[ENDGAME] The Office Mafia

[Dom]

I am not answering any more questions about the checkability of statements. I assess them with Pam on a case by case basis. We are very capable.

Dom and Pam are very capable.

Check that.

[indiglo]

So, there is someone with the power to control other people's votes in the game. (I'm looking at Quin and SD as forced voters.) And there is someone who can force people to only ask questions. I suppose little by little we will continue to see more obvious powers at play. (And I wouldn't usually word things exactly that way, but... Pam, just in case, ya know?)

I think extended, long-winded conversations about Pam's power is spinning our wheels, but I do think a bit of conversation of how civs should use their powers is a good idea. It may not work until a little later in the game though, once we have established a nice, solid(ish) civ core.

I don't know for sure who I'll vote for today. I'm hoping there will be enough activity to glean from.

[Scotty]

hi JJJ and espers! Your predecessors were more silent than the 30th president of the USA. Thanks for being vocal!

My favorite one, since someone asked for more politics.

You never answered my post about why you would vote me over splints when Matt asked you. Can you pls?

Matt is my number one suspect. He named two suspects but clung to fingersplints. I say he and Scotty are teammates.

That doesn't really answer my question. why do you think we're teammates?
I will say that when we were Mafia together on Lost-again, Matt went bananas trying to get our own teammate, Bullz, lynched day 1. But that is not the case with me and him, I can assure you. I think Matt is just bad and that's it.

If Matt is bad I think this also looks bad for Scotty:

@Matt Are you silenced? Where have you been?

It's really early in the day to be calling someone out for being silenced? It could be he knows he is silenced and trying to draw attention to it.

eyyyyy I'm glad we both are contemplating that Matt is bad.
Why is it too early to be calling someone out for not posting? How are we to know the terms of silencing? He hasn't posted since before the day 1 lynch, where he threw a vote on me and slid down hi escape slide.. That's a long time. So as a courtesy I want to know if he's silenced before I place a vote down on him without a proper defense.

Would you currently vote for Matt, since you seem to be contemplating it and aren't so concerned with his silencing?

@Dom is it possible to get that lovely Post History chart JJJ made stickied in the first page por favor?

[indiglo]

Also, RIP Rabbit I was looking forward to playing with you again.

And in your post, I was the #1 fucker. That just touches a gal's heart, ya know?

[Scotty]

So, there is someone with the power to control other people's votes in the game. (I'm looking at Quin and SD as forced voters.) And there is someone who can force people to only ask questions. I suppose little by little we will continue to see more obvious powers at play. (And I wouldn't usually word things exactly that way, but... Pam, just in case, ya know?)

I think extended, long-winded conversations about Pam's power is spinning our wheels, but I do think a bit of conversation of how civs should use their powers is a good idea. It may not work until a little later in the game though, once we have established a nice, solid(ish) civ core.

I don't know for sure who I'll vote for today. I'm hoping there will be enough activity to glean from.

Jim – A Prankster, Jim can insanify one person per day with a curse of his choosing.
Someone is having a beary good time. Keep your staplers close, y'all!

[Scotty]

Hey @Zeus! I see you voted for sig with no warning. Is it the same reasoning you had of voting him on day 1?

I'm gonna vote leetic for now. Could move to Matt down the line.

[Scotty]

@Drumbeats I am still planning on looking at the Wilgy vote breakdown and attempting to find something fishy. For now, I'm off to get my car fixed/doc appt

[indiglo]

So, there is someone with the power to control other people's votes in the game. (I'm looking at Quin and SD as forced voters.) And there is someone who can force people to only ask questions. I suppose little by little we will continue to see more obvious powers at play. (And I wouldn't usually word things exactly that way, but... Pam, just in case, ya know?)

I think extended, long-winded conversations about Pam's power is spinning our wheels, but I do think a bit of conversation of how civs should use their powers is a good idea. It may not work until a little later in the game though, once we have established a nice, solid(ish) civ core.

I don't know for sure who I'll vote for today. I'm hoping there will be enough activity to glean from.

Jim – A Prankster, Jim can insanify one person per day with a curse of his choosing.
Someone is having a beary good time. Keep your staplers close, y'all!

Right!

And here is Meredith's role: Meredith – Meredith gives people who miss votes some of her booze. She will control who those players vote for the next day. She may only assign two players to vote any one person.

So let me do a little bit of checking...

Yes, SD is likely boozed by Meredith... but not Quin. He didn't miss the vote. There will likely also be someone else still who will be boozed by Meredith for missing yesterday. So Quin is being forced to vote for SVS at the hand of a baddie. Unless there's another civ role who can control votes, which I see as unlikely, since there is unlikely to be 2 civ vote forcers.

[fingersplints]

hi JJJ and espers! Your predecessors were more silent than the 30th president of the USA. Thanks for being vocal!

My favorite one, since someone asked for more politics.

You never answered my post about why you would vote me over splints when Matt asked you. Can you pls?

