RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[Golden]

Lol at rico, epi and inh still moaning about the PoE.

The PoE is why I was able to win. It's why I killed epi (I figured Wilgy would be lynched and one of the two had to be the last mafia).

PoE is going to be much harder to use to find a serial killer, but if Jay was actually killable, it wouldn't matter... the game would have been over and the town would have won with 6 or 7 of us left out of 12. That was the PoE at work.

I figured Jay was Trump from the moment I subbed back in, given I knew Boomslang died in his place. It was confirmed when sloonei died in his place. I believe the rest of the town could have won with me if I just could have killed him! But I couldn't.

Sorry for lynching you MM.

[Golden]

At least I got this one right! It was the only way Wilgy 2.0's death made sense.

It was the only way your death made sense too. Jay did very well at never letting on for a second that he understood why these odd deaths were happening.

[Golden]

I had BTSC with Leetic/Golden and didn't see this coming at all.

Did you have it all game long?

Yep.

I guess I wasn't supposed to believe that part of my role description.

Just shows the perils of PoE to me.

Sorry inh. That was a very rough twist. If it had been the other way around and you were the sk, I would have trusted you completely and you would have won.

[Golden]

Just back luck, frankly. I was perfectly well onto Golden and only stopped when INH gave him the same treatment he received. That's not to blame INH though, perhaps his protections made him believe he had information somehow, or something else was in play. Shit happens.

Question...

If inh and I never had btsc, and therefore I was not obliged to read him as strong town, do you think you would have been on to me?

[insertnamehere]

Golden, if 3J was lynched Day 3, would you have tried to go after Epi and Rey?

[Golden]

Golden, if 3J was lynched Day 3, would you have tried to go after Epi and Rey?

Rey, Wilgy, Epi. Yep. I think I would have pushed for Wilgy first, though, but I might have been in the same position as Jay where MM actually decided who went more than I did. I still would have killed epi too.

I probably would have gone after you at that point too if I hadn't known you were town, but it's hard for me to know for sure.

[Golden]

Btw - I do get why people hate the concept of PoE, don't get me wrong. It seems very callous. And I'd never use it in a big role madness game, it wouldn't translate. It only works in a little heist game where most people are vanilla. so in that sense it really doesn't mesh with our old school STV/RM sensibilities at all.

[Ricochet]

Cool stuff, G-Man, I think it's clear how much detail and purpose you've put into the theme, the roles and the flavor - about the same kind I like to pigment my own designs, as much as possible. I wouldn't say there are any issues with a villanous third party role - in theory, anything could have happened to him, from Day 1 till endgame, it just happened to achieve a maximum potential this time. I also designed the Reaper in Triskaidekaphobia as an exiter, so I think that side of it is also cool beans, but in that case it was a benign role simply because I would have exceeded the 3-limit rule by giving it something to actually do within the game.

That being said, I do have two topics of inquiry that I sense could morph into issues:

1) if there is any actual explanation to the faux-flips we've seen in the case of the mafia team? I mean, I've read something above about baddies in disguise and plastic surgery, but... is flavor all it was to it? If so, I'd say the issue is when flavor would affect the dynamic of the game and the effects on the players. I think I remember at least one instance in which a fake mislynch reveal caused players to end up at each other's throat over it, after which the real reveal made one side emerge justified and victorious and one side looking, erm, poopy.

Of course, the kerkuffle happened to be between a civilian and a mafioso, so my case is not completely strong, since the mafia side probably faked being so berating, still, overall, I'm inclined to think lynch reveals are meant to deliver the facts straight up and particularly make the civilians face up either the successfulness or the misguided nature of their endeavour. It's clear you did not design any seemer / temp seemer / something alike, which to justify legit flip fakery, so yeah, I'd say Host shenanigans in revealing endphase results should be kept at a low.

2) Now that you've disclosed it, I confess that I find the "Leetic was submitting kills but not posting or voting, so I felt like I had to replace him." slightly questionable. Part of that is due to the fact that I don't think you designed or even alluded to the fact that not posting would eventually consistute a game offence deserving removal or replacement - maybe I've missed it, but I don't see it. Then, a preliminary question would be if you contacted leetic to ask if his method is intentional.

