lynch me and I accept that but I've not given up hope that you can't see the truth.

Alright, Glorfindel, enlighten me on something if you would. You admit that you are a Toaster and you claim to be a good one when it seems that the number of theoretical good ones remaining are all but accounted for. You refer to my sentence about you asking about Toaster mechanics early on.

Please answer the following question in one sentence, preferably in 35 words or fewer, and with as few dependent clauses as possible:

Why were you asking about Toaster mechanics in the game thread?