Matt is my number one suspect. He named two suspects but clung to fingersplints. I say he and Scotty are teammates.

That doesn't really answer my question. why do you think we're teammates?
I will say that when we were Mafia together on Lost-again, Matt went bananas trying to get our own teammate, Bullz, lynched day 1. But that is not the case with me and him, I can assure you. I think Matt is just bad and that's it.

If Matt is bad I think this also looks bad for Scotty:

@Matt Are you silenced? Where have you been?

It's really early in the day to be calling someone out for being silenced? It could be he knows he is silenced and trying to draw attention to it.

eyyyyy I'm glad we both are contemplating that Matt is bad.
Why is it too early to be calling someone out for not posting? How are we to know the terms of silencing? He hasn't posted since before the day 1 lynch, where he threw a vote on me and slid down hi escape slide.. That's a long time. So as a courtesy I want to know if he's silenced before I place a vote down on him without a proper defense.

Would you currently vote for Matt, since you seem to be contemplating it and aren't so concerned with his silencing?

@Dom is it possible to get that lovely Post History chart JJJ made stickied in the first page por favor?

I think most often silencing is a night action, and the person is silenced the following day only. Most frequently, imo, but not always. So that's why it seems weird to me for you to be saying someone is silenced hours into the start of a day. That combined with Matt pushing me over you look bad for you. I'm not one to say someone is definitely bad based on someone else until I am sure of that person. I don't regularly like to vote a silenced person unless I feel strong about it. I like to give people a chance to defend when possible. I have seen others say this too. And I have also seen baddies manipulate this by silencing one of their own in trouble. (Either real or pretend silenced)

So yes I am considering Matt. I am considering you. But I'll keep my vote where it is right now.

[DrumBeats]

Is SVS cursed or something? I'm a little weirded out by her baby bear post, lol.

I'm still reading along despite having minimal time to engage fully in the game the last few days (which is not likely to get better soon, Alex and I are going out of town on Thursday and coming back Sunday, just FYI. So I should still be able to mafia, but I doubt my post count will go up a lot. And I work a bunch before then to finish the quarter signage change over at work.) I find the whole lengthy discussion about making good LD statements to be a waste of time frankly. All conversation like this does is allow baddies to weigh in on a topic that looks helpful but really is just an illusion. It lets them avoid talking about who they suspect. For this reason I suspect the people who are pushing to try to help Pam. Pam can handle her own job I'm sure.

I'm voting JJJ, despite agreeing with him on most things he has said.

I suspect INH and drumbeats the most at the moment (if I recall correctly who was involved in the discussion).

Quin was the other person involved, not INH. Though you honestly still should suspect INH, he's shady as hell

[Scotty]

hi JJJ and espers! Your predecessors were more silent than the 30th president of the USA. Thanks for being vocal!

My favorite one, since someone asked for more politics.

You never answered my post about why you would vote me over splints when Matt asked you. Can you pls?

Matt is my number one suspect. He named two suspects but clung to fingersplints. I say he and Scotty are teammates.

That doesn't really answer my question. why do you think we're teammates?
I will say that when we were Mafia together on Lost-again, Matt went bananas trying to get our own teammate, Bullz, lynched day 1. But that is not the case with me and him, I can assure you. I think Matt is just bad and that's it.

If Matt is bad I think this also looks bad for Scotty:

@Matt Are you silenced? Where have you been?

It's really early in the day to be calling someone out for being silenced? It could be he knows he is silenced and trying to draw attention to it.

eyyyyy I'm glad we both are contemplating that Matt is bad.
Why is it too early to be calling someone out for not posting? How are we to know the terms of silencing? He hasn't posted since before the day 1 lynch, where he threw a vote on me and slid down hi escape slide.. That's a long time. So as a courtesy I want to know if he's silenced before I place a vote down on him without a proper defense.

Would you currently vote for Matt, since you seem to be contemplating it and aren't so concerned with his silencing?

@Dom is it possible to get that lovely Post History chart JJJ made stickied in the first page por favor?

I think most often silencing is a night action, and the person is silenced the following day only. Most frequently, imo, but not always. So that's why it seems weird to me for you to be saying someone is silenced hours into the start of a day. That combined with Matt pushing me over you look bad for you. I'm not one to say someone is definitely bad based on someone else until I am sure of that person. I don't regularly like to vote a silenced person unless I feel strong about it. I like to give people a chance to defend when possible. I have seen others say this too. And I have also seen baddies manipulate this by silencing one of their own in trouble. (Either real or pretend silenced)

So yes I am considering Matt. I am considering you. But I'll keep my vote where it is right now.

But Matt wasn't pushing you over me. He voted me. Why does that make me bad?

[DrumBeats]

Scotty - The day one vote on Goldy is still contradictory to everything he said.

@ Scotty - When you get here, I want your analysis on the Wilgy votes por favor

Please point to what is contradictory and how I have not explained it to well enough to you.
I'm gonna do some analysis on the Wilgy votes this phase, but offhand leetic looks the most sketch out of anyone right now, mainly because of his driveby vote on Wilgy, and his nonchalance of getting back to the accusations thrown at him. Still waiting on a Matt.