All in all, believe me, I'm probably the #1 inactive hater, precisely because of how they can borderline force the civ pack to have to simply remove them in order to extract a read out of them (or just leave them be and potentially suffer the consequences), but the way you phrased it, leetic was clearly not out of orbit, and it is left as interpretable if he was carrying a tactic with his inactivity or not. Which makes the replacement, at least from the deity-approach to hosting (I think Epignosis coined it?), not a clean intervention.

[insertnamehere]

So 3J getting lynched would have probably resulted in a civ win.

Just something to chew on...

[Golden]

So 3J getting lynched would have probably resulted in a civ win.

Just something to chew on...

Nah, I had to nightkill him or I went full last man standing.

[Epignosis]

I am content to act on the assumption that the serial killer killed Epignosis with the intention of removing a townie. Credit to Epignosis to looking the part (perhaps a little too well ). With this in mind, I think the kill would be less likely to come from someone who was in good standing with Epi. This would be a decent look for Golden 2.0 -- he and Epi had their disagreements, but it never took the form of Epi suspecting Golden. I might even say that from the perspective of a SK Golden, he'd have had Epi pocketed. I don't believe Epi ever cast meaningful suspicion upon Sloonei either -- just an isolated about his Day 1 CFDing.

I can't remember off-hand what Epi's take was on MM and Becquin. I'll have to look.

I was trying to defend reywaS precisely so that the serial killer would leave me alone.

Good then. So much for "I don't bus team mates".

That wasn't my intention. I wanted to spar with Scotty some and vote for him for a while, and I never expected his lynch to take off the way that it did. But he flat out contradicted himself, and I didn't feel like making up a reason to vote somebody else. His goofing up, like thinking the day had ended when there was another 24 hours, also didn't help.

But it was good fun preemptively pissing on process of elimination.

Note to self: when Epignosis can't let it go even when he has to make absurd arguments, lynch him.

See how far that policy gets you.

[DrWilgy]

Wilgy was right at one point and this is all that matters.

Thank you for the game G-Man!

[G-Man]

Cool stuff, G-Man, I think it's clear how much detail and purpose you've put into the theme, the roles and the flavor - about the same kind I like to pigment my own designs, as much as possible. I wouldn't say there are any issues with a villanous third party role - in theory, anything could have happened to him, from Day 1 till endgame, it just happened to achieve a maximum potential this time. I also designed the Reaper in Triskaidekaphobia as an exiter, so I think that side of it is also cool beans, but in that case it was a benign role simply because I would have exceeded the 3-limit rule by giving it something to actually do within the game.

That being said, I do have two topics of inquiry that I sense could morph into issues:

1) if there is any actual explanation to the faux-flips we've seen in the case of the mafia team? I mean, I've read something above about baddies in disguise and plastic surgery, but... is flavor all it was to it? If so, I'd say the issue is when flavor would affect the dynamic of the game and the effects on the players. I think I remember at least one instance in which a fake mislynch reveal caused players to end up at each other's throat over it, after which the real reveal made one side emerge justified and victorious and one side looking, erm, poopy.

Of course, the kerkuffle happened to be between a civilian and a mafioso, so my case is not completely strong, since the mafia side probably faked being so berating, still, overall, I'm inclined to think lynch reveals are meant to deliver the facts straight up and particularly make the civilians face up either the successfulness or the misguided nature of their endeavour. It's clear you did not design any seemer / temp seemer / something alike, which to justify legit flip fakery, so yeah, I'd say Host shenanigans in revealing endphase results should be kept at a low.

The faux-flips were a kind of fusion of the game thread and the narrative element. It's a bridging element that was never (to my recollection) a part of either Lostpedia or STV games, so I would say it's something I came up with on my own. Two factors contributed to this mechanic's inclusion in the game. One, in college I did theatre and one of my favorite acting decision stories is the one that just got recycled when Gene Wilder died. When he first appears as Willie Wonka, he appears cold and weak, gimping along with a cane, only to stumble and surprise everyone with a spry and happy demeanor. Gene Wilder would only take the part if he could present Wonka in this way because, if his first appearance to the audience was a lie, then the audience would never be able to take his actions at face value through the rest of the film. It's brilliant on his part and on some level, I wanted to keep you guys guessing and on the edge of your seat throughout the game so it made sense to feed you a red herring for a little while.