You've explained as best you can I think, but I still find the vote very contradictory to the statement that we would learn more on the flip. Goldy was the player that we would learn the least from a flip, so that vote contradicts your statement imo.

[DrumBeats]

Is SVS cursed or something? I'm a little weirded out by her baby bear post, lol.

I'm still reading along despite having minimal time to engage fully in the game the last few days (which is not likely to get better soon, Alex and I are going out of town on Thursday and coming back Sunday, just FYI. So I should still be able to mafia, but I doubt my post count will go up a lot. And I work a bunch before then to finish the quarter signage change over at work.) I find the whole lengthy discussion about making good LD statements to be a waste of time frankly. All conversation like this does is allow baddies to weigh in on a topic that looks helpful but really is just an illusion. It lets them avoid talking about who they suspect. For this reason I suspect the people who are pushing to try to help Pam. Pam can handle her own job I'm sure.

I'm voting JJJ, despite agreeing with him on most things he has said.

I suspect INH and drumbeats the most at the moment (if I recall correctly who was involved in the discussion).

Quin was the other person involved, not INH. Though you honestly still should suspect INH, he's shady as hell

Also, how do you feel about LoRab?

[DrumBeats]

@ Leetic and Eloh - What are your current reads?

I do hope you aren't lumping me with this Leetic person by asking us both about our reads at the same time. At the moment I am most concerned with Quin for his/her "I'm a civ and you'll be sorry" post before EoD 1. As I've said before and as most people are probably tired of hearing...big games are difficult for me. I am trying to keep up, take notes, and participate as much as possible. I will have more things to say as time goes on, promise.

Not lumping you together, other than the fact that you were two recent posters who hadn't offered much in terms of reads. Other than Quin, who is your second largest scumread right now?

Leetic, actually. Epi pointed out that he voted without explanation. That on top of accusing me of talking nothing but fluff is concerning to me. Especially since he used the word "fluff". This makes em think he is not new to mafia even if new to this site. So yeah, Leetic.

I still have two pages to catch up on, but I'm posting this anyway cause I have to get breakfast for the kiddos and bake cookies and go to a momma and kid shin-dig, so I don't knwo when I will be able to read up.

I can confirm that leetic is not new to mafia, I have played with him before. Right now I've got a scum leaning null read on him.

[DrumBeats]

Matt is my number one suspect. He named two suspects but clung to fingersplints. I say he and Scotty are teammates.

[/quote]

I missed this one when it happened but just saw your quote on it. I agree that the two could be teammates, based on Matt's initial roundabout suspicion of Scotty. After the Goldy vote, Matt agreed with my opinion on Scotty's vote being off, conjectured that it could be because Scotty and Goldy were scumbuddies, and said he'd likely vote Goldy. Though he eventually voted for Scotty, it was only after I questioned this statement.

[DrumBeats]

So, there is someone with the power to control other people's votes in the game. (I'm looking at Quin and SD as forced voters.) And there is someone who can force people to only ask questions. I suppose little by little we will continue to see more obvious powers at play. (And I wouldn't usually word things exactly that way, but... Pam, just in case, ya know?)

I think extended, long-winded conversations about Pam's power is spinning our wheels, but I do think a bit of conversation of how civs should use their powers is a good idea. It may not work until a little later in the game though, once we have established a nice, solid(ish) civ core.

I don't know for sure who I'll vote for today. I'm hoping there will be enough activity to glean from.

Jim – A Prankster, Jim can insanify one person per day with a curse of his choosing.
Someone is having a beary good time. Keep your staplers close, y'all!

Right!

And here is Meredith's role: Meredith – Meredith gives people who miss votes some of her booze. She will control who those players vote for the next day. She may only assign two players to vote any one person.

So let me do a little bit of checking...

Yes, SD is likely boozed by Meredith... but not Quin. He didn't miss the vote. There will likely also be someone else still who will be boozed by Meredith for missing yesterday. So Quin is being forced to vote for SVS at the hand of a baddie. Unless there's another civ role who can control votes, which I see as unlikely, since there is unlikely to be 2 civ vote forcers.

Could also be Quin pulling a gambit to make us believe that. Definitely a possibility though.

[DrumBeats]

Current vote is on INH, but I would be down for a Scotty, leetic, or Quin vote as well. My suspicion of Matt hinges upon my suspicion of Scotty being accurate so I would rather hit Scotty first.

[S~V~S]

So, there is someone with the power to control other people's votes in the game. (I'm looking at Quin and SD as forced voters.) And there is someone who can force people to only ask questions. I suppose little by little we will continue to see more obvious powers at play. (And I wouldn't usually word things exactly that way, but... Pam, just in case, ya know?)

I think extended, long-winded conversations about Pam's power is spinning our wheels, but I do think a bit of conversation of how civs should use their powers is a good idea. It may not work until a little later in the game though, once we have established a nice, solid(ish) civ core.