I knew early on, though that I had to be deliberate about the actual reveal. I didn't want to drop it all 11th hour on you guys because that impacts the game too much. While the reveals after the lynches were six or so hours removed from the lynch post, it would have only been an hour or two from the events of the lynch post in the narrative universe where this game only takes 6 days to run its course. I allowed Epi's NK reveal to run even longer because day phases are 48 hours.

The second factor was that within the narrative, Operation Cobalt operatives would never just confess that they're spies after getting kicked out of the Inner Circle. It would take time (a la Barron's interrogations) to bring out the truth. The same goes for Epi's NK. I decided that since it would take time in real life (or the narrative) to bring these shenanigans to light, then it should take time in the game thread for the truth to come out.

To be completely honest, it' probably 50% me trying to use a mechanic that I think is clever and relevant to the political thriller genre the game morphed into and 50% me trying to work around the 3-power role limit for heist games. I understand from a player's perspective that those red herrings are frustrating, especially if you have momentum going on a theory and you come to learn that you just "wasted" your time on it because of a delayed reveal. My previous games hosted on TP all contained some kind of frustrating elements that I myself would hate to have to deal with as a player. I can empathize and understand if you think it's something best left out of future games.

2) Now that you've disclosed it, I confess that I find the "Leetic was submitting kills but not posting or voting, so I felt like I had to replace him." slightly questionable. Part of that is due to the fact that I don't think you designed or even alluded to the fact that not posting would eventually consistute a game offence deserving removal or replacement - maybe I've missed it, but I don't see it. Then, a preliminary question would be if you contacted leetic to ask if his method is intentional.

All in all, believe me, I'm probably the #1 inactive hater, precisely because of how they can borderline force the civ pack to have to simply remove them in order to extract a read out of them (or just leave them be and potentially suffer the consequences), but the way you phrased it, leetic was clearly not out of orbit, and it is left as interpretable if he was carrying a tactic with his inactivity or not. Which makes the replacement, at least from the deity-approach to hosting (I think Epignosis coined it?), not a clean intervention.

Part of me wants to say I am justified in my actions because leetic hasn't posted anywhere on this site since August 28th but I recognize that I was sloppy in assembling my rules for the game. I should have put something out there explaining what could trigger an automatic replacement and I failed to do so. Because leetic was not posting or voting, I sent night PM reminders to all my power roles (I communicated with Epi/the mafia via the BTSC thread). On Night 2, I did inform him that if he did not post or vote during Day 3, I would replace him. He sent in his kill request and did not say anything about my ultimatum.

I was also prepared to replace reywaS if he survived the tied lynch though I don't know if I warned him that it might be coming. He lost the coinflip though, so it's a moot point there. I will be more specific in future games about participation standards. While I respect the existence of the P-Score system devised on this site, I have yet to really see it enforced hardcore, so I have no way to judge its effectiveness as a deterrent to low or no participation. I have a system where missing votes and not posting gets you penalty votes but I thought it would threaten the balance of an already small game like heists are supposed to be. I don't know what the answer is to the low and no participation issue.

One problem I know I had was that I rushed the game into action with zero prospective replacements in queue. That was dangerous and it bit me. I had to resurrect dead players back into the game and we all know that doing so sucks for baddies who work hard to get rid of particular players for one reason or another.

I believe that I would have pressed a vanilla inactive much in the same way as I did leetic because, especially in heist games, inactivity can be a game-changer. I tried hard not to be too meddlesome as a host. I did that in a game I hosted long ago, coaxing a baddie role to use a power and it helped expose them and may have helped bring down the entire team as a result. It's a constant battle to carry all the excitement of being the omniscient host with nobody to share it all with.

Thanks for the input! I have to agree in part to both of your points. I certainly did venture into a grey area with this game. Next time I will strive to be more clear-cut.

[Quin]

This was one of the most stressful games I've ever played, but it was also one of the most fun. I felt out of my element.

Congrats Golden 2.0!!

[Ricochet]

Lol at rico, epi and inh still moaning about the PoE.

The PoE is why I was able to win. It's why I killed epi (I figured Wilgy would be lynched and one of the two had to be the last mafia).

PoE is going to be much harder to use to find a serial killer, but if Jay was actually killable, it wouldn't matter... the game would have been over and the town would have won with 6 or 7 of us left out of 12. That was the PoE at work.

I figured Jay was Trump from the moment I subbed back in, given I knew Boomslang died in his place. It was confirmed when sloonei died in his place. I believe the rest of the town could have won with me if I just could have killed him! But I couldn't.