I don't know for sure who I'll vote for today. I'm hoping there will be enough activity to glean from.

Jim – A Prankster, Jim can insanify one person per day with a curse of his choosing.
Someone is having a beary good time. Keep your staplers close, y'all!

Right!

And here is Meredith's role: Meredith – Meredith gives people who miss votes some of her booze. She will control who those players vote for the next day. She may only assign two players to vote any one person.

So let me do a little bit of checking...

Yes, SD is likely boozed by Meredith... but not Quin. He didn't miss the vote. There will likely also be someone else still who will be boozed by Meredith for missing yesterday. So Quin is being forced to vote for SVS at the hand of a baddie. Unless there's another civ role who can control votes, which I see as unlikely, since there is unlikely to be 2 civ vote forcers.

Could also be Quin pulling a gambit to make us believe that. Definitely a possibility though.

Do you really think so? I would think it unlikely, but what do I know? I was out all weekend and had to read Quin in ISO; would it surprise you to hear that his output during the night period made me feel much better about him? Would it surprise you to hear that his vote made me feel even better?

@Daisy; have you ever tried to tell someone without coming out and saying it? Might you try referencing a similar past occasion that might have been memorable? Especially if it was beary funny?

[G-Man]

I was looking forward to playing with you again.

[G-Man]

[Scotty]

I just got to thinking- what if leetic had his vote forced on day 1? Would Mafia have the ability to force someone on Night 0?

That doesn't explain his absence and lack of answering questions however.

Current vote is on INH, but I would be down for a Scotty, leetic, or Quin vote as well. My suspicion of Matt hinges upon my suspicion of Scotty being accurate so I would rather hit Scotty first.

I would rather you didn't

[JaggedJimmyJay]

S~V~S, any suspicion I have of you is barely defined right now. I don't figure you'll be a top vote candidate for me today. If nothing else, I am enjoying the way you're utilizing the semi-colon to push the boundaries of question-mania.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

leetic has put no effort into this at all, which is often a town-tell rather than a baddie tell. Evildoers tend to be at least engaged enough to pretend to care. There have been exceptions though. The only leetic post that bugs me at all is his most recent:

I am going to go with Customer Service tonight.

Why are you posting such fluffy, non-game-related stuff this late in? Surely you have something else to talk about?

It's hypocritical.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

He's pointing the finger at people answering for Matt and he votes for Goldy based on inactivity. He voted an inactive in Turf Wars if I recall, so I don't see a problem in that, however his reasoning bugs me a little. If he's voting for the sake of having things make sense after Goldy flips, wouldn't he vote for someone that would result in making the most sense if they were lynched?

Another valid point. If the premise is that a lynch flip will yield information to help progress reads into Day 2, then to lynch a lurker would seem the least productive option. There's nearly no information to be drawn from such a flip.

False. Voting patterns are information. Let's say she is lynched. If she (or you, now) is civ, we have lost a no-show. Never assume a no-show is getting replaced with ease. It was hard enough to fill the game. Thankfully you filled in for her, but she may have just been sitting in limbo, not helping civs at all. If she is civ, we can look at the ease at which people vote her, the votes people didn't case for her that look better when she flips. If she is mafia, then a) bingo and b) voting patterns once again. Were there any efforts to save her?

I dunno man. There's lots of info for me to pick apart. Instead we lynched our tracker, who had stuff to say.

I am not inspired, sir.

1. "Player X is not being helpful" is not an adequate reason to lynch someone in any day phase unless that unhelpfulness is perceived to be a deliberate baddie tactic -- any civilian is helpful by default because they provide a numbers advantage that cannot be discarded frivolously.

2. The information you've attached to this lynch is the information that can be attached to any lynch. It's the bare minimum possible information. I said that there could be nearly no information gleaned from a lurker lynch, not none at all. If information is what you seek, then the vote you placed is among the very least productive on the table. This is indeed a contradiction, and when "information" is cited as a reason to lynch a player with no posts at all, I view that dubiously.

I know you've already corrected this, but I will repeat it now so it doesn't infect the minds of readers -- replacements are easily confused. I replaced Bullzeye, not Goldy.

[Scotty]

leetic has put no effort into this at all, which is often a town-tell rather than a baddie tell. Evildoers tend to be at least engaged enough to pretend to care. There have been exceptions though. The only leetic post that bugs me at all is his most recent:

I am going to go with Customer Service tonight.

Why are you posting such fluffy, non-game-related stuff this late in? Surely you have something else to talk about?

It's hypocritical.

I wouldn't have seen that as a civ tell. Placing the initial vote on the person that ultimately got lynched, with no reasoning at all? He had ample time to defend his vote, and came back by bemoaning Elo's lack of gaming. Putting no effort into the game doesn't help the civs. It's like giving your checkbook to a child and counting on him to balance it for you.

Linki; @jjj yes, I apologize: I corrected myself after that

[JaggedJimmyJay]

leetic has put no effort into this at all, which is often a town-tell rather than a baddie tell. Evildoers tend to be at least engaged enough to pretend to care. There have been exceptions though. The only leetic post that bugs me at all is his most recent:

I am going to go with Customer Service tonight.

Why are you posting such fluffy, non-game-related stuff this late in? Surely you have something else to talk about?

It's hypocritical.

I wouldn't have seen that as a civ tell. Placing the initial vote on the person that ultimately got lynched, with no reasoning at all? He had ample time to defend his vote, and came back by bemoaning Elo's lack of gaming. Putting no effort into the game doesn't help the civs. It's like giving your checkbook to a child and counting on him to balance it for you.

Linki; @jjj yes, I apologize: I corrected myself after that

I hadn't seen his vote. If it went to Wilgy then I'd agree that's a bad look.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Well, his was the first Wilgy vote, so it's harder to accuse him of opportunism. Those that followed are worse at face value. I wasn't here as the lynch developed live, but at no point in my catching up did I find Wilgy suspicious; I even found him agreeable. I'll have to assess those votes individually to see who was properly invested.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Stated reasons for voting DrWilgy:

[1] leetic: N/A, he never mentioned his vote.

[2] insertnamehere: He had numerous exchanges with Wilgy on Day 1 that look quite like his exchanges with me on Day 2. Not a fan.

[3] Quin: Self-preservation, placed at the latest opportunity before he had to leave. No problem with that.

[4] Epignosis: Reasoning seems to be focused here. The numeral grades are essentially spam. I'm not a fan of how Epi treated Wilgy's comment that a bad INH might indicate a good Matt. I see nothing off-putting in that reasoning, and I share it.

[5] DFaraday: He sided with INH in his exchanges with Wilgy. I don't fault him for this. I'm reminded of Transistor.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm placing a vote on insertnamehere. Nearly everything he has posted has incited a negative reaction from me.

[Scotty]

He's pointing the finger at people answering for Matt and he votes for Goldy based on inactivity. He voted an inactive in Turf Wars if I recall, so I don't see a problem in that, however his reasoning bugs me a little. If he's voting for the sake of having things make sense after Goldy flips, wouldn't he vote for someone that would result in making the most sense if they were lynched?

Another valid point. If the premise is that a lynch flip will yield information to help progress reads into Day 2, then to lynch a lurker would seem the least productive option. There's nearly no information to be drawn from such a flip.

False. Voting patterns are information. Let's say she is lynched. If she (or you, now) is civ, we have lost a no-show. Never assume a no-show is getting replaced with ease. It was hard enough to fill the game. Thankfully you filled in for her, but she may have just been sitting in limbo, not helping civs at all. If she is civ, we can look at the ease at which people vote her, the votes people didn't case for her that look better when she flips. If she is mafia, then a) bingo and b) voting patterns once again. Were there any efforts to save her?

I dunno man. There's lots of info for me to pick apart. Instead we lynched our tracker, who had stuff to say.

I am not inspired, sir.

1. "Player X is not being helpful" is not an adequate reason to lynch someone in any day phase unless that unhelpfulness is perceived to be a deliberate baddie tactic -- any civilian is helpful by default because they provide a numbers advantage that cannot be discarded frivolously.

2. The information you've attached to this lynch is the information that can be attached to any lynch. It's the bare minimum possible information. I said that there could be nearly no information gleaned from a lurker lynch, not none at all. If information is what you seek, then the vote you placed is among the very least productive on the table. This is indeed a contradiction, and when "information" is cited as a reason to lynch a player with no posts at all, I view that dubiously.

I know you've already corrected this, but I will repeat it now so it doesn't infect the minds of readers -- replacements are easily confused. I replaced Bullzeye, not Goldy.

It's not about which info is 'more "helpful"'. That's not the crux of my argument. Both give information in how I like to solve the game. Instead of voting for exclusively tonal reads on day 1, which IMO I am shit at, I'm gonna go for no-posters if there are any. Because all in all, it's the safer bet that even if I don't catch a baddie, we're not losing a civ that is playing the game. Any civ that is just sitting back idly or non-participating hurts town in the long run anyway, so I don't ever regret voting the way I always do in these games.

I think what you and Drumbeats perceive as a contradiction is a clash in game solving methodology. My day 1 is my day 1. If you still find that contradictory to your views, I can't really convince y'all.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think what you and Drumbeats perceive as a contradiction is a clash in game solving methodology.

Could be.

If so, I'd encourage you to have more faith in your ability to make actual reads, because settling for the perceived "safe" lynch of a low-content player is the easiest first step toward a town loss. Day 1 information might be scarce, but it exists -- and I don't think you're incompetent in your ability to make reasonable judgments and vote accordingly.

[Scotty]

I think what you and Drumbeats perceive as a contradiction is a clash in game solving methodology.

Could be.