Sorry for lynching you MM.

I was planning to drop snark on the basis of the first two paragraphs - noice first person use in the second btw > "PoE is a town weapon with which I, non-town individual, managed to win"; u-huh - but then I reflected more on the latter three ones. It seems there was a valid combo-win scenario available, which in hindsight also nuances just what kind of a "serial killer" the role was - town usually needs it removed to achieve peace, so to speak, plus this role was primarly a wincon grabber, allowing it to flee upon achieving said wincon. Did the Host anticipate this third potential outcome? Not confirmed. I don't remember Epignosis having been on your PoE, but I didn't really checked on any updates since Cycle 2. I acknowledge that you ended up taking care of the remaining Mafia before one last attempt to achieve your independent win con. PoE at work? Not sure how a hunt method can be validated when you apply it via kills, based on powers only you have, but whatevs. Did this make you an incidental town vigi, for a sec? Who knows. What isn't changed by any of these factors is how, during the last phase, you shifted this use of civ weapon to misguide and serve your win. This is not validation. It's clear cut proof of its corruptibility.

[Marmot]

This isn't the first time Golden died early on and subbed back into the game for a baddie role to give us all a thorough licking...

[Marmot]

Lol at rico, epi and inh still moaning about the PoE.

The PoE is why I was able to win. It's why I killed epi (I figured Wilgy would be lynched and one of the two had to be the last mafia).

PoE is going to be much harder to use to find a serial killer, but if Jay was actually killable, it wouldn't matter... the game would have been over and the town would have won with 6 or 7 of us left out of 12. That was the PoE at work.

I figured Jay was Trump from the moment I subbed back in, given I knew Boomslang died in his place. It was confirmed when sloonei died in his place. I believe the rest of the town could have won with me if I just could have killed him! But I couldn't.

Sorry for lynching you MM.

You had to do what you had to do. In hindsight, there was nothing I could have done on Day 5 to change my fate (that I know of). You guys all had some insight as to how the game worked while I was the only one completely in the dark.

I don't blame inh in the slightest though. Matt pulled the a similar stunt on me in the GoC.

[Golden]

It is inherently corrupted by invisible uncommon power roles to be sure, but the reason I was able to do it was only by forcing mm and Jay into reaching mechanical conclusions that were wrong. As Jay said earlier, it's silly to expect it to be utterly infallible. Where it's benefit lies, is in coming as a town to collective town read conclusions that enable you to narrow the field.

what my power was in this case wasn't important - what is important is not lynching outside of the poe. It's true you might clear baddies, it's not infallible. But what it is, is something that increases town win percentage overall in these types of games.

If I was to put it another way, it would be this... It's about not pursuing a tinfoil read in a situation where you can accept there are good logical reasons for others to read them as town, running with consensus town reads and lynching people who don't have that, even if the suspicion isn't active.

[Golden]

In hindsight, there was nothing I could have done on Day 5 to change my fate (that I know of).

Well, I was legitimately trying to lynch the person that I thought there was the best case against, and at times I felt that was Jay. It's always easier for me to play these situations if I forget I'm the bad guy and imagine I'm hunting for real. At times, I thought Jay might end up being my vote, but in the end the arguments against him being bad were stronger.

[Ricochet]

Won't requote the whole thing, but all clear, G-Man, thanks for going over those points. (y)

[Golden]

Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There was no way for me to know that my being killed would allow for a combined win. It's a bastard game in that regard because it meantthat I was harming my own win chance just by using my role. I'd have never used it on Night 4 if I'd known. I used it because it stood a chance of eliminating a suspect (it did with Sloonei).

Town didn't lose this game because of "PoE". INH was never going to realize his game-long BTSC partner was not on his team. There's nothing he can do about that, and the game effect was evident.

This is not to gripe about the setup. It made for a fun twist and that suits the narrative. It's not to take away from Golden either. I'd definitely prefer he win in that role than a guy with 3 posts. Usually when town loses though I feel it's the result of a town failure. This time I don't. Just the way it goes.

[Ricochet]

It is inherently corrupted by invisible uncommon power roles to be sure,

No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"? Least to speak of baddies themselves. It's not rocket science, really. "Hey guys let's gather our reads into PoE"... said the wolf. It wasn't the case, this game. It'll be one day.

but the reason I was able to do it was only by forcing mm and Jay into reaching mechanical conclusions that were wrong. As Jay said earlier, it's silly to expect it to be utterly infallible.