If so, I'd encourage you to have more faith in your ability to make actual reads, because settling for the perceived "safe" lynch of a low-content player is the easiest first step toward a town loss. Day 1 information might be scarce, but it exists -- and I don't think you're incompetent in your ability to make reasonable judgments and vote accordingly.

I appreciate the faith. But without voting patterns, you might as well light my hair on fire and call me Carrot Top.

Also heads up- just got out of the doc appt. I'm getting surgery early tomorrow and will do my best to participate for the later part of the day, but I'ma be sleepin off the anesthesia most of the day

[bea]

You guys. I'm really sorry. 2 missed votes is unheard of from me. I got swamped at work on sat and never did make it back to try to vote day 1 and I honestly forgot that there was a very strong likelyhood that there would be a night poll, so yesterday, I spent the day napping and trying to not brain. I am the suck. I promise I will get better.

RIP wigglcreed and wabbit.
Welcome espers and JJ.

@ quinn - I know I don't have a lot of post history. I am indeed sorry about that. Like others, I'm having a bit of trouble finding my footing yet. This isn't unusual for me at all. Takes me a few cycles to get into the swing of things. I didn't initially answer wigly's question to me because I was at work and quickly phone posting and also because I honestly didn't understand why he singled me out in asking it. It was a weird request to me. My answer may have seemed like a non-answer to you but it is truthful. I do not find myself often an early target. Most people hit the power players with their powers post game. I remember one game where SVS got hit by literally every single power possible on N1. In this game she got a curse and wabbit got a NK. I'm not a power player, so I don't ever really think of myself as someone who would get targeted early in the game.

I think that JJ is reading like JJ - that makes me happy. I think INH definitely comes out looking worse than JJ in their back and forth. If I had a second vote, I'd use it on INH at this point in time.

As it is, I don't want to miss a 3rd vote in a row and be the most lame mafia player in all of existence. I'm voting leetic. I doubt that will change but I promise to do a much better job of following along and providing what little insite I can than I did last cycle.

[Matt]

Matt is my number one suspect. He named two suspects but clung to fingersplints. I say he and Scotty are teammates.

I missed this one when it happened but just saw your quote on it. I agree that the two could be teammates, based on Matt's initial roundabout suspicion of Scotty. After the Goldy vote, Matt agreed with my opinion on Scotty's vote being off, conjectured that it could be because Scotty and Goldy were scumbuddies, and said he'd likely vote Goldy. Though he eventually voted for Scotty, it was only after I questioned this statement.

Per the underline, that is entirely false. You are lying. Why are you lying?

The story you are presenting is a lie to make me look totes bad here. "Though he eventually voted for Scotty cuz I called his ass out" lol nah bro. I'm pretty sure a baddie me would've seen you doubt my intentions with the Goldy thing, and I would've just pushed forward even more. IMO. But who really knows until you're in the scenario?

Question 2 (the first question was "Why are you lying?") - If I had gone ahead and voted for Goldy, how would you view me as opposed to the way you do now? Would you still see me as bad?

I'm asking because I feel like, no matter who I had voted for, you would have a reason to push me as bad and so I'm in a lose lose with you either way which I don't like.

@INH - Nah my feelings weren't hurt. You're simply the latest in a string of folks I've had to deal with who extremely dislike my playstyle, which is fair, because I'm really bad at this game haha. But still, I see no purpose in going on about it the way you did. I'd like to think you're civ because you sound genuine in your critique of me, but as I've stated before, Eloh and I played out a very similar scenario in Transistor and she ended up being bad.

Going to drop a prelim vote on Splintsy based on my suss of her Day 0, but not sure if it will stay there.

[Matt]

Lol. So I had a few windows open, and the following was supposed to be in the previous post...DEEERP...

***

RIP Wilgy
RIPifywg Rabbit

Bye Goldy and Bullz...oh Bullz...

Welcome Espers and 3J! Especially 3J, my knight in shining armor!

Sorry town (and Dom) for not voting in the night poll, that's lame, it won't happen again.

***

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Welcome Espers and 3J! Especially 3J, my knight in shining armor!

Hi Matt.

I don't mind indirectly defending you if that's the product of suspecting someone else. But understand that this is an investment for me in you. Please ensure I see a return on that investment. A number of people in this game either suspect you or have otherwise disparaged your methods. Use that as motivation and show me the goods. Get 'em.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think that JJ is reading like JJ - that makes me happy. I think INH definitely comes out looking worse than JJ in their back and forth. If I had a second vote, I'd use it on INH at this point in time.

As it is, I don't want to miss a 3rd vote in a row and be the most lame mafia player in all of existence. I'm voting leetic. I doubt that will change but I promise to do a much better job of following along and providing what little insite I can than I did last cycle.

bea, when you get a chance could you talk to me about these two things:

1. What about my exchange with INH makes you feel he emerges looking worse than I do?

2. What inspires your vote for leetic beyond just ensuring you don't miss the vote?

[Matt]

Welcome Espers and 3J! Especially 3J, my knight in shining armor!

Hi Matt.