Didn't follow D5 in depth. Justification of the method doesn't influence the point made, though.

Where it's benefit lies, is in coming as a town to collective town read conclusions that enable you to narrow the field.

Ok this is the part where I'll bring to attention that your idea of "coming as a town to collection town" was to 1) simply agree with Sloonei about the charges brought towards Scotty on Day 1, then 2) simply state that "you agree with Jay's PoE", hence it becoming your PoE. Sure, you elaborated once inquired, but as far as I recall, this was the basic gist of your first two phases. You call it "coming as a town to collectiveness", but it was really borderline wagoning. And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt. Sit back down at the table and compare notes. I gave the example straight away back then: Boomslang's death being a relief for you (since PoE) wasn't the same relief for me (since no suspicions on him, plus town deficit created: one lynch, two deaths). There was nothing remotely "collective" in this death, for instance, being treated as good PoE reduction.

what my power was in this case wasn't important - what is important is not lynching outside of the poe. It's true you might clear baddies, it's not infallible. But what it is, is something that increases town win percentage overall in these types of games.

So far, it's zero percent. Only way is up, though, so that's good.

If I was to put it another way, it would be this... It's about not pursuing a tinfoil read in a situation where you can accept there are good logical reasons for others to read them as town

Epignosis would have been a good instance to tinfoil. Of course, I'm not going to pretend I tinfoiled him at any point. His vote move looked real clean. Besides, I never implied tinfoil being the path towards light at any point; it's just a look at what might be. Also, good logical reasons to read them as town? Cool. Let's do good logical reasons for mafia, as well, then. "I suspect X because I have nothing with which to townread him - and that happens to be 60% of my must-be-bad category?"... *tommy lee stare*

running with consensus town reads

run run run awaaaaa- oh wait what is consensus? From two people? Uhm.

and lynching people who don't have that, even if the suspicion isn't active.

Witchhunt. Doesn't sound too kosher.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Yes, it is possible for a PoE to be corrupted by a bad guy. Nobody denied that.

Until I am shown a single town strategy that isn't susceptible to making a bad read, I don't care. Nothing is perfect. If people don't prefer the strategy, that's fine. To dismiss the strategy entirely and beg to be nightkilled because other people are using it is something else.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And the strategy is not at 0% on The Syndicate. It's been used a ton, just not under the term "PoE".

[Ricochet]

Town didn't lose this game because of "PoE". INH was never going to realize his game-long BTSC partner was not on his team. There's nothing he can do about that, and the game effect was evident.

The point was never that the loss was caused by PoE. Such a conclusion was not reached, due to third party handling the last mafia member.

As for INH, whilst this is in no way an implication regarding what he could have done, I'm noticing that, if he received his role card the way it's written in post-game, there isn't a mention that he has BTSC. Lover role cards usually go both ways.

And the strategy is not at 0% on The Syndicate. It's been used a ton, just not under the term "PoE".

I didn't say 0% on Syndicate.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's not 0% in any subforum either.

[Marmot]

Question about the town win condition. What is it and did we achieve it?

[Marmot]

Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)

According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.

[Golden]

Look, Rico, I'm not here to sell you a bill of goods. The PoE strategy is proven over thousands of games from other mafia cultures, and it worked here perfectly.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your game style, and I doubt I'll play more heist games because they aren't really my jam, so do whatever you want with it.

[Golden]

Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)

According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.

But only to be the last man standing.

[Golden]

Lover role cards usually go both ways.

I think he noticed from the fact we had a btsc thread.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead.

[Marmot]

Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)

According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.

But only to be the last man standing.

Never mind, I read the posts out of order.

Curse you and killing your BTSC mate.

[Golden]

No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"?

Unless the setup is open, all roles are invisible. I've never seen someone have 'civilian btsc' with a SK before, so that's very uncommon.

I won this game by getting myself mechanically cleared by inh because he thought he had btsc with a civilian. I mean, really, what is anyone going to do with that? It's not me corrupting a system through my wiles - it's the fact I got a role that no-one could predict.

The further you get from fully closed role madness, the more effective PoE becomes.

[Marmot]

Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead.

I'll take solace in the fact that I actually caught a baddie there.