I don't mind indirectly defending you if that's the product of suspecting someone else. But understand that this is an investment for me in you. Please ensure I see a return on that investment. A number of people in this game either suspect you or have otherwise disparaged your methods. Use that as motivation and show me the goods. Get 'em.

Lol. I'll try my best. Not to say I'm ever good at this wonderful game of Mafia, but Battlestar I was downright absolute horrific, so now I'm questioning myself at every turn.

Do you think Drum outright lied about his story on me, per "he said he'd likely vote for Goldy" (which I never said), or do you think he was just mistaken?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Welcome Espers and 3J! Especially 3J, my knight in shining armor!

Hi Matt.

I don't mind indirectly defending you if that's the product of suspecting someone else. But understand that this is an investment for me in you. Please ensure I see a return on that investment. A number of people in this game either suspect you or have otherwise disparaged your methods. Use that as motivation and show me the goods. Get 'em.

Lol. I'll try my best. Not to say I'm ever good at this wonderful game of Mafia, but Battlestar I was downright absolute horrific, so now I'm questioning myself at every turn.

Do you think Drum outright lied about his story on me, per "he said he'd likely vote for Goldy" (which I never said), or do you think he was just mistaken?

*grabs Matt by the neck of his t-shirt and gets in his face*

Now you listen here, soldier. I don't want to hear another damn word about all this "I'm not good at Mafia" bullshit. You got me? If you're one of us, you've got a whole town relying on you; we're a damned team. And we need your head in the game. If you think someone is bad, then TEAR THEM APART. I don't give a rat's ass what happened in Battlestar Galactica, that's over! It's a new game, and you're a new Matt!

Ahem.

I think misinterpretation is more likely than misrepresentation on DrumBeats's part in this case, primarily because I think these kinds of blatant lies about plainly visible thread content are just dumb baddie moves. I'll let him answer you though before I plant my flag fully in that camp.

[Epignosis]

I'm not good at mafia.

[DrumBeats]

I'm wondering if I should vote for Goldy out of left field.

I do think Scotty's bad and if I think he's bad, then I think it's possible he would vote for his own no show teammate just cuz he knows nobody would follow him (I base this on other games where Scotty votes for a low poster Day 1 and they never get lynched).

Hrm.

Anyway, have to go for a bit but I'll be back by deadline.

^ is the post I am referring to Matt.

I do see how the phrase "likely" was wrong to describe this, so my bad on that, I didn't want to go back and find the post at the time, but I got the jist of it right. However, the same general point applies that, when you thought Scotty was bad, you used that as a reason to justify a hypothetical vote on Goldy rather than on Scotty.

So for question one, I wasn't lying, but I do see how I accidentally misrepresented the situation a bit there. I did in my following post question your vote on Goldy, and you did place your vote on Scotty afterwards. I'm not sure if your vote would've gone on Scotty or Goldy had I not questioned it, but I do know that you had initially discussed voting Goldy for your suspicions on Scotty.

As for question two, it would've made you look worse imo. The fact that you voted Scotty isn't what makes me believe you two could be teammates. It is the fact that you brought up voting for Goldy due to your suspicion of Scotty, which is a roundabout and unnecessary approach unless you had reason to not want Scotty out.

So yeah, you are in a "lose/lose" scenario because that comment, coupled with your push of FS over Scotty for the same offense, makes me think you and Scotty are teamed regardless of your final vote.

I'm not a fan of how you tried to discredit my whole argument on the semantics of "likely" vs. "wondering if I should" and are trying to paint it as an unfair accusation based upon semantics. Seems to me like a great way to dodge the suspicions without ever having to defend them.

Now, I have a few questions for you,

1) Why consider voting for Goldy instead of Scotty when the reason you suspected Goldy is that you suspected Scotty?

2) Why is splints more of a scumread to you than Scotty?

[DrumBeats]

So, there is someone with the power to control other people's votes in the game. (I'm looking at Quin and SD as forced voters.) And there is someone who can force people to only ask questions. I suppose little by little we will continue to see more obvious powers at play. (And I wouldn't usually word things exactly that way, but... Pam, just in case, ya know?)

I think extended, long-winded conversations about Pam's power is spinning our wheels, but I do think a bit of conversation of how civs should use their powers is a good idea. It may not work until a little later in the game though, once we have established a nice, solid(ish) civ core.

I don't know for sure who I'll vote for today. I'm hoping there will be enough activity to glean from.

Jim – A Prankster, Jim can insanify one person per day with a curse of his choosing.
Someone is having a beary good time. Keep your staplers close, y'all!

Right!

And here is Meredith's role: Meredith – Meredith gives people who miss votes some of her booze. She will control who those players vote for the next day. She may only assign two players to vote any one person.

So let me do a little bit of checking...

Yes, SD is likely boozed by Meredith... but not Quin. He didn't miss the vote. There will likely also be someone else still who will be boozed by Meredith for missing yesterday. So Quin is being forced to vote for SVS at the hand of a baddie. Unless there's another civ role who can control votes, which I see as unlikely, since there is unlikely to be 2 civ vote forcers.

Could also be Quin pulling a gambit to make us believe that. Definitely a possibility though.

Do you really think so? I would think it unlikely, but what do I know? I was out all weekend and had to read Quin in ISO; would it surprise you to hear that his output during the night period made me feel much better about him? Would it surprise you to hear that his vote made me feel even better?

@Daisy; have you ever tried to tell someone without coming out and saying it? Might you try referencing a similar past occasion that might have been memorable? Especially if it was beary funny?

I think it should be considered at least. Until we have another vote-forcing role revealed, I feel both cases are relatively likely atm so I'm not discounting either.

Also would not surprise me to hear that the night made you feel better about Quin, I feel a bit better about him myself. The vote making you feel better surprises me a bit, but whatever floats your boat

[insertnamehere]

Sorry for being absent for the last 24 or so hours. This is the part of the game that really fucking gets to me and stresses me out to frankly completely unreasonable levels. It's also why, over time, I've come to prefer the more "avant-garde" games that take more liberal interpretations of the mafia ruleset. Hell, my favorite game I've ever been in was Llama's Oblique Strategies where I tried to convince the "mafia" to out themselves so that everyone could win. And it almost worked.

I'm gonna keep this simple.

1. I was gone from the site for about a year and a half. I came back about a month ago. There are a lot of new players with new strategies who I don't know, and they don't know me.

2. I learned about a strategy that I haven't really seen widely used and accepted. I didn't have a very high opinion of this strategy, and I thought it was utterly unhelpful to the civilians. Yes, maybe it worked in past games that I didn't play, but that's all anecdotal to me.

3. I made jokes about that strategy and the person who used it. They weren't, in my opinion, mean-spirited or cruel, and were more like me poking fun while communicating my opinion. If I was unreasonably elaborate with my jokes, that's because I'm the type of person who will take a dumb comic premise and run with it. Also, I was bored.

If I think something is unhelpful to the civilian cause, I'm going to say so, and I'm going to advise that we don't play into it.

Once again, I wasn't trying to say that Matt, the person, was unreasonable and shouldn't be listened to, I just thought that some of his strategies were potentially harmful to the civilian cause.

To me at least, this conversation existed outside the context of the game. Maybe it's a conversation that should be better held in a separate thread. I guess I was naive.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I like that post, INH. For the first time I see signs of earnest communication. I'll think on it while I drive home.

[insertnamehere]

moving on from defending myself to actual analysis, I wanted to categorize the people Meredith used her vote manipulation on, and see what comes out of that

bea: leetic
enrique: ???
fingersplints: leetic
lorab: BWT
serge: ???
sorsha: ???
spacedaisy: 3J

Quin implied that his vote was coerced even though he didn't miss the last vote.

And 3J and Esper both replaced in for players who did miss the last vote.

I'd like to ask both of them if their votes are preassigned today if Dom will allow me.

[insertnamehere]

I agree with others on Quin's vote being out of place, but I just don't see how it'd be advantageous for him to lie about that. I'm inclined to suspect that either Meredith has some secret power that we don't know about, or a different role forced him to vote SVS. Now, I agree that this role is unlikely to be a civilian one, simply because it seems bad form to have two outright vote manip roles assigned to the same team, but crazier things have occurred. Still, I'm not really sure that this says anything about SVS, because she's very unlikely to be lynched today. If Quin's vote was decided by a baddie vote manip, I could easily see them targeting one of their own in order to throw us off the scent.

So in summary, I can't really draw any conclusions whatsoever as far as anyone's alignment from Quin's vote, and this exercise was more or less pointless.

But I decided to post it anyway. Yay me.

[indiglo]

I'm not good at mafia.

There, there now Epi. You know good and well that you aren't good at anything. So don't let not being good at mafia get you down, champ! You're just as good at mafia as you are at everything else!

[indiglo]

I agree with others on Quin's vote being out of place, but I just don't see how it'd be advantageous for him to lie about that. I'm inclined to suspect that either Meredith has some secret power that we don't know about, or a different role forced him to vote SVS. Now, I agree that this role is unlikely to be a civilian one, simply because it seems bad form to have two outright vote manip roles assigned to the same team, but crazier things have occurred. Still, I'm not really sure that this says anything about SVS, because she's very unlikely to be lynched today. If Quin's vote was decided by a baddie vote manip, I could easily see them targeting one of their own in order to throw us off the scent.

So in summary, I can't really draw any conclusions whatsoever as far as anyone's alignment from Quin's vote, and this exercise was more or less pointless.

But I decided to post it anyway. Yay me.

I came to pretty much the same conclusion on (what I perceive to be) Quin's forced vote. I can wifom it 7 ways to Sunday and come up with a variety of disparate conclusions on what it says regarding alignment. So, for now, it'll have to be yet another thing to put in my back pocket for later.

[indiglo]

G-Man is clearly trying too hard. He's got my for now.

[Quin]

LOVE ME!