Anyway, great games all around. Thanks for being a good sport Jay and pouring your heart into it yet again. Thanks Golden for killing Epignosis (that was yuuge). Sorry Quin for wrongly lynching you twice in this game. I think this is our first game together, so I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Thanks for the game G-Man. I do think this game was a tough one for the civilians, bu we certainly could have done it, and I think we performed better than the average group of players would have done.

[Golden]

Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)

According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.

But only to be the last man standing.

Never mind, I read the posts out of order.

Curse you and killing your BTSC mate.

I had to - INH would target Jay that night (so Jay would have survived) and in any event I targetted Jay the night before, and couldn't double target.

[Marmot]

No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"?

Unless the setup is open, all roles are invisible. I've never seen someone have 'civilian btsc' with a SK before, so that's very uncommon.

I won this game by getting myself mechanically cleared by inh because he thought he had btsc with a civilian. I mean, really, what is anyone going to do with that? It's not me corrupting a system through my wiles - it's the fact I got a role that no-one could predict.

The further you get from fully closed role madness, the more effective PoE becomes.

Another question for inh. With leetic never posting in the game thread but sending in the kills, did he also never show up to the chatroom? What went on in that Day 2 - Day 3 phased where he kinda disappeared?

[Golden]

He posted twice in our thread. One post says 'hello'. The other one says he is starting school tomorrow but will try to be active.

[Ricochet]

It's not 0% in any subforum either.

I consider to have played a town game with PoE strategy for the first time. If it shared similarities with previous occasions and strategies, it must have not been delivered back then like a preach of the Commandments from the top of the Mount Mafia Universe.

Question about the town win condition. What is it and did we achieve it?

Yeah, man, we've won the game, can't you tell?

Lover role cards usually go both ways.

I think he noticed from the fact we had a btsc thread.

No, we're talking role cards here. If there's a "Julianna, you and Dave have BTSC" card, there should be a "Dave, you and Julianna have BTSC" one.

[Ricochet]

Look, Rico, I'm not here to sell you a bill of goods. The PoE strategy is proven over thousands of games from other mafia cultures, and it worked here perfectly.

You were doing so well until you drove it back to square one with the underlined. The operation was successful, the patient is dead.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Rico, you and Marmot won Talking Heads with me by cooperatively using process of elimination to arrive at Diiny and Russ at the end.

[Golden]

And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt.

By the way, lets be clear. I think this, not PoE, is at the heart of what's going on here. You got enraged with me, and you spent the rest of the game not really playing because you were mad at me. There was far too much anger going on in this game. Mafia is not a good place for anger.

If you have a problem with me, there are ways to address that.

[Ricochet]

Rico, you and Marmot won Talking Heads with me by cooperatively using process of elimination to arrive at Diiny and Russ at the end.

Except I achieved literal process of elimination due to my cop reads (and even so, testing them out - sacrificing motel room in a lynch to confirm MM's role - since there was a chance they could have been doctored), achieved after 11 cycles of gaming and still needing to put a monumental fight to firstly convince you of the theory on MM, then convincing the both of you to stick to the plan whilst those two were biting back. I don't deny it was total cooperation reached to vanquish the opposing forces left, but it was as asiduous and strongly debated coming to consensus as any mafia game deserves to contain.

If that's the same as "hey Jay what's your five? I can run with that. PoE, everyone!" then kill me now.

And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt.

By the way, lets be clear. I think this, not PoE, is at the heart of what's going on here. You got enraged with me, and you spent the rest of the game not really playing because you were mad at me. There was far too much anger going on in this game. Mafia is not a good place for anger.

If you have a problem with me, there are ways to address that.

You're wrong in assessing that. I used the word "enraging" for the effect a method had, when voiced in a highly principled manner to emphasize previous methods that were, imo, much more shallow.

If there's anything that crashed my game into abandon, it must have been the four hours in which it devolved into "why vigi kills are good" and "why PoE is the way to go". I basically ended up doing the same thing Epig did, later on (although, again, he was Mafia, so, who knows, possible fakery). Was he actually angery when he said "ok you tell me where to vote and I'll just do that from now on"?

[Golden]

Nah, epi is epi. I know what I'm going to get from him. I don't believe he gets angry in mafia, and I believe you can always trust that what's in the game is in the game for epi.

I'm glad I'm interpreting it wrong. I've never seen the kind of thing from you where you sort of stopped playing, though, and maybe I interpreted that wrong too, and that frustrated me because it didn't bother me in the slightest if you didn't use or like PoE (as I tried to make clear multiple times), it bothered me much more that you would stop playing because I was using it. It felt like it was because you were mad at me, so I'm glad it's not that. I don't ever want you to stop trying hard on my account, because you are too much of an asset to do that.

[G-Man]

Catching up on all the posts. One thing I want to make clear is that Jeb was not compatible with the civvies. Had JJJ been NK'd by Jeb, he would leave the game. If this happens when the mafia is still alive, Jeb gets a win and leaves the game. Then the rest of the civvies still have to eliminate the baddies.

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss. Jeb either takes Trump out himself or he takes everyone else out to be the LMS. Even if the mafia is eliminated, the civvies need to get rid of Jeb to win.

Let me explain it this way- the civvies were tasked with eliminating all threats to Trump's campaign. They can't win with Jeb because he is a threat to the campaign. I couldn't spell it out for you guys because the closed setup required me to keep killing faction information from you. If that devolved into a grey area, then I guess that's just my fault as the host. It was always civvies-v-mafia-v-sk. Had Trump been lynched, Jeb could have accomplished his mission in the narrative had he made it as LMS.

[Golden]

If that's the same as "hey Jay what's your five? I can run with that. PoE, everyone!" then kill me now.

I had my PoE before Jay stated his. They happened to align. I don't need to debate what I already agree with. Jay and I were remarkably in sync in this game, while I was town. Others who weren't against the PoE in principle also seemed to have very similar lists.

So, I mean, apologies for not taking your views, or inhs views, so much but I can't easily figure out what to do with opinions that consider the entire approach invalid. I don't think you and I have ever been able to get in to the others head very easily, so it's much harder for me to know what to do with your perspective. You weren't giving anyone a town read at all, so... I don't know what to do with that.

One thing to recognise about the PoE is its a 'for today' thing each time. So you aren't looking for ironclad reasons to remove someone from any possibility of being bad. You are trying to find reasons to see them as more likely town than not and town enough that at least 'they should not be lynched today'.

[Golden]

Catching up on all the posts. One thing I want to make clear is that Jeb was not compatible with the civvies. Had JJJ been NK'd by Jeb, he would leave the game. If this happens when the mafia is still alive, Jeb gets a win and leaves the game. Then the rest of the civvies still have to eliminate the baddies.

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss. Jeb either takes Trump out himself or he takes everyone else out to be the LMS. Even if the mafia is eliminated, the civvies need to get rid of Jeb to win.

Let me explain it this way- the civvies were tasked with eliminating all threats to Trump's campaign. They can't win with Jeb because he is a threat to the campaign. I couldn't spell it out for you guys because the closed setup required me to keep killing faction information from you. If that devolved into a grey area, then I guess that's just my fault as the host. It was always civvies-v-mafia-v-sk. Had Trump been lynched, Jeb could have accomplished his mission in the narrative had he made it as LMS.

So, if I had NKed Jay when Sloonei died, I would have won, and then left the game, and with no baddies left, the townies would have automatically won?

[Golden]

If so then ironically, the town could have won if they'd just stuck with sloonei instead of that CFD on to Quin I wasn't around for.

[Ricochet]

Catching up on all the posts. One thing I want to make clear is that Jeb was not compatible with the civvies. Had JJJ been NK'd by Jeb, he would leave the game. If this happens when the mafia is still alive, Jeb gets a win and leaves the game. Then the rest of the civvies still have to eliminate the baddies.

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss. Jeb either takes Trump out himself or he takes everyone else out to be the LMS. Even if the mafia is eliminated, the civvies need to get rid of Jeb to win.

Let me explain it this way- the civvies were tasked with eliminating all threats to Trump's campaign. They can't win with Jeb because he is a threat to the campaign. I couldn't spell it out for you guys because the closed setup required me to keep killing faction information from you. If that devolved into a grey area, then I guess that's just my fault as the host. It was always civvies-v-mafia-v-sk. Had Trump been lynched, Jeb could have accomplished his mission in the narrative had he made it as LMS.

So, if I had NKed Jay when Sloonei died, I would have won, and then left the game, and with no baddies left, the townies would have automatically won?

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss.